Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

The turn you spend on using rest also counts. Let me visualize it.

Turn 1: Zygarde Rests, Clefable attacks
Turn 2: Sleep turn 1, Clefable attacks
Turn 3: Sleep Turn 2, Clefable attacks, Zygarde dies.

So no, Rest in the long term will not allow you to beat Clefable one on one unless the Clefable is paralyzed before by another source. A standard Clefable will handle this set.
Was referring to specifically when Clef uses Soft-Boiled as you Rest but I’m now realizing that without Sleep Talk you have no chance of doing damage while asleep and therefore Clef does beat this

i feel dumb now but thank you for pointing this out
 
Huh... Rest are 3 turns, not 2. So, let's suppose Zygarde predicts Clef use Soft and uses Rest. Clef then hits Zygarde 2 times while it sleeps. The next turn Zygarde has 2 options: attack or sleep again. If it attacks, Clefable likely lives and Zygarde dies. If it sleeps, Clefable hits 3 times and Zygarde dies without damaging it.
Hmm.. I definitely remember PP stalling out Clefable at least once before. Probably was due to lucky damage rolls from when I used to run max special bulk for Lando-I.

While PP-stalling out Moonblast does happen once every now and then, especially with max SpD variants, most matchups against Clefable ends up with Zygarde on the offense instead. Zygarde gets 1 DD on the Softboiled, 1 DD on the Moonblast and trades Thousand Waves PP for Softboiled. Eventually, Zygarde gets enough HP from lefties to get a 3rd & 4th DD and overwhelms Clef that way.

Personally for me tho, most of the time I just trap Clef, scout for status moves, and switch out to for Volcarona for a free QD without fearing a double switch.
 
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SupremeFashion

Banned deucer.
Zygarde-10% has been incredible in this meta. It's without a doubt one of the strongest new Pokemon that are returning. Although normal Zygarde has it's own niche uses (especially using status moves like a wiener) it's clearly overshadowed by 10%.

The biggest reason is that Zygarde-10% has the speed to keep up with some of the threats we are seeing more commonly recently, and although it's bulk leaves a lot to be desired, if you PROPERLY advocate some EVs to the defensive side of 10%, it can live the priority attacks most notable sucker punch.

Now don't get me wrong, I think normal Zygarde has it's own place in the metagame, but Zygarde 10% is criminally underrated for how much it can do against the tons of strong, mid-speed threats we see nowadays, such as the Nidos, the Galarian Birds, Heatran, etc.

In this meta more than ever, it's valuable to bring in 10%, get a kill or two, switch it out and then bring it in during the end game to finish off the remaining Pokemon on the opposing side.
 
Zygarde-10% has been incredible in this meta. It's without a doubt one of the strongest new Pokemon that are returning. Although normal Zygarde has it's own niche uses (especially using status moves like a wiener) it's clearly overshadowed by 10%.
Now don't get me wrong, I think normal Zygarde has it's own place in the metagame, but Zygarde 10% is criminally underrated for how much it can do against the tons of strong, mid-speed threats we see nowadays, such as the Nidos, the Galarian Birds, Heatran, etc.
Fascinating how Zygarde-10% clearly overshadows Zygarde-50% and is at the same time criminally underrated.

Zygarde-50% is clearly the better pick, and I would go as far as to say that there is no reason to use the Dog over the Snake in the current metagame. The Snake is a splashable pick because of its exceptional bulk and defensive typing (and Thousand Arrows). With the right set, it can set up and beat even many of its usual checks. The Dog, on the other hand, has no bulk to speak of, and its only advantage over the Snake is its 115 base speed. Its lack of bulk means it loses even harder to the Snake's counters. If it was considerably stronger it might be preferable, but at +1, it doesn't OHKO no-bulk Dragapult after Stealth Rock, and 115 Speed just isn't that fast anymore to begin with.

In your post, you mentioned properly allocating EVs to Zydog's defenses to allow it to live priority. With the Snake, investing in defenses is preferable to investing in attack in most cases, because it is so bulky that investment allows it to set up on virtually anything it wants. The Dog, however has the bulk of an NFE and gets no use from Eviolite. Investing in defense makes it either slower (giving it less of a niche over the Snake) or makes its already lackluster attack even weaker. Either way, you're better off using the snake.

The dog will be a niche pick in OU if Zygarde-50% gets banned, but otherwise it will probably remain RU for the duration.
 

SupremeFashion

Banned deucer.
Fascinating how Zygarde-10% clearly overshadows Zygarde-50% and is at the same time criminally underrated.

Zygarde-50% is clearly the better pick, and I would go as far as to say that there is no reason to use the Dog over the Snake in the current metagame. The Snake is a splashable pick because of its exceptional bulk and defensive typing (and Thousand Arrows). With the right set, it can set up and beat even many of its usual checks. The Dog, on the other hand, has no bulk to speak of, and its only advantage over the Snake is its 115 base speed. Its lack of bulk means it loses even harder to the Snake's counters. If it was considerably stronger it might be preferable, but at +1, it doesn't OHKO no-bulk Dragapult after Stealth Rock, and 115 Speed just isn't that fast anymore to begin with.

In your post, you mentioned properly allocating EVs to Zydog's defenses to allow it to live priority. With the Snake, investing in defenses is preferable to investing in attack in most cases, because it is so bulky that investment allows it to set up on virtually anything it wants. The Dog, however has the bulk of an NFE and gets no use from Eviolite. Investing in defense makes it either slower (giving it less of a niche over the Snake) or makes its already lackluster attack even weaker. Either way, you're better off using the snake.

The dog will be a niche pick in OU if Zygarde-50% gets banned, but otherwise it will probably remain RU for the duration.
You're right in theory but wrong in execution. Although Zygarde normal has the bulk to take hits, and it is a very strong Pokemon, AND it fits on teams more easily than 10%, it does not make it a better Pokemon.

let's not brush over the 115 Speed here. We are entering a meta where, yes, there are a ton of pokemon faster than 10% but there are also many hard hitters that are bulky (i mentioned these in my original post) that are gaining in popularity.

The key strength of Zygarde 10% is that it can be used as both a breaker, and a clean-up Pokemon at different stages of the game. Like you mentioned, the biggest challenge is 10%'s lack of bulk, but smart EV investment as well as even smarter play (may be tough for you) allows it to become a massive threat. Zygarde normal can switch in and take hits, Zygarde 10% can switch in and GIVE hits, which is far more important in this meta.
 
Zygarde-10% has been incredible in this meta. It's without a doubt one of the strongest new Pokemon that are returning. Although normal Zygarde has it's own niche uses (especially using status moves like a wiener) it's clearly overshadowed by 10%.

The biggest reason is that Zygarde-10% has the speed to keep up with some of the threats we are seeing more commonly recently, and although it's bulk leaves a lot to be desired, if you PROPERLY advocate some EVs to the defensive side of 10%, it can live the priority attacks most notable sucker punch.

Now don't get me wrong, I think normal Zygarde has it's own place in the metagame, but Zygarde 10% is criminally underrated for how much it can do against the tons of strong, mid-speed threats we see nowadays, such as the Nidos, the Galarian Birds, Heatran, etc.

In this meta more than ever, it's valuable to bring in 10%, get a kill or two, switch it out and then bring it in during the end game to finish off the remaining Pokemon on the opposing side.
Too bad zydog is completely out classed in almost every way by garchomp. Thousand arrows is great, but chomp hits so much harder that losing all of 50%'s massive bulk really makes it hard to justify running zydog over either of them on most teams.
 
The reason that Zygarde-50% is so good is because it makes progress. Whatever happens, when the Snake comes in, something is at the very least getting paralyzed, and every time it comes in it threatens a sweep. Zydog doesn't even threaten to get a kill when it comes in.
Observe: 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 201-237 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. This is uninvested Zapdos-Galar. Let's game this out for a second. I have in my Gapdos, and somehow you get in Zygarde-10% versus me. If you doubled or pivoted it in, I'm just going to OHKO it. If you got it in after Gapdos already got a kill, I just switch out into my Zygarde answer, which will force the dog out (This is also assuming that Gapdos isn't scarfed, in which case Zydog doesn't even force it out). Congratulations, you just made no progress. You either lost your Zygarde or wasted a Thousand Arrows PP. If anything, that's negative progress, because it's good for me.

Let's envision the same scenario but with the Snake. I'm not going to bring the Snake in on attack, because I want to keep it healthy so it can sweep. So let's say I bring the Snake in in front of a Gapdos. If it's banded, they want to switch out because Coil Zygarde beats it 1v1 depending on the set, and it doesn't KO me, so even if I'm using another set can just go for Glare and paralyze it, neutering one of their important breakers. If it's scarf, it doesn't even 2HKO, meaning the Snake is gonna glare it and set up. In any case, something is getting paralyzed, and the Snake is probably getting a boost. If they switch out to their Zygarde answer, it's even better for me because I can get status off on it and I'm getting Leftovers recovery.

To compare: in scenario one, versus a mon you said Zydog beats, it makes essentially negative progress. In scenario two, versus the same mon, the Snake is getting a para and can potentially win the game right there depending on the rest of their team.

Finally, to briefly address some of your other points, what exactly is it breaking? It might KO Nidoqueen or something, but usually a breaker means something that can actually beat a bulky mon. Currently, one of the best defensive cores is BlissBro: Slowbro + Blissey. Vs BlissBro, the Snake paralyzes Slowbro and wins once it's gone. Vs BlissBro, the dog has about a 60/40 shot of 2HKOing Blissey. It's not going to do anything to Slowbro.

There's a reason that Zygarde-10% is NUBL and the Snake was almost quickbanned (and it isn't because people who think the Snake is better are bad players).
 
You're right in theory but wrong in execution. Although Zygarde normal has the bulk to take hits, and it is a very strong Pokemon, AND it fits on teams more easily than 10%, it does not make it a better Pokemon.

let's not brush over the 115 Speed here. We are entering a meta where, yes, there are a ton of pokemon faster than 10% but there are also many hard hitters that are bulky (i mentioned these in my original post) that are gaining in popularity.

The key strength of Zygarde 10% is that it can be used as both a breaker, and a clean-up Pokemon at different stages of the game. Like you mentioned, the biggest challenge is 10%'s lack of bulk, but smart EV investment as well as even smarter play (may be tough for you) allows it to become a massive threat. Zygarde normal can switch in and take hits, Zygarde 10% can switch in and GIVE hits, which is far more important in this meta.
Actually, that does make it a better Pokemon. The meta is rife with very strong, and in some cases very fast attackers, all of which can OHKO Zydog, or, if they don't outspeed, more than likely take a hit and KO back. Both Zygardes only have base 100 attack; meaning that they absolutely must either set up or carry a Choice Band to be effective. This is where Zydog's niche is found: A Choice Band breaker/cleaner. However, Zygarde (imma just call snake Zygarde) is much more versatile. It can run a similar Choice Band set, or it can run a setup set. Coil/Dragon Dance, Substitute, Thousand Arrows, and Glare/Toxic is the set (with many other viable options as well in some cases!). Zygarde slowly becomes an incredible threat via setup, but it can cripple and wear down checks very well until it can just outright end games. Its bulk is an enabler for this; the main draw of Zydog's better speed is hardly relevant in the end as Zygarde handles everything Zydog does just as well with the right set, but with much more room for error in play and constant progress anyway. Whenever I build teams, I often throw Zygarde on there simply because it's just so splashable and great. I rarely find that Zydog provides extra value to teams, because the offensive teams you build have better options for speed control, while the bulky teams appreciate Zygarde's superior bulk.
TLDR Zydog bad Zygarde good
 
Zydog is so much worse than zygarde snake lol, bulk is so much underrated here, the bulk is one of the biggest reasons why most megas are better than their normal counterparts for example.

Zydog is also fairly weak for a pokemon with paper bulk, we are not talking about a pheromosa's clone.
Yes thousand arrows is pretty spammable but that's it about this mon, zygarde 50% is way more threatening and versatile thanks to its bulk.
 

Kyo

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I haven't really seen anyone talk about Reuniclus much and I feel like gen 8 has been great to it. Pursuit being snapped out of the game is incredible because dual dance sets (and the set below) are no longer complete fodder in matchups where a tyranitar or even weavile are present. Additionally, almost all toxapex are now running phys def spreads which helps Reuni a lot in cm haze wars. I'm just going to put this set out there.

Reuniclus @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Magic Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Recover
- Calm Mind
- Trick

Yea so reuni got stored power this gen and it's kind of amazing. Imo definitely better than the psyshock set since it allows you to win cm wars more easily by building up power very quickly and also beat unaware mons. One of the major downsides of stored power mons (seen in gen 7 with mega latias) was that haze pex would completely wall you.
+1 0 SpA Reuniclus Stored Power (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 174-206 (57.2 - 67.7%)
As you can see, pex has a much harder time winning this interaction with a phys def set. It should be noted that black sludge pex will still beat stored power reuni 1v1 because stored power only has 16 pp (same as pex's recover) and pex is netting 12% black sludge recovery between when you can get a boosted stored power off so reuni can't really make progress. To remedy this, I started using trick sticky barb reuni which not only guarantees you will beat phys def pex 1v1 but also allows you to beat the rare sp def pex.

Other advantages of this set include severly crippling mandibuzz via sticky barb and removing its boots. Mandi is probably the most relevant dark type in the tier right now and giving it a barb and rocks weakness not only helps reuni beat it long term but is also great for teammates like spectrier or pult. The tyranitar interaction goes about the same. It can't trap you with pursuit and unlike mandi it has no recovery so it will be unable to check reuni over the course of a longer game. The last dark type in OU is urshifu and this is probably the one that this reuni set matches up the worst with. Potentially receiving a choice item on a trick is pretty bad for reuni so I recommend using this set on a fat team with something like helmet tspikes pex to more effectively chip urshifu.

This reuniclus is a great wincon vs fat and balance teams. The HO matchup is worse because reuni is likely to get overwhelmed by strong physical attackers but it still puts in some amount of work by giving a crippling item to something on the opponents team. Trick can't really be blocked since there are no z moves or mega stones in gen 8. Other notable downsides of this set vs a psyshock/stored power + focus blast set are that you can't easily beat melmetal or taunt tran and are also prone to being pp stalled by corviknight so keep that in mind. Anyway sorry for the wall of text, feel free to try this out and let me know what you think.
 
The metagame currently feels faster yet also bulkier with many sweepers such as Kyurem-B, Zygarde, Landorus-T running amok.

With so many dragons and grounds around, I am finding a fair bit of success with bulky waters once again. In particular, Swampert, Milotic and Tapu Fini.

Tapu Fini - Fini’s new standard is the calm mind and taunt set coupled with draining kiss and surf/scald. Fini’s natural bulk + typing allows her to come in on quite a number of things and it shuts down quite a lot of defensive mons as well and becomes threatening quite quickly.

Swampert - we all know what Swampert does in this metagame. Setting up rocks and maintaining momentum via flip turn. Very bulky and hard to kill though its lack of reliable recovery holds it back. But otherwise, it does what it needs to do well.

Milotic - a fringe OU option but I still find great success with the flame orb set, using scald/ice beam/haze/recover. It’s crazy how Milotic has remained pretty much unchanged over 15 years but its standard set can still be relevant. Flame orb triggers marvel scale and allows Milotic to take on garchomp, pheromosa, landó-t, melmetal and zygarde very well. Zygarde can’t even glare Milotic if a burn has already been activated. We all know what ice beam and haze does. Haze also enables Milotic to nullify cosmic powers and calm minds. Scald burns are still wonderful in this metagame. A niche pick but its bulk has helped a lot in this metagame and it is surprisingly hard to take down.
 
I genuinely don't understand how landorus-i got quickbanned with no input from the playerbase, while the council just lets Zygarde, KB and Phero run around ou and ignores everyone's complaints about them. It's like the council genuinely does not care one fucking bit right now, it's absurd. They need to understand why so many people don't play ou anymore. it's not fun, and this is exactly why. They do not understand the state of play whatsoever. It doesn't take a top 10 ou player to see that the council is incapable of making decisions that actually benefit the game.
 
I genuinely don't understand how landorus-i got quickbanned with no input from the playerbase, while the council just lets Zygarde, KB and Phero run around ou and ignores everyone's complaints about them. It's like the council genuinely does not care one fucking bit right now, it's absurd. They need to understand why so many people don't play ou anymore. it's not fun, and this is exactly why. They do not understand the state of play whatsoever. It doesn't take a top 10 ou player to see that the council is incapable of making decisions that actually benefit the game.
Iirc everyone complained about Landorus-Incarnate though. What makes you say the community had no input on it? Just on the OU chatroom I see at least 10 people saying "Ban Lando-I" along with Ban Zyg and Ban KyuB people. Mosa less so but still.
 

Finchinator

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Pardon me if I’m incorrect but according to the Landorus- I announcement about getting banned it says that the metagame survey was going to be sent out that week, so does this mean it’s already out? Should we expect some sort of results by next week?
We decided to ban Landorus-I first as we were unanimous and we are currently working on the survey now that things are settling a bit. In the future, questions like these can be put in the SQSA or even PMd to the council. I am not saying it was wrong of you to post it here though as I know these things are confusing and if you have any other future questions, never hesitate to reach out as I would be glad to help.

--

Let's play a fun game. I'll quote the uninformed opinion and then I'll respond with the reality of the situation...go!
I genuinely don't understand how landorus-i got quickbanned
I genuinely don't understand how someone can question Landorus-I getting quickbanned.

with no input from the playerbase,
The playerbase provided massive amounts of input (and support) in places like this exact metagame discussion thread we are posting in and the council was unanimous themselves.

while the council just lets Zygarde, KB and Phero run around ou and ignores everyone's complaints about them.
The council letting Zygarde, Kyurem-Black, and Pheromosa "run free" with a playerbase survey in the works, each of them being less unanimous throughout the community than Landorus, and plenty of time to act on them in a more calculated fashion after a hardly precedented double quickban followed by another quickban makes all of the sense in the world and people asking for more bans in succession do not have a realistic grasp on how tiering works.

It's like the council genuinely does not care one fucking bit right now, it's absurd.
It's like the council genuinely cares about the tier and is going out of their way to find the input of people before proceeding any further. The evel of transparency is absurd.

They need to understand why so many people don't play ou anymore. it's not fun, and this is exactly why.
Tens of thousands of people play OU each month and so many of them are super excited about all of the new toys in the metgame. It's pretty fun.

They do not understand the state of play whatsoever. It doesn't take a top 10 ou player to see that the council is incapable of making decisions that actually benefit the game.
Ignorant posters do not understand the state of play whatsoever and it doesn't take a top 10 ou player to see that people who sling baseless accusations at people in thankless positions actually does not benefit the game or community.

What a fun game, let's play again sometime.
 
I need to call my psychiatrist after reading the last page of this thread. Anyway, anyone experimented with Nihilego in this metagame? Meteor Beam + Power Herb seems to give it just enough power to be relevant, though I can't tell if it's heatah or just bad. Could have some relevance as a suicide dual hazard lead. With the sharp offensive turn the metagame took after DLC2 I don't think dedicated leads are all THAT bad. Coverage looks just a bit wonky for a Scarf set and imo it's not really got the Stat spread or movepool for a Specs set.
 
I run suicide Mew as a lead. Takes out the guesswork, just click Mew at the beginning of the game. I hover around the upper 1300s. Nothing special but whatever.

Apparently, looking at the 1825 stats, most top players run Misty Explosion over regular Explosion. It's weird since even a super effective hit is still worse than regular Explosion.
 
I run suicide Mew as a lead. Takes out the guesswork, just click Mew at the beginning of the game. I hover around the upper 1300s. Nothing special but whatever.

Apparently, looking at the 1825 stats, most top players run Misty Explosion over regular Explosion. It's weird since even a super effective hit is still worse than regular Explosion.
Probably to reset the terrain?
 
I run suicide Mew as a lead. Takes out the guesswork, just click Mew at the beginning of the game. I hover around the upper 1300s. Nothing special but whatever.

Apparently, looking at the 1825 stats, most top players run Misty Explosion over regular Explosion. It's weird since even a super effective hit is still worse than regular Explosion.
I think the main benefit of this is for Dragapult, which would otherwise easily switch into a predicted Explosion. Most other Ghosts don't have much trouble switching into either move. Its a harder hit on Urshifu, Hydreigon and Kommo-o as well.
 
I need to call my psychiatrist after reading the last page of this thread. Anyway, anyone experimented with Nihilego in this metagame? Meteor Beam + Power Herb seems to give it just enough power to be relevant, though I can't tell if it's heatah or just bad. Could have some relevance as a suicide dual hazard lead. With the sharp offensive turn the metagame took after DLC2 I don't think dedicated leads are all THAT bad. Coverage looks just a bit wonky for a Scarf set and imo it's not really got the Stat spread or movepool for a Specs set.
I've tried Nihilego a few times and most Steels almost completely walling it is frustrating. Nothing you can do threatens Melmetal, Excadrill, or Ferrothorn.
 


Araquanid

Well, I'm back again to talk about another underrated Pokemon that I've been using to some good success in OU, Sticky Webs Utility Araquanid. In addition to this utility, it's one of the few non-fire type Physical attackers that cannot be burned because of Water Bubble. So, let's explore why this Pokemon has some great traits that complement the metagame.

(Note: This set is far from the only option that this Pokemon can run. An Assault Vest set is also possible and brings up Araquanid's special bulk to monstrous levels)


Araquanid @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Sticky Web
- Infestation
- Toxic / Magic Coat

This is the set that I've been running as of late. Araquanid has a crucial Ground resistance, while also having an incredibly hard-hitting Water-type STAB that not many other threats in the metagame have access to. Before we go any further, let me emphasize the power of Water Bubble Liquidation with some calculations, alongside some Bulk comparisons (as I've found that a good number of people will just switch in Pokemon like Spectrier, thinking they can set up and forgetting the power this thing has).

252+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 306-361 (89.4 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 123-145 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 229-271 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Liquidation is your bread and butter and can heighten offensive pressure, especially with its Defense drop chance and the boosted power from Water Bubble. Water Bubble in addition provides a crucial Fire-type resistance and prevents Will-O-Wisp burns, preventing a good number of Pokemon including Spectrier from getting an unexpected drop on Araquanid. Sticky Web is crucial for speed control more than ever in the current metagame and will allow certain threats such as Pheromosa, Spectrier, Regieleki, and Dragapult to lose crucial momentum against your faster Pokemon. Infestation is an extremely interesting choice and is almost entirely intended for specific switch-ins such as Regieleki. Predicting the switch allows you to trap that Pokemon so they can't double switch, then bring out a Ground-type or another specific answer to handle it, eliminating the common possibility of a double switch. The last slot is a toss-up dependent on your specific needs; Toxic is nice, but most of the time Araquanid won't be staying in long enough to make use of it when it could be trapping, hamming away with Liquidation, or setting up Webs. Magic Coat is a great option to bounce hazards and status back, and I've had more success with it than I have with Toxic.
 


Araquanid

Well, I'm back again to talk about another underrated Pokemon that I've been using to some good success in OU, Sticky Webs Utility Araquanid. In addition to this utility, it's one of the few non-fire type Physical attackers that cannot be burned because of Water Bubble. So, let's explore why this Pokemon has some great traits that complement the metagame.

(Note: This set is far from the only option that this Pokemon can run. An Assault Vest set is also possible and brings up Araquanid's special bulk to monstrous levels)


Araquanid @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Sticky Web
- Infestation
- Toxic / Magic Coat

This is the set that I've been running as of late. Araquanid has a crucial Ground resistance, while also having an incredibly hard-hitting Water-type STAB that not many other threats in the metagame have access to. Before we go any further, let me emphasize the power of Water Bubble Liquidation with some calculations, alongside some Bulk comparisons (as I've found that a good number of people will just switch in Pokemon like Spectrier, thinking they can set up and forgetting the power this thing has).

252+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 306-361 (89.4 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 123-145 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 229-271 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Liquidation is your bread and butter and can heighten offensive pressure, especially with its Defense drop chance and the boosted power from Water Bubble. Water Bubble in addition provides a crucial Fire-type resistance and prevents Will-O-Wisp burns, preventing a good number of Pokemon including Spectrier from getting an unexpected drop on Araquanid. Sticky Web is crucial for speed control more than ever in the current metagame and will allow certain threats such as Pheromosa, Spectrier, Regieleki, and Dragapult to lose crucial momentum against your faster Pokemon. Infestation is an extremely interesting choice and is almost entirely intended for specific switch-ins such as Regieleki. Predicting the switch allows you to trap that Pokemon so they can't double switch, then bring out a Ground-type or another specific answer to handle it, eliminating the common possibility of a double switch. The last slot is a toss-up dependent on your specific needs; Toxic is nice, but most of the time Araquanid won't be staying in long enough to make use of it when it could be trapping, hamming away with Liquidation, or setting up Webs. Magic Coat is a great option to bounce hazards and status back, and I've had more success with it than I have with Toxic.
This is great. Araquanid is surprisingly powerful as if I'm not mistaken it essentially gets Huge Power on all its water moves (2x modifier, not including stab). Maybe run some speed EVs? I'm thinking EVs to outspeed SpDef Tyranitar so you can outspeed and KO it before it can KO you with Rock Blast, or maybe even Max Speed to outspeed uninvested Mandibuzz, or EVs to outspeed Pelipper. Then again, you might want to underspeed Swampert so whatever it flip turns out into doesn't get a free switch. Idk what direction I'm going in, but all I'm saying is that there may be a better spread than simply Max HP Max Attack Adamant.

Edit: Maybe you even want to outspeed Swampert if you have a regieleki, so you can smack it with a nice Liquidation before it escapes.
 
This is great. Araquanid is surprisingly powerful as if I'm not mistaken it essentially gets Huge Power on all its water moves (2x modifier, not including stab). Maybe run some speed EVs? I'm thinking EVs to outspeed SpDef Tyranitar so you can outspeed and KO it before it can KO you with Rock Blast, or maybe even Max Speed to outspeed uninvested Mandibuzz, or EVs to outspeed Pelipper. Then again, you might want to underspeed Swampert so whatever it flip turns out into doesn't get a free switch. Idk what direction I'm going in, but all I'm saying is that there may be a better spread than simply Max HP Max Attack Adamant.

Edit: Maybe you even want to outspeed Swampert if you have a regieleki, so you can smack it with a nice Liquidation before it escapes.
Honestly, I haven't had enough issues with Tyranitar. Swampert has been way more of a menace to my team because of my really bad habit of leaving Grass coverage off of my team, which is why I invested fully into HP. I'd need to check calculations to make sure that even with 4 HP it can still survive certain hits that I rely on it to take.
 
:Quagsire: Thoughts on Quagsire :Quagsire:

I decided to run some stall the other day since I've never actually built and used a stall team before. The team itself was honestly terrible but quag was intriguing due to its useful (albiet specific) role compression. I'm not gonna say its a good physical wall, since unimpressive stats with not so useful typing cause many strong neutral moves to smoke it. It can't check urshifu, zapdos-g, pheremosa, or even cinderace all that well. Especially if they're CB. It can check less powerful ground types like garchomp and lando, but it hates toxic. However, here is a list of pokes it shuts down:

:Kyurem-Black:
:Zygarde:
:Regieleki:
:Melmetal:

Of course, its not a hard wall to all variants. CB kyurem can 2hko with the right move, freeze dry coverage is probably an instant loss (though its only good for water ground types so its rare). CB zygarde hurts but is manageable.

I understand standard bulk up buzzwole also checks kyub and zygarde while threatening them out more efficiently, while also hard walling urshifu and generally being a better overall physical wall, but for the fat stall teams quag is decent on I would argue quagsire is more reliable. Doesn't fold to a single crit and it doesn't need to bulk up to counter opposing setup. This of course is all in addition to being a harder wall to melmetal (due to STAB resist) and giving a counter to regieleki, as well as being a better safety net to other miscellaneous setup mons. It doesn't counter things like calm mind fini and blaziken at all, but if it needs to take a boosted hit in a pinch and retaliate it probably can.

To be clear, I'm not saying its great, and its including it in a team instead of buzzwole is a give and take that probably takes more than it gives, but what it gives definitely gives it the edge on other pokemon in some decently common scenarios.

Here's the set I'd recommend:

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Recover

Pretty standard fare. Scald for burns, EQ for useful stab boosted by curse. Recover is self explanatory. The only oddity is curse, and why use it instead of toxic. The rationale is on the stall teams quag is on, other mons can spread the toxic instead of quag. And quag likes cursing up, not to sweep, but because it wants to take as little damage as possible from enemy attacks to preserve recovers. It also helps quag beat other physical attackers in some scenarios, since if you switch quag in on something it walls and curse on the switch, the incoming attacker might not be able to overcome a +1 quagsire. You might wonder why I don't use a physical to abuse curse. Well, curse is only for specific scenarios and the consistency of burns is much better than the inconsistent chance of quagsire sweeping.

To conclude, if you want to be scum and build stall maybe give quag a try. He might be the hidden tech you needed to get 3000 points on ladder.
 

Finchinator

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:Quagsire: Thoughts on Quagsire :Quagsire:

I decided to run some stall the other day since I've never actually built and used a stall team before. The team itself was honestly terrible but quag was intriguing due to its useful (albiet specific) role compression. I'm not gonna say its a good physical wall, since unimpressive stats with not so useful typing cause many strong neutral moves to smoke it. It can't check urshifu, zapdos-g, pheremosa, or even cinderace all that well. Especially if they're CB. It can check less powerful ground types like garchomp and lando, but it hates toxic. However, here is a list of pokes it shuts down:

:Kyurem-Black:
:Zygarde:
:Regieleki:
:Melmetal:

Of course, its not a hard wall to all variants. CB kyurem can 2hko with the right move, freeze dry coverage is probably an instant loss (though its only good for water ground types so its rare). CB zygarde hurts but is manageable.

I understand standard bulk up buzzwole also checks kyub and zygarde while threatening them out more efficiently, while also hard walling urshifu and generally being a better overall physical wall, but for the fat stall teams quag is decent on I would argue quagsire is more reliable. Doesn't fold to a single crit and it doesn't need to bulk up to counter opposing setup. This of course is all in addition to being a harder wall to melmetal (due to STAB resist) and giving a counter to regieleki, as well as being a better safety net to other miscellaneous setup mons. It doesn't counter things like calm mind fini and blaziken at all, but if it needs to take a boosted hit in a pinch and retaliate it probably can.

To be clear, I'm not saying its great, and its including it in a team instead of buzzwole is a give and take that probably takes more than it gives, but what it gives definitely gives it the edge on other pokemon in some decently common scenarios.

Here's the set I'd recommend:

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Recover

Pretty standard fare. Scald for burns, EQ for useful stab boosted by curse. Recover is self explanatory. The only oddity is curse, and why use it instead of toxic. The rationale is on the stall teams quag is on, other mons can spread the toxic instead of quag. And quag likes cursing up, not to sweep, but because it wants to take as little damage as possible from enemy attacks to preserve recovers. It also helps quag beat other physical attackers in some scenarios, since if you switch quag in on something it walls and curse on the switch, the incoming attacker might not be able to overcome a +1 quagsire. You might wonder why I don't use a physical to abuse curse. Well, curse is only for specific scenarios and the consistency of burns is much better than the inconsistent chance of quagsire sweeping.

To conclude, if you want to be scum and build stall maybe give quag a try. He might be the hidden tech you needed to get 3000 points on ladder.
Not saying Quagsire is bad, but Quagsire is not a particularly reliable answer to Kyurem-Black as Teravolt ignores Unaware and +1 Icicle Spear can do north of 50% with 3 hits. Even if you go for curse, it just takes one go-around where it gets more than 3 hits or a critical hit and it can dispose of Quagsire without being the threatened much at all. In addition, Earthquake does not always break the Substitute of Kyurem-Black, especially if it is invested to survive a Seismic Toss behind a Substitute, which means threatening with Scald burns is even less likely.
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 180-216 (45.6 - 54.8%) -- approx. 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 240-288 (60.9 - 73%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 201-237 (51 - 60.1%) -- approx. 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 94-112 (23.2 - 27.6%) -- 78% chance to 4HKO
 
Not saying Quagsire is bad, but Quagsire is not a particularly reliable answer to Kyurem-Black as Teravolt ignores Unaware and +1 Icicle Spear can do north of 50% with 3 hits. Even if you go for curse, it just takes one go-around where it gets more than 3 hits or a critical hit and it can dispose of Quagsire without being the threatened much at all. In addition, Earthquake does not always break the Substitute of Kyurem-Black, especially if it is invested to survive a Seismic Toss behind a Substitute, which means threatening with Scald burns is even less likely.
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 180-216 (45.6 - 54.8%) -- approx. 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 240-288 (60.9 - 73%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 201-237 (51 - 60.1%) -- approx. 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 94-112 (23.2 - 27.6%) -- 78% chance to 4HKO
Lol i completely forgot about this... apparently my opponents did too! Or maybe curse stacking was enough to encourage them to switch out. Yeah this only further limits the scope of the niche, probably to nonexistence...
 

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