Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[MidnightReaper]

1. What surprised you the most from these stats?
The continued decline of Zapdos-G. I think a lot of people are egregiously underestimating the offensive pressure that Thunderous Kick can put on opposing teams once Ghost types and Intimidate users have been taken care of. I'd like to also point out that Zapdos-G gets access to Throat Chop, which is an extra way to deal with weakened ghosts. In addition to this, STAB Fighting / Flying-type coverage is impeccable and nails key threats in the metagame. I think people are seeing its average 100 base speed and underestimating its potential. Please, look into this mon more.

2. Among the mons with increased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see an increase in usage?
Garchomp, easily. This Pokemon has so many fantastic qualities that make it unpredictable and extremely splashable onto many different team archetypes. Need something that can punish physical attackers while setting up hazards and hitting hard back? Garchomp time. Want a physical attacker who both hard counter Regieleki while also running mixed Fire Blast to yeet Ferrothorn? Time for Garchomp. Need a solid set-up sweeper with great STAB moves and solid coverage? Garchomp. I predict Garchomp will break into the top 10, or at least reach as high as 12 in usage.

3. Among the mons with decreased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see a decrease in usage?
Regieleki, this Pokemon has not acclimated well to the Ground heavy metagame, especially with Landorus-T's prominence as the #1 choice and Garchomp's continued rise to fame. STAB Electric with Normal-type coverage is just not cutting it in a metagame absolutely dominated by both Ground and Ghost types. While its double screens set and access to Rapid Spin still give it a usable niche in OU, the metagame will continue to adapt to it even better.

4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
Zapdos-G for the reasons that I mentioned above. Easily the most underrated Pokemon right now.

5. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
Pheromosa. Now, I know people might bite my head off here, but I think the only reason that people are so freaked out by this Pokemon right now is because of the Quiver Dance set discovery still being relatively new. There are many options to handle it, and while I still think it will always be S or A+ ranked, I don't think it will stay as high as it is forever. In the top 10? Most likely, but not where it's at currently.

6. How do you feel about the most common offensive mons in the tier, and how do they impact the tier?
I feel as though right now the tier is what Gen 7's OU metagame should have been. The removal of Z-moves as an offensive option was nothing but a blessing for so many different types of strategies and opened up a lot of room for experimentation, and (my favorite thing in all of Pokemon) using lower-tiered Pokemon in OU.

7. How do you feel about the most common defensive mons in the tier, and what are some common defensive cores you see?
I honestly have no opinion on this.

8. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
I feel that Ghost-type offense as a whole (not just Spectrier) including the necessity for Ghost or Dark coverage places a strain on teams, but that it will acclimate in time.

9. What are your favorite mons to use in OU right now?
Honestly, a lot of non-OU Pokemon such as Stonjourner, Audino, Hatterene, Shiftry and Torkoal. If we're specifically talking about OU Pokemon however, I would say that Melmetal, Zapdos-G, Urshifu-SS, and Heatran are my current favorites to use!

10. I hope you all have a wonderful rest of the day :)
You too :)

 

[earl]

1. What surprised you the most from these stats?I think a lot of people are egregiously underestimating the offensive pressure that Thunderous Kick can put on opposing teams once Ghost types and Intimidate users have been taken care of.

Gapdos appreciates Intimidate users being alive for the attack boost from defiant.

Regardless, the omnipresence of Zapdos/Moltres makes it hard for Gapdos to be truly threatening in the balance matchup, and that 100 speed (alongside Brave Bird chip) makes it more than easy enough to revenge kill for offense. I never struggled against it when I laddered up to 1950 or so and I think the drop is well deserved. If I wanted a nuclear Fighting-type with a spammable secondary STAB, Urshifu is right there.

 

[musiquepkmn]

Gapdos appreciates Intimidate users being alive for the attack boost from defiant.

Regardless, the omnipresence of Zapdos/Moltres makes it hard for Gapdos to be truly threatening in the balance matchup, and that 100 speed (alongside Brave Bird chip) makes it more than easy enough to revenge kill for offense. I never struggled against it when I laddered up to 1950 or so and I think the drop is well deserved. If I wanted a nuclear Fighting-type with a spammable secondary STAB, Urshifu is right there.

Gapdos is just another ultra-powerful breaker with unwallable stabs, like Aegislash, Crawdaunt, and to a lesser extent Gengar, Bisharp, and Galarian Moltres. All bring something great to the table that prompt niche usage, like Gapdos's and Bisharp's defog punishing, Aegislash's defensive utility, Gengar's speed, and Galarian Moltres's unpredictability but they are too niche (and still suffer from 1 or 2 hard counters) to see consistent usage, unless they beat so much of the metagame that building around them becomes consistently rewarding.

 

[Finchinator]

I think it makes the most sense to tackle Pheromosa first if anything happens to be suspected.

Pheromosa's Quiver Dance set alone makes it one of the strongest Pokemon in the tier, but then you pair it with the potential for the other sets and it's really impossible to cover without resorting to constant usage of Toxapex or Clefable, which obviously alone is insufficient. Nobody whatsoever is trying to resort to this (not to mention it is possible to bypass Toxapex with QD + Shock Wave sets).

Yes, Spectrier is dangerous and I agree it should be looked into if all else holds as well, but the limitations it applies on teambuilding are the main selling point of suspecting it above others right now and we are starting to realize Pheromosa becoming adaptable enough to mimic that characteristic itself in the metagame, warping how we approach it in building as well. I feel like Pheromosa is simply the more problematic of the two because of this and I have felt this way ever since the Quiver Dance set became prevalent. I do believe we should keep a close eye on Spectrier, however.

This does beg the question as to why we shouldn’t just remove Pheromosa to solve this problem instead of either Spectrier or Urshifu. I strongly disagree with that course of action. First, getting rid of Pheromosa does not actually solve the problem I noted earlier about needing at least 2+ slots for Urshifu and Spectrier – one could even argue it makes it worse. Where I think the metagame still has room to adapt to Pheromosa, I think we have come as far as we can regarding defensive counterplay for Spectrier and Urshifu. Urshifu has had months to develop and we have the answers we have for it, and unless we see an influx of Incineror or something else from lower tiers, I feel we have come as far as we can to handle Spectrier. In the alternative, I think Pheromosa's checks only stand to get better if one of Spectrier/Urshifu are removed.

I love a lot of the points you bring up and I think your post has a ton of accurate metagame insight, but I disagree with the core of this argument and I do not think it is in-line with how we approach tiering. You cannot base your priorities for handling the current metagame on potential adaptation of the future metagame; this is essentially a more eloquent way of applying theorymon to arguments. I do not even necessarily think your theory would be wrong, but rather that it should not apply here whatsoever.

Perhaps the case for Pheromosa is less black-and-white than Spectrier (and Urshifu, but I do not view Urshifu as being on the same level as these two yet) moving forward if your logic holds true, but the current picture of counterplay is bleak and limited, which I do not believe even you deny. Considering how punishing Pheromosa is coupled with it being as restrictive as anything else, which I tried to touch on above, leads me to believe that it is the most pressing issue right now. I feel like Pheromosa makes the tier close to unplayable honestly.

 

[Red Raven]

Well, here's my answers

1. What surprised you the most from these stats?

being number one. I feel like it's pretty meh this generation so I'm still surprised it is among the top ten

using a defensive set. I'm legit surprised at this one then again, I guess I should have seen it coming


2. Among the mons with increased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see an increase in usage?

Without the right prediction or Blissey teleport, this thing is a nightmare to switch into and take out. Ice beam, thunderbolt + stabs are more than enough to pressure over have the game

I said it before, future sight just catapults this pokemon to new levels of annoyance

Just a reliable bird. It's burn is sometimes even more valuable than Zapdo's paralysis


3. Among the mons with decreased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see a decrease in usage?

This was my same answer as before and I will say it again. I'm still surprised it is in the top ten but honestly, I think this would continue to drop in usage as the game just adapted to it

Not surprised. The other birds are more useful because of the defensive utility. There is a reason why Staraptor isn't that good in ou and this one just proves that

4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?

This thing was a nightmare to switch into without a steel type last gen. I think this is the same as well and it having the ability to check Dark Urshifu when scarfed is incredibly useful

5. . What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?

I just don't understand why this thing is even in the top ten. It's intimidate isn't as useful anymore and as a defensive flying type, the birds does that better. It does get a role compression but it is incredibly prone to being worn down. I think it is overrated but I don't think the usage will drop

6. How do you feel about the most common offensive mons in the tier, and how do they impact the tier?

Absolute bullshit. Buzzwall is now almost mandatory otherwise Dark Urshifu will literally blow a hole in your team. Pheromosa is even more bullshit as you can never tell what set it's running until it reveals itself. Despite the decreased usage, Spectrier is still annoying as hell. Magearna with it's annoying shift gear stored power makes me wanna dismantle that robot mon. Garchomp just threatens to rip apart entire teams after a swords dance if they lack physical priority

7. How do you feel about the most common defensive mons in the tier, and what are some common defensive cores you see?

Buzzwall + bird / Blissey. It's no surprise as Buzzwall just straight up walls many of the most threatening physical mons while special attackers get walled by Blissey

8. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?

Somehow I feel like building a team against Zygarde and Kyurem was easier. Every single game I have to put Buzzwall since it is the only pokemon I can think of that walls Urshifu and doesn't instantly lose to swords dance Garchomp. In short, it is still restrictive and I find it unhealthy as I still have only four mons to choose from with two being taken up by Buzzwall and my choice of Spectrier counter, which are very limited on its own

9. What are your favorite mons to use in OU right now?

I just love it when I go up against teams without any physical priority or unaware Clefable

This one has definitely overtaken Zapdos as my favorite bird. I feel like Moltres' presence instantly invalidates Melmetal on a team. It can just spam roost as it fishes for burns, doesn't instantly die to thunder punch and once Melmetal is burned, it can shoot flames at it

Somehow I find this one to be my current favorite bulky water. It doesn't instantly lose to a non stab unboosted grass move and has access to stealth rock while at the same time, not instantly dying to Tapu Koko

This is almost a requirement on every team I make. It completely walls Garchomp and Landorus and threatens to poison any switch ins, especially the birds. It also stuffs Urshifu, which is always welcome

Good old Tyranitar. Being one of the only few pokemon that counters Spectrier, it's just fun to use it especially since I use a sand team as one of my main teams

 

[Katy]

Hello everyone, I wanna talk more about the different offensive archetypes in SSOU because there are plenty of them running around in the current metagame and I want to talk about them why they are worth trying or why they could face issues in the current metagame in Sword & Shield OU!

To kick this thread off, I want to talk about Trick Room first.

Trick Room in SSOU:

What I've recognized is that Trick Room isn't that much used like it used to be in the past, as I feel it has a really tough time currently with metagame staples like Pheromosa, Spectrier, Urshifu-S and Magearna running the place currently. It's hard to set the Trick Room, when every team has at least 1 of the aforementioned Pokemon to tackle the setters immediately. Even Taunt versions of Heatran and Tapu Fini can shut down a TR-setter with taunt and Hydreigon also flourishes in usage due to how common Spectrier is right now.

The Trick Room Setters and Abusers are usually:



But they all face the 1 issue, that Pheromosa, Spectrier and Urshifu-S are really common and they are able to threaten them from the get go.
Magearna is a more safe approach to Pheromosa and Spectrier due to how bulky it is, but it still faces the weakness of getting Taunted by Heatran to shut down Trick Room-settings. I feel like because the Metagame is so fast and offensive that archetype has a tough time currently to thrive and it doesn't feel as reliable as it was. Another big part is the fact that people start to calm down with the new toys they've been given, which results in less and less Trick Room-usage on the ladder.

Rain in SSOU:



Rain currently is a strong archetype with plenty of new useful tool it gaines, be it Heavy-Duty Boots Zapdos with Weather Ball to reliably tackle bulky Rock- and Ground-types or with Hurricane which furthers Zapdos breaking potential in rain. Thunder is also a high BP STAB move and hits non-resists like a truck as Zapdos profits from a high SpA-stat. Tornadus-T is also a key member and finds itself in various rain teams with its new toy in Nasty Plot which can turn Tornadus-T into a deadly breaker with nearly unresistet coverage-options in Hurricane, Heat Wave, and Focus Blast with the latter being able to tackle strong Steel- and Rock-types such as Heatran and Tyranitar for super effective damage.

Rain in general is thriving in usage because it has plenty of great abusers and plenty of utility options in Ferrothorn and Swampert, which gives these teams sturdy resists to common attacks like electric and grass. Furthermore Ferrothorn and Swampert both can lay out Stealth Rocks and Swampert even has Flip Turn to bring a partner in safely. Such partners are Barraskewda, Urshifu-R, Zapdos, Tornadus-T, and occosionally Kingdra / Azumarill.


Hail-Veil in SSOU:



With Arctozolt gaining the Hidden Ability Slush Rush Hail-Veil-teams are really popular not only on ladder but also in Tournament games.
Ninetales-Alola is the Setter of choice with shutting down many Pokemon with the incredible annoying Hypnosis, to grant its teammates a free setup opportunity. A newly found member is Arctozolt as mentioned above with its newly gained HA, it sees usage on these kind of teams as well. With a hard hitting Bolt Beak and aother common attacks like Icicle Crash and Freeze-Dry it profits from a physical variant of the so called superb BoltBeam-coverage and Freeze-Dry hits everything, which is able to resist its coverage pretty hard, such as Swampert, Kingdra, and occosionally Quagsire. I feel like this archetype with partners such as Spectrier, Cinderace, Magearna, and other great setup Pokemon such as Garchomp, Urshifu-S, and Suicune it will definitely be a great Hyper Offensive options on the ladder and I feel like this archetype might have potential in the and is worth to explore more.

Sand in SSOU:



Sand is really an interesting part of the metagame, as it is always relaible and conistent at what it does. Teammates such as tyranitar which is the Setter and Excadrill and Dracozolt, which profit from each otehrs breaking power are really great options, Even found its way in OU once again. I feel like Dracozolt and Excadrill combined with other teampartners like Urshifu-S, Ferrothorn, and Slowking are great options. Slowking and Ferrothorn can tackle the 1 big issue Sand has and this is Rain. But with Slowking threatening such abusers Urshifu-R and Kingdra with a Future Sight and being able to switch out slowly via Teleport it is a great support option for Sand. Furthermore Ferrothorn can tackle Barraskewda, which is highly threatening to that archetype. I feel that Sand is very strong and consistent in the current metagame and is in my opinion the second best archetype behind rain, when it comes to weather reliant ones.

General Conclusion on Offensive Playstyles:

I think that both, rain and sand, are currently very strong in the metagame, as they have the tools to tackle their weak spots with utilizing great teammates which are listed above. Trick Room fell down in usage, as the metagame currently is too fast paced and too offensive to reliably set the Rooms but it can easily revive itself, as soon as a great metagame trend happens, however I feel like the usage will stay in the lower end of the card, but it could get a slight uptick.
Hail-Veil on the other hand seems like an archetype to dive further into with Arctozolts BoltBeam-Coverage and its Hidden Ability in Slush Rush and a good setter in Ninetales-Alola.

General Metagame conclusion:

easily is the best Pokemon in the tier with reliable Sets and plenty of options to counter its checks with the Quiver Dance-Set and even the Choice Band-set. QD profits from a strong Shock Wave, which wears down its check in Moltres, Tapu Fini, and Toxapex, whereas Poison Jab found its way on the CB-Set to dish out a lot of damage to Tapu Fini and Clefable.
It is such an awkward Pokemon with having plenty of issues currently, first of all, its issue lies on the 4MSS, it can't hit everything, what it wants to hit and second of all, its the nature, being Jolly means you outpace certain threats such as Spectrier but you lack the immediate breaking power. And with the metagame that fast and offensive it has a tough time to come in all the time, as it has a low initial Speed being 80 which means it gets oputsped naturally by a lot of Pokemon. I just feel this Pokemon doesn't have the potential to be a top tier threat right now, but still will find a place on some teams with support for it.
this Pokemon has a great typing, however it struggles to break consistently because it lacks the reliable recovery in form of Roost so dishing out hard hitting Brave Birds hurts it more often than not. Its being held back by this fact and it just doesn't have a great time in OU with plenty of Pokemon, which are able to wear it down easily be it with entry hazards or with occosional Rocky Helmet-chip.

Thank you for reading and have a great day everyone!​

 

[by the book]

Back to spamming Toxapex and Clefable as that's clearly all I want the metagame to evolve into~

You forgot Mandibuzz. Thanks for this post, though, gave me some great ideas!

I haven’t seen anyone echo my perspective on the metagame as of yet, so I thought I’d throw my two cents in.

Spectrier


Spectrier does not appear to be limiting at first glance, with its premier checks being Mandibuzz, Tyranitar and Blissey. If you’re willing to dip into lower tiers, you can get away with Hydreigon, Incineroar, Obstagoon or Zarude or Scrafty the counter, which all check Spectrier nicely. OU does have other situational checks like SpDef Unaware Clefable, Urshifu-SS and AV Magearna/Melmetal that can come in once or twice to check certain sets, plus some options to revenge kill it (Triple Axel Pheromosa, Jolly/Scarf Dragapult, etc).

There are three problems with Spectrier notwithstanding everything I just said. First, its ability, power and speed tier mandate the use of a sturdy Ghost resist in a way other ghost types do not. While running a Ghost resist was always a noteworthy part of your teambuilding checklist even in prior metagames, Gengar, Aegislash and even Dragapult simply do not snowball out of control the way that Spectrier can (and often does) if you do not run dedicated defensive answers to them. This is the case even if Gengar/Dragapult ran the exact same HexWisp sets that Spectrier often runs. It isn’t any single trait that pushes Spectrier over the edge, but arguably the totality of what it offers that does so.

Second, most of these checks are flawed in some way. They are either forced to check other prominent threats and get worn down easily (Mandibuzz, Tyranitar), are somewhat passive and create free turns for the opponent (Rest Tyranitar), or are taken advantage of by Spectrier itself (Blissey). You could argue that the pokemon best equipped to handle Spectrier are actually the lower-tier mons I noted earlier, and while I am all for experimentation and breaking away from conventional habits, these pokemon do not see consistent usage in OU for a reason and forcing them onto teams to check Spectrier is problematic itself.

Urshifu


The third issue I have with Spectrier is actually the same issue I have with Urshifu, and it lays the foundation for why I don’t think Pheromosa could be viewed as problematic in the future. Put simply, while each pokemon has viable checks in the metagame, they each require those checks to be tailored in a way that makes them worse against the other, and vice versa. When you say you need a “Dark” resist in this metagame, you are almost always referring to an Urshifu resist, which consist of Buzzwole, Mandibuzz+Toxapex, or Physically Defensive Clefable. Every other Spectier answer loses to Urshifu, and every Urshifu answer bar Mandibuzz loses to Spectrier. Even Mandibuzz can ultimately be overwhelmed with burn chip damage to a point that it doesn’t check Urshifu as well, and if you don’t run Mandibuzz then you have resigned yourself to dedicating 2+ slots on your team just for these two pokemon. Both of these two pokemon have less than a half-dozen checks which must be tailor made to check them specifically, in a way that few other pokemon in the tier (if any) equally require.

Pheromosa


For at least these reasons, I feel we are playing the Spectrier/Urshifu metagame more than the Pheromosa metagame, which has serious implications when it comes to Pheromosa’s impact on the tier. Pheromosa is undoubtedly a great pokemon and it can viably run several different sets, but the issue is that most of the checks you need to cover Pheromosa are made worse by the presence of Spectrier and Urshifu. SpDef Clefable checks QD Pheromosa nicely and soft-checks Spectrier, but loses to Urshifu. Buzzwole checks physical Pheromosa and Urshifu, but loses to Spectrier. Toxapex checks any two of these depending on whether it’s physical or special, but can never check all 3 well at all. The other checks to QD Pheromosa such as Aegislash, G-Slowking, even Victini or AV Magearna are just not as viable at the moment due to being poor options against Spectrier and Urshifu. Without even one of Spectrier or Urshifu, you could probably get away with running a core like Buzzwole+Toxapex, or Mandibuzz+SpDef Clefable, and so on, without getting inevitably and consistently overwhelmed by having to check all three.

This does beg the question as to why we shouldn’t just remove Pheromosa to solve this problem instead of either Spectrier or Urshifu. I strongly disagree with that course of action. First, getting rid of Pheromosa does not actually solve the problem I noted earlier about needing at least 2+ slots for Urshifu and Spectrier – one could even argue it makes it worse. Where I think the metagame still has room to adapt to Pheromosa, I think we have come as far as we can regarding defensive counterplay for Spectrier and Urshifu. Urshifu has had months to develop and we have the answers we have for it, and unless we see an influx of Incineror or something else from lower tiers, I feel we have come as far as we can to handle Spectrier. In the alternative, I think Pheromosa's checks only stand to get better if one of Spectrier/Urshifu are removed.

Second, I think it’s worth looking into what each of these mons adds to the tier. Spectrier really doesn’t add anything more than it takes – there are other ghost types that can take its place, and it tends to function as a self-sufficient breaker for itself anyway. Urshifu probably adds as much as it takes from the tier, but at least it is a nice progress-forcing breaker that I don’t think is independently broken itself. Pheromosa I feel adds a lot to the tier, and I think at this point in the metagame it would be a big mistake to get rid of it. It supports frail/slower breakers with U-turn support to get into play, removes hazards, and helps revenge kill or offensively pressure things like Cinderace, Magearna, +1 Spe Blaziken, Tornadus-T and even opposing Modest Pheromosa with its speed tier. It is precisely this role compression that I find overwhelmingly healthy for the tier (in a way that I don’t feel is necessarily broken), and without its presence I feel the tier will struggle a ton to defensively handle these aforementioned breakers in the long-haul. If you already want some or all of these pokemon to get banned as is, then this probably won’t resonate with you, but I personally do not want to see 5-7 more bans if they could have been avoided by a potentially more optimal order of operations.

Public opinion probably isn’t on my side with this one, but that’s cool, it’s just my opinion as of right now. I enjoy the current metagame, but if there must be imminent tiering action then I would personally suggest Spectrier > Urshifu > Pheromosa, or at least Spectrier first, for all the aforementioned reasons about increased breathing room in teambuilding.

Just want to say that I really like your post. One thing I like about it is that it avoids the typical trap of describing the Pokemon before talking about its metagame position.

Every single time someone posts about Spectrier or Slowbro or whatever, they'll say something like,

"This Pokemon's access to Regenerator, Teleport, and Future Sight make it one of the best options for bulky offense teams. Teleport gains its team momentum because you can Future Sight, then Teleport on the next turn..."

and also then something like "Regenerator means that coupled with its amazing/solid/spectacular/[insert unnecessary descriptive adjective here], Slowbro can..."
...Just a laundry list of qualities with the actual point at the end.

I have no idea why, but about 60-70% of the longer posts discussing individual Pokemon in this thread follow this format. More than half the post ends up being things that we all know already and are repeated even if the post immediately above just did that.

You avoided that entirely and got right to the meat of your argument. Well worth a read, and saves everybody time. Cheers.

pls ban pheromosa tho

 

[SwaggySammy44]

1. What surprised you the most from these stats?
2. Among the mons with increased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see an increase in usage?
3. Among the mons with decreased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see a decrease in usage?
4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
5. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
6. How do you feel about the most common offensive mons in the tier, and how do they impact the tier?
7. How do you feel about the most common defensive mons in the tier, and what are some common defensive cores you see?
8. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
9. What are your favorite mons to use in OU right now?
10. I hope you all have a wonderful rest of the day :)

Alright, let's do this.

1. Definately Glowking. I actually used Glowking for a little bit very early in the new meta (like, the first week,) and while i found it to be ok, I dropped it in favor of slowbro shortly after. I think it has potential, with good bulk and SpA as well as a fantastic move pool. It'll play a different role from the original slowtwins due to it not having teleport, but it can still be pretty good. I just didn't expect it to rise to OU.

2. Garchomp will probably continue to rise, especially now that zygarde is gone. My favorite set is SD but it can also function as a mixed attacker or a stealth rock setter. Slowbro is also likely to rise with how good futureport is. I'm honestly surprised that thing is outside the top 20.

3. Regileki, easily. It has a good niche because of its speed and powerful STABs, but its just to hard for an electric type with no coverage to find a place in a meta with plenty of good ground types.

4. I honestly can't believe Dragonite is all the way down at #40. HDB+Multiscale basically guarantees it gets a turn to dragon dance, and it has great coverage. It was outclassed by Kyub and Zygarde, so now that they're gone, Dragonite will likely rise. I also think dragapult should be higher, as it is able to outspeed and ohko non-scarfed Spectrier, and can hit it through sub.

5. I like Swampert, flip turn is great, it's got good bulk and it checks a lot of things, but honestly, I think #16 is a bit to high. Being a defensive mon without recover means it gets worn down easily and neither of its abilities are that good.

6. I did a post on this before where I talked about this, right now the tier is dominated by the big 3 of Pheromosa, Spectrier and Urshifu. These guys are easily the 3 best offensive threats in the tier. Magearna is also very dangerous, having multiple great sets and basically a better version of spectrier's snowballing ability. Cinderace and Nidoking are also great.

7. Clefable and Toxapex are still the top defensive pokemon, both are great to use and very annoying to play against. The Kanto birds are great, they check plenty of things and can spread status with their abilities. I think those two (sorry Articuno) are one of the main reasons Blaziken fell off. I also like Buzzwall a lot, even after Zygarde got banned. It's arguably the best Urshifu check in the tier, it can check Garchomp and Lando with ice punch and because of its high attack stat it can both take hits and dish them out.

8. I don't like how restricting spectrier is. It sucks that if you don't dedicate a slot on your team to a ghost resist, you'll essentially autolose to any team that runs spectrier. Other than that, I don't really have much of a problem with team building. Most of the other big threats allow you to get somewhat creative with how you check them, or they have multiple sets like Pheromosa, and you can't really game plan for them.

9. Cinderace is fun as hell to use, its fantastic coverage and STAB everything from libero makes it one of my favorites. Nidoking is a rising star and another favorite of mine. I did a post on Nido before where I go into detail, but basically, Its sheer force moves hit like a truck and it has winning matchups against a bunch of the good defensive mons in the tier. I also like Dragonite a lot for reasons stated above, and slowbro because regen futureport.

10. Thanks, and happy holidays!

 

[Cri]

I found out while making teams that this Nidoking's Revenger set is amazing!


name: Revenger
move 1: Earth Power
move 2: Sludge Wave
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Fire Blast
item: Choice Specs
ability: Sheer Force
nature: Modest
EVS: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe

And hoping to reserve it for OU analysis:)

 

[YeetYolk07]

I found out while making teams that this Nidoking's Revenger set is amazing!


name: Revenger
move 1: Earth Power
move 2: Sludge Wave
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Fire Blast
item: Choice Specs
ability: Sheer Force
nature: Modest
EVS: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe

And hoping to reserve it for OU analysis:)

scarf is a crazy revenger too

 

[Cri]

scarf is a crazy revenger too

yeah against Tapus..etc. But mainly I built an analysis and posted it but got locked because obviously reservations are closed now. And for my build, specs is better.

 

[musiquepkmn]

I found out while making teams that this Nidoking's Revenger set is amazing!


name: Revenger
move 1: Earth Power
move 2: Sludge Wave
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Fire Blast
item: Choice Specs
ability: Sheer Force
nature: Modest
EVS: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe

And hoping to reserve it for OU analysis:)

In mostly every case Life Orb outclasses Specs. You have around the same damage output except now you can't be taken advantage of by Slowbro and other regenerator mons who can switch in once and then regen out into an immunity, which to Ground and Poison is on nearly every team. Of course, if you click Ice Beam or Fire Blast bro resists it and can Scald or set up a Future Sight on you. The only relevant damage different that I can think of off the top of my head is 100% chance to 2HKO Max Max Calm AV Glowking versus 78.5% chance to 2HKO, but the fact that you are specs means they can just pivot out into a Hydreigon or Corviknight or something and gain everything back from Regenerator.

Edit: Also, you mention the nickname "Revenger," but unless it's a Movie/Culture reference I'm not aware of Modest Nidoking with no bulk has very little revenge killing prowess, seeing as so many mons are faster and can OHKO/nearly OHKO (and render King useless). Scarf Nidoking works as a revenger better as it still dishes out damage and is faster so it doesn't need to take a hit.

please correct me if i missed something somewhere

 

[Cri]

In mostly every case Life Orb outclasses Specs. You have around the same damage output except now you can't be taken advantage of by Slowbro and other regenerator mons who can switch in once and then regen out into an immunity, which to Ground and Poison is on nearly every team. Of course, if you click Ice Beam or Fire Blast bro resists it and can Scald or set up a Future Sight on you. The only relevant damage different that I can think of off the top of my head is 100% chance to 2HKO Max Max Calm AV Glowking versus 78.5% chance to 2HKO, but the fact that you are specs means they can just pivot out into a Hydreigon or Corviknight or something and gain everything back from Regenerator.

That is known, after studying this.. they fear u would fire blast corvi so they switch to slowbro, and then u use sludge wave, they go to Corvi and so forth. And Nido ends up losing health from life orb.
plus since both cases depend on prediction, so specs is better generally.

 

[musiquepkmn]

That is known, after studying this.. they fear u would fire blast corvi so they switch to slowbro, and then u use sludge wave, they go to Corvi and so forth. And Nido ends up losing health from life orb.

Nidoking doesn't lose health from Life Orb because of its Sheer Force Ability, meaning Life Orb has 0 drawbacks whatsoever and you can keep sitting there firing off attacks and they're the ones taking damage from Rocks and your attacks. With Specs once you miss that first prediction it's over, but with Life Orb the Corv/Bro has to switch out again (taking more chip) fearing your coverage move

 

[Ruft]

That is known, after studying this.. they fear u would fire blast corvi so they switch to slowbro, and then u use sludge wave, they go to Corvi and so forth. And Nido ends up losing health from life orb.

Nidoking doesn't lose health from Life Orb thanks to Sheer Force. Life Orb is almost always better than Choice Specs on Nidoking for that reason.

 

[Celticpride]

Some thoughts on more niche pokemon that I've been experimenting with:

Victini has a good defensive typing, and can be useful attacking from either side. Like most Fire types, it benefits from heavy duty boots. On the physical side, I've been running V-Create / Bolt Strike / ZenButt, with U-Turn as a last slot. On the special side, Blue Flare / Psychic / Scorching Sands is surprisingly effective, hitting Heatran along with threatening Tyranitar. I've tried Searing Shot over Blue Flare, but Searing Shot really doesn't have enough PP to justify the burn chance. For a last slot on Special-based Tini, Future Sight is a cool technique. In fact, I've found Victini and Tapu Lele are both very effective Future Sight users (shoutout Dread for the Future Sight Lele tip). Future Sight under Psychic Terrain in particular is a hugely underappreciated threat. Lele has a lot of set versatility in general, being able surprise checks with coverage and Choice sets.

Tapu Koko and Zapdos are the king of the Electrics, but Thundy-I and Thundy-T certainly have their place. Thundy-I with Heavy Duty Boots, Prankster and TWave returns as a emergency sweeper stop, crippling threats like Phero, Scarf Spect and Barra. I've tried a couple different sets, with the most useful being NP + TWave + 2 attacks and a mixed set with Knock, TWave, TBolt and a free slot. With Thundy-T I've found some success with an Agility set, with Thunderbolt / Focus Blast / Sludge Wave or other coverage. On a Rain team, Agility w/ Thunder, Weather Ball and Focus Blast is a decent set, providing an Electric immunity as well. I thought Raikou would do better due to ganining Scald and a non-restricted Aura Sphere, but as of right now its underwhelmed. In the event Phero and / or Spect leave the tier, Raikou might find a bit more of a foothold but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Togekiss is a great member on balance and bulky offense teams, with a set of Air Slash / Roost / Nasty Plot / Heal Bell proving to be valuable. It can stallbreak pretty effectively, provides a solid defensive typing, and Heal Bell support is hugely underrated. Heal Bell allows me to play a little more fast and loose with wallbreakers that are otherwise crippled by Scald, TWave and other status, and give them another shot at beating up on fat walls. Another somewhat underrated Fairy is Tapu Bulu . Rilla is a much better wallbreaker and the priority Grassy Glide provides is well worth it in a lot of situations. Bulu excels over Rilla defensively though due to its Fairy typing and access to Horn Leech and Synthesis. A bulky SD set with Leftovers enjoys a lot of passive recovery even in the event it forgoes Synthesis, and an Assault Vest set is incredibly bulky and can net some recovery via Horn Leech. I have found Bulu a lot less notable in the post-Zygarde meta, but it can still play a decent role.

 

[zelda333]

As for a sample core, I'd probably go with:

Kyurem + Rillaboom + Dragonite

Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power



Rillaboom @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- U-turn
- Grassy Glide
- Knock Off



Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dual Wingbeat
- Earthquake
- Roost

Just wanted to say I've been using this core to great success in the 1800's. Specs kyu is just insane, and I don't usually find myself wanting another move on dnite--roost beats sucker quite nicely as well. For the last three I took a bird of my own (defensive moltres), and from there mostly tried to patch up the urshifu/spectrier weaknesses. I actually love SpDef unaware clef for spectrier, and it's also a way less obvious switch in to special moves in general than something like Blissey, which usually allows for a free turn. I also use aromatherapy on it since it's losing magic guard, and can also heal a potential status on rillaboom if it's u-turning on the birds. I had calm mind fini as a 6th but that left the team still a bit weak to urshifu, so I think I'm gonna try buzzwole in that spot for a while. Thanks for the idea here!

 

[YeetYolk07]

yeah against Tapus..etc. But mainly I built an analysis and posted it but got locked because obviously reservations are closed now. And for my build, specs is better.

In mostly every case Life Orb outclasses Specs. You have around the same damage output except now you can't be taken advantage of by Slowbro and other regenerator mons who can switch in once and then regen out into an immunity, which to Ground and Poison is on nearly every team. Of course, if you click Ice Beam or Fire Blast bro resists it and can Scald or set up a Future Sight on you. The only relevant damage different that I can think of off the top of my head is 100% chance to 2HKO Max Max Calm AV Glowking versus 78.5% chance to 2HKO, but the fact that you are specs means they can just pivot out into a Hydreigon or Corviknight or something and gain everything back from Regenerator.

Edit: Also, you mention the nickname "Revenger," but unless it's a Movie/Culture reference I'm not aware of Modest Nidoking with no bulk has very little revenge killing prowess, seeing as so many mons are faster and can OHKO/nearly OHKO (and render King useless). Scarf Nidoking works as a revenger better as it still dishes out damage and is faster so it doesn't need to take a hit.

please correct me if i missed something somewhere

Yeah I think you got pretty much everything. Specs is extremely reliant on prediction and it's damage output is almost the same. I'd stick to life orb or scarf for now.

 

[musiquepkmn]

Yeah I think you got pretty much everything. Specs is extremely reliant on prediction and it's damage output is almost the same. I'd stick to life orb or scarf for now.

Real Gamers use Choice Band i mean its attack is higher than its special attack that must mean its a fisickle attacker rite???????????? I mean by sister ran a set of Earthquake Poison Jab Bulldoze Dragon Pulse and she beat my Weavile (Night Slash Swords Dance Substitute Protect) 1v1 so that must mean that its good you guys dont no it but CHoice Banded Nidoking with Earthquake Poison Jab Fire Punch and Dynamic PUnch is goning to be the beninginging of a new era

Yea I agree i ran a Choice Band Conk back in the day, I think I learned my lesson about how good abilities are.

 

[kosecant]

Real Gamers use Choice Band i mean its attack is higher than its special attack that must mean its a fisickle attacker rite???????????? I mean by sister ran a set of Earthquake Poison Jab Bulldoze Dragon Pulse and she beat my Weavile (Night Slash Swords Dance Substitute Protect) 1v1 so that must mean that its good you guys dont no it but CHoice Banded Nidoking with Earthquake Poison Jab Fire Punch and Dynamic PUnch is goning to be the beninginging of a new era

Yea I agree i ran a Choice Band Conk back in the day, I think I learned my lesson about how good abilities are.

Speaking of conk, AV guts is a pretty solid check to pheramosa, and can easily be EV'd to live 2 modest specs shadow balls from spectrier, while also not fearing burns from any sub wisp set. Urshifu is also scared off by Mach punch, and ground type coverage from earthquake is as good as it's ever been. I'll probably experiment a bit with conk and report back later

 

[alkazoth]

@ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eerie Spell
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Bomb
- Future Sight

I highly suggest everyone try out av glowking. It can wall almost every special threat out there, the most notable one being qd mosa. With insane spdef and regen to heal on the switch out, you can shut down lots of special sweepers your team might otherwise have trouble with. It can check qd mosa, corv, molt, zap, koko, the latis, the tapus, mage, specs pult, and more. It's not a replacement for blissey in terms of being a special wall tho, since I found that bliss works much better on defensive teams, while glowking fits nicely on bulky offensive cores. Glowking pairs very well with corviknight (CorviGlow, the new SkarmBliss, if you will), since glowking has awesome spdef but lacks good physdef, and physdef corv is bulky as all hell and has actual recovery, so you can shut down most teams who are caught unprepared. I'd also note that you should be careful around ferro, because glowking absolutely despises getting its vest knocked, and flamethrower is a 2hko on physdef ferro. Game freak didn't disappoint with this mon, and I'm so glad it's good after seeing the disappointing cheese mon that is glowbro.

 

[Emanuel.EXE]

@ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eerie Spell
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Bomb
- Future Sight

I highly suggest everyone try out av glowking. It can wall almost every special threat out there, the most notable one being qd mosa. With insane spdef and regen to heal on the switch out, you can shut down lots of special sweepers your team might otherwise have trouble with. It can check qd mosa, corv, molt, zap, koko, the latis, the tapus, mage, specs pult, and more. It's not a replacement for blissey in terms of being a special wall tho, since I found that bliss works much better on defensive teams, while glowking fits nicely on bulky offensive cores. Glowking pairs very well with corviknight (CorviGlow, the new SkarmBliss, if you will), since glowking has awesome spdef but lacks good physdef, and physdef corv is bulky as all hell and has actual recovery, so you can shut down most teams who are caught unprepared. I'd also note that you should be careful around ferro, because glowking absolutely despises getting its vest knocked, and flamethrower is a 2hko on physdef ferro. Game freak didn't disappoint with this mon, and I'm so glad it's good after seeing the disappointing cheese mon that is glowbro.

Why Eerie Spell over Hydro Pump/Scald? As good as Slowking-Galar may be, it doesn't attack with other STAB Psychic moves like Psychic or Eerie Spell and Future Sight pressures your opponent.

Anyway, I'm also surprised it turned out to be good. A good amount of people slept on this mon for not having Teleport, sending it to lower tiers, and suddenly it climbs all the way to OU.

 

[alkazoth]

Why Eerie Spell over Hydro Pump/Scald? As good as Slowking-Galar may be, it doesn't attack with other STAB Psychic moves like Psychic or Eerie Spell and Future Sight pressures your opponent.

Anyway, I'm also surprised it turned out to be good. A good amount of people slept on this mon for not having Teleport, sending it to lower tiers, and suddenly it climbs all the way to OU.

Good point. Altho I do like eerie spell for hitting special sweepers through their subs, and it eats away at heatran's magma storm. Will look into hydro pump.

 

[by the book]

Why Eerie Spell over Hydro Pump/Scald? As good as Slowking-Galar may be, it doesn't attack with other STAB Psychic moves like Psychic or Eerie Spell and Future Sight pressures your opponent.

Future Sight is slow and sometimes you need immediate pressure.

Biggest example is Toxapex. Future Sight gives the Pex enough time to lay Tspikes or Knock Off your AV, but instead you can just nail it with Eerie Spell and 2hko (even on the switch if it came in on expected Flamethrower). You can also oneshot Nidoking without missing a Hydro.

164 SpA Slowking-Galar Eerie Spell vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
164 SpA Slowking-Galar Eerie Spell vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 272-324 (89.7 - 106.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Scald is also reasonable to burn incoming physical attackers though

 

[Spyro]

Hey guys so I was looking trough Hydreigon's movepool and found out it gets Shock Wave. Forget Hyper Beam. Shock Wave is the best move to hit Tapu Fini. 60 BP may seem bad at first but when it's boosted by Life Orb and coming off Hydreigon's good Special Attack and when it hits for super effective damage it almost knocks out 252 HP Fini in one hit at +2. It may kind of suck that you're running a move for just one Pokemon but Tapu Fini is a very common presence in the tier almost in the top 10 most used Pokemon so I think it's a move worth running on offensive Hydreigon sets. Shock Wave is also good for Pelipper, Slowbro, Togekiss, chipped Toxapex and chipped Mandibuzz because you don't have to waste a Draco Meteor and be forced out after. Clefable and Magearna do not like switching into Fire Blast at all. If you're feeling up to it you can run Modest Hydreigon to squeeze a little more juice from Shock Wave and you actually have a chance to OHKO Phys Def Clefable at +2 with a Fire Blast.

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Draco Meteor
- Shock Wave
- Fire Blast

This leaves you sort of walled by Heatran and Tyranitar and Blissey are annoying but Hydreigon can only cover so much at once. But the first 2 lack recovery and hate taking boosted Draco Meteors anyway.