However, you forgot Meteor Beam into Power Gem. I'm not certain if anyone runs this moveset, but the combined minimum damage of a +1 Meteor Beam and a +1 Power gem is 91.8%, which means Heatran hangs on with 1.95% of its health after stealth rocks and leftovers recovery (with the given spread). Given that these are minimum roles, I'd say that there's probably around an 80% chance or more that Heatran dies to these two after rocks + lefties, as in order to live the hits both of the roles must be minimum or very near minimum. Even if you don't get the roll, Earth Power never KOs back, even after rocks. I can't input on how viable Nihilego is, I'm just crunching the numbers.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I've been trying it out on Victini on more offensive builds, and while it's definitely harder to use than a slowbrother, its able to force switches pretty well considering how threatening its V-create based sets are (allowing you opportunities to click future sight), and the better speed tier and the combo of Blue Flare and Scorching Sands can really threaten the bulky steel types who wouldn't otherwise mind switching into Slowbrothers.
Victini @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blue Flare
- Scorching Sands/Glaciate/Energy Ball
- Future Sight
- U-turn
I'd like to point out with the Nihilego post I made and other posts I made about UU or lower-tiered Pokemon I've made over the last few months that I never meant to cause arguments or any detractions from how the OU meta is talked about. I just wanted to give perspective and new life to Pokemon that would otherwise be ignored that have a legitimate purpose in this meta.
Just know that I love all of you, and I love everything that this community has done for me personally and for others I care about over all the time that it has existed. Thank you.
Just know that I love all of you, and I love everything that this community has done for me personally and for others I care about over all the time that it has existed. Thank you.
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Yeah, as if anyone using a Heatran lets that happen. I mean yes it could work, but you are using both Meteor Beam and Power Gem. If you are using SR as well when you either lack Grass Knot for Grounds or STAB Sludge Wave and either way a pure Steel type still walls you.
A big part of what makes strategies involving Future Sight and Slowbro and Slowking so potent is the combination Regenerator + Teleport. It creates a lot of breathing room for your teammates without losing a ton of momentum thanks to Regenerator. I don't think any other Pokemon is anywhere near as a good of a user of Future Sight; atleast not in the way you use it with Slowbro and Slowking.
So thats how Future sight became viable in these days,interesting i give it a try in these days
Yea the fact that G-Slowking doesn't get Teleport for whatever reason sucks, especially since it has base 110 Special Attack and thus a 10% stronger Future Sight (which is a pretty big deal!). Still usable since Future Sight is still a great move, but yea.
Maybe some things are ment to happen, but It does pretty much suck for sure :c
I do wish that i knew i was wishing for in a pokemon but all i can think of is my salac berry gapdos set
I've tried using Nihilego a little (low on the ladder) as both a Toxic Spiker and Rocker and its movepool really leaves a lot to be desired in regards to Steel-types. Only Corviknight and Heatran take neutral damage from Meteor Beam, and while Thunderbolt would be good middleground its power leaves a lot to be desired and sets Nihilego up to be walled by Excadrill and Ferrothorn. Grass Knot for Ground-types just compounds the weakness to Steel-types (especially Ferrothorn), and if Nihilego runs 4 Attacks it's either either lacking power because all it's got is a Life Orb or it loses coverage between Meteor Beam being one-off-ish or by doubling up with Power Gem and dropping coverage.
That it can threaten out Toxapex doesn't matter very much given Pex will eat any Toxic Spikes Nihilego lays automatically and it will almost certainly outlast it in the average game, too.
That it can threaten out Toxapex doesn't matter very much given Pex will eat any Toxic Spikes Nihilego lays automatically and it will almost certainly outlast it in the average game, too.
I’d also just like to echo Jordy’s praise of FuturePort, it’s one of the best ways to make consistent progress against most of the meta. I’d also like to ask the inverse - is there any way to punish it? With boots and no pursuit I find it really tough without having knock off on my whole team to get rid of the boots.
This has already been discussed. Kommo-o's best set is Physically Defensive with Rocks/EQ/Body Press/Taunt(or Toxic). It really cannot afford to give up any of those moves (no Rocks and it's dead weight, no Body Press and it hits like a wet noodle, no EQ and it misses out on coverage against many threats it should check-especially notably being useless against Special Ghosts and Poisons it otherwise handles with Bulletproof-no Taunt/Toxic and it has no way of threatening Defoggers).
Clanging Scales itself suffers from several issues, including dropping Def so Kommo is weaker to the physical attacks it should tank, being on what is Kommo's usual - Nature stat and often failing to OHKO uninvested even after Sub damage:
0 SpA Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 12 HP / 48 SpD Zygarde: 236-278 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Sub.
Finally, Kommo has no reliable recovery, is easy for Zy to stall out in the long run, and it totally fails to check any Toxic or Dragon Tail set.
I fail to see why you couldn’t just drop eq for clanging scales. Eq does fuck all to Toxapex so you’re not beating it anyway and you have stab coverage for heatran already. Clanging scales is (obviously) more effective vs dragapult but also does more damage to spectrier than eq while hitting through its sub. Eq is maybe better for hitting magearna but if you’re running a fully invested 252+ defense set then body press actually does the exact same damage. The only thing you actually lose out on by dropping eq is coverage for aegislash which is near nonexistent in the tier. Am I missing something here?
Yes.
- Clanging Scales drops Defence by 1. This might seem a small thing, but on a mon that is primarily a Physically Defensive tank, this kinda compromises you. It's like running Close Combat or Superpower on a tank, and in general it makes Kommo way too easy to overload, especially considering it's a rocker and it doesn't get recovery.
- Think about what Clanging Scales actually hits Super Effectively. Other Dragons. Other Dragons that are mostly faster than you and can hit you Super Effectively with their own Dragon STAB before you can move. If someone goes hard Dragapult into Kommo without knowing the set, that's a major misplay considering it could easily be an offensive set, and that's the only way you're ever hitting a Dragon with it. And in return every Fairy ever (including our pink overlord Clefable) gets to park in front of you risk-free. Compare what Earthquake hits Super Effectively (obviously you aren't breaking Phys Def Pex because it's Pex rofl, but at least it doesn't get to come in for free on you), and you get a list of mons that Kommo's Ability and typing already lend itself to checking like Aegislash, Blaziken, Cinderace, Gengar and so on. It's the difference between being setup bait for Blaziken or immediately reducing it to <10% health after Rocks and tanking 1 hit from it at +2 unless it has coverage for you.
- You punish certain Flying types like Zapdos for Roosting. Minor, and Body Press already covers Steel birds, but worth pointing out.
- You're more Ditto-proof. Again, minor, but worth pointing out.
- The benefit of Clanging Scales hitting through Sub are actually very small outside the Zygarde matchup. You mention Spectrier, but either it has Hex and Kommo has no business getting anywhere near it whether it hits through Sub or not, or it only has Shadow Ball and you wall it all day every day. EQ breaks its Sub anyway no big deal. Unless you're planning on checking 0 Speed Kyurem with it, there isn't actually a lot that hitting through Sub enables you to handle besides our least favourite land snake.
- And even then it it turns out to have Dragon Tail, Outrage or Toxic rip your check. Kommo is a backup check to Zygarde at best and needs another mon to scout the set because it cannot afford to be put on a timer by Toxic. The fact it has to give up a moveslot it would rather not give up, just to do it reliably completes the "why bother" package.
- No-one runs 252+ Def. It's a rocker in a crowded speed tier. It needs special bulk too.
I agree. If Kommo-o really wants to check Zygarde no matter the cost then Dragon Pulse or Iron Defense Body Press would be a better option. Dragon Pulse still hits it super effectively with STAB and chunks Pokemon that could normally come on anything except Toxic like Latios or Dragonite, but doesn't come with the drawback of lowering defense and has double PP. Iron Defense Body Press lets it overwhelm Zygarde (provided it lacks a Dragon Move like Dragon Tail Outrage or even Breaking Swipe) and has extra niche uses in overwhelming things like Swampert and in general just being harder to kill on the physical side. Both are still pretty fringe options, and are really a waste of a slot that could go to Taunt Toxic Earthquake etc, but they are leagues better than running Clanging Scales.
This is a good post but I don't totally agree with it so I'm just going to go through each point. Also I haven't personally used clanging scales kommo but we're mostly theorymonning here and on paper the set doesn't seem so bad to me.
Kommo-o @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Body Press
- Clanging Scales
- Iron Defense/Toxic
This is the set you would probably be using, EVs mostly dependent on how much speed you want
1. Absolutely, dropping your defense on a mon with body press isn't ideal. However if you're using clanging scales kommo (either to hit dragapult on the switch in when it tries to block body press, or to hit spectrier which bulletproof kommo can actually switch into) then you don't need body press at full power or really at all. The opponent either gets hit with clanging scales or they switch out to their kommo answer like a fairy type in which case you have to switch out on the next turn anyway and the stat drop is reset. Imo the defense drop from clanging scales only seems like a downside in the zygarde matchup. However zygarde is going to be hitting kommo first and then taking the clanging scales so the defense drop doesn't even factor until the next turn. Clang should be a clean 2hko on almost all zygarde's except like 252hp 252spdef.
+1 252 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Kommo-o: 118-141 (33.4 - 39.9%)
+1 252 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. -1 248 HP / 192+ Def Kommo-o: 178-210 (50.4 - 59.4%)
As you can see zygarde doesn't win this scenario 1v1 after a dd or coil boost even with full investment (which a lot of sets aren't running)
2. I already kind of addressed this point above which is that you're hitting them on the switch in. Kommo is obviously not supposed to be a check to dragon types that are already on the field. As a counterpoint though, think about what eq is hitting super effectively (or even for more damage than clang) that body press can't already damage? I went over it in my first post but I don't see how eq is helpful on the defensive kommo set whatsoever when clang is simply more powerful. It was standard in pre-dlc because aegislash was everywhere but that mon has like negative ou usage rn.
3. Eq does not punish zapdos or moltres from roosting, it doesn't even do 50%. If you want to beat those mons you have to run toxic.
4. Ditto proofing is seriously irrelevant here because kommo's goal isn't to sweep. Enough said
5. Yes, kommo walls spectrier if it only has shadowball regardless of if your last move is eq or clang. However, your eq set loses to sub wisp spectrier 1v1 and clang is all around better vs any spectrier set because it's both stronger than eq and ignores the sub. This is a point in favor of clanging scales > eq, no?
6. I agree that kommo is kind of a backup check to zygarde, it shouldn't be completely relied upon and definitely isn't a long-term answer to banded zygarde. Outrage zygarde, while kind of uncommon outside of the banded set, will put you in a bad position if you run into it. It should be noted though....
+1 252 Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Kommo-o: 318-374 (90 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
You actually have a pretty good chance to live the +1 outrage from full and hit back for huge damage with clang. As far as dragon tail zygarde goes, idk what to tell you. I don't even think that's a set that people run and I haven't seen it a single time I've played on (high or low) ladder. There are so many moves that zygarde would love to have in its 4 moveslots, why would you ever waste one on dragon tail?
7. Why can't kommo run 252+ defense? It doesn't *need* special defense, that's totally dependent on what the rest of your team looks like. If you already have dedicated special walls then I see no problem with a fully phys def kommo. Imo you should invest a little speed on kommo but you can take those few EVs out of hp to not decrease the power of body press. If you do take them out of defense, then what? Your body press is roughly 2% less powerful against magearna than eq, big deal.
Aaaaand I think that's everything. I definitely feel like clang kommo has potential but I'll need to try building with it some to see how it works out.
Was surprised to see Alolan Raichu not listed in the OU viability list. Considering Tapu Koko is back so you get an actual good mon with electric terrain, and the power of Regieleki powered up by said terrain, having an electric terrain abuser that can destroy ground types seems pretty great.
Raichu-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Surf
- Rising Voltage
- Psychic
This outspeeds even scarf Dragapult, which people are actually using to outspeed stuff like Regieleki, ddance Kyurem and Zygarde and rain Kingdra. Rising Voltage in E-terrain mauls basically everything except extremely bulky resists, and with a nasty plot boost it mauls even those. The only things that outspeed it are rain Barraskewda (which has suddenly gotten really popular) and unburden Hawlucha....except if Hawlucha doesn't have throat chop, it can't actually KO you back without its precious swords dance boost since you resist its 2 attacks. Surf is the real reason why you're using this though. The old sets had grass knot listed, assuming that's when Seismitoad was everywhere, and you can still run that if you really hate Swampert I guess, but surf nabs Excadrill which is extremely important, and nabs kills that psychic can miss out on for Lando-T.
There's surprisingly little that can stop it after a nasty plot boost in terrain tbh. Rillaboom is very good at it as it changes terrain and just kills with glide, but Lele has fallen out of favor and Fini gets destroyed. It needs chip on Ferrothorn, which isn't super difficult to do. Ground dragons seem good, until you realise even max HP Garchomp is 50% chance to be 1hko by boosted psychic (which btw is why you run psychic over psyshock. The extra damage is absolutely worth it as blissey/chansey take more from rising voltage anyway) and uninvested Zygarde is like a 90% chance to die from boosted psychic (although if it's banded e-speed then oh well). The best checks to it are the levitate mons, due to how rising voltage works, like the Latis, Hydreigon and...err Vikavolt? Rotom Heat gets walloped by surf, Thundurus gets mauled by psychic, and max hp Zapdos is 80% chance to be ohko'd by boosted rising voltage even without the double damage, and doesn't actually hurt Raichu back that much anyways.
It's definitely a niche mon that only works on electric terrain teams, but considering e-terrain teams have been trying to beat ground types by just try overwhelm them with repeated hits to clear way for Regieleki, why not pick up a mon that can just kill them outright?
Raichu-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Surf
- Rising Voltage
- Psychic
This outspeeds even scarf Dragapult, which people are actually using to outspeed stuff like Regieleki, ddance Kyurem and Zygarde and rain Kingdra. Rising Voltage in E-terrain mauls basically everything except extremely bulky resists, and with a nasty plot boost it mauls even those. The only things that outspeed it are rain Barraskewda (which has suddenly gotten really popular) and unburden Hawlucha....except if Hawlucha doesn't have throat chop, it can't actually KO you back without its precious swords dance boost since you resist its 2 attacks. Surf is the real reason why you're using this though. The old sets had grass knot listed, assuming that's when Seismitoad was everywhere, and you can still run that if you really hate Swampert I guess, but surf nabs Excadrill which is extremely important, and nabs kills that psychic can miss out on for Lando-T.
There's surprisingly little that can stop it after a nasty plot boost in terrain tbh. Rillaboom is very good at it as it changes terrain and just kills with glide, but Lele has fallen out of favor and Fini gets destroyed. It needs chip on Ferrothorn, which isn't super difficult to do. Ground dragons seem good, until you realise even max HP Garchomp is 50% chance to be 1hko by boosted psychic (which btw is why you run psychic over psyshock. The extra damage is absolutely worth it as blissey/chansey take more from rising voltage anyway) and uninvested Zygarde is like a 90% chance to die from boosted psychic (although if it's banded e-speed then oh well). The best checks to it are the levitate mons, due to how rising voltage works, like the Latis, Hydreigon and...err Vikavolt? Rotom Heat gets walloped by surf, Thundurus gets mauled by psychic, and max hp Zapdos is 80% chance to be ohko'd by boosted rising voltage even without the double damage, and doesn't actually hurt Raichu back that much anyways.
It's definitely a niche mon that only works on electric terrain teams, but considering e-terrain teams have been trying to beat ground types by just try overwhelm them with repeated hits to clear way for Regieleki, why not pick up a mon that can just kill them outright?
Be sure to check out the OU Tiering Survey that is open to anyone on the forums! You can also post your thoughts on the Pokemon in the survey or the reasoning for why you answered as you did here if you wish!
In response to the playerbase survey;
In my opinion the most polarizing mon in the tier. With solid natural bulk, a great defensive typing, and it's ability to spread status with Glare, I would be in favor of banning it if a suspect test was held today. It forces a heavy consideration when building a team, as lacking at least a soft check to it will make your life misery. The two "hard" checks for it, Buzzwole and Zarude, are both solid for sure, but I don't think it is healthy for the tier to keep a mon like this around. I'm a believer in the notion that "the better player should win", and zygarde clicking Glare and spamming sub until the opponent gets hax'd is not fun for me, or anyone.
Next in line for mons who I think do not belong in this tier. One D-dance, and all of the sudden the entire game is in jeopardy. Ice/electric hits almost the entire tier for at least neutral damage, and I have run into more than a few who run Earth Power to deal with defensive Heatran sets that would otherwise check it. There are ways to deal with it, sure, but it is immediately a threat to sweep entire teams if it gets a free switch in on the right mon. I would be in favor of banning this today if a test was held.
I always thought Melmetal wasn't banworthy last DLC, and it most certainly is not in this metagame. Two mons that I run at least one of on most teams, Zapdos & Moltres, check this thing pretty effectively. The threat of a flame body/static is sometimes enough to discourage the opponent from risking the status, and switching the legendary birds in on a DIB can cripple it for the rest of the game. Defensive Buzzwole also completely walls this thing. It is strong, sure, but its low speed tier and lackluster Sp. Def do not make it banworthy in my eyes.
A tough call for me. Suffers majorly from 4MSS. If it doesn't run Poison Jab, it is unable to damage Fini or Clef. If it doesn't run Drill Run, it can't touch Pex. If it doesn't run Throat Chop, it has a lot of trouble getting rid of the ghost horse. Just like Melmetal, Mosa absolutely hates teams that have Zapdos or Moltres, especially since Triple Axel sets have been gaining popularity. One burn/paralysis and it is completely crippled to the point of almost being useless. It is also extremely susceptible to priority. Banded aqua jet from Urshifu-R will ohko after rocks, or after Mosa drops its defense from using CC. It requires some care in the teambuilder, but I think it has enough checks/counterplay to be kept in the tier. I do not see it as a problem.
Just not the Ubers mon it used to be. Has paper thin defenses and is very susceptible to getting revenged by priority. Similarly to Mosa, it suffers greatly from 4MSS. I don't really have a ton to say here, I have not ran into that many blaziken on the ladder, and I don't think most people see it as a problem.
It is a strong mon for sure, but I don't see it is a problem in the tier right now. If you let it get up a nasty plot it could be threatening, but it is surprisingly frail and is easily revenged by most scarfers. Maybe requires a look later, but not an issue in the current meta.
In my opinion, this mon will never be banworthy unless it gains coverage of some sort from a new generation or dlc. It isn't as limited as regieleki, but can do almost nothing to normal/dark types. Obviously, any team lacking a ghost resist is constantly in danger of having spectrier snowball out of control. Every team should have a ghost resist, similar to the sentiment that every team should have a ground type to deal with eleki. Not banworthy.
Kinda borderline on Mag. It can run about 50 different sets, making it really hard to plan for. Due to it's excellent coverage, it is completely walled by very few mons. At this current moment, I don't think it deserves to be banned, but once Zygarde (hopefully) is exorcised from the tier, I think Magearna at least deserves consideration for a suspect.
Back when Ace was one of the fastest mons in the tier, I understand why it was banned. Now, stuff like Mosa and the ghost horse make it harder to Ace to pivot around freely. Bulky flying types like Zapdos and Moltres are its worst enemy, similar to Mosa. One paralysis/burn and it is crippled. Also has major 4MSS. Not banworthy at this time.
I have never thought Pex was banworthy, and it is especially not ao in this meta. So many offensive threats will nuke Pex if it isn't careful. It will always be a cornerstone of OU as long as it is around, but I can't ever see it being banworthy, sans all the offensive mons getting banned.
Please god, no. I am strongly against the idea of unbanning either form of Zamazenta, but if we are going along with this idea that it would be balanced in this meta, then the crowned version would be unbanned, not this one. The idea of giving a hard hitting, fast tank the ability to hold an item sounds horrible to me. I know no one is in favor of unbanning this version of Zamazenta, and for good reason.
I mean, it can't hold an item, but it is still too much for OU. With incredible bulk, a +1 defense while coming in, and 130 ATK & 128 base speed, max speed Zamazenta will be outrunning mons like Cinderace, Kartana, Urshifu, etc. I understand it can't hold an item, I understand it doesn't have good stat boosting moves, but with insane BST and very respectable coverage, I am not seeing the argument for allowing Zamazenta into OU. The combination of fast, bulky, and hard hitting is a very dangerous one. Just because something is trash in ubers, doesn't mean it is fit for OU.
In my opinion the most polarizing mon in the tier. With solid natural bulk, a great defensive typing, and it's ability to spread status with Glare, I would be in favor of banning it if a suspect test was held today. It forces a heavy consideration when building a team, as lacking at least a soft check to it will make your life misery. The two "hard" checks for it, Buzzwole and Zarude, are both solid for sure, but I don't think it is healthy for the tier to keep a mon like this around. I'm a believer in the notion that "the better player should win", and zygarde clicking Glare and spamming sub until the opponent gets hax'd is not fun for me, or anyone.
Next in line for mons who I think do not belong in this tier. One D-dance, and all of the sudden the entire game is in jeopardy. Ice/electric hits almost the entire tier for at least neutral damage, and I have run into more than a few who run Earth Power to deal with defensive Heatran sets that would otherwise check it. There are ways to deal with it, sure, but it is immediately a threat to sweep entire teams if it gets a free switch in on the right mon. I would be in favor of banning this today if a test was held.
I always thought Melmetal wasn't banworthy last DLC, and it most certainly is not in this metagame. Two mons that I run at least one of on most teams, Zapdos & Moltres, check this thing pretty effectively. The threat of a flame body/static is sometimes enough to discourage the opponent from risking the status, and switching the legendary birds in on a DIB can cripple it for the rest of the game. Defensive Buzzwole also completely walls this thing. It is strong, sure, but its low speed tier and lackluster Sp. Def do not make it banworthy in my eyes.
A tough call for me. Suffers majorly from 4MSS. If it doesn't run Poison Jab, it is unable to damage Fini or Clef. If it doesn't run Drill Run, it can't touch Pex. If it doesn't run Throat Chop, it has a lot of trouble getting rid of the ghost horse. Just like Melmetal, Mosa absolutely hates teams that have Zapdos or Moltres, especially since Triple Axel sets have been gaining popularity. One burn/paralysis and it is completely crippled to the point of almost being useless. It is also extremely susceptible to priority. Banded aqua jet from Urshifu-R will ohko after rocks, or after Mosa drops its defense from using CC. It requires some care in the teambuilder, but I think it has enough checks/counterplay to be kept in the tier. I do not see it as a problem.
Just not the Ubers mon it used to be. Has paper thin defenses and is very susceptible to getting revenged by priority. Similarly to Mosa, it suffers greatly from 4MSS. I don't really have a ton to say here, I have not ran into that many blaziken on the ladder, and I don't think most people see it as a problem.
It is a strong mon for sure, but I don't see it is a problem in the tier right now. If you let it get up a nasty plot it could be threatening, but it is surprisingly frail and is easily revenged by most scarfers. Maybe requires a look later, but not an issue in the current meta.
In my opinion, this mon will never be banworthy unless it gains coverage of some sort from a new generation or dlc. It isn't as limited as regieleki, but can do almost nothing to normal/dark types. Obviously, any team lacking a ghost resist is constantly in danger of having spectrier snowball out of control. Every team should have a ghost resist, similar to the sentiment that every team should have a ground type to deal with eleki. Not banworthy.
Kinda borderline on Mag. It can run about 50 different sets, making it really hard to plan for. Due to it's excellent coverage, it is completely walled by very few mons. At this current moment, I don't think it deserves to be banned, but once Zygarde (hopefully) is exorcised from the tier, I think Magearna at least deserves consideration for a suspect.
Back when Ace was one of the fastest mons in the tier, I understand why it was banned. Now, stuff like Mosa and the ghost horse make it harder to Ace to pivot around freely. Bulky flying types like Zapdos and Moltres are its worst enemy, similar to Mosa. One paralysis/burn and it is crippled. Also has major 4MSS. Not banworthy at this time.
I have never thought Pex was banworthy, and it is especially not ao in this meta. So many offensive threats will nuke Pex if it isn't careful. It will always be a cornerstone of OU as long as it is around, but I can't ever see it being banworthy, sans all the offensive mons getting banned.
Please god, no. I am strongly against the idea of unbanning either form of Zamazenta, but if we are going along with this idea that it would be balanced in this meta, then the crowned version would be unbanned, not this one. The idea of giving a hard hitting, fast tank the ability to hold an item sounds horrible to me. I know no one is in favor of unbanning this version of Zamazenta, and for good reason.
I mean, it can't hold an item, but it is still too much for OU. With incredible bulk, a +1 defense while coming in, and 130 ATK & 128 base speed, max speed Zamazenta will be outrunning mons like Cinderace, Kartana, Urshifu, etc. I understand it can't hold an item, I understand it doesn't have good stat boosting moves, but with insane BST and very respectable coverage, I am not seeing the argument for allowing Zamazenta into OU. The combination of fast, bulky, and hard hitting is a very dangerous one. Just because something is trash in ubers, doesn't mean it is fit for OU.
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So, very much agree with your selections at first, except I definitely would want a quickban on both Zygarde and Kyurem-Black. If they feel like letting this metagame keep being uncompetitive for longer, then please suspect Kyurem Black and not Zygarde, ban Zygarde immediately. I also think Phero can go either way and see no issues with Blaziken whatsoever at the current state. Torn is not even an issue, in my opinon. It has not been unbalanced and if it is broken, it has been overshadowed by busted Zygarde and Kyub.In response to the playerbase survey;
In my opinion the most polarizing mon in the tier. With solid natural bulk, a great defensive typing, and it's ability to spread status with Glare, I would be in favor of banning it if a suspect test was held today. It forces a heavy consideration when building a team, as lacking at least a soft check to it will make your life misery. The two "hard" checks for it, Buzzwole and Zarude, are both solid for sure, but I don't think it is healthy for the tier to keep a mon like this around. I'm a believer in the notion that "the better player should win", and zygarde clicking Glare and spamming sub until the opponent gets hax'd is not fun for me, or anyone.
Next in line for mons who I think do not belong in this tier. One D-dance, and all of the sudden the entire game is in jeopardy. Ice/electric hits almost the entire tier for at least neutral damage, and I have run into more than a few who run Earth Power to deal with defensive Heatran sets that would otherwise check it. There are ways to deal with it, sure, but it is immediately a threat to sweep entire teams if it gets a free switch in on the right mon. I would be in favor of banning this today if a test was held.
I always thought Melmetal wasn't banworthy last DLC, and it most certainly is not in this metagame. Two mons that I run at least one of one most teams, Zapdos & Moltres, check this thing pretty effectively. The threat of a flame body/static is sometimes enough to discourage the opponent from risking the status, and switching the legendary birds in on a DIB can cripple it for the rest of the game. Defensive Buzzwole also completely walls this thing. It is strong, sure, but its low speed tier and lackluster Sp. Def do not make it banworthy in my eyes.
A tough call for me. Suffers majorly from 4MSS. If it doesn't run Poison Jab, it is unable to damage Fini or Clef. If it doesn't run Drill Run, it can't touch Pex. If it doesn't run Throat Chop, it has a lot of trouble getting rid of the ghost horse. Just like Melmetal, Mosa absolutely hates teams that have Zapdos or Moltres, especially since Triple Axel sets have been gaining popularity. One burn/paralysis and it is completely crippled to the point of almost being useless. It is also extremely susceptible to priority. Banded aqua jet from Urshifu-R will ohko after rocks, or after Mosa drops its defense from using CC. It requires some care in the teambuilder, but I think it has enough checks/counterplay to be kept in the tier. I do not see it as a problem.
Just not the Ubers mon it used to be. Has paper thin defenses and is very susceptible to getting revenged by priority. Similarly to Mosa, it suffers greatly from 4MSS. I don't really have a ton to say here, I have not ran into that many blaziken on the ladder, and I don't think most people see it as a problem.
It is a strong mon for sure, but I don't see it is a problem in the tier right now. If you let it get up a nasty plot it could be threatening, but it is surprisingly frail and is easily revenged by most scarfers. Maybe requires a look later, but not an issue in the current meta.
In my opinion, this mon will never be banworthy unless it gains coverage of some sort from a new generation or dlc. It isn't as limited as regieleki, but can do almost nothing to normal/dark types. Obviously, any team lacking a ghost resist is constantly in danger of having spectrier snowball out of control. Every team should have a ghost resist, similar to the sentiment that every team should have a ground type to deal with eleki. Not banworthy.
Kinda borderline on Mag. It can run about 50 different sets, making it really hard to plan for. Due to it's excellent coverage, it is completely walled by very few mons. At this current moment, I don't think it deserves to be banned, but once Zygarde (hopefully) is exorcised from the tier, I think Magearna at least deserves consideration for a suspect.
Back when Ace was one of the fastest mons in the tier, I understand why it was banned. Now, stuff like Mosa and the ghost horse make it harder to Ace to pivot around freely. Bulky flying types like Zapdos and Moltres are its worst enemy, similar to Mosa. One paralysis/burn and it is crippled. Also has major 4MSS. Not banworthy at this time.
I have never thought Pex was banworthy, and it is especially not ao in this meta. So many offensive threats will nuke Pex if it isn't careful. It will always be a cornerstone of OU as long as it is around, but I can't ever see it being banworthy, sans all the offensive mons getting banned.
Please god, no. I am strongly against the idea of banning either form of Zamazenta, but if we are going along with this idea that it would be balanced in this meta, then the crowned version would be unbanned, not this one. The idea of giving a hard hitting, fast tank the ability to hold an item sounds horrible to me. I know no one is in favor of unbanning this version of Zamazenta, and for good reason.
I mean, it can't hold an item, but it is still too much for OU. With incredible bulk, a +1 defense while coming in, and 130 ATK & 128 base speed, max speed Zamazenta will be outrunning mons like Cinderace, Kartana, Urshifu, etc. I understand it can't hold an item, I understand it doesn't have good stat boosting moves, but with insane BST and very respectable coverage, I am not seeing the argument for allowing Zamazenta into OU. The combination of fast, bulky, and hard hitting is a very dangerous one. Just because something is trash in ubers, doesn't mean it is fit for OU.
On Magearna, I'm actually sure it will be suspected. The only reason people aren't looking at it strongly right now is because Zygarde is allowed to ruin the damn tier, but Magearna is very problematic for very much the same reasons it was before. This hasn't changed, and this mon can steal games away with bullshit very easily depending on sets. You could argue the Specs set is harder to run now than before, but it is still prettt damn good, and the setup sets are impossible to adequately prepare for abd predict, just like in gen 7. We have bigger fish to fry right now, but this needs to go.
Melmetal is not an issue whatsoever. It is a great mon but it definitely gained strong checks and counters that reliably make its life difficult. Spectrier is... Weird. Despite its limitations, it may actually be too strong as is, as it technically can beat its check if it has the right set despite this being more difficult in practice than in paper.
Pex has a case to be banned before Crown Tundra, but no more. It is actually a very balanced mon despite the unfair bs that is Regen + Recovery + that movepool on an unkillable mon.
On Zamazenta, I agree that any player with an inkling of brain should not want to test regular form Zamazenta. I've seen attempts to make it sound as if its a worse mon than Pheromosa but it is clearly not. The combination of great bulk, an incredible tier with a typing that resists one of the strongest forms of priority available, and a very strong and spammable STAB with a movepool adequate to break its checks makes this mon far too versatile and powerful to be released in the OU metagame. It could run Scarf, Band with ease, if not more as it gets experimented.
When it comes to Zamazenta Crowned, however, I do believe it merits a look. While I hate (HATE) to jump on Blunder/Aim bandwagon debates, he does make a point in his video. The lack of item usage renders a lot of this coverage moot when it comes to breaking fat or even netting OHKOes on offensive OU staples. The speed tier is not bad by any means, but it far less impossing when compared to before the Shield. And while a +1 in Defense with that bulk is frankly ridiculous, the mon has no access to recovery whatsoever, no Body Press to increase its offensive presence, and would have to rely on Howl to set up (This might be enough to make it busted considering how hard it will be to kill it, but its hard to tell without seeing it used). While it does look busted on paper, I believe it has enough limitation in practice to warrant allowing Crowned Form Zamazenta a shot at OU. Lets not forget that Kyurem Black is a cover legendary and has absurd stats as that status befits it. Yet Kyurem Black was a very balanced OU staple for 3 generations, and only in this gen did it gain access to tools that made us want his removal from play. I think Zamazenta-Crowned should be allowed a shot at OU to see if it could be the 2nd cover Legendary to see play in OU, despite it being a restricted mon (there is no way Zamazenta's regular form should be tested whatsoever).
Solid point regarding Zamazenta-C. I am not against a suspect test being held. Maybe it will take something like that for all the Zamazenta truthers out there to realize just how polarizing it would be in the tier. Just my opinion though.
A response for the survey, because sure, why not.
Ban, please. I'd say it's currently the most dangerous threat in the meta, with its sheer versatility and staying power. Combined with thousand arrows, it has a set that can beat almost anything. Choice band can take care of some faster threats with extreme speed and Clefable with iron tail, sub coil/ddance sets up on too many things to be easily stopped without potentially risking choice band, resttalk is annoying as hell, there's some thousand waves sets that can take out some of the more annoying things for it... and that's not even mentioning glare, which is probably what pushes it over the top, ensuring that nothing could possibly reliably check it with that 25% chance to just not move. And it also gets toxic, to boot, for some things that might not care about glare as much, or that might otherwise not take that much damage from it. I guess Fini checks it pretty well, compared to other options? Rillaboom is usually okay against it too, if it switches in early enough (although Zygarde loves the passive recovery of grassy terrain). But there's not a whole lotta consistent answers, and the situational ones just get blown away by the wrong set or parahax. Very unhealthy, very centralizing. Ban it.
Another ban. Not quite as big of a problem as Zygarde, in my opinion, but dragon dance and icicle spear push it way over the edge. After just one dragon dance, it can reliably defeat anything not named Melmetal, depending on the set. Sub allows it to abuse anything that might want to status or outspeed it, roost keeps it healthy longterm against most priority, and dual wingbeat allows it to decimate Buzzwole, which is otherwise an admittedly good answer. I know icicle spear is inconsistent, but it does have a notable benefit of hitting multiple times, meaning some things that could've killed it under a substitute like some variants of Zygarde aren't reliable anymore. And fusion bolt, as everyone knows, rounds out its boltbeam coverage to let it decimate water types that might otherwise check it, like Toxapex and Fini. Ban it. Please.
It's fine, for now. Hard hitting, hard to kill on the physical side, and double iron bash pairs well with trick room for bullshit flinch hax stuff, but it's outsped by almost literally everything, and is very vulnerable to chip from hazards, rocky helmet, rough skin/iron barbs, and voltturn. Its special defense is shit, so any moderately strong special attacker threatens it out unless it has assault vest, in which case it kills a lot less things than it does with choice band. I think it might warrant a closer look after the biggest threats are banned, but for now I think it's perfectly balanced, albeit definitely a top threat.
I think this deserves a suspect after the quickbans are done, but shouldn't be quickbanned. It's not overwhelming, currently, but it is very very annoying. It does have 4MSS, but it can bypass all of its checks with the right set--throat chop for ghost types, drill run for Toxapex, and triple axel/ice beam for flying types/bulky grounds like Zygarde, Landorus-T, or potentially Garchomp. However, if it lacks that coverage the mons in question don't really care about anything it can do to them, and no matter what it struggles with some consistent answers--mainly Zapdos and Moltres, which have a chance to paralyze or burn it, respectively; Moltres in particular is good against it, since it laughs at stabs and mostly shrugs off triple axel or ice beam. So yeah, although it's very good, it is inherently limited and has some pretty solid checks that are on most teams, so I don't think it's broken yet. Good to look into after other things though, and see how the metagame changes inevitably effect it.
Not broken at all, currently. It's good, but its bulk and typing is defensively atrocious, for the most part, especially with life orb. It also gets hard checked by some things, like FIni (it's good, use it more). It's a little strapped for moves; it wants thunder punch to deal with some of the birds, but earthquake is better against Toxapex and some other things. It wants swords dance to break through some of the bulkier stuff, but it also wants protect to guarantee a speed boost or two, since its initial speed isn't that great. There are some cool options you can use, liked mixed Blaziken with fire blast/earthquake/close combat/protect to nab Lando-T on the switch (I forget who came up with this but whoever did, thank you, it's fun as hell) but it's not overly viable in the long term. As such, I think it's perfectly balanced. Good for offensive teams, fits well on sun, does well against some defensive backbones and some forms of offense, but overall not overbearing in the slightest.
Not broken. It's threatening, it's versatile, and nasty plot makes it a top tier threat, but it's very frail, meaning a lot of priority can easily take it out. There's also a lot of speed control running around for Regieleki, and most of them can take care of Tornadus-T pretty well. And, despite regenerator, it's not that great at staying alive while keeping itself a menace offensively; heavy duty boots means that it lacks initial power, while life orb means that it takes stealth rock damage and gets worn down real fast. Great mon overall with both offensive and utility options, but not broken currently.
Annoying as hell, but not broken. It has no coverage outside of dark pulse (lame) and mud shot (bad). It's good, don't get me wrong--it can spiral out of control real fast if your answer to it is hindered or dead, and the wisp+hex+sub set is pretty nasty. Not to mention that it can pull of disable shenanigans if you so choose. However, getting hard walled by every single relevant normal type and dark type sucks horribly for it, so it's not broken, just a bit irritating. Shouldn't be banned.
This is a weird one. As of right now I think it feels maybe not broken, but I think that's primarily because there's a lot of things in the tier that kind of just murder it that might be gone sooner or later. The main one is, of course, Zygarde, which outspeeds and threatens with thousand arrows. It's also in a different metagame outside of Zygarde than DLC1, where Garchomp and Lando-T also threaten it with strong ground moves, while Blaziken and assault vest Melmetal also work pretty well against it (assuming it's not set up already). At the same time, it's just so damn versatile, with basically infinite ways to set up and customize itself to abuse specific answers to it, and it has great bulk that allow it to take a hit or two to set up a shift gear, calm mind, or what have you. And on top of that, there's the infamous specs set, which still just wrecks shit. So I dunno. It definitely deserves a suspect after Zygarde and the like are banned, but I'm not quite sure if it's quickban material.
Excellent but balanced in this current metagame, I feel. It was broken before, but a lot of new things have popped up to give it a headache--bulky grounds, Zapdos and Moltres, and faster mons. It feels like it doesn't have the coverage to effectively deal with everything it wants, and it's still susceptible to being worn down by weather, priority, or by hazards if choice band. Sucker punch does alleviate some of the speed woes, but it's not enough to make it broken. Probably deserves a look in whatever the next metagame after bans looks like, but as of right now it's just dang good.
Not broken at all currently. All of the offensive options running around, like the new grounds, Regieleki, and Kyu-B, are making its job of never dying pretty difficult, under the right circumstance. However, some of those offensive options, like Zygarde and Kyu-B, might end up leaving, so it might be worth looking into then, as two major things that kill it pretty easily will poof out of existence, freeing it up to do its job a lot more effectively. And to be fair, it's still pretty damn unkillable despite the new threats, and it handles some of the new mons like (some) Blaziken pretty well.
Do not unban this, ever. Or suspect test it, ever. It would be broken as hell regardless of what bans took place first. It's fast, it's strong, it's surprisingly bulky, and it can hold an item. It has a spammable stab move and decent enough coverage, and overall is just way too good for OU. Please don't entertain anyone who says it deserves a suspect. It doesn't.
This one is more interesting to me. The main issue it has is the inability to hold an item; this severely limits any offensive potential, which sucks when it's primarily an offensive mon. No recovery hurts it a lot, meaning that as a wall it can be easily worn down, howl sucks for the only setup move, and although the steel typing is largely a good thing, it does have some drawbacks against the ground types that have been added. At the same time, it's very bulky (especially with the automatic +1 in defense), it's pretty strong with two good stab options (close combat and behemoth blade; although spamming steel moves isn't always the best idea, it's high BP means it's probably going to be pretty decent against most non-resists), it's pretty dang fast, and although howl sucks for setup, it is still a setup move. I'm not sure if it would be broken or unhealthy if reintroduced or not, which means it probably warrants a suspect test. However, I think that any suspect of Zamazenta-C should come AFTER all quickbans and suspects for broken mons are completed, so we're not stuck in a potential broken checks broken mindset. ("Kyu-B can't be broken, Zamazenta-C can switch in, outspeed, and kill it!" is the kind of sentiment I want to avoid.) But yes, a suspect down the line may be warranted.
Those are my thoughts. Thanks for reading, and all that
Ban, please. I'd say it's currently the most dangerous threat in the meta, with its sheer versatility and staying power. Combined with thousand arrows, it has a set that can beat almost anything. Choice band can take care of some faster threats with extreme speed and Clefable with iron tail, sub coil/ddance sets up on too many things to be easily stopped without potentially risking choice band, resttalk is annoying as hell, there's some thousand waves sets that can take out some of the more annoying things for it... and that's not even mentioning glare, which is probably what pushes it over the top, ensuring that nothing could possibly reliably check it with that 25% chance to just not move. And it also gets toxic, to boot, for some things that might not care about glare as much, or that might otherwise not take that much damage from it. I guess Fini checks it pretty well, compared to other options? Rillaboom is usually okay against it too, if it switches in early enough (although Zygarde loves the passive recovery of grassy terrain). But there's not a whole lotta consistent answers, and the situational ones just get blown away by the wrong set or parahax. Very unhealthy, very centralizing. Ban it. Another ban. Not quite as big of a problem as Zygarde, in my opinion, but dragon dance and icicle spear push it way over the edge. After just one dragon dance, it can reliably defeat anything not named Melmetal, depending on the set. Sub allows it to abuse anything that might want to status or outspeed it, roost keeps it healthy longterm against most priority, and dual wingbeat allows it to decimate Buzzwole, which is otherwise an admittedly good answer. I know icicle spear is inconsistent, but it does have a notable benefit of hitting multiple times, meaning some things that could've killed it under a substitute like some variants of Zygarde aren't reliable anymore. And fusion bolt, as everyone knows, rounds out its boltbeam coverage to let it decimate water types that might otherwise check it, like Toxapex and Fini. Ban it. Please. It's fine, for now. Hard hitting, hard to kill on the physical side, and double iron bash pairs well with trick room for bullshit flinch hax stuff, but it's outsped by almost literally everything, and is very vulnerable to chip from hazards, rocky helmet, rough skin/iron barbs, and voltturn. Its special defense is shit, so any moderately strong special attacker threatens it out unless it has assault vest, in which case it kills a lot less things than it does with choice band. I think it might warrant a closer look after the biggest threats are banned, but for now I think it's perfectly balanced, albeit definitely a top threat. I think this deserves a suspect after the quickbans are done, but shouldn't be quickbanned. It's not overwhelming, currently, but it is very very annoying. It does have 4MSS, but it can bypass all of its checks with the right set--throat chop for ghost types, drill run for Toxapex, and triple axel/ice beam for flying types/bulky grounds like Zygarde, Landorus-T, or potentially Garchomp. However, if it lacks that coverage the mons in question don't really care about anything it can do to them, and no matter what it struggles with some consistent answers--mainly Zapdos and Moltres, which have a chance to paralyze or burn it, respectively; Moltres in particular is good against it, since it laughs at stabs and mostly shrugs off triple axel or ice beam. So yeah, although it's very good, it is inherently limited and has some pretty solid checks that are on most teams, so I don't think it's broken yet. Good to look into after other things though, and see how the metagame changes inevitably effect it. Not broken at all, currently. It's good, but its bulk and typing is defensively atrocious, for the most part, especially with life orb. It also gets hard checked by some things, like FIni (it's good, use it more). It's a little strapped for moves; it wants thunder punch to deal with some of the birds, but earthquake is better against Toxapex and some other things. It wants swords dance to break through some of the bulkier stuff, but it also wants protect to guarantee a speed boost or two, since its initial speed isn't that great. There are some cool options you can use, liked mixed Blaziken with fire blast/earthquake/close combat/protect to nab Lando-T on the switch (I forget who came up with this but whoever did, thank you, it's fun as hell) but it's not overly viable in the long term. As such, I think it's perfectly balanced. Good for offensive teams, fits well on sun, does well against some defensive backbones and some forms of offense, but overall not overbearing in the slightest. Not broken. It's threatening, it's versatile, and nasty plot makes it a top tier threat, but it's very frail, meaning a lot of priority can easily take it out. There's also a lot of speed control running around for Regieleki, and most of them can take care of Tornadus-T pretty well. And, despite regenerator, it's not that great at staying alive while keeping itself a menace offensively; heavy duty boots means that it lacks initial power, while life orb means that it takes stealth rock damage and gets worn down real fast. Great mon overall with both offensive and utility options, but not broken currently. Annoying as hell, but not broken. It has no coverage outside of dark pulse (lame) and mud shot (bad). It's good, don't get me wrong--it can spiral out of control real fast if your answer to it is hindered or dead, and the wisp+hex+sub set is pretty nasty. Not to mention that it can pull of disable shenanigans if you so choose. However, getting hard walled by every single relevant normal type and dark type sucks horribly for it, so it's not broken, just a bit irritating. Shouldn't be banned. This is a weird one. As of right now I think it feels maybe not broken, but I think that's primarily because there's a lot of things in the tier that kind of just murder it that might be gone sooner or later. The main one is, of course, Zygarde, which outspeeds and threatens with thousand arrows. It's also in a different metagame outside of Zygarde than DLC1, where Garchomp and Lando-T also threaten it with strong ground moves, while Blaziken and assault vest Melmetal also work pretty well against it (assuming it's not set up already). At the same time, it's just so damn versatile, with basically infinite ways to set up and customize itself to abuse specific answers to it, and it has great bulk that allow it to take a hit or two to set up a shift gear, calm mind, or what have you. And on top of that, there's the infamous specs set, which still just wrecks shit. So I dunno. It definitely deserves a suspect after Zygarde and the like are banned, but I'm not quite sure if it's quickban material. Excellent but balanced in this current metagame, I feel. It was broken before, but a lot of new things have popped up to give it a headache--bulky grounds, Zapdos and Moltres, and faster mons. It feels like it doesn't have the coverage to effectively deal with everything it wants, and it's still susceptible to being worn down by weather, priority, or by hazards if choice band. Sucker punch does alleviate some of the speed woes, but it's not enough to make it broken. Probably deserves a look in whatever the next metagame after bans looks like, but as of right now it's just dang good. Not broken at all currently. All of the offensive options running around, like the new grounds, Regieleki, and Kyu-B, are making its job of never dying pretty difficult, under the right circumstance. However, some of those offensive options, like Zygarde and Kyu-B, might end up leaving, so it might be worth looking into then, as two major things that kill it pretty easily will poof out of existence, freeing it up to do its job a lot more effectively. And to be fair, it's still pretty damn unkillable despite the new threats, and it handles some of the new mons like (some) Blaziken pretty well. Do not unban this, ever. Or suspect test it, ever. It would be broken as hell regardless of what bans took place first. It's fast, it's strong, it's surprisingly bulky, and it can hold an item. It has a spammable stab move and decent enough coverage, and overall is just way too good for OU. Please don't entertain anyone who says it deserves a suspect. It doesn't. This one is more interesting to me. The main issue it has is the inability to hold an item; this severely limits any offensive potential, which sucks when it's primarily an offensive mon. No recovery hurts it a lot, meaning that as a wall it can be easily worn down, howl sucks for the only setup move, and although the steel typing is largely a good thing, it does have some drawbacks against the ground types that have been added. At the same time, it's very bulky (especially with the automatic +1 in defense), it's pretty strong with two good stab options (close combat and behemoth blade; although spamming steel moves isn't always the best idea, it's high BP means it's probably going to be pretty decent against most non-resists), it's pretty dang fast, and although howl sucks for setup, it is still a setup move. I'm not sure if it would be broken or unhealthy if reintroduced or not, which means it probably warrants a suspect test. However, I think that any suspect of Zamazenta-C should come AFTER all quickbans and suspects for broken mons are completed, so we're not stuck in a potential broken checks broken mindset. ("Kyu-B can't be broken, Zamazenta-C can switch in, outspeed, and kill it!" is the kind of sentiment I want to avoid.) But yes, a suspect down the line may be warranted. Those are my thoughts. Thanks for reading, and all that
My personal thoughts in decreasing order of brokennes:
Do NOT unban. Too fast and strong (while being bulky) for the OU environment. The possibility to hold an item makes it even more unhealthy. There isn't much more to say.
Do not unban. Although it can't hold an item and has a limited movepool, it is insanely bulky and, even with the lack of good set-up moves and the item, it has Rest to act as a bulky stallbreaker that stops pokemons unable to 2HKO it in their tracks and Metal Burst. Also, no complex bans/unbans are allowed so even this pokemon is not an exception.
Ultra-ban worthy. Dragon Dance (to fix the Spe) + Icicle Spear to bypass Focus Sashes is just too much on a pokemon with focused stats like this one. It can even use a mixed set because the SpA is usable. Simply put, it is too strong as a stallbreaker due to the combination of bulk (despite the weaknesses provided by the Ice typing) and power. The utility provided by Teravolt, basically a Mold Breaker, allows Kyurem to be unstoppable by Volt Absorb and Levitate users, thus further limiting possible checks. Don't forget the access to reliable recovery with Roost.
Ban. It is the strongest revenge killer ever seen in OU due to its focused offensive stats. It doesn't have to OHKO threats from full, but it has to pressure them with U-turn until they are weak enough to be killed. Sure, it does have 4MSS, but you don't know if it has the move that is able to pick the kill....until it is too late with that Spe stat. Also, Pheromosa outspeeds base 84 Spe Scarfers (if 252+ Spe) that could be otherwise viable thus hindering the variety of the OU metagame in a wrong way.
What is really scary is that Pheromosa isn't even that frail with 71/37/37 "bulk"; look at this calcs:
Ban. It doesn't have the sheer power of Kyurem-B, but it has "too much" staying power due to its natural bulk alone + lack of HP Ice to keep it in check. It has a lot of sets and, even though an unboosted Thousand Arrows doesn't hit that strong, Zygarde can boosts itself until you can't stop without losing too many resources. Also, the utility provided by Thousand Arrows helps this Dragon to cover neutrally as many threats as possible. Not to mention Glare (that affect even Grounds) that provides a lot of momentum with or without Substitute.
===> It lacks consistent answers before it sets too many boosts.
Ban after the threats above. I think that now it doesn't seem broken because there are things even worse than this starter and, if/when the above pokemon will be banned, I think that even Blaziken will be too much for OU. The crucial part is to get the first +1 Spe boost without taking damage and this is not that difficult with minimal team support. I don't think that Toxapex + Slowbro + Tapu Fini are enough to keep this thing in OU. Keep in mind that those 3 bulky Waters, although they are super common, have to compete for the same teamslot so you won't find two of them together in the same team. I am curious to see how the offensive playstyle will answer to Blaziken in the tier considering that it can even run a mixed set. It has severe 4MSS, but the key is to get the first Spe boost.
Ban after the threats above. It is always a physical-only Greninja with the added utility of Court Charge. It doesn't seem broken because there are things even worse than this Fire type. You may argue that it has 4MSS, but the problem is to figure out what moves is running before it punch holes into the opponent's team and "Libero" can even be used defensively to endure one extra hit in order to act as an emergency check.
Ban after the threats above. Too many sets with different counters on a pokemon with a good definsive typing that can reliably set-up = too much. This pokemon is so unhealthy that there is even a viable Eerie Impulse set....to check opposite Magearna (and other SpAttackers). I think that now it doesn't seem broken because there are things even worse than this Fairy. The lack of reliable recovery is not enough to keep it in OU in my opinion.
Borderline, but Healthy. It is almost mono-dimensional because it has no coverage outside of Dark Pulse (redundant), Mud Shot (low base power), WoW (good) and Snarl (low base power and it is more useful in Doubles). It might be probably the best revenge killer that OU can handle.
Base 130 Spe+ plus 252 EVs (= 394 Spe points) puts Spectrier under fully invested Dragapult, another fast Ghost type that competes with the former for the same teamslot. The ability Grim Night, basically a special Moxie, makes Spectrier hard to handle after a +1, though.
Healthy. It hits hard, but usually not with the STAB considering how poor offensive coverage Steel has. It is bulk on the physical side, but it is almost always outsped and worn down with chip damage. Also, no set-up moves. Steel-type means it can't be targeted by Toxic and Rest is still a thing towards threats that can't 2HKO it. I don't know how much heavy-stall teams can do towards it, though. I think that this thing is still healthy in OU because the viability of Trick Room is very limited (a.k.a. borderline playable due its limited effect) when compared to OU Doubles where you use 2 pokemons at once and there TR is really strong.
Healthy. It is strong, especially with the newfound Heavy-Duty Boots (and, still, if you run HDB/Assault Vest you can't use Life Orb), but it lacks consistency and some bulk to be over the edge. The lacks of consistency comes from the lack of accuracy on its main STAB Hurricane and this means that it has to choose between power and accuracy (Air Slash). Also, there are new fast Electric-type pokemons that check it well. A+ threats, maybe S-.
Healthy. Maybe nowadays it is even a little worse due to the addition of some powerful revenge killers. Annoying, as passive as ever, but safe (probably the best defensive pokemon around).
Do NOT unban. Too fast and strong (while being bulky) for the OU environment. The possibility to hold an item makes it even more unhealthy. There isn't much more to say. Do not unban. Although it can't hold an item and has a limited movepool, it is insanely bulky and, even with the lack of good set-up moves and the item, it has Rest to act as a bulky stallbreaker that stops pokemons unable to 2HKO it in their tracks and Metal Burst. Also, no complex bans/unbans are allowed so even this pokemon is not an exception. Ultra-ban worthy. Dragon Dance (to fix the Spe) + Icicle Spear to bypass Focus Sashes is just too much on a pokemon with focused stats like this one. It can even use a mixed set because the SpA is usable. Simply put, it is too strong as a stallbreaker due to the combination of bulk (despite the weaknesses provided by the Ice typing) and power. The utility provided by Teravolt, basically a Mold Breaker, allows Kyurem to be unstoppable by Volt Absorb and Levitate users, thus further limiting possible checks. Don't forget the access to reliable recovery with Roost. Ban. It is the strongest revenge killer ever seen in OU due to its focused offensive stats. It doesn't have to OHKO threats from full, but it has to pressure them with U-turn until they are weak enough to be killed. Sure, it does have 4MSS, but you don't know if it has the move that is able to pick the kill....until it is too late with that Spe stat. Also, Pheromosa outspeeds base 84 Spe Scarfers (if 252+ Spe) that could be otherwise viable thus hindering the variety of the OU metagame in a wrong way.What is really scary is that Pheromosa isn't even that frail with 71/37/37 "bulk"; look at this calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa in Grassy Terrain: 255-300 (90.1 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 171-202 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 255-301 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 252-299 (89 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 163-193 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (keep in mind that Aegoslash was nerfed this generation)
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 244-288 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (nobody runs Aegi with a Band, but it shows the "bulk" o Pheromosa towards priorities)
252 Atk Choice Band Lycanroc Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 193-228 (68.1 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 183-216 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 282-332 (99.6 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 250-294 (88.3 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 287-338 (101.4 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 171-202 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 255-301 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 252-299 (89 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 163-193 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (keep in mind that Aegoslash was nerfed this generation)
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 244-288 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (nobody runs Aegi with a Band, but it shows the "bulk" o Pheromosa towards priorities)
252 Atk Choice Band Lycanroc Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 193-228 (68.1 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 183-216 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 282-332 (99.6 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 250-294 (88.3 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 287-338 (101.4 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ban. It doesn't have the sheer power of Kyurem-B, but it has "too much" staying power due to its natural bulk alone + lack of HP Ice to keep it in check. It has a lot of sets and, even though an unboosted Thousand Arrows doesn't hit that strong, Zygarde can boosts itself until you can't stop without losing too many resources. Also, the utility provided by Thousand Arrows helps this Dragon to cover neutrally as many threats as possible. Not to mention Glare (that affect even Grounds) that provides a lot of momentum with or without Substitute.===> It lacks consistent answers before it sets too many boosts.
Ban after the threats above. I think that now it doesn't seem broken because there are things even worse than this starter and, if/when the above pokemon will be banned, I think that even Blaziken will be too much for OU. The crucial part is to get the first +1 Spe boost without taking damage and this is not that difficult with minimal team support. I don't think that Toxapex + Slowbro + Tapu Fini are enough to keep this thing in OU. Keep in mind that those 3 bulky Waters, although they are super common, have to compete for the same teamslot so you won't find two of them together in the same team. I am curious to see how the offensive playstyle will answer to Blaziken in the tier considering that it can even run a mixed set. It has severe 4MSS, but the key is to get the first Spe boost. Ban after the threats above. It is always a physical-only Greninja with the added utility of Court Charge. It doesn't seem broken because there are things even worse than this Fire type. You may argue that it has 4MSS, but the problem is to figure out what moves is running before it punch holes into the opponent's team and "Libero" can even be used defensively to endure one extra hit in order to act as an emergency check. Ban after the threats above. Too many sets with different counters on a pokemon with a good definsive typing that can reliably set-up = too much. This pokemon is so unhealthy that there is even a viable Eerie Impulse set....to check opposite Magearna (and other SpAttackers). I think that now it doesn't seem broken because there are things even worse than this Fairy. The lack of reliable recovery is not enough to keep it in OU in my opinion. Borderline, but Healthy. It is almost mono-dimensional because it has no coverage outside of Dark Pulse (redundant), Mud Shot (low base power), WoW (good) and Snarl (low base power and it is more useful in Doubles). It might be probably the best revenge killer that OU can handle.Base 130 Spe+ plus 252 EVs (= 394 Spe points) puts Spectrier under fully invested Dragapult, another fast Ghost type that competes with the former for the same teamslot. The ability Grim Night, basically a special Moxie, makes Spectrier hard to handle after a +1, though.
Healthy. It hits hard, but usually not with the STAB considering how poor offensive coverage Steel has. It is bulk on the physical side, but it is almost always outsped and worn down with chip damage. Also, no set-up moves. Steel-type means it can't be targeted by Toxic and Rest is still a thing towards threats that can't 2HKO it. I don't know how much heavy-stall teams can do towards it, though. I think that this thing is still healthy in OU because the viability of Trick Room is very limited (a.k.a. borderline playable due its limited effect) when compared to OU Doubles where you use 2 pokemons at once and there TR is really strong. Healthy. It is strong, especially with the newfound Heavy-Duty Boots (and, still, if you run HDB/Assault Vest you can't use Life Orb), but it lacks consistency and some bulk to be over the edge. The lacks of consistency comes from the lack of accuracy on its main STAB Hurricane and this means that it has to choose between power and accuracy (Air Slash). Also, there are new fast Electric-type pokemons that check it well. A+ threats, maybe S-. Healthy. Maybe nowadays it is even a little worse due to the addition of some powerful revenge killers. Annoying, as passive as ever, but safe (probably the best defensive pokemon around).
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It's not about weakening your Body Presses, it's about preventing Kommo doing what it should be doing-checking physical attackers.
Dragapult switching into Kommo is a misplay. Spectrier I covered already: either it has Hex and it's a no no no, or it has Shadow Ball and you PP stall it rofl.
Run those calcs again with an Adamant nature or a layer of Spikes up. This just proves my point actually, as Kommo has no reliable recovery and has to be in perfect condition to check Zygarde, which means Zygarde just has to force Kommo in on a layer of Spikes twice and it gets chipped into range. Lesson for the day: Always theorymon with Rocks up.
0 Atk Kommo-o Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Life Orb recoil kills)
148+ Def Kommo-o Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 172-204 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Kommo-o: 271-319 (76.5 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Kommo-o: 352-415 (99.4 - 117.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
So Kommo with EQ forces a trade with Blaziken at worst, Kommo without is setup bait. See also: Cinderace, Blacephalon, Volcarona, Gengar, Regieleki... That's a considerably longer list than Dragapult (only on the switch) and specifically Sub W-O-W Shadow Ball Mud Shot Spectrier.
SubWisp runs Hex which Kommo has no business taking.
Add Rocks, Spikes, any chip whatsoever or anything to this calc and Kommo is dead.
Catches switchins and forces them to repeatedly take hazard damage switching into Dragon Tails, defeats rival stat-uppers, hits Dragons without needing to lock into Outrage, prevents Whirlwind etc from slower mons, allows for status spreading. It's a staple of AG Zygarde, and while I agree it's a more niche choice in OU, it's hardly something that you would never run and offers a lot of useful, if slightly situational, perks on the right team. It does prevent Zygarde breaking past Tangrowth unless you're running a no-setup bait set which is wayyyy too situational.
What can I say other that no-one has ever run 252 Def. Kommo has a comparatively low HP stat so investment in HP gives it more bulk overall (you're not running it for its damage output except as a setup sweeper), you need Speed for Defoggers, you need Special Defence to take hits from attackers that you'd like to abuse Bulletproof against.
Run Iron Defence instead, that's a much better set.
I think it can work for sure, and running Clanging Scales is pretty free on Kommo-O I feel, as in combination with Body Press it has good coverage in this metagame, only missing out on fairies. Especially when you consider how popular the move substitute is in this metagame. The problem with Kommo-O though, it's that it's no longer a good electric resist, as the most common electric types atm have super effective coverage for it, like Dazzling Gleam Koko, Hurricane Zap, and Regieleki, which doesn't have coverage but it just hits too hard. There are also much more defoggers that are able to beat it like Tapu Fini, Zapdos, Moltres, Tornadus-Therian and even Tapu Koko. While it gained new niches, like checking Kartana and Heatran, it lost some others, and with Spectrier often running Hex, I think tank Chomp is usually a better choice. BUT if you do run a Kommo-O on your team, then I think Clanging Scales is a good idea.