Metagame NP: NU Stage 4 - A Whole New World (Bans on post #160)

[EonX]

Gonna give a few thoughts as I've kinda been using my previous RU experience to play some down here some:

This thing is absolutely bonkers. LO 4 Atks I feel is 100% the way to go on this. Like, why restrict yourself with CB when you can abuse your amazing Speed tier to break everything and still murder just about any offensive mon that isn't protected by Psychic Terrain? Sure, HC sets can delete fatter builds, but then you lose out on priority. On the flip side, HC sets can capitalize on random crap running Protect or bailing out just to dodge Impression.

Remember how DPP Lucario could run just about any offensive set it wanted and do well? Welcome to SS NU Lucario! Yeah, this thing is kinda stupid. NP breaks fatter stuff faster and SD ruins offense more reliably. Hell, you can probably get away with LO 4 Atks for physical Luke bc CC still hits most of what it needs to hard enough. Like, there's nothing that safely switches into this. Just about anything that can check SD auto loses to Plot and vice versa. Oh, and you get a 4x resist to First Impression from Durant (useful for Plot variants) and Golisopod? Deal.

Gonna lump these two in together as they kind of just do the same thing; come in on a resistance, Shell Smash, and go to work. Tea cup I think is overall better since it is outright immune to Luke ESpeed and Vacuum Wave, but Barb isn't much easier to handle with its handy Normal, Flying, and Fire resistances.

Tales itself is fine. Drought is ludicrously dumb with Zard and Shiftry falling down. If you don't run your own weather, you basically have to play almost perfect to deny Zard a kill or two before it gives way to Shiftry to sweep.

Shark seems manageable at first glance; lots of solid priority users, notable Steel and Fairy types, and a lot of solid tank Pokemon that can attack in front of it to put it into said priority range. However, all this goes out the window with Psychic Terrain and the fact that none of the Steels stop physical Shark that well, which exposes the fact Umbreon and Sylveon do not appreciate physical Shark. Then, there's Flip Turn. Don't care to run coverage in CC? Just run Flip Turn with Spikes and you're good. Seriously, just run physical Shark. It has no need for Pump or Pulse when the main Steels, Bronzong and Copperajah invest in special bulk for Indeedee, Goodra, Dragalge, etc.

The last one I'll go over. I'll be honest there's ways around this one. Now, yes, it is incredibly strong and enables Sharpedo A LOT, but Umbreon, AV Copper, and Zong are all among the good, viable checks to this. (see how they all basically insta-die to shark?) Granted, I don't feel it has a place long term at all, but I do feel there's more pressing, busted mons than this. It's likely busted, but between Durant, Shark, and a few others, I think it's a lesser problem CURRENTLY.

 

[5camp]

I feel like some of the discussion around Charizard is plopping down calcs without any thought into how it's actually used in practice. But hey, since we are are throwing around calcs, modest specs charizard overheat in sun is more powerful that choice specs Kyogre water spout. Choice specs Charizard in sun 2hkos Chansey and Blissey. Its sun-powered overheat is more powerful than adamant choice band strong jaw fishous rend from Dracovish.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 696-819 (204.1 - 240.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 672-792 (197 - 232.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If that's the case, then why isn't Charizard being run all the time in higher tiers rather than bumming it down in NU? Why wasn't flash fire mandatory the same way water absorb became vs Vish? Charizard even has recovery and much more coverage to beat flash fire mons, like scorching sands for Heatran and air slash for Centiskorch, which are still boosted by solar power so still ludicrously powerful. Zard has ended up down here because the effort involved in getting Charizard into position is so much of a struggle that most people don't bother. You have to keep rocks off, get sun up, get Zard in safely, all while it gradually kills itself with solar power.

This isn't me saying sun isn't necessarily broken down here. It's me saying that if part of your argument that sun is broken is because Zard can nuke everything in sight, you need a new argument because Zard nukes everything in OU, UU and RU too yet is barely used at all.

 

[Mariannabelle]

I feel like some of the discussion around Charizard is plopping down calcs without any thought into how it's actually used in practice. But hey, since we are are throwing around calcs, modest specs charizard overheat in sun is more powerful that choice specs Kyogre water spout. Choice specs Charizard in sun 2hkos Chansey and Blissey. Its sun-powered overheat is more powerful than adamant choice band strong jaw fishous rend from Dracovish.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 696-819 (204.1 - 240.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 672-792 (197 - 232.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If that's the case, then why isn't Charizard being run all the time in higher tiers rather than bumming it down in NU? Why wasn't flash fire mandatory the same way water absorb became vs Vish? Charizard even has recovery and much more coverage to beat flash fire mons, like scorching sands for Heatran and air slash for Centiskorch, which are still boosted by solar power so still ludicrously powerful. Zard has ended up down here because the effort involved in getting Charizard into position is so much of a struggle that most people don't bother. You have to keep rocks off, get sun up, get Zard in safely, all while it gradually kills itself with solar power.

This isn't me saying sun isn't necessarily broken down here. It's me saying that if part of your argument that sun is broken is because Zard can nuke everything in sight, you need a new argument because Zard nukes everything in OU, UU and RU too yet is barely used at all.

Well, others and myself in this thread have not been very specific about why we consider sun Charizard to be problematic in NU, so I'll take a stab at answering your question about why a mon that is broken here isn't being used in a higher tier.

OFFENSE MATCHUP: The biggest factor holding back Charizard in higher tiers is speed. Generic mons in OU include the likes of Tapu Koko, Barraskewda, Cinderace, Dragapult, Garchomp. The proportion of critters that outspeed (and beat) a Charizard in OU is high. Same deal in UU, where Charizard would have to contend with Terrakion, Thundurus, Alakazam, Azelf.
Sure, we have faster threats available in NU, but the proportion of (critters that Charizard outspeeds and obliterates / total number of critters) is much higher in NU than in those higher tiers.
Put simply: For an insane wallbreaker, Charizard also has a speed advantage against a large majority of the tier. This speed advantage does not exist in higher tiers, hence why it is not broken there.

DEFENSE MATCHUP: UU and OU have Chansey and Blissey available, respectively. They also have a higher proportion of Dragon types. OU has Garchomp, Latios, Hydreigon, Dragapult, Dragonite which can take a hit from Charizard and strike back (with higher speed! or priority). UU has Latias.
NU indeed has things that can take a hit from Charizard, like Diancie and Gigalith, but again- the proportions are incredibly different here. A standard team in a higher tier can easily have a Charizard check. Taking a hit from sun Charizard here in NU requires very specific picks in a huge tier.

Still with me here? Sun Charizard has the speed and power to force out the vast majority of the tier, and there are few options (in a huge tier) that can prevent sun Charizard from taking a KO once it gets in.

I agree with the sentiment that you can't ban something on calcs alone, but I also think that the overall discussion that we've had deserves a little more credit; that includes pieces of it that have taken place here, in the NU chatroom, and in the NU discord. For the most part, the discussion has not amounted simply to posting calcs, and instead reflects the nuanced opinions of people that have played games and came to share their thoughts.

If you read some posts here (yes, including my own), it may seem like there's an inherent assumption that Sun Charizard is broken. However, I'll reiterate that these comments were made after dozens of games played, rather than a single trip to the Damage Calculator.

 

[Tyrith]

If Zard was sun’s only top notch abuser it’d be one thing. It can be killed, although it’s obv very strong. Killing Zard gets you a date with Shriftry or Helio though, and that’s where the problem is with sun. There are enough high quality abusers, and sun builds in a counter to its most common type disadvantage, that you have to ban something like 3 pokes to get it to balance.

I guess there’s a philosophical question in there about what’s better - banning enough Pokes to effectively kill a play style, or just out and out killing it. I’d rather there be fewer Pokes on the ban list in general, so I’d just nuke Drought and be done with it.

 

[Pabloaram]

Aslo Drought have monters in the defensive end of the spectrum... Especially Cresselia... Being one of the most if not the most bulky mon in the tier with a 75% recovery move in MoonLight under Sun make especially hard to break.
I dont see Drought Stall poping up but this monster is insane...

 

[5camp]

Well, others and myself in this thread have not been very specific about why we consider sun Charizard to be problematic in NU, so I'll take a stab at answering your question about why a mon that is broken here isn't being used in a higher tier.

OFFENSE MATCHUP: The biggest factor holding back Charizard in higher tiers is speed. Generic mons in OU include the likes of Tapu Koko, Barraskewda, Cinderace, Dragapult, Garchomp. The proportion of critters that outspeed (and beat) a Charizard in OU is high. Same deal in UU, where Charizard would have to contend with Terrakion, Thundurus, Alakazam, Azelf.
Sure, we have faster threats available in NU, but the proportion of (critters that Charizard outspeeds and obliterates / total number of critters) is much higher in NU than in those higher tiers.
Put simply: For an insane wallbreaker, Charizard also has a speed advantage against a large majority of the tier. This speed advantage does not exist in higher tiers, hence why it is not broken there.

DEFENSE MATCHUP: UU and OU have Chansey and Blissey available, respectively. They also have a higher proportion of Dragon types. OU has Garchomp, Latios, Hydreigon, Dragapult, Dragonite which can take a hit from Charizard and strike back (with higher speed! or priority). UU has Latias.
NU indeed has things that can take a hit from Charizard, like Diancie and Gigalith, but again- the proportions are incredibly different here. A standard team in a higher tier can easily have a Charizard check. Taking a hit from sun Charizard here in NU requires very specific picks in a huge tier.

Still with me here? Sun Charizard has the speed and power to force out the vast majority of the tier, and there are few options (in a huge tier) that can prevent sun Charizard from taking a KO once it gets in.

I agree with the sentiment that you can't ban something on calcs alone, but I also think that the overall discussion that we've had deserves a little more credit; that includes pieces of it that have taken place here, in the NU chatroom, and in the NU discord. For the most part, the discussion has not amounted simply to posting calcs, and instead reflects the nuanced opinions of people that have played games and came to share their thoughts.

If you read some posts here (yes, including my own), it may seem like there's an inherent assumption that Sun Charizard is broken. However, I'll reiterate that these comments were made after dozens of games played, rather than a single trip to the Damage Calculator.

I appreciate the measured response. I do think you are really underestimating how well tiers like OU actually deal with Charizard in sun though. All those dragons you listed? The only one who survives modest specs Zard overheat in sun is Dragonite thanks to multiscale and Latios, which is a 50% chance to survive. Most of them have a chance to die after stealth rock damage to weather ball. Chansey and Blissey are 2hko by weather ball. The closest you get to reliable sun specs Charizard switch ins in the entire game are Gigalith, Politoad and....errr, Kyogre and Eternatus?

...I don't really know where I'm going with this. Charizard is cool, Leon is the best Pokemon trainer in the world, all hail Charizard!

 

[Rabia]

Well, others and myself in this thread have not been very specific about why we consider sun Charizard to be problematic in NU, so I'll take a stab at answering your question about why a mon that is broken here isn't being used in a higher tier.

OFFENSE MATCHUP: The biggest factor holding back Charizard in higher tiers is speed. Generic mons in OU include the likes of Tapu Koko, Barraskewda, Cinderace, Dragapult, Garchomp. The proportion of critters that outspeed (and beat) a Charizard in OU is high. Same deal in UU, where Charizard would have to contend with Terrakion, Thundurus, Alakazam, Azelf.
Sure, we have faster threats available in NU, but the proportion of (critters that Charizard outspeeds and obliterates / total number of critters) is much higher in NU than in those higher tiers.
Put simply: For an insane wallbreaker, Charizard also has a speed advantage against a large majority of the tier. This speed advantage does not exist in higher tiers, hence why it is not broken there.

DEFENSE MATCHUP: UU and OU have Chansey and Blissey available, respectively. They also have a higher proportion of Dragon types. OU has Garchomp, Latios, Hydreigon, Dragapult, Dragonite which can take a hit from Charizard and strike back (with higher speed! or priority). UU has Latias.
NU indeed has things that can take a hit from Charizard, like Diancie and Gigalith, but again- the proportions are incredibly different here. A standard team in a higher tier can easily have a Charizard check. Taking a hit from sun Charizard here in NU requires very specific picks in a huge tier.

Still with me here? Sun Charizard has the speed and power to force out the vast majority of the tier, and there are few options (in a huge tier) that can prevent sun Charizard from taking a KO once it gets in.

I agree with the sentiment that you can't ban something on calcs alone, but I also think that the overall discussion that we've had deserves a little more credit; that includes pieces of it that have taken place here, in the NU chatroom, and in the NU discord. For the most part, the discussion has not amounted simply to posting calcs, and instead reflects the nuanced opinions of people that have played games and came to share their thoughts.

If you read some posts here (yes, including my own), it may seem like there's an inherent assumption that Sun Charizard is broken. However, I'll reiterate that these comments were made after dozens of games played, rather than a single trip to the Damage Calculator.

this post comes off as really misguided and accidentally or willingly ignores a ton of aspects about Charizard

Charizard is not a Pokemon that you can switch into all too easily because sun-boosted attacks hit unreasonably hard; I don't think anyone ignores that. There are caveats to this, though. The big one is how limited Charizard's longevity is as a result of Stealth Rock, which is really easy to force now with options like Mold Breaker Druddigon and Rhyperior complicating Xatu's ability to keep Stealth Rock off the field, and Solar Power. Additionally, NU really isn't any more limited defensively or offensively when it comes to handling Charizard compared to other tiers, and I think there's a case to be made we're better equipped. We've got two very competent Fire-immune options in Centiskorch and Arcanine and multiple Fire-resistant options that can at least dampen Charizard's effectiveness, such as Diancie, Dragalge, Gigalith, and Goodra. Obviously Charizard has coverage for some of these Pokemon, but I think even dissuading it from spamming sun-boosted Weather Ball or Overheat is absurdly helpful in limiting its effectiveness. I also don't understand how you think NU is a particularly slow tier; there exist a multitude of viable, faster options (Heliolisk, Inteleon, Noivern, Mienshao, Choice Scarf Heracross, and Sneasel to name a few) that can easily remove Charizard with minimal chip damage needed.

Yes, Drought enables Charizard to be an absurdly effective wallbreaker with somewhat limited defensive counterplay; however, I think you severely overstate how fast it is and understate the defensive tools available. In my eyes, Shiftry is the biggest issue sun has because it so easily pushes by the few defensive answers to the other wallbreakers. I think Shiftry enables these other scary sun Pokemon to too great an extent and thus should be what we get rid of to deal with sun teams as a whole.

 

[G-Luke]

Thanks for the responses, everyone : )

I've gotten several responses suggesting that, rather than a Snow Warning ban, perhaps everything will be just fine if we whack an Arcto. This is a reasonable position, but I would ask you to consider this-

At what point do we consider the weather itself to be the broken element?
After all, we already had to address Hail once: Aurora Veil was quickbanned because the Hail teams using it were broken.
Assuming something is done about Arctozolt, that will be strike two against Hail.

The general consensus that I've seen, with regards to Sun, is that a single ban on Shiftry wouldn't fix the Sun problem, as teams would still be evaporating under Charizard, and there are other (albeit worse) Chlorophyll sweepers to take Shiftry's place. No, the way to address Sun is to attack it directly a la direct ban, or at least a Heat Rock ban.

Notice how nobody thinks we should chip away a little bit at Sun with a ban here, chip some more with a ban there, maybe another ban later. No. The weather is broken. Sure, you could neuter sun effectively with ban after ban after ban, but there's no need to do that. No need to fill NUBL with a bunch of Sun mons just so we can have a husk of Sun left to own your little brother with.
<EDIT: Alright, fine. It's not cut and dry as I was making it out to be. Yes, there's plenty of discussion to be had on whether it's Shiftry or Sun that needs to go.>

How many bans do we need to slap Hail teams with before it's acknowledged that maybe banning Snow Warning is less destructive?

But Hail isnt a problem once the Arctos (I am bundling them up here) are banned.

 

[Mariannabelle]

this post comes off as really misguided and accidentally or willingly ignores a ton of aspects about Charizard

Charizard is not a Pokemon that you can switch into all too easily because sun-boosted attacks hit unreasonably hard; I don't think anyone ignores that. There are caveats to this, though. The big one is how limited Charizard's longevity is as a result of Stealth Rock, which is really easy to force now with options like Mold Breaker Druddigon and Rhyperior complicating Xatu's ability to keep Stealth Rock off the field, and Solar Power. Additionally, NU really isn't any more limited defensively or offensively when it comes to handling Charizard compared to other tiers, and I think there's a case to be made we're better equipped. We've got two very competent Fire-immune options in Centiskorch and Arcanine and multiple Fire-resistant options that can at least dampen Charizard's effectiveness, such as Diancie, Dragalge, Gigalith, and Goodra. Obviously Charizard has coverage for some of these Pokemon, but I think even dissuading it from spamming sun-boosted Weather Ball or Overheat is absurdly helpful in limiting its effectiveness. I also don't understand how you think NU is a particularly slow tier; there exist a multitude of viable, faster options (Heliolisk, Inteleon, Noivern, Mienshao, Choice Scarf Heracross, and Sneasel to name a few) that can easily remove Charizard with minimal chip damage needed.

Yes, Drought enables Charizard to be an absurdly effective wallbreaker with somewhat limited defensive counterplay; however, I think you severely overstate how fast it is and understate the defensive tools available. In my eyes, the issue is very clearly Shiftry is the biggest issue sun has because it so easily pushes by the few defensive answers to the other wallbreakers. I think Shiftry enables these other scary sun Pokemon to too great an extent and thus should be what we get rid of to deal with sun teams as a whole.

No, I don’t think I’m ignoring any aspects about Charizard.

I didn’t bother bringing up Stealth Rock as a factor because it is a non issue. Charizard does not care. Charizard’s insane wallbreaking is accomplished without Specs, it’s mostly accomplished without a Modest nature. Charizard puts on Boots, and anyone trying to work with Specs Sunzard is overcomplicating their life.

As far as underselling our defensive answers go, I respectfully disagree. Some of the names you've named are extremely iffy as Sun Charizard answers. Dragalge? Diancie? Guzzlord? Regirock? These are all options that I've seen touted as Charizard answers, when they're kinda bad at it- in Sun, they're all taking upwards of 60-70% from SE coverage (Dragon Pulse, Solarbeam), and then you realize that they're taking maybe 30-40% if they try to take a Weather Ball on the switch, not to mention taking chip from [literally any other source]. These critters are not dissuading the use of Weather Ball, because oftentimes all it takes is one Weather Ball to put them into coverage range. Fatter versions of dragons like Goodra can come in once or twice, but they're still being worn down rather quickly especially if SR or Spikes or w/e is up.
[All of the above is exacerbated if Charizard opts to go Modest, which is a perfectly reasonable decision].

I'll give some credit to Flash Fire users for being immune to Fire, but... they're by no means consistent answers considering that Charizard 2HKO's both of the common ones with its other moves. Being a Weather Ball deterrent isn't too impressive if they get read on the switch and die. Bonus points to Arcanine for having Extremespeed, though.

Mantine gets thunderpunched and (Sand Stream) Gigalith are both consistent Charizard answers, sure, although I think it's telling that one of the most common (if not the most common) go-to answers to a common weather mon is 'run your own weather'. Consistent defensive Charizard counterplay absolutely is extremely specific.

<EDIT: Someone had to remind me to mention Focus Blast as an option for Gigalith, although that option is kinda meh, especially if Gigalith is spdef>
<EDIT: Yes, I realize that Charizard might not be able to fit all of the coverage it wants into one set, but the fact that it has options to muscle past basically anything means it can pick and choose its counters.>

I will certainly concede that offensive counterplay to Sun Charizard is not specific. There's like a dozen or more things that can outspeed and remove it, even without a Scarf. However, looking at the tier as a whole, I maintain that it's numerical fact that Charizard is well above-average in terms of unmodified speed, and is noticeably faster and more powerful than other wallbreakers such as Porygon-Z, Indeedee, Sirfetch'd, and the like. Faster teams like the kind that I run might not be too threatened by Charizard, but it's going to be hard for other archetypes to develop when they might only have one or two of those faster options and are being squeezed into stapling Gigalith on every team.

 

[Monky25]

not sure if this is even possible, but I have a solution to the shiftry vs drought argument. To satisfy both sides (even if I personally think drought as a whole is busted, not going to get into that). Let’s just ban shiftry and see how sun is from there. If sun still is problematic, then just ban drought and unban shiftry cause without sun it’s ZU level shit. It doesn’t get simpler than that, ban shifty camp gets their mon gone while ban sun camp gets to see if it really was shiftry versus the plethora of abusers we have. On an unrelated note, when can we expect a voting slate? I hate Durant with a fiery passion and it should get snapped to NUBL

 

[Expulso]

fwiw although i think shiftry is the most blatantly broken part of sun due to its ability to tear through both offense and fat teams, calcs of even Boots Charizard under sun appear to be incredibly stupid.

wow, calcs in a post abt sun, groundbreaking

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 256-303 (64.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Assault Vest Slowbro-Galar in Sun: 247-292 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon in Sun: 213-252 (70.7 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge in Sun: 149-176 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO

^^ these are a few pokemon i'd switch into a generic special attacker on bulky offense if i were not building a team entirely around stopping sun Zard (and instead focusing on the dozens of overall threats in the meta).

the only things that really shrug off hits from boots zard are mantine, gigalith, and snorlax/p2; those all take a ton from specs zard [except gigalith, which has no recovery], and they are generally easy pokemon to pressure or wear down with teammates.

i do think it's less bad than shiftry due to its limitations vs offense, but it does seem a bit too powerful.

therefore, i would ban charizard and shiftry. this preserves sun as a not very good but fun & fringe viable playstyle; heliolisk can break some less sturdy special walls, albeit with a lot less power than zard, and leafeon can sweep some really weakened teams. it would be a fun and (barely) viable playstyle.

if that isnt viewed as a good way of handing the problem, i would prefer to ban drought rather than keep zard around (long-term, if we want to test it for a week or 2 that may be ok as long as we re-vote). i don't think sun/drought is inherently broken; shiftry is, and zard probably is. but i really don't think heliolisk is a problem.

252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

neutral special walls are able to stomach its hits pretty well; at best, it'll get high rolls / come in against a weakened team and trade with one while taking ~50% recoil itself in the process. without shiftry and zard sun is fine and could be preserved, but if a drought ban is deemed necessary to remove shiftry+zard i would be in favor of that.

 

[Pokeslice]

fwiw although i think shiftry is the most blatantly broken part of sun due to its ability to tear through both offense and fat teams, calcs of even Boots Charizard under sun appear to be incredibly stupid.

wow, calcs in a post abt sun, groundbreaking

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 256-303 (64.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Assault Vest Slowbro-Galar in Sun: 247-292 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon in Sun: 213-252 (70.7 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge in Sun: 149-176 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO

^^ these are a few pokemon i'd switch into a generic special attacker on bulky offense if i were not building a team entirely around stopping sun Zard (and instead focusing on the dozens of overall threats in the meta).

the only things that really shrug off hits from boots zard are mantine, gigalith, and snorlax/p2; those all take a ton from specs zard [except gigalith, which has no recovery], and they are generally easy pokemon to pressure or wear down with teammates.

i do think it's less bad than shiftry due to its limitations vs offense, but it does seem a bit too powerful.

therefore, i would ban charizard and shiftry. this preserves sun as a not very good but fun & fringe viable playstyle; heliolisk can break some less sturdy special walls, albeit with a lot less power than zard, and leafeon can sweep some really weakened teams. it would be a fun and (barely) viable playstyle.

if that isnt viewed as a good way of handing the problem, i would prefer to ban drought rather than keep zard around (long-term, if we want to test it for a week or 2 that may be ok as long as we re-vote). i don't think sun/drought is inherently broken; shiftry is, and zard probably is. but i really don't think heliolisk is a problem.

252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

neutral special walls are able to stomach its hits pretty well; at best, it'll get high rolls / come in against a weakened team and trade with one while taking ~50% recoil itself in the process. without shiftry and helio sun is fine and could be preserved, but if a drought ban is deemed necessary to remove shiftry+zard i would be in favor of that.

I really like this suggestion by Expulso and I think it could be a nice compromise to keep the sun archetype in NU, but I think in doing so, we ban two mons that could potentially become solid additions to the metagame. Outside of sun, Zard loses a TON of the offensive power that makes it broken and I can see it becoming a really good defogger and glue mon, similarly to earlier RU (my RU meta knowledge is definitely not complete so correct me if I'm wrong). As for Shiftry, without the speed boost, it loses to a truckload of faster mons in the tier, all while losing the Growth, Heat Wave, and Solar Blade buffs that make it a legitimate top tier threat. Without sun, I see it becoming a really cool breaker, with access to a wide variety of special or physical sets and even a cool defogger.

Imo, Drought is what really puts these two over the top, and if we ban it, we can give these mons a really cool NU role that leaves them balanced and healthy for the metagame.

 

[CanineIllusionist]

Forgive me for potentially stepping over my station, I'm mostly a observer and haven't played NU myself this generation at all if I'm honest with you - And I am quite new to posting around in Smogon, so I don't know the ins and outs. But I've lurked a fair bit, and I saw UU during the Isle of Armour metagame discuss Drought bans and in that moment they were informed by Policy Review to attempt banning Pokémon first before a Drought Complex Ban would be entertained.

While I feel like there would be more leeway given to this lower tier by sheer virtue of the fact there's less mons to use and attempt to adapt with, assuming I hadn't missed a major change in how Official Usage-based Metagames are conducted, Expulso's proposal to ban Mons first, and reassess the Ability is not only a good idea from my biased anti-complex ban mindset, about the only thing you can reasonably expect to be done in a swift manner.

For what it's worth, despite the fact that then-UU and modern day NU are wildly different tiers they eventually banned Venusaur and it went okay IMO. And then afterwards they attempted to test Venusaur in the tier again, and all of a sudden there was many posts offering many different solutions to the sun problem - that was only recreated with the reintroduction of Venusaur, so while it's entirely possible that Shiftry's power level is more easily met by replacement abusers than Venusaur's was, I think that provides historical precedent and merit for attempting to rule on abusers first.

 

[Catalisador]

Howdy, y'all. Somebody asked me to make a "viability list" so here's my viability list (lol).

viability list

S Tier: Bewear, Sylveon, Mienshao, Pangoro (owo).


Hail setter and supporter for the fossils Arctovish and Arctozolt. Thanks to secondary Grass-type, Abomasnow provides a decent offensive and defensive presence to hail teams.

Great Dark-type setupper/wallbreaker.

Great lead pokémon and ok as a Choice Band attacker, but extremely mediocre as a Dragon Dance setupper.

Webs setter with valuable typing and utility tools.

Great defensive pivot with amazing abilities, movepool and stats.

Viable lead pokémon, with access to Endeavor and Head Smash (in contrast to Aerodactyl).

Hail breaker.

Hail breaker.

Lackluster setup sweeper, but can catch teams off-guard.

Amazing hailstorm setter thanks to Stealth Rock role compression or Choice Specs breaker thanks to great movepool and 100% accurate Blizzards.

Great Shell Smash sweeper for hyper-offensive teams.

Great defensive glue or offensive Choice Band and SD attacker.

Amazing spinner and momentum grabber thanks to Flip Turn and Yawn.

Ok defog-deterrent pokémon thanks to Defiant.

Amazing defensive Stealth Rocker with the ability to check some of the metagame's top picks such as Indeedee and Choice Specs Sylveon.

Extremely versatile pokémon, with potential to go for lead, defensive, LO 4 Atks, Scarf or Nasty Plot sets.

Sun-deterrant thanks to Flash Fire and ok special bulk plus breaking capabilities.

Sun wallbreaker.

Defensive steel and/or breaker.

Premier defensive/support pokémon.

Ok Choice Scarf/SD breaker pokémon.

Great spinner/breaker.

Amazing defensive or offensive Stealth Rock user and Trick Room setter.

Great breaker and TSpike setter with premier defensive typing.

Amazing lead with access to Mold Breaker, Glare and SR.

Versatile pokémon, going for lead, Iron Defense + Body Press or Choice Specs sets.

Versatile breaker with access to strong priority.

Great defensive glue.

Magic Bounce and fast attacker.

Excellent Dragon-type breaker.

Fine Normal-type breaker.

Ok choiced user or dragon dancer.

Mediocre Fighting-type that differentiates itself thanks to its access to Trick.

Great defensive glue.

Amazing defensive glue or offensive pokémon and Drought deterrent.

Ok defensive defogger, stallbreaker and momentum-grabber.

Great priority user.

Amazing breaker.

Great choice user and defensive glue.

Ok breaker under sun.

Great breaker and access to Spikes.

Broken breaker.

Amazing breaker with access to Healing Wish.

Great screens setter or breaker/setup sweeper.

Ok spinner and Flip Turn user.

Amazing and versatile breaker, ranging from CB, Specs, Critdra and Rain Dance.

Ok momentum-grabbing bulky pokémon.

Ok setup sweeper.

Broken versatile attacker.

Ok defensive defogger.

Best scarfer in the tier thanks to pivotting and Regenerator.

Great defensive wall.

Great wall and SR setupper.

Ok, annoying U-Turn user and cleaner.

Sun setupper.

Great defogger with access to great utility. Can also act as a Scarfer or Specs user.

Ok lead.

Ok defensive, Ground-type SR user with access to reliable recovery.

Amazing slow, Fighting-type breaker.

Ok Fighting-type scarfer thanks to its ability to be a defog deterrent.

Ok SR user thanks to its ability to somewhat stop hail teams.

Electric Terrain setupper.

Amazing Shell Smash setupper and spiker.

Amazing special breaker.

Fantastic defensive glue with access to Teleport.

Electric Terrain sweeper.

Amazing Stealth Rock user with offensive prowess.

Great webs setter.

Amazing Spikes and Toxic Spikes setter with offensive prowess and Natural Cure.

Great defogger/breaker.

Great special sweeper.

Great physical sweeper for Terrain teams.

Great physical attacker.

Amazing cleaner.

Broken sun setupper/breaker.

Versatile breaker.

Versatile defogger or offensive pokémon.

Great slow, Fighting-type breaker with strong priority.

Versatile defensive glue.

Great webs setter/Belly Drum sweeper.

Great fast attacker/cleaner/priority user.

Great offensive spinner.

Best breaker in the tier (personally speaking) and possible ok cleric.

Amazing defensive defogger or attacker.

Great breaker.

Great breaker/spinner that prevents priority.

Great breaker/setup sweeper.

cute cat >:3

Ok defensive cleric.

Great lead/Trick Room setter.

Ok fast hail setter and breaker.

Great Water-type cleric.

Meh webs setter.

Ok defensive Grass-type.

Ok Fighting-type attacker that can go special or physical.

Amazing defensive glue with access to Neutralizing Gas to shut down most of the metagame's defining threats.

Fine momentum grabber and support pokémon.

Great defensive pivot.

Great attacker.

Blacklisted pokémon:

Outclassed by Sylveon as a defensive cleric and outclassed by diancie as an offensive, Fairy-type Trick Room setter.

Extremely passive pokémon, outclassed by better spinners and Grass-types.

Bad typing, movepool, stats and abilities make Electivire an extremely mediocre pick.

Outclassed defensively by Bewear and offensively by [insert any other NU Fighting-type].

Outclassed by superior Electric- and Steel-type pokémon and Magnet Pull isn't as valuable as it once was thanks to the removal of Hidden Power Fire (making Magneton unable to trap most steels effectively).

Pokémon not listed above are not valuable right now due to better choices but aren't as bad as to be blacklisted (ex: Aggron).

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Here's a core that I'm testing out a bit but I've been having decent results with so far.

Zoroark @ Choice Specs
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower
- Grass Knot / U-turn

Dragalge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 248 HP / 116 SpA / 144 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Bomb
- Scald
- Flip Turn

Heracross @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off

Basically, the idea of this core is that it's centered around using Zoroark's Illusion ability to make Zoroark into a very effective lure. Heracross and Dragalge are both very threatening Pokemon in their own right in the tier rn but they work especially well in tandem with Zoroark as well as each other. Scarf Moxie Heracross is a terrifying cleaner right now and Dragalge is a good wallbreaker+pivot rn, but they do have quite a few switch ins or answers that can deal with them.

So...enter Zoroark! With Illusion, you can disguise Zoroark as either Dragalge or Heracross to attract their usual answers and then make short work of said answers. Zoroark+Heracross was an interesting combo back in 5th Gen UU and in the current NU metagame it can also work just as well. Basically, disguise Zoroark as Heracross, and with it you can attract the conventional Heracross answers in the metagame: namely Golurk and Palossand as well as stuff like Scyther, Polteageist, Xatu, etc. and stuff that resists Fighting and all, and then make quick work of them with either its STAB Dark Pulse or one of its coverage moves on the switch in. After which you can later send out Heracross itself in the late game and with all of its checks removed from play, it can proceed to cleanly sweep with powerful Attacks and Moxie to snowball even more.

Dragalge is also an excellent Zoroark disguise. Not only because their types synergize well defensively, but Dragalge tends to attract many Steel-types in the metagame such as Bronzong, Copperajah, and Durant/Escavalier which Zoroark disguised as Dragalge can attract and destroy them with Flamethrower (or STAB Dark Pulse in the case of Bronzong). Zoroark also has Sludge Bomb as coverage, which you can use as Dragalge!Zoroark to fool the opponent into thinking it's actually Dragalge. From there, Dragalge is free to do as it wishes, pivoting into Sun teams and nuking stuff with Adaptability STABS as well as providing momentum with Flip Turn.

This core also works well because even once Zoroark has done its job as a lure/breaker, Dragalge and Heracross also synergize very well with each other. They make the classic wallbreaker/cleaner duo that works well offensively, and Dragalge can nuke Fairy-types like Comfey and Sylveon as well as soften up bulkier threats in general with a powerful Draco Meteor, while Heracross can still deal with Steel-types like Copperajah and clean up late game against offensive teams. Zoroark by itself works well as a second breaker even once Illusion breaks (assuming it survive the hit that breaks it, of course).

Only other thing to point out is that you can use Team Preview to your advantage with a core like this: assess your opponent's team and then choose which of Dragalge or Heracross will serve as the Zoroark disguise.

It's a very prediction and skill reliant core, so it's not perfect, but when played well it can be a very effective core to have on a team. You should definitely have a strong defensive backbone to back up this core though, since Zoroark and Heracross are pretty frail/offensive and don't have much to offer defensively. Naturally you will need to play very carefully to ensure Zoroark's Illusion is used to the best effect.

Anyway, just wanted to talk about an interesting combo that I've attempted to make and test out in the current NU metagame. This is probably the strangest the NU meta has ever been so far but it's still pretty fun.

(Note that the above EV spreads are just samples: You can tailor the movesets and EVs as you please and how you best see fit and I'm not exactly creative when it comes to EV spreads anyway)

 

[etern]

Hi everyone, here's the first round of council votes for the month! As always, remember that anything banned is subjected to be re-examined later on if necessary. A majority of 5/8 ban votes is needed for something to be banned from the tier. (Kiyo has abstained from voting this week due to irl commitments). Without further ado, here are the votes and results!

Therefore, Lucario, Arctozolt, Durant, Indeedee-M, Heracross, and Drought have been banned from NU! (Tagging Marty and The Immortal, thank you!)

Lucario was banned due to it's ridiculous combination of power, boosting options, and wallbreaking potential from both sides of the damage spectrum. It ultimately was deemed too strong for the tier as it's two best sets (Swords Dance and Nasty Plot) had the ability to destroy eachothers checks, while also being able to run AoA sets to lure any Pokemon it wants to.

Arctozolt suffers from the same issues that made it ridiculous in NU a few months ago. It's STAB Bolt Beak is obscenely strong, and under hail it absolutely annihilates anything that isn't immune or very bulky and resistant to it while also outspeeding the majority of the tier. It's also quite strong and has insanely good coverage to blast through anything immune to it's Bolt Beak, therefore it has no place in NU.

Durant is extremely fast, ridiculously strong in conjunction with Hustle and has the coverage to become practically unwallable. It can run any item it wants to suit it's needs, whether it be Life Orb, Choice Scarf, Choice Band or more niche options to wallbreak or revenge kill at an overwhelming degree. Ultimately this Pokemon was far too constrictive for the tier and resulted in games less hinged on skill and moreso on landing nuclear hits with Durant.

Similarly, Heracross is a complete behemoth with it's unresisted coverage and insane offensive abilities in Moxie and Guts which allow it to break past the fattest of defensive cores. It has more than a handful of viable and lethal sets which provide no room for counterplay other than outspeeding it and revenge killing with a specific subset of Pokemon.

Specs Indeedee is unbearably strong, and facilitates insane synergy with other mammoth threats in the tier courtesy of Psychic Terrain either boosting their coverage, activating unburden, or shielding them from priority. Indeedee also had good flexibility in what items it could run to throw off checks by surprising them with it's coverage options, not to mention it's fantastic utility as a revenge killer with Choice Scarf. Overall Indeedee was deemed too strong, flexible, and potent for the tier.

Drought: Drought is the last ban on the slate and arguably the most controversial. Ultimately, most people could agree upon the fact that Sun in it's current state was far too powerful for the tier, however the majority of Council agreed that even with Shiftry out of the equation Sun has far too many broken abusers that push it into uncompetitive territory. Drought teams restrict teambuilding to a degree that we aren't comfortable with one playstyle doing to the tier and enables a lot of strategies and wallbreakers that require a very small pool of specialised checks to have a chance at stopping them, thus it was deemed to once again be too strong for NU.

With that out of the way, we encourage you all to continue the fantastic discussion that's been going on in this thread. We've got one one of the most active NP threads out of all the lower tiers and it's very exciting to see. The NU Council will discuss the meta now that bans are out of the way and plan our next step, you can expect another roadmap for the rest of the month within the week, but we'll likely have another 1-2 Council slates before the end of the month. Starting in 2021, I'd like us to start moving towards public suspect testing whether it be a Suspect Test or Retest of something, so all of you itching to get involved in the tiering process further, you don't have much longer to wait! Until then, have fun, enjoy analysing new meta trends, and let us know what you think is king of the meta after this latest slate!

 

[Pabloaram]

Whit the ban of and slow fighting types wallbreakers come to play like .. also
Love to see this ban...

 

[Tyrith]

The one thing I find really curious is that Raichu-A wasn't even on the slate. E-Terrain was the only of the Terrain/Weather archtypes that was left untouched, so I'll be interested to see if it can take a premier position in the meta for a bit. E-Terrain's two big sweepers do share a weakness to First Impression, and I think prio still remains an important part of keep ahead of the most intensely offensive parts of what's left.

 

[Magmajudis]

Whit the ban of and slow fighting types wallbreakers come to play like :sirfetch .. also
Love to see this ban...

What Slow Fighting type don't like with this is that those bans (especially Indeedee which was more threatening than him on the special side and Drought that made it less effective) makes Inteleon (which is often played with Air Slash) a lot better

 

[SlickL7690]

From what I can tell, it kinda seems like Mienshao is a big threat now under choice scarf. It has a really good speed tier and can uturn on most of the meta. Before it was outclassed by Heracross because of Moxie boosts, and the only form of viable Drizzle is manual at this point. Ofc we still have Unburden Sceptile and Raichu-Alola but they need terrain to be setup and are really only for late game. Mienshao is very flexible with regenerator and can make it fulfill many roles. There aren't many counters to it either if played well. I wouldn't be surprised if it jumps in usage.

 

[lolbro]

What Slow Fighting type don't like with this is that those bans (especially Indeedee which was more threatening than him on the special side and Drought that made it less effective) makes Inteleon (which is often played with Air Slash) a lot better

What does air slash hit that ice beam doesn't ? Milotic/bulky waters ?

 

[Rubicon]

What does air slash hit that ice beam doesn't ? Milotic/bulky waters ?

Short list I put together on the fly. Besides the usual fighting types, Air Slash over Ice Beam hits including, but not limited to:

• Virizion (for better effectiveness)
• Ludicolo (if you want to use it up here)
• Golisopod
• Centiskorch (who is krumped by water STAB anyway, but just in case you need to play safe)
• Araquanid (despite the high special defense, yeah, it hits)
• Abomasnow

 

[Just_Aaron]

Short list I put together on the fly. Besides the usual fighting types, Air Slash over Ice Beam hits including, but not limited to:

• Virizion (for better effectiveness)
• Ludicolo (if you want to use it up here)
• Golisopod
• Centiskorch (who is krumped by water STAB anyway, but just in case you need to play safe)
• Araquanid (despite the high special defense, yeah, it hits)
• Abomasnow

Also Toxicroak (and the rare Poliwrath), that is inmune to water and otherwise takes no damage from dark moves and survives Ice Beam

 

[SlickL7690]

I've been trying to use

in NU and I've had...inconsistent results so far. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to make it work better?

 

[jcbc]

I do think that this bans were good for the tier sanity so my props to the council for that and while i personally was not fully conviced on lucario i can totally understnd the ban behind it. What i can't really understand is how raichuA was not even put into the slate.

Anyways, here's some more thoughts post bans from me.

: I already stated my opinion on raichu before the bans happened and now that we got out of the way some of the most solid ways to outoffense it (i.e.: first impression from durant, some sun mon outspeeding it, lucario with the priority...) it just got worse. I can't see how this mon is balanced at all and should have been gone already in this slate.

: The same as i did with raichu, i already spoke about the duck in my previous post and while this one cannot be compared to raichu, because the former isn't as broken, this doesn't mean it is not worth the ban aswell. It doesn't have a solid switch at all, your best bet to not have to sack something everytime is having copperajah and not getting chipped fast enough.

: Now this one surprised me. Only 2 ban votes for a pokemon as dominant as the shark is honestly ridiculous. The sweeping potential it has with very little progress needed for it is just to good. But let's get some facts on the table, and for it i'm moving into RU ban votes from this slate, they also been struggling with the shark and while they have better and more prominent sharpedo switchins such as suicune, togekiss or even zarude we are stuck with just bulky waters that are praying for toxic to not miss (which get borked by sub if that's the 4th mss used) or to burn with the scald. Our grass types can't handle physical shark due to its coverage and tangela gets packed if it turns out to be special. It is true that it gets chipped by LO but the raw power it has added to the utility speed boost gives is just to much.

: While veil got banned and i didn't think this mon was that good last slate (mainly because lucario indeedee and durant stopped it hard) its probably going to be very problematic because it just has a very safe setup behind screens and it doesnt have much counterplay after it. We'll see, i personally didn't used it a lot but my bets are very high on it not passing next vote.

: read linoone, now take off the priority but add a sustaining move on Dpunch.

: as i said on my other post, tyrantrum has too much raw power and it just picks and it can choose if he wants to break/sweep/or do both in the game. And with now the priority, the weathers and all gone it just push it even more into the edge.

: The fluffy bear is unbearably strong, it has a lot of bulk while it still does a billion damage. Personally, i'm not totally sold on the bear not being broken. But from what i've played (and trust me it's been a lot), it's still not there just yet. But it should go back into the slate again no matter what just for the sake of revisiting it and to make sure its not broken because the switchins to it are very limited.

Now with the voted things out of the way some extra pokemons i wanted to mention:

: This mon is super versatile and i've had a lot of fun using it, not only works as a rocker but also as an ID and even a double dance sweeper.

: The elephant is so fat, yet adds so much power to teams due to its natural high base atk stat. Rocker and AV are the sets ive been using and both are really good.

: This one is odd, because while its super good at some times, in some games it just does nothing. This doesn't mean anything, all the sets it can provide are phenomenal and i probably mot explored it out enough. The options are so big.

: The slicky dragon, i honestly like it a lot and is a good glue for teams since it has a lot of role compression.

: Same as goodra, this dragon is amazing in all of its sets. Adds so much answers to current meta threats and can fight back with some strong attacks or even pivot out with flip turn.

: I'm like 99% sure we are going to lose this one next month as it will rise to RU but while its still here, this is the SM passimian of SS. Premier scarfer with undoubtely STRONG moves.

: I feel this one was forgotten due to the other brokens reigning the tier (even i forgot about it lol) but with those (except raichu reeee) gone, tsareena is an excellent pick for BO or balance to deal with water types or hazards or evne priority.

: My lovely bird has seen better days sadly, this doesnt mean its bad by any means tho; bulky sets provide a lot of utility and it helps a lot checking some of the most dominant pokemons on the meta. Altho i wouldnt use defog on it.

: This one can easily act as speed control since lot of teams relly on mienshao/offense/priority to handle speed rn. Thus, that by itself makes noiv good but not only that but also it has strong stabs helped with good coverage, and the option to stallbreak/control hazard/pivot wirhout much problem.

If by any casuality you are still reading at this point, (i wish you do lol) i invite everyone to jump on the ladder or into room tours to try things out and to test every possible pokemon and/or set you could think of even if those end up being horrible, the tier is heading towards a good point imo but needs some more little improvements to be there.

last, i wanted to finish replying this post:

I've been trying to use

in NU and I've had...inconsistent results so far. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to make it work better?

Sadly scrafty is not in the best situation rn, as a bulky fighting breaker pangoro outclasses it, as a Dragon Dance sweeper tyrantrum and flygon outclasses it due to their natural speed tier and overall mienshao is the dominant fighting type so is hard to find a slot for it.