i'm still struggling to cope with the thought of swellow in UU. it just seems that i have no choice but to run one of aggron, probopass or golem on my team just for him. seems to me he'll oviercentralise the metagame, although if you guys have had enough of this discussion, just ignore me and what i say.
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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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Heh, are you serious?
Guts Facade from a Neutral 252 attack EV Swellow does a minimum of 50.00% - 58.76% to a 252 HP/252 Def +Def personality Sandslash...
That alone should tell you that Sandslash cannot switch in, because it won't be able to take another hit once it does. Don't forget that Sandslash isn't exactly all that fast, so it's going to take a miracle to get that Stone Edge off.
I wasn't counting Guts in that...but okay, point made. I guess that means that Golem, Aggron, Probopass and possibly Rhydon if NFE's are allowed can stop it. It could be moved up into BL (I think this was already discussed, but I'm giving my input). But in BL, it has to deal with Cloyster, Regirock, Registeel, Steelix, Spiritomb, Uxie, Umbreon, Claydol, Sandstorm, Hail and Stealth Rocks. In OU, it has twenty thousand other Pokémon that kill it. Ursaring, Heracross and Machamp are much better Guts users.
This is not how BL vs UU arguments are supposed to be like. BL / OU pokemon do not exist in UU. The only thing to compare swellow to is UU pokemon. If other UU pokemon cannot compete, then that is the only reason to move it up. The performance of Swellow in OU / BL does not matter at all in this argument.
Anyway, Swellow is a suicidal timebomb. Yes, it is absurdly powerful. However, it kills itself in some 8 turns with Burn Orb, and kills itself even faster with the toxic orb. U-Turn + Toxic Orb will save it some life, yes, but it can only do that some 4 times max before it kills itself to Stealth Rocks. Priority attacks whittle the little HP it has left down, and I can see hitmontop fake-out / mach punch scaring it off rather quickly.
Assuming GUTs is activated, it loses HP every turn it switches in (even on earthquake, it loses 12.5% to burn or 6.25% to toxic, in addition to stealth rocks).
Further, Aggron, Golem, Probopass all pretty much wall swellow to death. Ghost pokemon like Rotom and Banette can switch on the very easily predicted Facade and force swellow to take even more residual damage, or to attack with Brave Bird (which is even more residual damage).
I think it is worth testing. But I can really see Swellow going either way on this. Good arguments are on both sides of this issue.
The whole Time Bomb argument really doesn't mean anything. It can Roost as you switch to your counter, and get back 25% of its health just like that. You can't just assume that SR will be there on the field, since Banette and Rotom aren't exactly high on defense, and will fall sooner or later, unlike Dusknoir and Spiritomb. Solid spinners like Hitmontop and Blastoise can survive up to such a point and get rid of the Rocks. Whats stopping Swellow from executing an endgame sweep at this point apart from Aggron/Probopass/Golem? Hell, the most common UU Pokemon in ADV was Hypno with Wish, and I don't see that changing, so Swellow will usually have Wish support as well. Swellow is a Pokemon that just needs a little support to succeed, and UU Pokemon can easily provide it.
Seriously Swellow is not as game-breaking as everyone is suggesting, personally I dind Hitmonlee, Scyther, and Clefable more troublesome ... Swellow is a one trick pony stopped by any sturdy steel or rock type.
Swellow already suffers in terms of attack type coverage, if you start losing moves to make room for roost its in trouble. Not to metion with base 60 HP 60 Def and 50 SpD it really cannot afford to roost ...
Erm Magcargo, Kabutops, Omastar, Sudowoodo (possibly never tried it), Armaldo, Relicanth, Bastiodon ... seriously anything with a decent defence and rock typing pretty much stops it.
Hypno usage is way down on what it once was ...
Swellow already suffers in terms of attack type coverage, if you start losing moves to make room for roost its in trouble. Not to metion with base 60 HP 60 Def and 50 SpD it really cannot afford to roost ...
Erm Magcargo, Kabutops, Omastar, Sudowoodo (possibly never tried it), Armaldo, Relicanth, Bastiodon ... seriously anything with a decent defence and rock typing pretty much stops it.
Hypno usage is way down on what it once was ...
I don't know that there is a common special wall at the moment ...
Blastoise, Meganium, Vileplume, Shuckle, seem to be generic walls ...
Grumpig is still around, more so then Hypno ...
Probopass is reasonaly popular as its one of the safer switch ins to SpecsAltaria ..
That's why I use Magcargo, it can recover ... ;), however yes I agree Swellow hits hard, rock types do however force Swellow out and give you an opportunity to set up Stealth Rock, which people really should be doing given that Swellow, Pinisr, Ninetales, Lapras and Scyther are all real threats and don't like the damage.
If you really want to beat Swellow use a rock type with high def, there are plenty of them in UU. Swellow has pretty poor attack coverage, what's it going to hit you with, Pursuit? U-Turn? It obviously has a lot of power, but also several counters it cannot really get past. Certanily useful, but no more gamebreaking than other UU sweepers (like Omastar in rain.)
Shuckle is honestly probably one of the best walls in UU right now. Swellow really can't hurt him at all. Seriously, this guy takes hits a lot better than the Rock/Steels in UU plus it takes hits better than all the special walls there too. It can pose a threat to anything coming in by Knocking Off their item and it can also Encore their attempts to set up.
It's most likely going to be one of the most popular mixed walls there.
Heh, it basically counters all the super-hard special hitters out there in UU even without Sandstorm, and even the physical ones get screwed over in some way or another.
I'm not saying it's BL material or anything. I'm just saying to watch out for it, since if there needs to be a mixed wall in UU, the throne is inevitably going to Shuckle since it has gotten 1000000x better this generation and isn't NU like in ADV.
Heh, as for Swellow, like previously mentioned, is walled by any Rock with high defense. Kabutops especially is a great counter since it can end Swellow very quickly with STAB Aqua Jet off of 115 base attack. I've never had any problems with Swellow at all in UU since I run a Shuckle lead and I also have a Scarf Rotom on my team.
It's most likely going to be one of the most popular mixed walls there.
Heh, it basically counters all the super-hard special hitters out there in UU even without Sandstorm, and even the physical ones get screwed over in some way or another.
I'm not saying it's BL material or anything. I'm just saying to watch out for it, since if there needs to be a mixed wall in UU, the throne is inevitably going to Shuckle since it has gotten 1000000x better this generation and isn't NU like in ADV.
Heh, as for Swellow, like previously mentioned, is walled by any Rock with high defense. Kabutops especially is a great counter since it can end Swellow very quickly with STAB Aqua Jet off of 115 base attack. I've never had any problems with Swellow at all in UU since I run a Shuckle lead and I also have a Scarf Rotom on my team.
Ok but I mean, how "smartness" can be a Pokémon counter? Nothing really stops Pinsir besides prediction, in UU... if he manages to predict Calm Mind or HP Ground, Swellow can even switch-in on Latios and OHKO with Facade, but Latios is not allowed in UU nonetheless, even tough "smartness" counters him. You can slowly wear Pinsir down with priority moves and Life Orb recoil, but how many priority users will survive against Pinsir more than a turn? And can them really dent that decent 100 base defense with a 40 bp move? I just would know the manner trough with expert UU players deal with Pinsir other than prediction and revenge killers.
A factor that is not specific to Pinsir, similar arguments can be made about Hitmonlee, Ninetales, etc. etc., hence the reason a number are listed as "To Be Tested".
But prediction and revenge killers are how seasoned UU players deal with Pinsir, sorry there is no easy solution (unless of course Pinsir is Scarfed/Banded then it becomes much simpler)
Swellow 3HKOs with Guts Brave Bird actually so it is not that great of a counter. It cannot hurt Swellow at all so if it switches in on Brave Bird it has two options, either take the second Brave Bird and Rest in an attempt to stall it out of HP or Encore Brave Bird to give something else a safe switch in. In the former situation all you are doing is giving Swellow an opportunity to Roost back up, which I don't see as that bad of an option on Swellow, especially if Shuckle is the best answer you have for it. The latter is pointless as anything that can take Brave Bird should be able to take anything Swellow throws at it, except possibly a random Hidden Power, and all you're doing is risking a death by CH for nothing.
Having said all that I've never had a problem with Swellow in UU as it is so easy to wall (and kill) with any Normal/Flying resist, particularly Rotom as it resists anything Swellow can hit it with and works well with Choice Scarf. Also there is nothing wrong with bulking up its HP and Defense a bit in order to take a few hits. I actually like your version of Scarf Rotom with a bulky-ish spread and the ability to take at least two Brave Birds.
List of UU Pokemon that easily deal with Shuckle 1v1:
Raticate, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Persian, Primeape, Dodrio, Muk, Hypno, Electrode, Mr. Mime, Sudowoodo, Granbull, Qwilfish, Mightyena, Vigoroth, Exploud, Mawile(lol), Aggron, Sharpedo, Grumpig, Seviper, Crawdaunt, Banette, Chimecho, Absol, Glalie, Bibarel, Bastiodon, Purugly, Skuntank, Chatot, Toxicroak, Probopass, Froslass.
There may be more than that but this is at least 34 Pokemon that can either cripple and set up on Shuckle or just hit hard with a strong SE attack. In fact, Muk couldn't have an easier time against it as it can neither Knock Off its recovery nor Toxic on the switch in. In that list I have also neglected any Pokemon that Shuckle wouldn't ever switch in on due to their ability to OHKO after set up such as Rain Dancers, Swords Dancers and the like, as well as hard hitting Choice Pokemon such as Hitmonlee.
I'm not saying Shuckle is worthless, far from it, it has plenty of uses as you have already shown, I'm just saying that when you are slower than everything and have absolutely no way of attacking whatsoever you can be a serious liability to your team.
then they eat a knock off and lose their item. he doesnt have to do much to be useful.
i'm still going to argue the swellow point, as several of the coutners listed struggle to take a steel wing from swellow. also, with talk of hp fighting being deployed, how well do some of those stand up to it (out of interest, this isnt an argument, im genuinely curious. And as for it lasting only 8 turns, most things that come up against it dont last one. even if it takes out 3 [pokes, thats HALF a team before it goes.
i'm still going to argue the swellow point, as several of the coutners listed struggle to take a steel wing from swellow. also, with talk of hp fighting being deployed, how well do some of those stand up to it (out of interest, this isnt an argument, im genuinely curious. And as for it lasting only 8 turns, most things that come up against it dont last one. even if it takes out 3 [pokes, thats HALF a team before it goes.
THe only problem being the majority of the Banette and Hypno you'll face rarely carry taunt ... as for Glalie and Exploud, well they are used so infrequently who knows if there is even a popular moveset for them.
And as Alienjesus has noted they still lose their item ...
Most of the Swellow knocking around Shoddy don't carry steel wing, as Steel is an extremely poor attack type ... the most popular set is Protect / Brave Bird / Facade / U-Turn, which most rock types can easily handle. *edit* steel wing would also still onlydo neutral damage to Magcargo and Omastar/Kabutops.
As for HP Fighting, it's a non-stabbed attack coming off a base 50 Special Attack stat, Aggron might have to worry a bit, but as for everything else?
*Edit*
Another reason for Steel Wing's general "suckiness" just occured to me it would still only hit Magcargo, Omastar, and Kabutops for neutral damage, due to the resistance offered by their other type.
That doesn't mean it isn't a viable option on them. Bologo has already showcased the merits of Taunt Banette in BeachBoy's recent warstory, and for Hypno it is useful as a more reliable option than Hypnosis for preventing PHazing while you BP Nasty Plot, for cases where something is already asleep or the opponent has Whirlwind Noctowl.
That just makes them more unpredictable. Well, at least in Exploud's case, Glalie's movepool and stat distribution are so crap I can't see anything useful about it besides Spikes and Taunt.
EDIT: Forgot about Explosion. Still doesn't improve it much.
Which isn't often crippling for a Pokemon, and if it is they will take measures to preventing it such as Sub, which every Pokemon can set up before Shuckle moves, whilst Muk and Gastrodon are unaffected by its added effect. Then there's Switcheroo/Trick on the aforementioned Hypno/Banette. Banette can also Knock Off and give Shuckle a taste of its own medicine. Ultimately though, who cares if something like Grumpig loses its leftovers when it is getting many free turns of setup in return?
I'm not sure that Bologo's use of Banette in that war-story is entirely relavent, after all Banette was being used in a compltely different competitive environment where pokemon may feel more comfortable trying to set up on it ...
Unfortuantely subbing and stat-upping against Shuckle is not without risks as there is always the possibility that its running Encore ...
I was simply saying that if it was moved to BL, people would start using it in OU. BL threats are OU threats as well. I cannot compete in the BL environment where those exist, so it has to remain UU. Understand?
I agree with Shiny Oddish with the Shuckle issue. You shouldn't have to use a Stat upper anyway since Shuckle has 10 Base HP. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but when Encored you can switch out, right? Anything can switch in on it and pose a threat, but the counter just loses an item, takes some damage or is afflicated by a stat condition. That's not the end of the world.
BL Pokemon are not necessarily OU threats, no. A Pokemon is BL if it is not used often in the standard metagame and if it is too powerful for UU. That's all. Regigigas is BL even though people use it less than Whiscash!
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