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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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Oh, than I should reword that; in BL, it will be used in BL, where it cannot cope with the aforementioned problems of Cloyster, Sandstorm, etc, etc. Therefore, making it a *somewhat* useless choice on a BL team, since in BL, Ursaring is a much better Guts user which doesn't lose 25% of its health because of Stealth Rocks. Gorebyss is to Huntail as Ursaring is to Swellow. In other words, Ursaring > Swellow. In BL, it won't see any action, so the issue of moving it back down will arise again.

Yes, I read Dragonmaster's post. But what's the point of moving something somewhere where it cannot be effectivly used?
 
Banning it from a metagame it would break. Not all Pokemon are balanced. You hardly ever see Mew on an Ubers team right? It's too good for OU is why it's banned. Unbanning it because it never sees any use is stupid.
 
Acredula said:
Oh, than I should reword that; in BL, it will be used in BL, where it cannot cope with the aforementioned problems of Cloyster, Sandstorm, etc, etc. Therefore, making it a *somewhat* useless choice on a BL team, since in BL, Ursaring is a much better Guts user which doesn't lose 25% of its health because of Stealth Rocks. Gorebyss is to Huntail as Ursaring is to Swellow. In other words, Ursaring > Swellow. In BL, it won't see any action, so the issue of moving it back down will arise again.
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BL isn't meant to be a balanced tier. It's really only there to split up OU into frequently-used and less-used pokemon.

Err, restating that more clearly, there's technically no such thing as "BL play". People do play it sometimes but it's not a real metagame like OU or UU because the BL tier isn't balanced at all.

Yes, I read Dragonmaster's post. But what's the point of moving something somewhere where it cannot be effectivly used?
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To balance out the tiers. Like it or not, this is the way the tier system has been set up, and this is the way going to stay.
 
Okay people, point made. *shinks back*

But referring back to dragon's post, it is a timebomb, which is a great point I had never thought of before. Anything with Protect can usually hurt it if its holding Burn Orb or Toxic Orb. Anything that has high defense (Torkoal with Iron Defense, maybe? Gorebyss BPing Iron Defense? Steel Types? Rock Types?) causes fear in Swellow, since and they'll switch out. Maybe an alternate moveset on some bulkier Pokémon (Quagsire?) that utilizes protect. Sableye can use Mean Look to trap Swellow and combine it with protect while hitting it with Power Gem or Rock Tomb. Just because something is powerful doesn't mean it's broken in UU. If you take a bit of damage big deal; Swellow dies quickly already and even quicker with Guts activation.
 
Really steel and rock types are your safest/best bets ...

Torkoal, Gorebyss and Quagsire will still all take too much damage despite their defences to be effective counters ... whilst Sableye stands no chance, even if it switches in on Facade, it's got to a) survive the following Brave Bird, which with base 50 HP and 75 Defence its not likely to do b) set up mean look, which Swellow can simply U-Turn out of anyway ...

If you take a bit of damage big deal;
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Actually it can be a really big deal, sometimes the tiniest amount of damage is a difference between a win or a loss.
 
despite our disagreements on a feww pokemon, surely the main site should update the ones we know about soon. at the moment typhlosion and azumarill are still acceptable UUs....
 
I actually played alot of people who don't mind Typh in a UU team before even though its always been officially a BL since back in Advance and GSC.
 
Well, this is a question, but I think it's best answered by the experts here rather than in SQSA.

I was going over some Pokemon and sets and I noticed that in UU, Lapras IMO does a better job than Lanturn in stopping the popular Rain Dance teams running around.
I have come up with 2 sets that I think would work well.

1. Hydro Pump/Thunder/Blizzard/Heal Bell @ Wide Lens (Dragon Pulse is omitted because again, I plan to use this in UU where there is no Kingdra.) Wide Lens is for the powerful inaccurate moves, and I will use a defensive sprad so Lapras can afford to miss. Toxic is a huge problem for tanks like Lapras, so Heal Bell is slapped on.

2. Whirlpool/Perish Song/Ice Beam/Protect @ Wide Lens/Leftovers
Perish-Trap. Wide Lens, again, is for accuracy on Whirlpool, Protect semi-stalls, and Ice Beam is for everything it doesn't kill, particularily the odd whirlwinding flying type. I plan on a full defensive spread for this.

Or if both of these are awful, please give me some suggestion.


On the issue of Swellow, I'm considering using it as a lead. Please tell me how in the hell it hurts Aggron/Probopass, both of which are 4x resistance to its STABs. I think those are its two definite counters, throwing the whole 'move it out of UU' out the window. It doesn't even get Rock Smash, and the loss of HP Ground was the thing that hurt Swellow the most. I agree with everyone who said that Rock types with high defense are plentiful in UU, and that it can be easily stopped. And it lasts even less with the introduction of Brave Bird, which I do not believe was mentioned in the whole timebomb diatribe.
 
Age of Kings said:
Well, this is a question, but I think it's best answered by the experts here rather than in SQSA.

I was going over some Pokemon and sets and I noticed that in UU, Lapras IMO does a better job than Lanturn in stopping the popular Rain Dance teams running around.
I have come up with 2 sets that I think would work well.

1. Hydro Pump/Thunder/Blizzard/Heal Bell @ Wide Lens (Dragon Pulse is omitted because again, I plan to use this in UU where there is no Kingdra.) Wide Lens is for the powerful inaccurate moves, and I will use a defensive sprad so Lapras can afford to miss. Toxic is a huge problem for tanks like Lapras, so Heal Bell is slapped on.

2. Whirlpool/Perish Song/Ice Beam/Protect @ Wide Lens/Leftovers
Perish-Trap. Wide Lens, again, is for accuracy on Whirlpool, Protect semi-stalls, and Ice Beam is for everything it doesn't kill, particularily the odd whirlwinding flying type. I plan on a full defensive spread for this.

Or if both of these are awful, please give me some suggestion.


On the issue of Swellow, I'm considering using it as a lead. Please tell me how in the hell it hurts Aggron/Probopass, both of which are 4x resistance to its STABs. I think those are its two definite counters, throwing the whole 'move it out of UU' out the window. It doesn't even get Rock Smash, and the loss of HP Ground was the thing that hurt Swellow the most. I agree with everyone who said that Rock types with high defense are plentiful in UU, and that it can be easily stopped. And it lasts even less with the introduction of Brave Bird, which I do not believe was mentioned in the whole timebomb diatribe.
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When you can name just 2-3 counters to a Pokemon, that makes it fall in the category of overcentralising the metagame. However, as pointed out above, other defensive Rock Pokemon are capable of taking on Swellow, so maybe it can stay.

And really, unless you have Wish Support, hell even with Wish Support, tanking Lapras needs Rest, since a tank should also be able to take hits, i.e. switching in i.e. SR, as well as attack. Heal Bell, while supporting the team, just won't do for Lapras itself as a tank. Rest over Heal Bell. BTW, Perish Trapping is gay as hell, and should be kept aside for use by retards IMHO.
 
BTW, Perish Trapping is gay as hell, and should be kept aside for use by retards IMHO.
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I've always felt that if someone can actually manage pull off a Perish-trap that they earned it. It's impossible to find a single free turn, finding two or three is a miracle.

The tiers should be updated soon on the website too.
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I can't wait to see what the discussions here and the usage reports from Shoddy have to say about the tiers. ^_^
 
gmax said:
When you can name just 2-3 counters to a Pokemon, that makes it fall in the category of overcentralising the metagame. However, as pointed out above, other defensive Rock Pokemon are capable of taking on Swellow, so maybe it can stay.

And really, unless you have Wish Support, hell even with Wish Support, tanking Lapras needs Rest, since a tank should also be able to take hits, i.e. switching in i.e. SR, as well as attack. Heal Bell, while supporting the team, just won't do for Lapras itself as a tank. Rest over Heal Bell. BTW, Perish Trapping is gay as hell, and should be kept aside for use by retards IMHO.
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Well, those were the only two I can think off the top of my head. If I had the time to name every other one, then sure. But the point was is that it's easily dealt with. I think Swellow should stay solely due to the loss of Hidden Power and awful coverage. And if someone's crazy enough to use Electrode, there's your revenge killer, the fastest Pokemon in UU. I'm not sure if Brave Bird kills or not, but it is a possible switch-in.

Ok, thanks for the advice, I'm quite new to UU, actually, which makes everything else I've said so far somewaht disregarded. xD I'm only using Lapras because I was slaughtered by those evil Rain Dance teams. =(
 
When you can name just 2-3 counters to a Pokemon, that makes it fall in the category of overcentralising the metagame.
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One word; Heracross.

I like Perish Song as a move, but when you start trying to trap shit, then you're being gimmicky. It's excellent for forcing switches, breaking up BP chains and giving a nice finger gesture to the opponent's last Pokemon.

Anyway I think we've discussed everything there is to discuss for now, and all the frequent UU players seem happy enough with the conclusion we've reached and that's good enough for me. We should review things after a few months.
 
Lee said:
I like Perish Song as a move, but when you start trying to trap shit, then you're being gimmicky. It's excellent for forcing switches, breaking up BP chains and giving a nice finger gesture to the opponent's last Pokemon.
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Why didn't I think of that. >_> I badly needed a PHazer, so heh.

Does Lapras have to be a Resttalker, then? I was thinking of a set like Surf/Thunderbolt/Perish Song/Rest that supports my team best. =/ I was looking at the analysis for more help, and the only places Rest was mentioned were the Resttalker set and the Curse set-up. I can always put up an RMT, though.
 
scizor?

why is scizor BL at smogon? recently one or two others as well as myself on marriland have been arguing that spiritomb is BL and scizor is OU (EDIT! spiritob is now BL and scizor is now OU on marriland). My reasoning took alakazam into concideration. The zam has the same attack (special not attack though) as scizor- it simply has more speed. Scizor has more HP and more defense, making it even. Traditionaly the SINGLE reason alakazam was not OU was it's lack of a power up. Scizor has a few ways to pump up- it even has baton pass. More so- one weakness and most everything else it resists. The move pool is awesome. It has two types of STAB. Even more important is technician- this is sort of liek having stab on weak moves not your own type. This makes quick attack and double hit or whatever REALLY strong (i might be wrong about double hit as it ads up to 70, but in game it says 35...) scizor with quick attack almost one shotted my electivire. Double hit on my scizor breaks subs then burns through reaming HP. Why is it BL? speed? double weakness to fire? (i dont see many fire moves away from heatran though they are way more common than flying and steel). Is it scizor's lack of an earth move to counter the (elusive) OU fire pokemon? Im curious! -matt
 
While that's off-topic the quick answer is OU is based on usage, not power, doesn't matter how strong Scizor is, if people don't use him, he wont be OU.
 
Clefable is really strong in UU from what I've experienced. It's like I tried to escape from Blissey, but her cousin is waiting for me down in UU. Can't we bump this thing up to BL?
 
i think clefable was decided to go up, along with severl others which havent been updated on the list yet.


also, what was the decision on kangaskhan? i have one on my UU team, but i think it might be banned now :S
 
Kanga is a great physical attacker. It's somewhat fast and somewhat bulky, with great moves and two good traits. I've seen arguments both for and against it. I use it in a BL team and it does well, but I haven't seen it in UU.

I really don't know. :s
 
Both Clefable and Kangashkan are still up in the air as far as final decisions go (both are UU as of now).

Personally, I believe Clefable makes sense in BL - compare it to Miltank (currently BL). It's almost as good of a special wall as Miltank is physical (the only points where Clefable is worse being 15 lower in it's primary defensive stat and 40 lower speed). Clefable, on the other hand, has a huge amount of other advantages - a vastly superior ability, a much better movepool (both in terms of support and offense), and the fact that Normal is a better type for special walling than physical. And that's not even considering the sweeping threat that Clefable poses.
 
Yep, Clefable owns everything : )

But before you put it in BL, remember how many fighting types there are in UU, and it's stats are just 95/70/73/85/90/60... which isn't all that good. It's highest stat is Special Defense, and it's the only one that clears 300 barring HP. Clefable is most certainly a beast, but if it goes to BL, please move the likes of Pinsir and friends to BL as well. There is no way it's any better than those guys.
 
skiddle said:
Yep, Clefable owns everything : )

But before you put it in BL, remember how many fighting types there are in UU, and it's stats are just 95/70/73/85/90/60... which isn't all that good. It's highest stat is Special Defense, and it's the only one that clears 300 barring HP. Clefable is most certainly a beast, but if it goes to BL, please move the likes of Pinsir and friends to BL as well. There is no way it's any better than those guys.
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I guess the arguement is based on usage, what of Tentacruel? =/
 
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