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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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Anything that lessens the impact of Stealth Rocks is welcomed in any environment. Actually I'm surprised more people don't set up SR in UU considering how much of UU get torn apart by them outside of the much needed fighters. Even the earlier debated Pinsir will never enjoy taking 25% a switch when CB/CS rely so heavily on smart switches/prediction.

EDIT:
Just noticed the link to the UU/BL thread. But Torterra/Steelix/Drapion were omitted from the suggestions? I thought there was enough opinion they were needed in UU to balance some things out abit.
 
On another topic, I really still think that Regigigas needs testing in UU. That weak recommendation is being way too optimistic for the guy.

I personally just don't see what's too gamebreaking about it being in UU. UU is so much more offense-oriented than OU, and Regigigas isn't going to hurt much with 80 base special attack, especially when it can't raise that in any way. Yeah 110/110/110 defenses are good, but when it's gonna get eaten for lunch, then who cares? It can't recover in ANY way besides Wish support, and all it does is sit there and do Parafusion, and maybe the occasional Knock Off. There's counters for these things though.

Let's see, there's Muk with Sticky Hold, not getting his item Knocked Off, slow enough to not care about Paralysis, and great defenses to not care much about confusion. I'm pretty sure that Regigigas won't be able to break Muk's sub with his crappy special attacks (Thunderbolt/Focus Blast/Hidden Power is whole special movepool).
Focus Punch from Muk to Regigigas --> Annihilated

There's also Limber Hitmonlee who can come in and I'm pretty sure can OHKO with STAB Close Combat while all Regigigas can do is MAYBE try a Zen Headbutt from his crappy attack (wasting a slot), or it can use its baby pool of special moves to hit Hitmonlee's base 110 special defense. No Thunder Wave for Hitmonlee. :]
Close Combat to Regigigas --> Annihilated

Regigigas also gets busted up by Rotom, since it'll inevitably get something bad Tricked onto it, get statused, and really not be able to do much back.

Really, I could go on with even more counters, but in general, strong Fighting attacks spell the end of Regigigas's life since he has no way to recover any HP besides the incredibly weak Drain Punch, and it has no reliable way to stall out the 5 turns without being a bloody mess if it miraculously does, since UU is a lot more offense oriented.

Seriously, this guy might be a good UU, but really, it's going to have a lot of trouble making the team even in UU since it's too much of a hassle to use. It may have a good physical movepool, but that goes off of his crappy attack which he has to attempt to stall 5 turns with. Special and Support movepools are just downright awful. Let's look at its movepool actually:

Physical Movepool

Fire Punch
Ice Punch
Thunderpunch
Superpower
Zen Headbutt
Return
Focus Punch
Brick Break
Stone Edge
Drain Punch
Avalanche
Knock Off

Ok, not bad. Still has to go off Slow Start attack barring a miracle. Knock Off is the only practical move here, maybe Return just for STAB, but it would require a hell of a lot of attack EVs to do any kind of damage though before Slow Start finishes.

Special Movepool

Hidden Power
Hyper Beam
Thunderbolt
Thunder
Focus Blast

Wow. The fact that I had to include Hyper Beam and Hidden Power just to make a possible list is just downright awful.

Support Movepool (only viable stuff)

Confuse Ray
Toxic
Rock Polish (maybe)
Psych Up
Swagger
Substitute
Endure

Yeah, that may look bad already, but it's even worse when you consider that Toxic is learned by everything and Regigigas is rubbish at using it. Rock Polish MIGHT be useful if it can magically get those 5 turns off. Psych Up is kinda useful, Sub and Endure are learned by pretty much everything, and same goes for Swagger. In other words, terrible.


Yeah, so really, does Regigigas deserve BL status?

Seriously, in my opinion, it's an OK UU at most, but sure as hell not BL, since it can be countered incredibly easily, and will get trampled without much difficulty even with great defenses by the offensive metagame of UU. I think it at least deserves to be moved down to UU for testing. But what do you think?
 
Just noticed the link to the UU/BL thread. But Torterra/Steelix/Drapion were omitted from the suggestions? I thought there was enough opinion they were needed in UU to balance some things out abit.

Perhaps if we all make a conscious effort to do a bit more testing with these, we could then resubmit them for consideration with actual battle evidence to support our suggestions?

*Edit*

The official tier list has been updated!!!!
... thank you site admin, I can now (semi)officially bitch at people for using Typholsion.

I've just visited UU Stadium and looked at their "tentative" UU tier list ... here's a summary of some of the more interesting discrepencies

Not listed as UU: Absol, Armaldo, Claydol, Dodrio, Froslass, Glaceon, Lanturn, Lapras, Ninetales, Probopass, Scyther, Toxicroak

Listed as UU: Phione, Pinsir, Poliwrath, Tentacruel

The NFE's they allow: Clamperl, Male Combee, Eevee, Pikachu, Surskit, Trapinch, Vigoroth.

Any (hopefully constructive) comments?
 
Perhaps if we all make a conscious effort to do a bit more testing with these, we could then resubmit them for consideration with actual battle evidence to support our suggestions?
I can now (semi)officially bitch at people for using <insertPokemon>.
I think there might be some problems when dealing with randoms there...
 
@ Oddish: I was looking off the UU Stadium tier list when I asked you on my RMT if Ninetales was still UU. Very interesting observation. =/

EDIT: Swellow is also missing.
 
So Torterra, Steelix, and Drapion are being considered for a move down? I wouldn't touch any of them.

Torterra has a pretty good offensive movepool with a Stone Edge/Wood Hammer/EQ set. It can use Rock Polish. Quakeslide is a nearly irrestible combination, and many of the UU physical walls are weak to Grass. HP Ice Meganium does well, but I personally can;t think of many other counters, would probably be too hard to stop overall.

Steelix would be the best physical wall in UU hands down due to statistics alone, steel typing doesn't hurt either.. He would be the physical Blissey of UU, and would probably shift the whole metagame towards the special side.

Drapion's stats are just too good IMO. He has the defenses to run wallish sets, but would probably be used as a Swords Dance or Agility sweeper. And with his ability one crit could kill a whole team.It's like Absol with defenses.
 
Steelix would be the best physical wall in UU hands down due to statistics alone, steel typing doesn't hurt either.. He would be the physical Blissey of UU, and would probably shift the whole metagame towards the special side.

Unless I've completely messed up the calculations a Jolly Life Orb Hitmonlee can 2hko it with Close Combat, which would suggest a number of the other fighting types would also stand a chance.

As for Torterra ... well it depends entirely on the set. I faced one the other day that lacked a rock attack, and it was completely walled by my Altaria. I think it would be completely reliant upon Rock Polish to be a serious threat, without it its just too slow despite its defences.
 
I think it would be completely reliant upon Rock Polish to be a serious threat, without it its just too slow despite its defences.

No no no, that Sub set I posted on the last page is the way to go! I still can't think of a counter to it -

Torterra is one of those Pokemon who could smash UU up pretty bad if the user had excellent prediction and was able to pick the right move for the incoming Pokemon. To that end, I think:

Torterra @ Leftovers/Life Orb

- Substitute
- Wood Hammer/Seed Bomb
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

If Torterra was to force a switch with his excellent defences and typing and Substitite on the switch, there isn't really any UU Pokemon who are gonna enjoy taking an appropriate move from 348 Atk. Sub can also help him to activate Overgrow.


If a Pokemon can run a set like that, which can easily OHKO/2HKO the entire metagame with minimal prediction, then you have to accept that it's not really UU material.

Steelix is interesting too, but in a metagame dominated by powerful Fighting types and Earthquake users, there's only a small number of Pokemon he could actually wall.
 
No no no, that Sub set I posted on the last page is the way to go! I still can't think of a counter to it -

As -Cynthia suggested Meganium would be the best place to start, Leafeon has the defences to take a hit or two, a Sunny Day might work ...

Whilst not necessarily a counter Encore, Trick, Switcheroo, Icicle Spear and Ice Shard can all mess that strategy up to an extent ...

If a Pokemon can run a set like that, which can easily OHKO/2HKO the entire metagame with minimal prediction, then you have to accept that it's not really UU material.

Before Claydol became UU, one could have made a similar argument about Hitmonlee ...

Plus its still got to get the sub up ... I'm not saying that it wouldn't be powerful, but I think it should be tested before its dismissed completely.
 
And with his ability one crit could kill a whole team.It's like Absol with defenses.
Drapion's ability hardly ever activates. I use one and I know Sniper is vastly overrated since with Scope Lens and a high crit move you're still only looking at around lv2 crit which is extremely low. Drapion is weak enough that even a Sniper hit can sometimes come short of OHKO on bulkier pokemon. Its coverage moves are extremely weak too running off a meh attack.

So no its nothing like Absol.

Steelix would be the best physical wall in UU hands down due to statistics alone, steel typing doesn't hurt either.. He would be the physical Blissey of UU, and would probably shift the whole metagame towards the special side.
Thats actually a good thing. If you haven't noticed yet all the strongest sweepers in UU are physical Fighting/Ground users. Steelix isn't stopping them any time soon but he will be at least be slowing sweeps since it takes 2-3 hits to KO him.

UU is actually full of extremely powerful special defense orientated sweepers and special sponges/walls which actually makes physical offense far preferable.
 
Before Claydol became UU, one could have made a similar argument about Hitmonlee ...

I did! :heart:

Fair point about the Bulky Grasses though, as they can also counter the Sub-Seed variants (which are also a big threat). And that reminds me...with no sand in UU, Synthesis is a very viable option on Torterra granting him a 50% recovery move coupled with those awesome defences and EQ resist.

Seriously...is there any justification for him to be UU other than "lol 4x Ice weak?" Excellent stats, excellent offensive and defensive typing (Ground, Rock resist and Electric immune -_-) , varied movepool, useful ability and enough support options to embrass Gardevoir. Synthesis, Light Screen, Reflect, Safeguard, Leech Seed, Stealth Rock, Amnesia, Growth, Rock Polish, Roar, Curse?!
 
When you put it like that...
I had a post a bit ago about possible walls for him though none can stop him all the time. And if you were to run a defensive set with Synthesis, he'd be really fucking tough to kill.
 
Fair point about the Bulky Grasses though, as they can also counter the Sub-Seed variants (which are also a big threat). And that reminds me...with no sand in UU, Synthesis is a very viable option on Torterra granting him a 50% recovery move coupled with those awesome defences and EQ resist.

Rain Dance is a viable, and increasingly common strategy in UU, which would hamper Synthesis, and whilst Sand Stream is not commonly used, it does not mean that it isn't ... besides if you start adding synthesis you either have to give up your sub, or one of your attacks.

Seriously...is there any justification for him to be UU other than "lol 4x Ice weak?"

Erm the fact that he is genuinely under used, in the sense that no one is using him?

Excellent stats,
bar the base 56 speed.


excellent offensive and defensive typing (Ground, Rock resist and Electric immune -_-) ,
ignoring the weakness to ice he has to be wary of fire , flying and bug attacks, all of which are farily common at present. His excellent offensive typing is also dependent upon him carrying a grass, ground and rock move, otherwise the number of pokemon that could wall him increases significantly.

varied movepool
,but unfortunately only four moveslots to utilise

useful ability
hmm ...debatable

Synthesis, Light Screen, Reflect, Safeguard, Leech Seed, Stealth Rock, Amnesia, Growth, Rock Polish, Roar, Curse?
again which takes away type coverage.
 
Erm the fact that he is genuinely under used, in the sense that no one is using him?


And you are well aware that that has no effect at all on whether a Pokemon is UU or not. If Garchomp was never used again, he still wouldn't become UU.

ignoring the weakness to ice he has to be wary of fire (Ninetales), flying (Dodrio and Swellow) and bug (Pinsir) attacks.


I wouldn't class any of those Pokemon as counters. Ninetales dies from EQ even if he has a Shuca Berry and Swellow manages to take 65% from Wood Hammer so imagine what Stone Edge will do. 0/0 Pinsir takes 79-93% from a Stone Edge, whereas his max attack X-Scissor can't OHKO 0/0 Torterra without Life Orb. But Torterra will never be 0/0 unless he is using the Rock Polish set in which case he'll most likely Rock Polish the switch and OHKO with Orb'd Stone Edge.

but unfortunately only four moveslots to utilise

Huh, I didn't realise Torterra only had 4 moveslots. Maybe he should be UU after all...

Salamence only has 4 moveslots, but it doesn't change the fact that he could be running any number of sets and you won't know until it's too late. Torterra's the same. Choice Bander? Sub-Seeder? Rock Polish? Curser? Swords Dancer (which I managed to miss from my earlier post)? Support? Sleep Talker? Scarfer (348 speed aint awful)?

And it's generally accepted that a free 1.5x boost to your most powerful attacks is pretty darn useful! Throw in Seed Bomb and Leichi on a Rock Polish set and you've got a monstrously powerful attack.

Anyway, theorymon fails blah blah blah, testing is the most reliable way blah blah blah. I just can't see any reason to even bother testing.
 
Ok this will be my last post on this issue, because I'm really not appreciating the tone thats creeping into your posts ...

And you are well aware that that has no effect at all on whether a Pokemon is UU or not.

I am, but I'm also aware that pokemon have mistakenly been classified, all I was suggesting that we test him.

I wouldn't class any of those Pokemon as counters.

I didn't ... if you notice I removed the pokemon names before you posted. And in any case, they were not listed as counters, but rather threatening pokemon currently making use of those particular attack types.


Anyway, theorymon fails blah blah blah, testing is the most reliable way blah blah blah.

I made no such claims, I was simply stating my case why I thought it should be tested ...
 
Claydol's UU? It might end up being th best spinner/mixed wall in the UIU game currently, can also run a CM set to lay down pretty serious hurt. Lack of recovery does hurt it though.

I still think the only way Torterra can be stopped is with bulky grasses carrying HP Ice, creating a forced slot on many teams that was not previously required. Testing might help more than theroies though..

Steeliz might not be too imbalanced, but I don't want another Blisseyesque pokemon messing up the UU metagame. And ersonally I;ve found that there's a balnce between physical and special in UU but that's just me.

Frankly I'm rather unfamiliar with Drapion but it seems very fast for UU, It can Swords Dance to fix its mediocre attack, and only has one weakness with decent defenses. It also can gain a fair amount of coverage with elemental fangs/EQ. Defensively minded pokes with EQ(Quagsire) can stop it, although there are far less of these in UU than it OU. Maybe I'll try some of these pokes on a UU team to see how they play out.
 
Claydol is very good, but 6 weaknesses and no recovery is what makes it fair in UU. Barring rest, it can't heal itself. Throw in 'Spin and your left with two moves... Claydol can do a lot, but not all simultaneously.
 
IMO, it was the fact that Claydol has lower physical defenses than Torkoal and weakness to Ghost that pushes me towards UU. As a spinner, he is going to be facing ghost switch-ins on his rapid spin, and then run away crying with STAB Shadow Ball or Shadow Claw.
 
Keep in mind the ghosts that are left in UU. There's only four:
Drifblim, Rotom, Sableye, and Banette.

Rotom will always carry Shadow Ball.
Banette will always carry Shadow Claw or Sneak.
Drifblim has a good chance at carrying SB, though many prefer a sub/bp/cm/etc. set with few attacking moves.
Sableye usually does not fill an attacking role.


A Claydol carrying his own Shadow Ball can 2HKO every one of them (unless Drifblim or Sableye are running massive SpDef EVs). I'd say he's the perfect Rapid Spinner, even moreso than the claims when he was in OU where he had to try and take out Dusknoir and Spiritomb to get a chance at spinning.
 
According to the current tier lists, Froslass is still UU too. She can be 2HKO'd as well without any HP/Sp.Def investment, but trying to do so is dangerous for Claydol for several reasons.

Also, I cannot see Drifblim and Sableye being 2HKO'd by your average defensive Claydol even without Sp. Def investment and the fact that Claydol often carries a stronger attack against both of them.

Claydol would definitely be the best Rapid spinner in UU but not a perfect one by any means, and I don't see anything unbalancing about it. That said, it would still be one of the first Pokemon I'd consider when making an UU team.
 
I was just going to amend my post to include Frosslass who can take one Shadow Ball and threaten STAB Ice Beam back until I remembered Frosslass usage putting her damn near OU. I don't use her in UU because of her usage, if she ends up being used less in January I'll reconsider though.

Claydol's sp.atk is really saddening the more I look at it, Drifblim does need some Sp.Def EVs to not be 2HKO'd. Sableye would probably not be 2HKO'd because they're almost always running max HP and some def/spdef but then again would probably not enjoy STAB Earth Powers.

It is definitely the best Spinner in UU, for whatever that's worth. It's also a neglected Trick Roomer and Calm Minder. Earth Power and Ice Beam provide amazing coverage with only two attacks. Hmm. =P
 
Who uses Shadowball on Claydol? Seriously when your special movepool selection also consists of STAB Earth Power, Ice Beam, STAB Psychic, ever useful Grass Knot and even Charge Beam if you're into that sort of thing. I think Shadowball would be the last thing thing on your list.

I just don't see Claydol Ice Beams being too much a threat towards Drifblim either. I use a physical Drifblim and even then it can still hold its own since Claydol killing isn't its job to begin with and anything short of a OHKO isn't sufficient enough to be a threat. Wheras the average Drifblim are status abuser/CM'ers who shrug the slow and unoffensive Claydol off.

Go offensive then just off the top of my head doesn't both Sharpedo and Crawdaunt absolutely maul Claydol on sight? Even the already mentioned Absol, ever present Swift Swimmers all love Claydol.
 
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