Unpopular opinions

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Pokémon fans always overlook Chikorita's favorable matchups against the last 4 gyms and it drives me NUTS, I can't believe the amount of people on the sim that just cannot comprehend that picking Chikorita doesn't make your fucking cartridge explode.

Meganium's bulk is largely what allows it to perform well mid- and late-game. It beats Jasmine's Steelix (and her Magnemite despite the type resistance). Chuck's Primeape gets beaten by Meganium as well, and his Poliwrath is weak to Petal Dance. Meganium's bulk also allows it to take Ice-type attacks from Pryce's Dewgong and Piloswine and hits all three of his Pokémon for super effective damage with Petal Dance. Finally, Meganium beats Clair's Gyarados and can stall out Clair's Kingdra, even its powerful Hyper Beam, due to its good bulk. Not to mention Grass is an amazing type in Kanto, as usual.

And Meganium isn't just bulky, either. It has a perfectly decent 82/83 offensive stats that allows it to hit relatively hard with STAB Petal Dance and make good dents with other physical or special coverage moves.

The only reason Chikorita is considered to be the worst starter (not just in Johto, but across the entire series) is only because of the disregard for status moves in casual playthroughs and its unfavorable matchup against the first two gyms (even though Charmander has the same issue... but are we ready for that conversation?).

People actually dunk like that on GSC Chikorita tho.

Sure, it's way better than advertised, but GSC Chikorita is really not that good. I definitely understand why people would take a dump on HGSS Chikorita too, but at least that one ain't using Razor Leaf for STAB forever.

As for Charmander... I'm more than ready to have that discussion.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ame-tiers-reboot.3666304/page-10#post-8597607

Corollary: We get it, you hate Chikorita. It's not cool anymore, it's just all edge and no point. Shut up.

Uhhhhhh, that post defended Chikorita tho. What are you talking about? lmao.

It does take a long to get it's final evolution ( which is why i pick totodile) and, it doesn't fare well against the early gym.

Bayleef evolves at Lv. 32. Literally 2 levels after Croconaw.

The reason why people pick charmander is because it's iconic, and charizard is flying type and learns a lot of dragon moves,

Charizard, at least in RBY learned the grand total of the one Dragon move it had, and it was Dragon Rage. Via TM. lol no.

People diss Zard for the Flying type too. Remember the "Not a Dragon" jokes?

Honestly, I kinda see the appeal of a dragon-looking lizard, even though it has a dad bod that'd make Chairman Rose look like he got a 6-pack and noodle arms.

Charmander only has issues with Misty's Gym. Brock, while not a walk in the park, is no issue anyways as there are no Rock-type moves on his team. The remakes don't change much as, while Brock's Onix does have a Rock-type move, Charmander gets super-effective coverage by that point.

Charmander is outright the worst starter against Brock. Sure, he can't beat you because that horrid AI is going to make it a luck-based battle. Don't act like resisted Ember off Charmander is anything less than an 8HKO. Even Vine Whip-less Bulbasaur is going to do better because Leech Seed is a win condition in a war of attrition.

FRLG Charmander vs Brock is straight-up embarrassing too. Pull up with Metal Claw thinking you're gonna do a ton of damage against Onix's ridic Base Defense. Reality will come crashing down like a Rock Tomb when that lizard goes splat. There's a reason they kept Mankey and Double Kick Nidoran before Brock.

 

[Bloomer28]

Charmander only has issues with Misty's Gym. Brock, while not a walk in the park, is no issue anyways as there are no Rock-type moves on his team. The remakes don't change much as, while Brock's Onix does have a Rock-type move, Charmander gets super-effective coverage by that point.

And while I agree that Chikorita's line gets too much dislike, it's still unquestionable that it gets the worst early gym matchups among all starters. Falkner and Bugsy have super-effective STABs (and two thirds of Bugsy's team has a Grass resistance), and Morty's entire team resists Grass.

Yeah, the early fights are the ones that really decide your starter, and thats why i never pick the dumb lizard cause he actually sucks. #SQUIRTLEGANG

People actually dunk like that on GSC Chikorita tho.

Sure, it's way better than advertised, but GSC Chikorita is really not that good. I definitely understand why people would take a dump on HGSS Chikorita too, but at least that one ain't using Razor Leaf for STAB forever.

As for Charmander... I'm more than ready to have that discussion.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ame-tiers-reboot.3666304/page-10#post-8597607



Uhhhhhh, that post defended Chikorita tho. What are you talking about? lmao.



Bayleef evolves at Lv. 32. Literally 2 levels after Croconaw.



Charizard, at least in RBY learned the grand total of the one Dragon move it had, and it was Dragon Rage. Via TM. lol no.

People diss Zard for the Flying type too. Remember the "Not a Dragon" jokes?

Honestly, I kinda see the appeal of a dragon-looking lizard, even though it has a dad bod that'd make Chairman Rose look like he got a 6-pack and noodle arms.



Charmander is outright the worst starter against Brock. Sure, he can't beat you because that horrid AI is going to make it a luck-based battle. Don't act like resisted Ember off Charmander is anything less than an 8HKO. Even Vine Whip-less Bulbasaur is going to do better because Leech Seed is a win condition in a war of attrition.

FRLG Charmander vs Brock is straight-up embarrassing too. Pull up with Metal Claw thinking you're gonna do a ton of damage against Onix's ridic Base Defense. Reality will come crashing down like a Rock Tomb when that lizard goes splat. There's a reason they kept Mankey and Double Kick Nidoran before Brock.

Thought it was 36, but I always mis remember stuff, and maybe I'm thinking about zard's new moveset, but zard does get some pretty good dragon moves in lets go and maybe FRLG ( can't be bothered to read the moveset ) and yes, people really like dunking on chikorita, but there is a reason, because it just really is outshined by the other guys.

 

[Bakugames]

Did you say someone picking chikorita is edgy? Aint that one of most soft feminine starters lol

Chikorita is fine, not super good, just fine, you just need to use them as a team member/defensive tank, while most starters in game are offensive and able to solo.
If you want to use the defense capabilities, shes a decent choice, just not going to be the main team player, which is what people want from starters

 

[jordanthejq12]

People actually dunk like that on GSC Chikorita tho.
Uhhhhhh, that post defended Chikorita tho. What are you talking about? lmao.

Did you say someone picking chikorita is edgy? Aint that one of most soft feminine starters lol

No, I am asking the fandom to knock it off with the "Chikorita is the worst starter evar!!!!!oneeleven" bullcrap.

Hell, I'd go so far as to assert that the Chikorita hate is in part because it's so feminine-looking.

 

[Bakugames]

The forums ate half of this post so: charmander sucks ass vs brock and if you dont get a mankey in a nuzlocke youre just either ovelevelling or dead.

There's a reason they kept Mankey and Double Kick Nidoran before Brock.

They didnt keep nidoran actually, its only catchable on route 3

No, I am asking the fandom to knock it off with the "Chikorita is the worst starter evar!!!!!oneeleven" bullcrap.

Oh i was talking to bloomer lol, didnt expect you to reply when i posted

 

[Bloomer28]

Did you say someone picking chikorita is edgy? Aint that one of most soft feminine starters lol

Chikorita is fine, not super good, just fine, you just need to use them as a team member/defensive tank, while most starters in game are offensive and able to solo.
If you want to use the defense capabilities, shes a decent choice, just not going to be the main team player, which is what people want from starters

I was saying edgy in " Oh, I'm sooo quirky, I chose chickorita, " and yeah, there is a geat replacment to it in tangrowth in HGSS because it fills basically the same rle, and I think theres some other good stuff in the original things, so it's pretty uneeded.

 

[Bloomer28]

No, I am asking the fandom to knock it off with the "Chikorita is the worst starter evar!!!!!oneeleven" bullcrap.

Hell, I'd go so far as to assert that the Chikorita hate is in part because it's so feminine-looking.

people screech alot when this happen sbecause there's people who wnat to be so "off" and "quirky" and then us monkeys screech at eachother because we're all really dumb and can't agree to let anything go. Maybe the people who don't like ita re being like uhh the racisim for genders idk forgot the word

edit: It;s dumb how we're yelling like rabid animals about how one plant thing is better than this lizard thing or this whatever a jig. maybe starter conversations should go like. 'Hey, infernape is the best since it can outpseed almost everythign and can kill teh gyms easy " instead of " LIZARD GOOD YOUR PICK BAD BECAUSE YOURMST EDGE "

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I was saying edgy in " Oh, I'm sooo quirky, I chose chickorita, " and yeah, there is a geat replacment to it in tangrowth in HGSS because it fills basically the same rle, and I think theres some other good stuff in the original things, so it's pretty uneeded.

people screech alot when this happen sbecause there's people who wnat to be so "off" and "quirky" and then us monkeys screech at eachother because we're all really dumb and can't agree to let anything go. Maybe the people who don't like ita re being like uhh the racisim for genders idk forgot the word

edit: It;s dumb how we're yelling like rabid animals about how one plant thing is better than this lizard thing or this whatever a jig. maybe starter conversations should go like. 'Hey, infernape is the best since it can outpseed almost everythign and can kill teh gyms easy " instead of " LIZARD GOOD YOUR PICK BAD BECAUSE YOURMST EDGE "

You can reply to more than one post at a time, cousin. There's no need to keep double posting.

 

[Bakugames]

I was saying edgy in " Oh, I'm sooo quirky, I chose chickorita, " and yeah, there is a geat replacment to it in tangrowth in HGSS because it fills basically the same rle, and I think theres some other good stuff in the original things.

The original doesnt have any good grass types as most of them are stone only in which the way to get stones in these games is stupid. Tangrowth is a fine choice but tangela is super spdef frail and super slow which means it dies to almost any special attacker, while bayleef is tankier on that while still having decent physical bulk. Tangrowth still is awful spdef wise and slow so its only useful vs physical attackers, while meganium can handle them decently and is faster.

They both have a similar niche but in game i think bayleef is better as an overall defensive tank while tangrowth is better as a physical attacker and physical tank. Either is fine, theyre both usable

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

No, I am asking the fandom to knock it off with the "Chikorita is the worst starter evar!!!!!oneeleven" bullcrap.

Hell, I'd go so far as to assert that the Chikorita hate is in part because it's so feminine-looking.

Chikorita is fine, not super good, just fine, you just need to use them as a team member/defensive tank, while most starters in game are offensive and able to solo.
If you want to use the defense capabilities, shes a decent choice, just not going to be the main team player, which is what people want from starters

That's the real reason Chikorita gets dunked on.

It's actually very good against some of the trickiest matchups in GSC, namely Whitney and Clair, but here's the thing. It's a support mon. A team player. You're not clicking Razor Leaf and watching things drop like flies on turn 1, you're clicking Reflect and setting up for a long battle most of the time.

In-Game, people value raw offensive power. This is why Totodile is the best Johto starter in-game.

GSC Chikorita gets its rep because it never gets a strong, drawback-free STAB and everything resists Grass in Johto with Poison-types everywhere.

 

[Siggu]

It's... kind of the same problem Snivy has in BW, although it gets some breathing room due to resists not being so stacked through the game, and once it gets Coil, it can actually solo many more opponents than one would think in the second half of the game.

It's not that it can't work, but a one-click win is more popular.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

The original doesnt have any good grass types as most of them are stone only in which the way to get stones in these games is stupid. Tangrowth is a fine choice but tangela is super spdef frail and super slow which means it dies to almost any special attacker, while bayleef is tankier on that while still having decent physical bulk. Tangrowth still is awful spdef wise and slow so its only useful vs physical attackers, while meganium can handle them decently and is faster.

They both have a similar niche but in game i think bayleef is better as an overall defensive tank while tangrowth is better as a physical attacker and physical tank. Either is fine, theyre both usable

Tangela is way too late. Bellsprout gets no moves. Oddish comes in severely underleveled in Ilex Forest and bumps on the same issue of not having good STAB or coverage in a region that resists most of its offensive moves.

Chikorita is by far the best Johto Grass-type and it's really not even close.

 

[Bloomer28]

Tangela is way too late. Bellsprout gets no moves. Oddish comes in severely underleveled in Ilex Forest and bumps on the same issue of not having good STAB or coverage in a region that resists most of its offensive moves.

Chikorita is by far the best Johto Grass-type and it's really not even close.

Ok, do maybe Meganium is the best grass type, because there really isn't much more. Thought we had like a roserade in there, so I get why people pick Meganium, because of the good bulk amd the lack of other grass types. But there still is the matchups agaisnt the first 3 gyms, making your starter kinda not as good, because it could only take like one ice beam and then die because of it's horrible spdef, so it's kind of the best of the worst.

Click Me

What does this mean? I think pointing out that Chikorita isn't as bad as it is commonly depicted falls under "Unpopular Opinions". Plus, my post clearly generated a lot of discussion anyways.




This is simply not true. Bayleef evolves at level 32; you're thinking of Typhlosion.




You have it backwards, because my post was about Chikorita in HGSS, and it can't even learn Petal Dance (its best move) in GSC.

A lot of Chikorita hate is due to its design though. It's not "cool" like the other starters and it doesn't have the raw power that Primarina has that makes people overlook its design. I believe the same thing also applies to Pokémon like Gardevoir ( especially in comparison to Alakazam).

Ok, this was really brash. I'm just being really defensive, and in turn being really annoying ad stuff. Maybe I am a manchild useless failure of a human being. Sorry, I'm just being dumb.

Edit: Wait, you never specified the game, so, sorry.

 

[Bakugames]

But there still is the matchups agaisnt the first 3 gyms, making your starter kinda not as good, because it could only take like one ice beam and then die because of it's horrible spdef, so it's kind of the best of the worst

Meganiums spdef is what it exels on vs the other two starters, what do you mean? Feraligator also has good defense but worse spdef, and typhlosion is just frailer in general.

Grass isnt the best defensive type in game, but meganium can still tank stuff, combined with screens and leech seed support it gets, it can live stuff way better than the other starters

Also while i prefer bayleef to meganium, meganium is the best gen 2 starter design wise, by a long shot. Unrelated but its an unpopular opinion so

 

[Bloomer28]

Meganiums spdef is what it exels on vs the other two starters, what do you mean? Feraligator also has good defense but worse spdef, and typhlosion is just frailer in general.

Grass isnt the best defensive type in game, but meganium can still tank stuff, combined with screens and leech seed support it gets, it can live stuff way better than the other starters

I was saying tangrowth, sorry, being dymb again. Got both of them mixed up, and had a stupid moment.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I feel like I might've brought this up somewhere in this subforum already but I'll take my chances

Can someone please explain to where all these rabid hordes of genwunners are? I've been in the core Pokefandom in some form for what, 4-5 years? Been playing the series and watching videos about it for much longer than that? And throughout that time I have literally maybe seen an amount of genwunners/unironic genwunner posts countable on two hands, with every instance of this resulting in OP being clowned on. And yet to this day people talk about them like they're utterly ubiquitous and have infested the online Pokemon space. It's by far the most bizarre, misaligned-with-reality bogeyman I have ever seen in any fanbase and I want to know just what exactly these people who propagate it are seeing that I'm not to keep hyping it up after all this time.

 

[Bloomer28]

It's a stereotype, so it's pretty hard to actually find it since it's so exaggerated.

 

[mertyville]

I have been wondering after the Dynamax Adventure mechanic being introduced and people complaining about it what could make legendary hunting actually fun?

Since Natures are introduced and people discovering about IVs, then having to catch the same legendary in a newer game because your old one isn't legal in the current format, legendary hunting has been feeling more like a waste of time than something earned.

This makes dissatisfying whether you have 100% catchrate or 3% catchrate, because you softreset because you want it in a dive ball or something but on the other hand it devalues the effort you went through to obtain it. You can't guarantie how many times you have to throw the ball, unless you use a Master Ball, that said Pokemon stays in the ball.

What I am saying is, I have no fun catching legendaries.

 

[Tenshi]

Tangela is way too late. Bellsprout gets no moves. Oddish comes in severely underleveled in Ilex Forest and bumps on the same issue of not having good STAB or coverage in a region that resists most of its offensive moves.

Chikorita is by far the best Johto Grass-type and it's really not even close.

This is incorrect for Crystal because leaf stone is available via Picknicker Gina in the route below Goldenrod City, weepinbell and gloom(which victreebell and vileplume are both better in spite of their worse movesets though they both get sleep powder and stun spore) both get access to Sludge Bomb which in general is a better STAB than grass(which isn't even worth saving a gloom for like level 44 for petal dance when it's just not that useful as a type in gen 2)

That being said Chikorita's biggest problem is over reliance on reflect + razor leaf until fairly late into johto it gets body slam which it uses throughout the rest of the game unless you use the EQ tm on it. If Chikorita got access to sleep powder and/or stun spore(also leech seed without breeding would be nice thanks pls) it would've been a much stronger mon but as is it's just okay

This is coming from someone who always uses chiko and is a meganium stan btw so no bias (snivy is infinitely worse btw, even with Coil it has absolutely garbage matchups in Unova and doesn't even ohko things with leaf blade after 2 coils)

 

[Bakugames]

Can someone please explain to where all these rabid hordes of genwunners are? I've been in the core Pokefandom in some form for what, 4-5 years? Been playing the series and watching videos about it for much longer than that? And throughout that time I have literally maybe seen an amount of genwunners/unironic genwunner posts countable on two hands, with every instance of this resulting in OP being clowned on. And yet to this day people talk about them like they're utterly ubiquitous and have infested the online Pokemon space. It's by far the most bizarre, misaligned-with-reality bogeyman I have ever seen in any fanbase and I want to know just what exactly these people who propagate it are seeing that I'm not to keep hyping it up after all this time.

outside pokemon forums/discussions, mainly. Genwunners do exist, but most of them dont interact with pokemon anymore because theyre... well... genwunners. They think the series sucks nowadays so they just dont play and dont talk about it anymore.

the hate gen 5 got wasnt exactly from genwunners, it was just from a hate of change. whenether your opinion of gen 5 is good or bad, one has to admit that most people who were talking constantly about gen 5 being the bottom of pokemon were mainly exaggerating and just didnt like the changes. which is honestly a fandom issue, rather than a genwunner issue

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I feel like I might've brought this up somewhere in this subforum already but I'll take my chances

Can someone please explain to where all these rabid hordes of genwunners are? I've been in the core Pokefandom in some form for what, 4-5 years? Been playing the series and watching videos about it for much longer than that? And throughout that time I have literally maybe seen an amount of genwunners/unironic genwunner posts countable on two hands, with every instance of this resulting in OP being clowned on. And yet to this day people talk about them like they're utterly ubiquitous and have infested the online Pokemon space. It's by far the most bizarre, misaligned-with-reality bogeyman I have ever seen in any fanbase and I want to know just what exactly these people who propagate it are seeing that I'm not to keep hyping it up after all this time.

They went into hiding after getting blown up sky-high when BW1 turned out good.

Seriously, they're nothing but a meme nowadays, the real genwunners jumped ship a looooong time ago.

This is incorrect for Crystal because leaf stone is available via Picknicker Gina in the route below Goldenrod City,

Never talked anything about stone evos, Leaf Stone is actually the earliest one in Crystal. I think someone else mentioned them tho.

weepinbel and gloom both get access to Sludge Bomb which in general is a better STAB than grass(which isn't even worth saving a gloom for like level 44 for petal dance when it's just not that useful as a type in gen 2)

Sludge Bomb is late, Poison STAB is actually worse than Grass because Tentacool resists it and that means the western segment is a nightmare, and to make things worse, look at all of their movepools until Sludge Bomb.

There's just a ton of powders and very few actual damage options. For all its flaws, Chikorita does get the best Grass STAB in GSC early. Reflect is also a very good move. Body Slam by level-up is also a pretty sweet move. And assuming you're not giving it to something better, it does have EQ as an option, which the likes of Vileplume doesn't, though it doesn't really move the needle because of how late it is.

Chikorita is not the best Grass mon in Johto because it's outstanding, but because the competition is abysmal.

 

[Bloomer28]

They went into hiding after getting blown up sky-high when BW1 turned out good.

Seriously, they're nothing but a meme nowadays, the real genwunners jumped ship a looooong time ago.



Never talked anything about stone evos, Leaf Stone is actually the earliest one in Crystal. I think someone else mentioned them tho.



Sludge Bomb is late, Poison STAB is actually worse than Grass because Tentacool resists it and that means the western segment is a nightmare, and to make things worse, look at all of their movepools until Sludge Bomb.

There's just a ton of powders and very few actual damage options. For all its flaws, Chikorita does get the best Grass STAB in GSC early. Reflect is also a very good move. Body Slam by level-up is also a pretty sweet move. And assuming you're not giving it to something better, it does have EQ as an option, which the likes of Vileplume doesn't, though it doesn't really move the needle because of how late it is.

Chikorita is not the best Grass mon in Johto because it's outstanding, but because the competition is abysmal.

So this settles it, Chickorita is the best grass type becuase the competition is horrible, and still it's not worth picking up for another starter, since grass isn't really vital and has a disadavatage for the first 3 gyms, making it un-optimal compared to the other starters. Also, it can really dish out damage like a venusaur, making only good for tanking hits. Case closed.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

So this settles it, Chickorita is the best grass type becuase the competition is horrible, and still it's not worth picking up for another starter. Case closed.

I'd unironically pick Chikorita over Cyndaquil any day.

Ember until Lv. 31, then Flame Wheel!? Miss me with that.

 

[Bloomer28]

I'd unironically pick Chikorita over Cyndaquil any day.

Ember until Lv. 31, then Flame Wheel!? Miss me with that.

Then pick totodile.

Edit: My man Rocco got good moves fairly early on, gets his final evo at 30, and has good, well balanced stats.

 

[Siggu]

So this settles it, Chickorita is the best grass type becuase the competition is horrible, and still it's not worth picking up for another starter. Case closed.

It's cute in all three stages, though. Not better than the Totodile line (which is also cute in all stages, but performs better in battle), but it is over Cyndaquil's.

Although, if the chance existed in, say, a hypothetical Let's GO for Johto, I'd use both Chikorita AND Totodile, but not Cyndaquil.