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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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Kanga is the sole reason I carry Bonemerang on Marowak. I've never had trouble with it, it should remain.
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Erm Marowak has long been banished to BL limbo ...

In keeping an RD going, is Lanturn effective at killing Golduck?
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You stand a fair chance as most CM Golduck sets don't carry HP: Grass as standard, Tentacruel (if it remains UU) will do to, otherwise outspeeding it with a strong phyiscal attacker is as good a strateg as any.
 
In that kind of scenario you're probably better running Thunder...

Its not exactly a bad move, Lanturn needs all the power it can get and it gets STAB and it does have a 30% paralysis.
 
Shiny Oddish said:
Erm Marowak has long been banished to BL limbo ...

This is a BL AND UU discussion, I know that quite well.

You stand a fair chance as most CM Golduck sets don't carry HP: Grass as standard, Tentacruel (if it remains UU) will do to, otherwise outspeeding it with a strong phyiscal attacker is as good a strateg as any.
I've seen a few, but you could also slap on some SD just to make sure.
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@Forsety: Why would I use Thunder against Golduck if it stops rain with its ability? o_o
 
This is a BL AND UU discussion, I know that quite well.
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Then I really don't understand your bringing Marowak into the discussion... -Cynthia was saying Kanga isn't breaking in UU, then you make reference to BL in the response. I'm afraid you've lost me ....
 
Age of Kings said:
@Forsety: Why would I use Thunder against Golduck if it stops rain with its ability? o_o
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To deal with it CM'ing in your face, the extra oomph and risk of paralysis doesn't let it shrug them off like it could with T-bolt after CM. Of course that assumes it doesn't just Hypnosis you and leave you defenseless or the hit and miss accuracy of Thunder...

In short I'll just say Lanturn can't beat Golduck without a risk of sleep unless it has T-Waved or Subbed first. Amnesia doesn't do much in the way of helping when you're asleep to begin with. But Golduck can't do much if anything to Lanturn either even if it does pack HP Grass.
 
Shiny Oddish said:
Then I really don't understand your bringing Marowak into the discussion... -Cynthia was saying Kanga isn't breaking in UU, then you make reference to BL in the response. I'm afraid you've lost me ....
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Whoops then. xD *dyslexia*

The point I wanted to make is that Kanga is quite easy to stop. ._. FP versions are stopped by Pinsir, and CB versions....well, a point there. =/
 
Oh, I'm sorry then.

BTW, Kanga should remain UU. That thing doesn't even hit hard. Froslass as well. She only works in hail and only hurts with Blizzard.
 
I think Froslass should be BL. It gets Boltbeam, Destiny Bond, and it's the only pokemon that lays spikes AND blocks spin. It's pretty fast too, and has one of those annoying evasion abilities.

Usually when it shows up it gets like 2-3 kills. Fast destiny bonders are annoying... You either don't hit it and die, or you hit it and you both die...


But yeah, I agree with Kanghas being UU... It has a whopping 295 attack. It has nice moves but doesn't hit too hard.
 
Skiddle
I think Froslass should be BL.

It gets Boltbeam, Destiny Bond, and it's the only pokemon that lays spikes AND blocks spin. It's pretty fast too, and has one of those annoying evasion abilities.

Usually when it shows up it gets like 2-3 kills. Fast destiny bonders are annoying... You either don't hit it and die, or you hit it and you both die...
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I'm not convinced I'm afraid ...

Whilst Boltbeam is still useful for hitting for neutral damage Ice is not as useful an attacking type in the UU environment ... Destiny Bond is not in itself instantly worthy of BL status.

It's evasion ability is dependent upon Hail and it's already been decided that Ambomasnow is banned, so you are going to have to have a pokemon dedicated to setting up hail to make the most of it ...

As for its speed well its rendered useless by T-Wave or Stun Spore, not to mention there are two priority (Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak) that both hit Froslass for SE damage.

As you said she's annoying but BL worthy, not for me, others might disagree though ...
 
The only thing that might make Froslass BL IMO is the fact that it is the only spiker with immunity to rapid spin. I don't think that is too big of a deal however.
 
But yeah, I agree with Kanghas being UU... It has a whopping 295 attack. It has nice moves but doesn't hit too hard.
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It's not only base 95 attack (which gets you to 317 if you're using a boosting nature, btw). Kanga's also got 90 base speed, very bulky stats for UU (105/80/80 - in terms of SkarmCents, that's bulkier than Quagsire), and a huge offensive movepool which includes Return, Sucker Punch, Crunch, Earthquake, Hammer Arm, Focus Punch, and Fake Out. With Return, Earthquake, and Sucker Punch/Crunch, it hits everything in UU that resists normal SE (the one exception being Wormadam Trash, who isn't a great pokemon in itself and who also lacks a way to really threaten Kanga).

Furthermore, Kanga is only weak to fighting, and no UU Fighting pokemon except Hitmontop (and Wrath if it remains UU) can safely switch into Kangaskhan. All UU Fighting types except Primape are slower than Kanga, as well. Top is slightly sketchy - a fully defensive top (252/252 Impish with Intimidate) takes 36.84% - 43.42% from an Adamant CB Return, 24.67% - 29.28% with no boosting item. With just 4 attack EV's, however, Top only has about a 8% chance of OHKOing a 4/0 Kangaskhan with CC. Since Kangaskhan outspeeds Hitmontop, it can easily KO it after the defense drop unless Top is packing Mach Punch. Either way, Hitmontop lacks reliable recovery and stands a chance of being KO'd after 3 switch-ins - residual damage means it almost certainly loses. Top does stand a decent chance of beating Kanga, but it's still not a 100% counter and gets worn out after switching in too many times anyways.
 
So you think Kangha is BL? Well, I'm OK with that, I never really cared for it, so I guess I won't bother defending it this time :P
 
I can honestly say I've never had any problem with Kanga, in my experience its never been quite fast enough, and despite having an excellent movepool, it often suffers from four-move syndrome, the move its lacking is the move it most desperately needs ...
 
Ditto to that. I've never found Kanga's to be something to be game defining, afterall in the end its nothing more than just another generic sweeper (an effective one at that) without any support/status moves. Sides it may be bulky but it has no resists at all, that does no go down well.
 
If you can get a burn in on Kanga, it's pretty screwed. It loses those magical OHKOs and eats away at the base 105 HP pretty ravenously.
Magcargo works pretty well in this endeavor.

I've been messing around with a non-CB Kanga and trying different sets. Right now I'm finding a Scrappy SubPunch Endeavor and Return set to help my team out the most though I want to abuse it's great defenses with Early Bird Resting. Too bad my team is too defensive as it is, otherwise I'd love to try it as a mixed wall.
 
Because Magcargo just loves switching into CB EQ.

without any support/status moves
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Wish, Roar, the usual Toxic/Swagger/Weather that everything has, Thief if you're into that (good for Primeape), Captivate, Safeguard, and Disable. It's decent.
 
Kangaskhan can't do much to Rotom, and is thus easily countered by it. Rotom can Will-O-Wisp the kangaroo with speed that's JUST higher, and then easily survive a non-STAB Crunch, and if Kanga has Sucker Punch, it won't work when Rotom is giving a Will-O-Wisp.
 
But that doesn't work, since Kanga might be using Scrappy. Nothing really resists CB'd Kanga, but Aggron and a bulky Nidoqueen might work. Maybe Curse Muk as well for the Fighting resist. Torkoal with 140 Base Def can easily burn with Lava Plume or WoW. In short, Kanga needs to stay UU, but teams just need something to counter it. I think Fake Out + Last Resort Persian does a decent job at nailling Kanga's Base 80 Def, although Purugly could be more faverable. Crobat and Altaria should be able to safely switch in against a CB'd fighting attack as well.
 
sanjay120 said:
Wish, Roar, the usual Toxic/Swagger/Weather that everything has, Thief if you're into that (good for Primeape), Captivate, Safeguard, and Disable. It's decent.
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I was thinking more along the lines of Agility/Swords Dance whatever that further its sweep potential.

Because Magcargo just loves switching into CB EQ.
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Earthquake is actually played surprisingly rarely on Kangas. Main reason being its redundant coverage if you run Scrappy and most of the time its better just to Return. Worst that can happen is a rock/steel resist who eat fighting anyway thanks to Scrappy.

If you can get a burn in on Kanga, it's pretty screwed. It loses those magical OHKOs and eats away at the base 105 HP pretty ravenously.
Magcargo works pretty well in this endeavor.
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Torkoal would do that well too.

I want to abuse it's great defenses with Early Bird Resting.
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It seriously doesn't work that well. You could've just as easily done that back in Advance and it never had much effect simply because no resistances or buffs.

Crobat and Altaria should be able to safely switch in against a CB'd fighting attack as well.
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Crobat is technically BL.
 
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