Metagame NP: NU Stage 4 - A Whole New World (Bans on post #160)

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etern

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NU Leader
Hi all. While we have plans to conduct a big council slate at the end of this week, rozes and myself have put together a small list of quickbans to get the ball rolling on shaping the new tier. As always, please note that anything we or the council ban within the next couple of weeks is subject to be retested at a later date if deemed appropriate.

:reuniclus: Reuniclus has been banned from NU due to it's combination of fantastic bulk, reliable recovery, perfect coverage, and insane ability in Magic Guard which allowed it to break past virtually all of it's checks and any team. It's unanimously agreed upon that Reuniclus is far too strong of a Pokemon for NU to handle.

:obstagoon: Obstagoon has also been banned from NU because of it's insane wallbreaking potential. With perfect coverage, great bulk, and the ability to skyrocket its Attack stat with Guts, Obstagoon has virtually no counters in the NU tier, and is far too quick for the power level it possesses. It can effectively break past any playstyle, and thus has no place in the NU metagame.

Aurora Veil: Finally, we've decided to eliminate Auroral Veil from the tier because of how easily it enables a gigantic portion of the tier into becoming unstoppable behemoths. Aurora Veil teams have been greatly buffed by the return of Vanilluxe (and Abomasnow to a much lesser extent), and have absolutely no issues in setting up Veil multiple times throughout a match in order to facilitate a playstyle that is so dynamic and threatening in nature, it lacks any realistically consistent counterplay. Even attempting to prepare for Veil teams compromises your builds to such an extent that you're effectively opening yourself up to vulnerability against an even wider array of playstyles and threats in the metagame. The problem with Veil ultimately does not lie upon any singular win condition or threatening partner under Aurora Veil, but rather the nature of the archetype as a whole, therefore it has no place in the NU metagame and has been banned.

(Tagging Marty and The Immortal to implement these bans, thank you!)

As stated above, the council will be conducting a slate later this week, you can expect the results of these to be revealed by Sunday night. Until then, enjoy playing and post your thoughts on what you feel are the most problematic Pokemon in the tier as of now, as well as what you find balanced and enjoy seeing!
 
Howdy, everybody! Roserade advocate Catalisador here to give my quick First Impression on the new NU metagame!

:ss/vulpix: :ss/ninetales:

Drought is absolutely BUSTED. Thanks to new great abusers in Shiftry and Charizard as well as a viable setter in Ninetales, sun is as powerful as ever! Furthermore, with help from defensive tools such as Xatu and Porygon2, which can greatly improve Drought's matchup against hazards and strong breakers, respectively, while also providing Sunny Day + Teleport utility, the playstyle is overall extremely solid.
Other options such as Indeedee-F to provide Healing Wish support and breaking potential are also greatly appreciated.

:ss/bewear:

Hot take: my new favourite pokémon, Bewear, is absolutely ridiculous and S tier-worthy. Physically Defensive bear is my favourite set, being able to sponge hits from potent physical attackers such as Obstagoon* (may he rest in NUBL), Durant, Sharpedo and even Mienshao while breaking through bulkier teams with Taunt + Bulk Up and the combination of Drain Punch and Darkest Lariat. Of course, Swords Dance + 3 attacks is always great too.

:ss/pincurchin: :ss/raichu-alola:

Electric Terrain is absolutely disgusting. Mainly thanks to Raichu-Alola and their ability to threaten every relevant pokémon in the tier with the coverage of Rising Voltage / Grass Knot / Psychic. Furthermore, Nasty Plot and Surge Surfer make the rat an outstanding offensive pokémon, breaking through teams with ease. Moreover, other setup sweepers also greatly benefit from Electric Terrain and Raichu's breaking capabilities, like Sceptile and Articuno-Galar. Cleaners such as Sharpedo also appreciate said setuppers's abilities to break.

:ss/Sharpedo:

Speaking of the devil, all I can say is I reaaaally hope this thing turns out to be balanced because it is so fun to play with. Close Combat, Crunch and whatever filler move you're feeling like running (mine's Ice Fang/Psychic Fangs) in conjunction with a Life Orb makes the shark a demonic cleaner. Speed Boost and 120 base attack is nothing to laugh at. Moreover, usable 95 base Special Attack makes it unpredictable enough to be able to pull off special breaking sets to deal with potential checks such as physically defensive Weezing and Bewear.

:ss/Roserade:

After years of advocating for Roselia and being looked down by the anti-rose movement leaders Aawin and Rabia, I can finally say without causing any controversy: rose is a viable pick in the SS NU metagame!
At least a rose is.

:ss/indeedee: :ss/indeedee-f:

Indeedee-male is ridiculously strong and has, virtually, no switch-ins. Indeedee-female is also looking pretty cool. Access to Healing Wish and Trick utility and powerful Expanding Force / Mystical Fire coverage is fantastic. Great speed tier, solid bulk, great special attack. Fantastic pokémon.

:ss/rhyperior:

Great defensive typing and stats as well as access to Stealth Rock make Rhyperior a premier defensive glue right now. Solid Rock boosts Rhyperior's longevity even further, being able to sponge super-effective Fighting-type moves with ease in conjunction with ridiculous 115/130 physical bulk. Moreover, amazing 140 base attack and EdgeQuake coverage plus access to boosting moves in Swords Dance and Rock Polish make Rhyperior extremely versatile as an offensive threat as well. Definitely a top tier pokémon.

:ss/zoroark:

I just wanna say that I've already gotten tricked by Illusion (lol). *western accent* They got me, gal.

:ss/flygon:

Lastly, how come no one is talking about Flygon? Is this the timeline Flygon ends up in PU?! >:0

-> Edit: So, earlier today I made a new "sample" alt, in which I had the objective of getting 40 total games to see my results and get a better feel of the metagame. I managed to, quite easily, get to high-ish ladder (almost 1500s) with fun teams, mainly an Inteleon screens one, which I really recommend y'all to try.
setup proof.png

Importable: :inteleon: :duraludon: :rhyperior: :linoone: :polteageist: :barbaracle:

My final thoughts are: ban Indeedee-male, teapot is busted, Articuno-Galar kinda stinks (I can never get a proper setup...), Bewear is the best (not broken) pokémon in the metagame.

Replays:
- Inteleon screens vs. Trick Room: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1235623063-qlplku6hktn03gztlteqmcjn0md3p4npw
- Inteleon screens vs. bulky offense (I, admitedly, lost the game, but it was to a Cross Chop miss so I ultimately consider it a win... The game was fun regardless): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1235647250-5vi5r0bf0ch144bp2422d994ufj05zypw
- Inteleon screens vs. busted Indeedee (very weird game...): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1235655304-taafs1t8h6mtwos4aq0vnelny144528pw
- Inteleon screens vs. high level Snake Draft players: unfortunately, I didn't get the permission to share those, but I did win them! (OuO)
- Electric Terrain vs high ladder rain: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1235579847-grt8m3fhqqzamodmiard9vb4mqjhqxgpw
- Electric Terrain vs high ladder balance: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1235575705-wn80ay1981i3812hmpgmpiyxk3ouhfapw
- Drought vs Ho3nConfirm3d on tournament finals: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1235117797
- Busted Indeedee on tournament: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1235013694
 
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I find Indeedee-M to be incredibly busted. The main reason being expanding force of course, which I usually run with scarf. Only dark types can switch-in, yet if the user predicts correctly, they can click the right coverage move, and due to sucker punch not being an option, you end up being severely crippled or outright lose to it There is very little counterplay right now, outside of specially defensive Bronzong, which is insanely crippled by trick. There is almost zero risk in using Indeedee-M, as it pairs well with things like Pangoro, Arcanine, Silvally-Steel, and punches enough holes in bulkier mons for sweepers and things like Lucario and Linoone to clean up end-game (you know, after terrain ends). It's a lot of fun to use, but it's incredibly infuriating to face, because you have to either tip toe around it the entire game, or sack a good portion of your entire team.

This is the set I'm currently using:


Indeedee (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Hyper Voice
- Mystical Fire
- Trick

What are some checks you all have been running?

Also, this is my first post here, not that it really means anything, but I'm excited to contribute.
 

Expulso

Morse code, if I'm talking I'm clicking
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Indeedee (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Hyper Voice
- Mystical Fire
- Trick

What are some checks you all have been running?

Also, this is my first post here, not that it really means anything, but I'm excited to contribute.
Indeedee's definitely a great mon, RU had a long discussion abt whether to ban it when it was around there a few months back. We have a few more checks than they did then, although Trick is an effective way to cripple the defensive mons for teammates.

Defensive counters: SpDef Bronzong, Umbreon, Cresselia
Defensive(/balance) checks: Copperajah, Escavalier, Celebi, Uxie, AV Slowbro-Galar, Sableye
Offensive checks: Zoroark, Sharpedo, Sneasel

It's a very good Pokemon; I don't currently have an opinion on whether it is banworthy. Those are all Pokemon I would use to check it, although it can break past them to some extent with Trick or proper prediction. Note that Spdef zong, cress, celebi, and uxie can all potentially run Trick to get rid of the scarf after Indeedee tricks it to them, though it's very much a move they would prefer not to run.
 

Rabia

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fuck durant, defensive counterplay to it is minimal because hustle + its coverage makes it really hard to safely switch around, while first impression + its solid speed make offensive countermeasures less consistent too

i dont have super strong opinions on anything else---arctozolt, heracross, indd-m, pory-z all seem wack to varying degrees, and there are some others I'll probably nominate to be voted on---but durant stands out the most for me at this moment
 

Mariannabelle

chill guy
Comments:

:Polteageist: It seems barely manageable. I think it's held back a bit by the fact that we have normals like P2 around, but there are plenty of matchups in which it exerts an inordinate amount of pressure (i.e. one misplay loses you the game, rather than simply putting you at a disadvantage). Very low risk, high reward mon.

:Lucario: Any given Lucario set has its counterplay, but being prepared for every Lucario requires either some very niche picks (you can always* offensively check it with Gurdurr Mach Punch, for instance) or devoting half your team to it. NP, SD, any Choice Item, a bazillion different priority options all make this a very potent critter indeed.

:Durant: I'm not sold on this being busted, but I agree with Rabia's post.

:Indeedee: I'll play a bit of devil's advocate for this thing here; Terrain Expanding Force certainly hits hard, but there are some fairly common walls that it has to contend with, like Cresselia, Umbreon, Bronzong. Its bulk is kinda meh to the point where it can be neutrally checked by basically anything faster than it. Sure, it has Trick, but I will always hammer the point that Trick is a fairly high-risk move and you generally only get to attempt the Trick once. Even if it lands the Trick target, that just means that it's easier for the rest of your team to deal with afterwards (if your team falls apart from one Trick maybe that's a you problem).

:Ninetales: :Shiftry: :Heliolisk: Dan Brought.

---------------
Shoutouts- I think these guys deserve more love:

:Goodra: What is this thing even doing here? Use it while it lasts. Possibly the best special Tank in the tier, with solid physical and special moves.

:Celebi: This mon can do basically anything. Set hazards? Check. Spread Status? Check. Absorb Status? Check. Pivot, special sweeper, Choice user (with Trick), insane special coverage, cleric, baton pass, solid recovery, sun attacker? ALL FRIGGIN' CHECK, DUDE.

:Diancie: I like to meme around with ID/CM/Body Press/Moonblast, but I feel like this mon has plenty of options to explore. Great bulk, solid offenses to back it up. Kinda slow.
 

Finchinator

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Durant and Lucario stand out to me the most right now. Durant has insufficient counterplay flat-out, much like Rabia alludes to. You rely on missing or outpredicting it each time, but you will be resorting to fodder or risking your revenge killers otherwise. Needless to say, this is not ok. As for Lucario, it has more counterplay to each individual variant, but the big thing is that it can handpick what beats it, making it convenient for offensive teams. I think this dynamic does not highlight a very competitive side of the metagame and arguably leaves things up to guesswork.

Indeedee is also unbearably strong, but at least there are some hard stops to the sets I have seen the most. It is probably broken, but patching it right now by just tossing on a Dark + a normal backbone can at least keep it contained, which is more than you can say about the above Pokemon. Still played and spectated limited amounts, so no comment on the others yet. This metagame is just whoever packs the best structure to abuse their broken Pokemon though honestly.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
:durant: seems to me broken as it can just go ham on the team without great counterplay to it, stab choice banded first impression hurts everything, which doesnt resist, really hard and the 2 things which can counter that strategy is either psychic terrain by indeede or hoping durant misses due to hustle. but i wouldnt say stop right there with durant, as hone claws on HO teams can perform really well too, as it has not to worry about the accuracy anymore given by hustle, as hone claws boosts that imperfection to perfection. durant is also relatively fast for the nu metagame and can catch a lot of slower mons with ease.

Durant @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Superpower

Durant @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hone Claws
- Iron Head
- Superpower
- Crunch

:lucario: this one is a hell of a pokemon in nu and i think its obvious it doesnt belong there, it has a wide variety of attacking-moves and also boosting-moves, it can go for the physical route or the special route, or if you really want, the mixed route to surprise catch checks. i think lucario is easily an unhealthy pokemon for the tier, as it has the tools to demolish teams with the right support. furthermore it bringsnot a bad speed tier to the table either with 90 being decently fast for the nu tier. and with 110 and 115 in attack and special attack respectively it can be a force for the tier, as with after a boosting move it isnt that easy to stop it.

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Meteor Mash
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge / Earthquake / Extreme Speed / Bullet Punch

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Flash Cannon
- Aura Sphere
- Dark Pulse

:flygon: flygon i dont see it as broken as the aforementioned pokemon, but it can still be a pokemon, which can turn out annoying, especially with its solid typing and good speed tier, along decent offensive stats, i personally feel, that its dragon dance-set can be annoying to face - i view this set as the most problematic one for the tier, whereas defog-support sets could end up fine.

Flygon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Dual Wingbeat
- Scale Shot

No opinion on other Pokemon so far. I think Sun could turn out problematic but I think Sun without Shiftry could end up being manageable for the tier, especially with so many sun checks in it, but I do really think that :shiftry: could turn sun into a busted element so I would take a close look at how it'll turn out, as of yet, I think it is too early to tell wether sun is broken or not. the same goes to polteageist, polteageist could turn out broken, but as of now, I would prefer to look how the metagame develops, especially without the two busted steel-types in durant and lucario, which i think are problematic for the tier.
 

Corthius

diehard hockey fan
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I think Sun could turn out problematic but I think Sun without Shiftry could end up being manageable for the tier, especially with so many sun checks in it, but I do really think that :shiftry: could turn sun into a busted element so I would take a close look at how it'll turn out, as of yet, I think it is too early to tell wether sun is broken or not.
I highly disagree with that statement. In my opinion even in todays meta Drought + abuser is absolutly busted and a simple ban to Shiftry won't be enough to justify having sun unbanned in my eyes. We have more Chlorophyll abuser than we might think and even something like Maractus is pretty scary under sun if it got +2 from Growth + sun isn't necessarily only Chlorophyll mons + Ninetales. Pokemon like Charizard and Heliolisk get ridiculously strong with Solar Power and both have the coverage or power to just dump on the tier and the addition of Heavy-Duty Boots really helps Charizard (and other Fire types if you are crazy enough to run them) to do its thing and not having to worry about Stealth Rock at all.
Furthermore, a bit theorizing here: Even if Shiftry is getting banned? What stops me from abusing Leafeon which on paper has the same coverage but hits harder, has more physical bulk and is faster? The only real benefit Shfitry has is a better special attack stat to abuse its Heat Wave (which it clicks like 1/100 games) and STAB on Knock Off. I won't deny that STAB Knock Off is reall really good in the current meta and the added Dark type gives nice role compression but who cares when you don't really need to predict anyway with sun (or add a different Dark type, we have plenty).
I feel like banning Shiftry won't solve the problem that sun poses at the moment since there are way more elements that make sun busted and Shiftry is only one of them.
And its true, we might have a decent amount of checks but the only one I would find reliable is Gigalith because that stops sun too or Rock types that are faster than Ninetales/Charizard. And even than they only check Charizard and Ninetales. They don't switch in on Shiftry/other Grass types with Chlorophyll and these Grass types usually all have access to Weather Ball or Fire coverage so you can't simply check them with Steel types like you would normally without sun. You basically need Gigalith or max spdef Diancie + a defensive Dragon type like Dragalge or Druddigon / a defensive Fire type like Arcanine to only check the combination of Ninetales + Charizard + broken Chlorophyll abuser and that doesn't even include that you might face a Heliolisk too. And don't bring the P2 argument. That thing cumbles against Life Orb Solar Power Focus Blast. And all of these mons can't handle the current spam of Electric Terrain + Unburden mon / Alolan Raichu nor against Indeedee.
I know that is a bit dumb to say because at the moment you simply can't prepare for every single threat there but sun is one of the most busted and restricting ones we have in my eyes.
 
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Like others I'll give my thoughts on the most problematic of the drops.
1607010218620.png
- Like Rabia and Finch said, this thing is pretty insane. A really strong attack stat and speed tier coupled with amazing coverage like thunder fang, crunch, rock slide, superpower, stomping tantrum, and hone claws to complement it's stabs in First Impression and Iron Head is way to strong for the tier. The best counterplay you have to it is hoping it misses with hustle. It can't run every move at once but it can effectively pick and choose it's counters, making it too much for the tier to handle.
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- these 3 mons are very similar in the fact that they are super unpredictable with the ability to go physical or special and have the coverage to do so. All 3 of these mons are strong already, but when you send in a palossand thinking you'll take a CC from lucario only for it to nasty plot and blast you with dark pulse. Lucario is definitely the most broken with it's killer offenses and i wouldn't ban shark or zoroark just yet, but they definitely should be monitored still.
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-these 4 are stupid breakers. We've had arctozolt and tyrantrum before and they are still wayy to strong for the tier, 2HKOing nearly everything in the tier. Raichu under electric terrain with rising voltage is disgusting and it has lots of coverage to bypass electric resists. Heracross is a mini obstagoon with its guts set having no switch ins and scarf being super good still. If only one had to go it would be arctozolt, but watch these with extreme caution as well.
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-these 2 basically mandate a dark type or you lose. Teapot's shell smash sets and indeede's expanding force break the tier. Polteageist is much more broken due to having less resists because of it's great offensive typing. Both just smash everything and you basically need something to resist the hits for you to not lose
1607010482302.png
- like the post above, i don't see shiftry as a problem, but sun as a whole is problematic. The post above covers it really well so i wont go too in depth, but yeah ban drought.
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-these 4 have gone under the radar and while they wont go this first slate, I would be surprised to see them last by the end of the month. Belly drum sets for linoone and slurpuff alongside strong power of mienshao and porygon-z looks too strong for the tier, but all that depends on how the tier adapts to the above mons going at some point.
 
I've had a lot fun building in the tier and decided share my two cents.

:mienshao: Finally, a mon to surpass Primeape and Passimian. With Regenerator this mon becomes a crazy good late game cleaner and annoying pivot. Along with a better speed tier and attack it's kinda insane. Scarf fighting types are always a useful in NU so this mon will rise in prominence eventually or it'll just rise in usage. LO Reckless could be a fun wallbreaker mon as well.

:Golurk: Now I know why it rose after it was given Poltergeist. SR + 3 Attacks is pretty good. Always guaranteed to get rocks or at least some damage to the opp if played right. Only real downside is its speed tier and when it can switch in. RP sets sound good on paper too.

:arcanine: Another mon that I grown quite fond as of late. The defensive set is probably its best set atm(Wilo/Morning Sun/Flamethrower/Teleport). It can put a burn on most rockers and weaken them down. Can switch in on a good chunk of phys attackers as well thanks to intimidate. You can also try toxic as well. Will become real solid in the future.

:slowbro-galar: AV is fantastic. Provides a lot of support being a T-Spike Absorber and alright offensive presence thanks to it having fire coverage. Good mon for the tier.

:Aerodactyl: :Archeops: These two mons enjoy HDBs alot. They provide good speed control with also good offensive stats and movepools to work with.

:bewear: Already mentioned a good bit above and I have nothing really to add. Good wall and wallbreaker. Great for fit for the tier imo.

Many of the broken mons have been mentioned above and there's probably even more once they stopped getting overshadowed by the current. There's way too many mons to keep track of at the moment and the meta wont truly settle until every other tier goes through their bans and change up usage. When January/February roll around I can see this tier being different once more. Probably the most wild iteration of NU I have seen yet so lets enjoy it. :blobthumbsup:
 

Mariannabelle

chill guy
It's time for Mari's Unpopular Opinion hour:

:Abomasnow: :Aurorus: :Vanilluxe: :Sandslash-Alola: :Arctovish: :Arctozolt:

Ban Snow Warning, too.

Let's talk about offensive counterplay.

Offensive counterplay to something involves positioning yourself in order to limit their opportunities to switch in, maintaining a speed advantage so you can beat them before they act, squishing their team with wallbreakers, etc.

All of this kind of crumbles in the face of today's Hail, and I'll explain why.

After all, why not just limit the Arcto's ability to get in? Sounds no different than business as usual. Well, it is different than business as usual, because unlike what we've seen for the past few months, we actually have multiple snow setters again. Basically, getting snow turn 1 and immediately saccing a setter is feasible, because you have snow for the next eternity and you have another setter to use later. Playing offensively against my setter doesn't matter because sacking turn one is a perfectly fine option.

You would think that stacking abuser Ice typings would be bad, but this isn't the case- virtually everything that would take advantage of their weaknesses to KO them is simply being outsped and KO'd under Hail. Who cares if I'm stacking a weakness to Aerodactyl? It doesn't get to do anything because it's outsped and dead. Maintaining a speed advantage to strike their weaknesses is unfeasible, unless you wanna run a meme like Scarf Aerodactyl or whatever. Pressuring a hail team with wallbreakers is similarly not an option, because hail wallbreakers outspeed other wallbreakers (and everything else) and OHKO the vast majority of neutral opponents. Even Fluffy Bewear is taking upwards of 60% per hit, and you have two Arctos to deal with as well as whatever their Bewear answer is.

Defensive counterplay is more feasible, but it isn't adequate; the answers to everything on the hail team are few and far-between, and a lot of them are shaky besides. Jellicent isn't a very solid Arctovish answer, because of Crunch and Freeze Dry as options, while Arctozolt is even more oppressive.
At the end of the day, a generic team's "counterplay" to hail might involve switching to immunities/ice resistances for seven turns in order to buy a turn or two to poke their team while they set the hail all over again.

Gigalith is laughable as a Hail answer. Gigalith might take down a setter or an abuser, but any hail abuser (or abomasnow, if that's your setter) attacks Gigalith and either OHKO's (Arctovish) or hurts Gigalith sufficiently enough that it can no longer check anything. (Bolt Beak hit, Iron Head from Sandslash, LeafStorm/Wood Hammer from Abomasnow, etc). Are you really gonna lead Gigalith against a team with Arctovish? Especially when they have a snow setter (or two..) to spare?

Shoutout to priority options like Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, just kidding. Specs Lucario is only doing 60-90 to either Arcto with Vac Wave. Yay, your hail check died and the chip doesn't matter because everything else is outsped and KO'd.
 

jcbc

lechonk is so cute
is a Pre-Contributor
Ok so, it's been already almost a full week since the first round of quickbans and people have been dropping his opinions regarding the meta so i might aswell give my two cents about it. Overall i think the meta is more stable than people make it out to be but there's some obvius pokemons that need to go for the sanity of the tier.

:durant:: Okey i don't think i gotta go to long on this one; a lot of people stated why this pokemon is busted as bricks already so not gonna lose time repeating.

:polteageist:: This one to me is to me, not broken rn; i'll explain myself. With veil out of the scene and the tier fullfilled with dark types in every single team and strong priority in a lot of pokemons is hard to say this pokemon is broken. Now, it is true that it's hard (to not say impossible) to discredit the teapot, it does what no other pokemon does very well, outright sweep teams without much counterplay to it. But coming from my experience it hardly ever got to be a menace where i said "ok i lose to teapot" in preview. It may turn to be a problematic pokemon after the first round of bans but as for now i don't see it as the main problem of the tier.

:raichu-alola:: This is just disgusting to face, raichuA by its own is an amazing pokemon with great speed tier, nice coverage and good base SpA added to a boosting move to NP; but if we sum all of this which is already amazing and add electric terrain to the formula we get an unstoppable sweeper and breaker, which is pretty unhealthy.

Sun: This one has been a top discussion topic so i'm going to elaborate more what i think. I think that anyone that played enough of this meta knows how unfair sun can be as it is rn; so what makes sun good? With this shifts we got the addition of :charizard: and :shiftry: 2 of the best sun abusers existing in pokemon (aside from venusaur but that one is not here so no talk for the saur plant). Charizard by itself doesn't have chlorophyl so it doesnt abuse sun with speed but with power creep; it's no secret that chari hits like none other mon does undee sun thanks to solar power, having limited to not say unexistant safe switch-n and while it usually doesn't carry boots (so rocks can cripple it) it doesnt hurt it as much, xatu and a very opressing team overall makes putting rocks a hard task, now, with all this said. I consider chari to not be the problem as to why sun is so opressing. The next mon that needs to get looked at is shiftry; this one is just something else, base 100 atk with acces to SD knock and solar blade summed with boosting move growth is just mad strong. I understand as to why people think the problem remains on this pokemon and don't get me wrong, if the decision on the council ends up being banning this mon i wouldnt oppose at all. But instead i thinl there's a better solution, sun rn doesn't have much pivoting moves on its setters (mainly ninetales, xatu and rockers such as regirock) so in my opinion (and i know i'm not the only one to think this way) banning :heat-rock: would fix the sun problem. Limiting turns of sun makes it hard for sun sweepers such as shiftry to shine because you are using 2 turns just to switch shiftry in (which in a lot of situations is hard to make it happen due to shiftry bad defensive typing and frail defensive stats) and another to boosts, usually to make this happen you sack something but rn that's worth it because thanks to heat rock you get 2 extra turns so the number of kills you get on the moment are balanced out for the sack you just made, but if we get heat rock out of the formula, its hard to make it worth and it would be more balanced.

:tyrantrum:: Okey so this is one pokemon that i've used a lot and despite that i missed aprox. 70% of my head smash (not joking i missed 7 in a row in one game) i can tell this pokemon is/will be unhealthy for the metagame, it has coverage to run through all the counters it can have and its stabs just makes the cherry on top of the cake. Maybe the slate on this weekend is not the moment to ban it as there are other pokemons/matters that deserve more faster actions from the council imo but it still doesnt have a safe way to handle it.

:cresselia:: I'm surprised no one has talked yet about the moon. This mon is ANNOYING, i'm not saying its broken or anything but god, its just so hard to play around it and to kill. It's fat and hits kinda hard for a non invested pokemon. Just wanted to show my hate to cresselia here tho, the pokemon is fine and its a good addition to the actual metagame.

:porygon-z:: I still can't believe we have the duck here lol, this just claims every time, all 3 sets (scarf, specs and double dance) are top menaces that are just bs to face. Having to sack one mon every time it comes in makes it hard to justify for little Z duck to give some fairness or healthyiness to the tier (hint: it's broken).

:lucario:: Another controversial pokemon here. Lucario while is definetly a top mon idt it's a broken one. It is true that it has coverage on all its sets to go past all its checks, but it has a massive 4MSS, it wants a dark move to hit jellicent and other bulky ghosts, both stabs to hit hard and go past the checks of those, priority to not be easily revenge killed and a boosting move to not feel frail. This summs on a headache for the lucario user and while it's true that lucario can pick what it wants to kill, idt thats a fair and strong enough point to say its worth the boot.

:sharpedo:: I've been a vocal hater of the shark, i just can't see how this is balanced and not broken at all. Both physical and special can easily clean games with very little chip on its common checks. And having to guess which set are you facing to switch one thing or another makes it just impossible to not end up losing to it.

:indeedee:: And to finish for now, i want to talk about indeedee, i feel like this pokemon is going under the radar because of the lucario/sun/durant/teapot discussion but this is still outright unhealthy even after the dlc. Having to guess which move it's going to use every time so you don't just die to expanding force or hyper voice is a hard no to me. I honestly would like this out of the tier.

To conclude and to show my opinion in a visual way:

BANS: :durant:, :heat-rock:, :sharpedo:, :indeedee:, :porygon-Z:, :raichu-alola:

NO BANS: :lucario:, :cresselia:

SHOULD GET REVISITED/LOOKED AT AGAIN AFTER THE VOTING: :tyrantrum:, :shiftry:, :polteageist:, :icy-rock:

ANOTHER POKEMONS THAT I DIDN'T TALKED ABOUT BUT ARE GREAT: :pangoro:, :diancie:, :copperajah:, :dragalge:, :milotic:, :noivern:, :golisopod:, :golurk:, :bewear:, :arcanine:, :mienshao:
 
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It's time for Mari's Unpopular Opinion hour:

:Abomasnow: :Aurorus: :Vanilluxe: :Sandslash-Alola: :Arctovish: :Arctozolt:

Ban Snow Warning, too.

Let's talk about offensive counterplay.

Offensive counterplay to something involves positioning yourself in order to limit their opportunities to switch in, maintaining a speed advantage so you can beat them before they act, squishing their team with wallbreakers, etc.

All of this kind of crumbles in the face of today's Hail, and I'll explain why.

After all, why not just limit the Arcto's ability to get in? Sounds no different than business as usual. Well, it is different than business as usual, because unlike what we've seen for the past few months, we actually have multiple snow setters again. Basically, getting snow turn 1 and immediately saccing a setter is feasible, because you have snow for the next eternity and you have another setter to use later. Playing offensively against my setter doesn't matter because sacking turn one is a perfectly fine option.

You would think that stacking abuser Ice typings would be bad, but this isn't the case- virtually everything that would take advantage of their weaknesses to KO them is simply being outsped and KO'd under Hail. Who cares if I'm stacking a weakness to Aerodactyl? It doesn't get to do anything because it's outsped and dead. Maintaining a speed advantage to strike their weaknesses is unfeasible, unless you wanna run a meme like Scarf Aerodactyl or whatever. Pressuring a hail team with wallbreakers is similarly not an option, because hail wallbreakers outspeed other wallbreakers (and everything else) and OHKO the vast majority of neutral opponents. Even Fluffy Bewear is taking upwards of 60% per hit, and you have two Arctos to deal with as well as whatever their Bewear answer is.

Defensive counterplay is more feasible, but it isn't adequate; the answers to everything on the hail team are few and far-between, and a lot of them are shaky besides. Jellicent isn't a very solid Arctovish answer, because of Crunch and Freeze Dry as options, while Arctozolt is even more oppressive.
At the end of the day, a generic team's "counterplay" to hail might involve switching to immunities/ice resistances for seven turns in order to buy a turn or two to poke their team while they set the hail all over again.

Gigalith is laughable as a Hail answer. Gigalith might take down a setter or an abuser, but any hail abuser (or abomasnow, if that's your setter) attacks Gigalith and either OHKO's (Arctovish) or hurts Gigalith sufficiently enough that it can no longer check anything. (Bolt Beak hit, Iron Head from Sandslash, LeafStorm/Wood Hammer from Abomasnow, etc). Are you really gonna lead Gigalith against a team with Arctovish? Especially when they have a snow setter (or two..) to spare?

Shoutout to priority options like Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, just kidding. Specs Lucario is only doing 60-90 to either Arcto with Vac Wave. Yay, your hail check died and the chip doesn't matter because everything else is outsped and KO'd.
I feel like banning Snow Warning would just automatically ruin any viability for most (if not all) of the mons involved in those teams (Who would use Soundproof Abomasnow? For example)
 

Mariannabelle

chill guy
I feel like banning Snow Warning would just automatically ruin any viability for most (if not all) of the mons involved in those teams (Who would use Soundproof Abomasnow? For example)
That really does not matter whatsoever. It certainly is true that the viability of snow mons leans more on the weather when compared to sun mons that tend to stand by themselves better.
However, we do not base bans around making sure x y or z mon is still viable. Obstagoon was not banned for the sake of Indeedee, it was banned because it was bad for the tier.

Likewise, “but poor Abomasnow” is not a reason to preserve Snow Warning.

(editted for clarity)
 
It's time for Mari's Unpopular Opinion hour:

:Abomasnow: :Aurorus: :Vanilluxe: :Sandslash-Alola: :Arctovish: :Arctozolt:

Ban Snow Warning, too.

Let's talk about offensive counterplay.

Offensive counterplay to something involves positioning yourself in order to limit their opportunities to switch in, maintaining a speed advantage so you can beat them before they act, squishing their team with wallbreakers, etc.

All of this kind of crumbles in the face of today's Hail, and I'll explain why.

After all, why not just limit the Arcto's ability to get in? Sounds no different than business as usual. Well, it is different than business as usual, because unlike what we've seen for the past few months, we actually have multiple snow setters again. Basically, getting snow turn 1 and immediately saccing a setter is feasible, because you have snow for the next eternity and you have another setter to use later. Playing offensively against my setter doesn't matter because sacking turn one is a perfectly fine option.

You would think that stacking abuser Ice typings would be bad, but this isn't the case- virtually everything that would take advantage of their weaknesses to KO them is simply being outsped and KO'd under Hail. Who cares if I'm stacking a weakness to Aerodactyl? It doesn't get to do anything because it's outsped and dead. Maintaining a speed advantage to strike their weaknesses is unfeasible, unless you wanna run a meme like Scarf Aerodactyl or whatever. Pressuring a hail team with wallbreakers is similarly not an option, because hail wallbreakers outspeed other wallbreakers (and everything else) and OHKO the vast majority of neutral opponents. Even Fluffy Bewear is taking upwards of 60% per hit, and you have two Arctos to deal with as well as whatever their Bewear answer is.

Defensive counterplay is more feasible, but it isn't adequate; the answers to everything on the hail team are few and far-between, and a lot of them are shaky besides. Jellicent isn't a very solid Arctovish answer, because of Crunch and Freeze Dry as options, while Arctozolt is even more oppressive.
At the end of the day, a generic team's "counterplay" to hail might involve switching to immunities/ice resistances for seven turns in order to buy a turn or two to poke their team while they set the hail all over again.

Gigalith is laughable as a Hail answer. Gigalith might take down a setter or an abuser, but any hail abuser (or abomasnow, if that's your setter) attacks Gigalith and either OHKO's (Arctovish) or hurts Gigalith sufficiently enough that it can no longer check anything. (Bolt Beak hit, Iron Head from Sandslash, LeafStorm/Wood Hammer from Abomasnow, etc). Are you really gonna lead Gigalith against a team with Arctovish? Especially when they have a snow setter (or two..) to spare?

Shoutout to priority options like Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, just kidding. Specs Lucario is only doing 60-90 to either Arcto with Vac Wave. Yay, your hail check died and the chip doesn't matter because everything else is outsped and KO'd.
Pretty solid post but I do think that instead of banning snow warning a ban on arctozolt would be better. It’s bolt beam stabs nuke everything and can even run mixed to hit stuff like piloswine. Artcovish is very good but i don’t think it’s as broken as the other counterpart. I’d prefer if zolt was banned and if vish is too much just ban vish as well or ban snow warning and unban arctozolt. But yeah zolt makes hail stupid in my opinion, I’d like to see how hail works without arctozolt before taking action on snow warning
 

Fragmented

procrastinating...
is a Pokemon Researcher
That really does not matter whatsoever. It certainly is true that the viability of snow mons leans more on the weather when compared to sun mons that tend to stand by themselves better.
However, we do not base bans around making sure x y or z mon is still viable. Obstagoon was not banned for the sake of Indeedee, it was banned because it was bad for the tier.

Likewise, “but poor Abomasnow” is not a reason to preserve Snow Warning.

(editted for clarity)
Is Hail really the problem here though? Haven't played much of the meta myself using hail, but to me, it seems like the Arctos are what's pushing Hail over the edge, rather than the other way round. It can be argued both ways that hail enables the Arctos, or that the Arctos make hail hell to deal with. Pre-Tundra when their HAs weren't released, hail was definitely less common and more manageable, since the only abusers were like Sandslash-Alola, Beartic and Glaceon. Post-Tundra, hail only started to become a problem due to the presence of Slush Rush Arctos, which pretty much everyone noticed at this point (note: this was even before Aurorus dropped to NU, so talking about Rocks + Weather role compression making the playstyle broken is kind of moot since it was already broken as soon as the HAs were released).

Arctos being able to take hits doesn't contribute to the argument that Snow Warning is a problem, it just means that the Arctos are bulky enough to take a hit. Hail without Arctos is kind of bad unless you can prove this to be otherwise. And with the Aurora Veil ban, hail just becomes worse. In your argument, it seems most of the points that you derive your argument from stem from the the presence of the Arctos on the hail team, which I totally agree with. Remove the Arctos, and suddenly hail becomes much more manageable.

tl,dr; Snow Warning isn't the problem, ban the Arctos
 
It's time for Mari's Unpopular Opinion hour:

:Abomasnow: :Aurorus: :Vanilluxe: :Sandslash-Alola: :Arctovish: :Arctozolt:

Ban Snow Warning, too.
Why must you hurt me? Are you suggesting I've been playing all-ice wrong this whole time?
I get the feeling most of the problems you're describing are coming from the Arcto-fossils, which have only recently returned because of lack of usage in higher tiers. Then we'd only be left with Slushslash and Beartic as the Slush Rushers, neither of which are as stellar thanks to Aurora Veil getting zucc'd. Beartic is a few speed points slower than the fossils which allows anything with base 83+ speed or higher (like Magmortar) with a scarf to still outpace, and Slushslash is KO'd after LOrb or Stealth Rock chip from the Lucario scenario you mentioned.

Not just for my sake, but let's start small, with sending off the Arcto-boyz first.
 
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Mariannabelle

chill guy
Thanks for the responses, everyone : )

I've gotten several responses suggesting that, rather than a Snow Warning ban, perhaps everything will be just fine if we whack an Arcto. This is a reasonable position, but I would ask you to consider this-

At what point do we consider the weather itself to be the broken element?
After all, we already had to address Hail once: Aurora Veil was quickbanned because the Hail teams using it were broken.
Assuming something is done about Arctozolt, that will be strike two against Hail.

The general consensus that I've seen, with regards to Sun, is that a single ban on Shiftry wouldn't fix the Sun problem, as teams would still be evaporating under Charizard, and there are other (albeit worse) Chlorophyll sweepers to take Shiftry's place. No, the way to address Sun is to attack it directly a la direct ban, or at least a Heat Rock ban.

Notice how nobody thinks we should chip away a little bit at Sun with a ban here, chip some more with a ban there, maybe another ban later. No. The weather is broken. Sure, you could neuter sun effectively with ban after ban after ban, but there's no need to do that. No need to fill NUBL with a bunch of Sun mons just so we can have a husk of Sun left to own your little brother with.
<EDIT: Alright, fine. It's not cut and dry as I was making it out to be. Yes, there's plenty of discussion to be had on whether it's Shiftry or Sun that needs to go.>

How many bans do we need to slap Hail teams with before it's acknowledged that maybe banning Snow Warning is less destructive?
 
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Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
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unsure why aurora veil teams are being equated as hail teams because they really aren't the same thing at all; the team structures are vastly different, and the only similarity is that they each involve hail. calling hail as an archetype broken doesn't include aurora veil, at least in my eyes

I think the issue is pretty cut and dry to be Arctozolt because it's nigh impossible to wall. Arctovish is a lot worse off because its coverage is simply not as great, and it's also a bit weaker. Sure, maybe hail does prove to be busted with Arctovish; at that point I'd be willing to explore a Snow Warning ban entirely, but I don't believe that's been shown to be the case.

edit: willing to listen to arguments that go along the lines of "hey look at Snow Warning enabling both Aurora Veil teams and hail cores to be very broken"; I just very much value this potentially needless distinction

Also, I 1000% am in the do not ban Drought camp; I think if anything is to be done about sun teams that a Shiftry ban should be the action taken because it's the component of those teams that gives them as much leeway in games. Such teams otherwise have notable issues getting by Pokemon like Goodra, Dragalge, and Centiskorch, but because Shiftry generally doesn't care a whole lot about bulky Dragon- and Fire-types, they don't. I do think there's an argument to be made about Drought vs Shiftry because I don't think anyone is going to claim that Shiftry on its own is too much for the tier, and banning Drought is certainly simpler. I don't really care which route we end up going down when all is said and done, but I disagree with the notions that "it's obviously Drought."
 

Expulso

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durant and lucario very obviously need to go imo, a lot of other things too but absolutely these 2.

:durant: durant will run iron head then can pick and choose any of
superpower / rock slide / thunder fang / first impression / x-scissor / crunch
to choose what its checks are. i say checks not counters bc even resisted attacks hit stupidly hard; someone predicted my lo durant’s superpower, went to croak, and took 67%. neutral hits are insanely strong; it’s impossible to switch into and you can usually only defeat it by being lucky and dodging.

:lucario: lucario is less “impossible” to stop, but in a full game the few fight resists that can take a meteor mash (mantine) will get worn down thru knock, status, having to check other things. even then mantine isnt stopping it unless scald burns (or maybe if u run haze, which is bad). Physical priority lets it tear thru offense, but running other coverage / special sets lets u destroy fat teams. less completely unstoppable than durant but still very much needs to go.

========
It's time for Mari's Unpopular Opinion hour:

:Abomasnow: :Aurorus: :Vanilluxe: :Sandslash-Alola: :Arctovish: :Arctozolt:

Ban Snow Warning, too.
i pull up with scarf mienshao and click close combat. wyd

in all seriousness i think hail can be pretty easily out offensed, the hail sweepers are slower than almost all common scarfers (with indeedee, flygon, mienshao being a few examples). the opportunity cost of setting hail and sacking something / slow pivoting for ur (non-zolt) hail breaker to get a KO is far greater than for other breakers like sd Lucario, which require far less support to net KOs and can sweep more easily. even tho i say lucario is broken this is true of many other breakers (like, idk, lo golurk) that can reliably pick up kills but need help to get in safely and almost certainly wont sweep.

:arctozolt: I do think that arctozolt is just too uncheckable for fat teams and should be banned, but hail without it really won’t be a problem.

========

concerning sun:
:shiftry: shiftry should probably be banned; very limited pool of checks and it’s extremely strong, fast enough for most scarfers, and can either break thru any fat team with growth heat wave stabs or circumvent the most common offensive counterplay (first impression) with protect.

i disagree with @corthius’s contention that sun will be just as broken without shiftry; leafeon lacks a dual stab to break thru grass resists, and its fire coverage (weather ball) comes off of 60 base spatk and cant be boosted by growth. sure, the sun wallbreakers (zard helio etc) will be very strong, but similarly to hail there’s a lot of support necessary to get them to begin wallbreaking. it will still be worth looking into because the absurd power of solar power zard might be too much for fat teams, but i think banning shiftry then looking at it again is the right call.

========

:raichu-alola: this is p much unwallable and is fast enough to not be revenged by scarfers. sure u can hit it with priority, but do we rly want to make a strong prio user 100% mandatory to deal with it? it’s way too much, even though eterrain support can be annoying to provide / it’s hard to switch in the raw speed and power is just too great for the tier.

========


:indeedee: this is very very strong, i’m not 100% sold on broken just because of the presence of checks like cress bronzong copperajah gigalith + dark-types, but it’s a massive threat that should probably be banned. additionally the support it gives offense thru protection from priority can really enable teammates like sharpedo to sweep in the offense v offense/bo matchup.

i’d probably vote ban on this but less certain than the mons listed above


:polteageist:: This one to me is to me, not broken rn; i'll explain myself. With veil out of the scene and the tier fullfilled with dark types in every single team and strong priority in a lot of pokemons is hard to say this pokemon is broken. Now, it is true that it's hard (to not say impossible) to discredit the teapot, it does what no other pokemon does very well, outright sweep teams without much counterplay to it. But coming from my experience it hardly ever got to be a menace where i said "ok i lose to teapot" in preview. It may turn to be a problematic pokemon after the first round of bans but as for now i don't see it as the main problem of the tier.
:polteageist: I disagree with this statement about Polteageist, I think it is (probably) too much for the tier. Sash sets almost necessitate priority, and even then strength sap can render prio insufficient as counterplay once it heals up. It finds plenty of opportunities to set up on defensive mons like haze-less mantine. additionally, I think there are a lot less dark types than you asserted above. umbreon, pangoro, zoroark, and sharpedo are the only ones that come to mind; umbreon only fits on very specific team compositions (that would often prefer to use a different cleric if not for this mon and indeedee), and the other 3 drop to Giga Drain with very little prior chip. Dark types don’t naturally end up on every team as you claim.
however, it might be worthy of a little more time just by being 1) hard counter-able and 2) frail set up sweeper, thus requiring more support

================

:heracross: i forgot this was a thing but it’s probably too good of a breaker. Lol i totally forgot abt it due to the 10 brokens listed above but this can just mow thru teams; only reason i havent seen it be more of a problem is bc when i used it i ran into nothing but HO. despite the lower speed tier than the brokens above it’s still probably banworthy.

:porygon-z: :tyrantrum: these are probably crazy and too much for the tier, ttrum moreso than porygon-z due to its lack of steel coverage (leaving it walled by general special mons like copperajah gigalith ttrum). i haven’t seen them once tho so cant say more

:sharpedo: I personally don’t think shark is banworthy. Bulky waters like mantine and milotic can sit in front of it and wall it quite effectively, so can misc walls like sylveon. bulky offense staples like golis and bewear aren’t threatened with an ohko and can ko back. it drops to any priority, and neutral attacks dont KO so it can be defeated by keeping one neutral mon healthy in the back. for example, it’s unable to OHKO 0/0 rotom-mow after rocks iirc; not too hard to keep it in the back to prevent a late game shark sweep. could be overwhelming down the line but rn i really dont see it. current brokens are stretching teams thin, but this mon’s inability to break common defensive cores prevents it from “broken” status. Would not ban

======
recap:

100% ban: :durant: :lucario: :shiftry: :raichu-alola: :arctozolt: :shiftry:
probably ban: :indeedee: :polteageist: :heracross:
maybe ban: :porygon-z: :tyrantrum:
do not ban [lets see in a few weeks]: :sharpedo:

not banworthy but SO good and you should use them: :bewear: :slowbro-galar: (cm or av both rock)
 
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Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I disagree with the notions that "it's obviously Drought."
As much as I think that Rabia makes a great point here about Shiftry being the enabler, Drought right now is inherently broken in my eyes, allowing some of the craziest damage calcs I've ever seen on mons like Zard or Lisk (sleeper sun pick imo) that really put it over the top while overwhelming entire teams and walls.
Charizard  sprite from Sword & Shield

Looking at potential sun walls in the tier, as mentioned in the quoted post, mons like Goodra, Dragalge, and Centiskorch come to mind, and although Shiftry usually breaks these wide open for Zard to nuke, it isn't even necessary. On it's own, because of Solar Power+Specs, Zard becomes the strongest breaker in the tier, literally 2 or 3HKOing those checks, and because those mons have negligible to no recovery, most can only switch in once (besides AV Goodra, which takes an unholy amount for that bulk).

Goodra:
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Goodra in Sun: 131-155 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra in Sun: 88-104 (22.9 - 27.1%) -- 50.8% chance to 4HKO

Dragalge:
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragalge in Sun: 203-239 (74.9 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge in Sun: 153-180 (45.8 - 53.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge in Sun: 197-232 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Centiskorch:
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Centiskorch in Sun: 530-626 (155.4 - 183.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Centiskorch in Sun: 374-444 (92.5 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

P2:
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 244-288 (65.2 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 260-306 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gigalith in the Sand:
252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 192-228 (51.3 - 60.9%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This mon in the sun really has no true counters. Like none (but if I missed a huge one tell me. I need checks to this demon LOL). Imo, even if you ban Shiftry, who breaks open for and heavily appreciates Zard as a partner, teams won't be able to handle Zard on it's own. I wouldn't be surprised to see Tales+Zard cores on standard teams absolutely demolishing balance/slower builds without breaking a sweat. Outside of sun though, I think this mon will be really neat as a fast/strong defogger with the potential to throw off heavy damage on a lot of teams, especially with addition of boots. The only part enabling the sheer damage output it's capable of at the moment is drought, not Shiftry.
Shiftry  sprite from Sword & Shield

I've been running sun over the past few days, and although I can safely say this guy is also broken on dedicated sun teams, it often falls VERY flat outside of it. Drought lets it outspeed and KO 1/2 the tier, especially with an upgraded STAB in Solar Blade, boosted Heat Waves, and a great set up move in Growth. Without that speed, potential checks in faster mons, such as Heracross or Mienshao, suddenly blow it back with a myriad of strong attacks. It's pretty mediocre defenses+typing don't help it either. The glass cannon that would normally smash the tier disappears outside of sun. I think this mon might be really interesting as a potential defogger or balance breaker outside sun, although I wouldn't be surprised to see it drop at first.

concerning sun:
:shiftry: shiftry should probably be banned; very limited pool of checks and it’s extremely strong, fast enough for most scarfers, and can either break thru any fat team with growth heat wave stabs or circumvent the most common offensive counterplay (first impression) with protect.

i disagree with @corthius’s contention that sun will be just as broken without shiftry; leafeon lacks a dual stab to break thru grass resists, and its fire coverage (weather ball) comes off of 60 base spatk and cant be boosted by growth. sure, the sun wallbreakers (zard helio etc) will be very strong, but similarly to hail there’s a lot of support necessary to get them to begin wallbreaking. it will still be worth looking into because the absurd power of solar power zard might be too much for fat teams, but i think banning shiftry then looking at it again is the right call.
I think Expulso brought up a really cool point here too about how much weaker sun would be as a playstyle without Shiftry while looking for potential alternatives, and although him and Rabia are both right in that aspect, I have to agree with Corthius here. I think banning Shiftry won't actually fix anything because of the enormous strain that the Solar Power abusers alone would put on slower, bulkier teams. Yes you lose the powerful chlorophyll sweeper, but the breaking potential alone opens up for so many other mons with ease, especially when built around.

TL:DR Drought enables the broken aspects of sun, and banning just Shiftry doesn't fix that. Instead dan brought to settle the problem entirely.
 
Tiers have seen time and time again that banning the abusers just doesn't solve the problem unless the abusers are completely irreplaceable. So banning Raichu-A fixes E-Terrain but banning Shiftry doesn't solve sun, because sun still has Zard, Heliolisk, and other Chlorophyll users. They might not be quite as good as Shiftry, but it leaves the tier open to future problems. I don't personally put any value on preserving sun as a playstyle in this tier.

I would personally recommend being much lighter on the bans than most other people. From what I've seen, the meta is actually somewhat balanced right now, albeit oddly. It's very heavy on offense, but Durant and Lucario really help check a lot of the other busted nonsense, and a lot of the busted nonsense help check the giant balls of stats. And the other shoe to drop here is that if all this stuff gets banned, there are other Shell Smashers that will get much harder to deal with.

We also don't know which of the ones that stick around may rise back to RU. If Bewear, for instance - which no one thinks is ban worthy but I think most people would put as at least A+ tier right now - goes, then you're talking about the entire meta getting redefined again a month from now. We don't which Pokemon between the ones that get banned and don't get banned will be the ones that RU takes back, and the most likely tier change for more instability is the next one.

It feels to me that if the bans start in earnest, it's rapidly going to wind up with 12-15 Pokemon on NUBL and I don't think that's desirable. There has to be a recalibration for everyone right now. Crown Tundra introduced something like 40 Pokemon that have stuck in OU/UU/RU - that's essentially an entire tier of Pokemon in this generation, where those three tiers average about 45 Pokemon each. If the Pokemon wasn't too strong for RU before CT, I would want to think very long and hard before thinking that it's too strong for NU now. If everything is broken, then nothing is broken.

I would personally ban Drought, Indeedee, and probably just stop for now. I doubt that's how it plays out in reality, but I would strongly advocate for this being done incrementally. It's a lot tougher to unban stuff than to ban it in the first place.
 
Just to add my two cents to the conversation:

Drought
There are already plenty of people that have weighed in on this, but I have to side with Corthius; drought is the problem and as much as Shiftry pushes it, it is not by any stretch the only mon that makes drought busted. See Pokeslice's post to see how absurd Charizard is in the sun and just to add on the third horse of the sun apocalypse, we can talk about Heliolisk for a second. While not as absurdly strong as the other two, it has the options of scarf for a terrifying cleaner in sun, specs for raw power, boots for longevity and just generally adds another mon to the cascade of potent offensive threats in the sun. But what really pushes sun over the edge is the fact that these are just the top most threats, this is not including other potent abusers, including but not limited to:

:Vileplume: :Leafeon: :Maractus: :Exeggutor: and this isn't including Ninetales option to go offensive and really just abusing fire coverage in general. They may not be as powerful as the primary abusers, but only the foolish would dismiss them.

If this isn't enough detail for you, there are plenty of other posts describing the problem drought poses for the tier and I'm not gonna kick a dead horse any more than necessary. TLDR ban Drought for everyone's sanity.

===========

Other mons will be brief since again, there are plenty of other posts on them.

:Durant:
As a UU player last gen, let me tell you that this was one of the better RUBL mons, and really the main thing holding it back was its lack of priority to deal with scarfers. Well guess what, it has strong priority in First Impression now that shreds anything that doesn't pack a resist, and even those are getting seriously chunked. There is quite literally no true counter to this demon thanks to its variety of coverage options. Honestly, I'm surprised this thing wasn't quick banned but now we just need to ban it.

:Indeedee:
This thing switches in on fat and proceeds to blow things up. Be it Scarf or Specs, this thing has amazing power and while there are checks, its not really fair to say there are counters, because the only mons truly capable of walling it, Spdef Bronzong (bar repeated Mystical Fires) and Umbreon, can just be tricked and/or taken out by Indeedee's teammates. Get this thing out.

:Sharpedo:
This is easily the best cleaner in the tier. Until now, Sharpedo has never dropped below RU (where its promptly been banned) for a very simple reason, it gets in against offensive teams and proceeds to wipe the floor with them. It doesn't require any boost to its power other than Life Orb, it can go physical or special, and in general is just very restrictive. Maybe not banned this weekend, but it's safe to say this fish is not gonna be swimming NU's waters for long.

:Lucario:
As much as I love using this thing, it will not be staying in NU. The fact that Lucario can go physical or special, make use of every Choice item, and have plenty of auxiliary options such as SD, NP, mixed, Agility, etc. just makes it very tough to counter. This combined with excellent coverage on both sides makes Lucario a giant question mark in your opponents team that can effectively choose its own counters and if you get the set wrong, its possible you lose on the spot.

:Polteageist:
Hot take time! This thing is not really broken right now. That's not to say it wont eventually be banned, but honestly, the meta countermeasures to Indeedee really hurt this thing by association. Its coverage isn't great and as good as ghost stab is, its not infallible. Besides being utterly walled by Umbreon, P2, and Guzzlord, the teapot can find its opportunities to switch in and set up extremely limited in this faster meta. Even if it does get in, its physical bulk is pitiful and even a good number of fatter mons seriously dent it into priority range if not KOing it. At least for now, this is definitely a DNB through my eyes.

That's all I'll mention for now, as I prefer to actually play against mons before coming to any conclusions, as there are a number of mons that may be problematic now or in the future, but I haven't actually played against any. If you've read this entire post, thank you and I hope you have a good day!
 
Howdy, y'all. Just stopping by to leave my personal ban slate here with quick reasoning behind it.

:ss/Indeedee:

I don't think further discussion is necessary. Expanding Force is extremely restrictive to the point that a Dark-type or very fat Psychic is required on every team in order to not be 6 - 0ed immediately. Furthermore, Trick breaks past such bulky walls as Umbreon and Cresselia with little thought necessary, leaving only Trick Bronzong as a decent check in my eyes.

:ss/vulpix: :ss/ninetales:

Drought is absolutely restrictive by itself. And I absolutely disagree that banning either Heat Rock or Shiftry (arguably sun's best abuser) will stop its dominance. We have seen in the past how even pokemon such as Maractus can still provide busted breaking capabilities under sun, not even counting the fact that we now have big boy Charizard and Heliolisk around as well as amazing sun supporters in Rhyperior, Porygon2, Cresselia and Xatu to make the playstyle utterly dominant. Drought is the strongest it has ever been and easily banworthy.

:ss/Lucario:

Zero switch ins, versatility, amazing coverage, typing and stats: Lucario is one of the best breakers in the tier. I would definitely ban this thing.

:ss/Durant:

It is broken. At least 80% of the time. Having access to the strongest priority in the tier and amazing coverage which allow it to choose which checks to break past make it absolutely terrifying to face. Moreover, versatility in CB, LO 4 Atks and Hone Claws make the ant a busted pokemon. Although it is walled by the Catalisador-certified physically defensive Bewear ;).

:ss/Raichu-Alola:

The fuel that makes Electric Terrain broken. Nearly unresisted coverage and a busted STAB move in Rising Voltage plus Nasty Plot and Surge Surfer explains itself (lol).

:ss/polteageist:

Kind of the same issue as Indeedee: it forces teams to use bulky Darks (which we, uh, kinda only have one...) or, on this case, priority. Multiple priorities at times. Giga Drain, Stored Power and Shadow Ball after a Shell Smash is extremely restrictive.

:ss/Porygon-Z:

[insert any set] go brrrr.

Ok guys, now onto the DO NOT BAN hot takes.

:ss/Arctozolt:

Seems rather weaken than before. We now have many decent options to check this pokemon to the point that I do not even care about it that much? Between Gigalith stopping the hailstorm, Rhyperior being able to live one any hit, Scarf Fighting-types, defensive Bewear, etc. I feel like we are well equipped to handle this pokemon. At least so far.

:ss/Sharpedo:

Don't take my baby away from me! :(
 
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