DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

Status
Not open for further replies.
Splash plate Omastar OHKOs 252 HP/252 SDef Shuckle (without +SDef nature) in rain. It isn't that hard to beat.

Which brings us to Omastar. It only has two real counters in UU, Lanturn and Mantine and even then Mantine doesn't enjoy HP:Electric. And Mantine is a bad pokemon in general imo, because what kind of special wall gets OHKO'd by stab T-bolt?
 
Jaxi said:
Which brings us to Omastar. It only has two real counters in UU, Lanturn and Mantine and even then Mantine doesn't enjoy HP:Electric. And Mantine is a bad pokemon in general imo, because what kind of special wall gets OHKO'd by stab T-bolt?
Click to expand...

Erm your list of "real counters" assumes that Rain Dance is already in effect ... in any event Hidden Power is important in determining further potential counters, without HP Electric Tentacruel also stands a chance of walling it (if it stays UU), without HP Grass Quagsire stands a chance.

Also Golduck can come in on revenge and outspeed it with its Cloud Nine ability (and if for some reason its carrying HP Grass it will OHKO it).

If Rain Dance isn't set up the field opens to any number of faster grass pokemon ...
 
And unlike Kingdra, Omastar is limited to one side of the spectrum, which makes him much easier to deal with. Swift swimmers are always a pain the arse, but they require a turn to set up, and are limited to 5/8 turns of attacking.

We need to stop persecuting stuff because it only has two counters. Pinsir and Kanga have NO counters, and we're letting them in, because we don't want UU to develop into a mini-OU where everything has a clear-cut counter that you just switch in and force the opponent to take yet more passive damage.

Pokemon like Kanga and Pinsir do have a counter - it's called prediction and D/P needs a bit more of it imo.

[/speech]
 
Omastar can always set up the rain it needs or something else can use it to set it up.

I really don't think any kind of UU team stands a chance against a good Rain dance UU team. Everyone seems to forget Gorebyss too. It has 114 base SpA (while Omastar has 115) and also has Swift swim. I doubt that Tentacruel stays UU.
 
I really don't think any kind of UU team stands a chance against a good Rain dance UU team. Everyone seems to forget Gorebyss too. It has 114 base SpA (while Omastar has 115) and also has Swift swim.
Click to expand...

I really don't think you can make such sweeping statements without any sort of evidence to back it up ... I'm not suggesting that Rain Dance teams aren't powerful in UU, and they can certainly sweep an unprepared opponent, but I don't think they're uncounterable.

Gorebyss is exactly the same as Omastar good after a Rain Dance, not to exciting without ... are either too powerful for UU, not really.
 
Agreed. One must prepare for Rain Dance teams in UU, and various rain Dancers can all be threatening opponents, Omastar, Gorebyss, heck even Huntail. These threats have counters though, while things like Kingdra and Ludicolo hsve too many typing advantages and decent base stats to overcome reliably.

I haven't seen anyone use Pinsir in UU, so i have no comment. Kanga I have found rather annoying, but not particularly gamebreaking.

I've used Froslass in UU, and it hasn't been that wonderful. It's SpAtk is average, and if you go Modest you get outsped by things like Jolly Rapidash. Its ability is nearly useless in UU. Maybe it should go on the watch list, but it doesn't seem to have enough offense to take down well designed teams'

Shuckle may be too good of a wall. It can take hits from both sides effectively, encore statuppers, knock off choicers, and toxic everything else. Rest protects it from status and makes it difficult to KO. I guess things like Crawdaunt can stop Shuckle, but really it is too useful as a wall to nearly any Pokemon UU has to offer.
 
I agree about all this "prediction" stuff, Lee. Any pokemon can be countered if you switch in properly. If you come in on the right move, you can get an advantage... people saying stuff like Primape and Omastar are unbeatable probably made a bad switch and got their counter killed.

You can switch lots of things into Primape. Ghosts wall almost it's entire set, Toxicroak walls it... theres plenty of things that can come into one ore more of it's moves. Just like it takes prediction to use a choice bander, it also requires prediction to counter one. Thats why Pokemon is such a great game... it always keeps you on your toes. (even though the graphics and sounds aren't exactly riveting)

Now about Omastar. Being such a crappy type, it's going to have a hard time switching in. Most water types wall it almost entirely, taking hits only from Ancient Power or Hidden Power. It hits really hard, but unless it's running timid, tons of stuff outrun it, even in the rain. Any bulky grasser can come in on most moves and OHKO it, and considering how many there is in UU (vileplume, bellossom, meganium come to mind) it's not unstoppable.

Omastar also has the four moveslot syndrome. With one move being taken up by Rain Dance (if it sets it up alone) and another by Surf, you have to choose between HP Grass, HP Electric, Ice Beam and Ancient Power. If the opponent knows your moves, it's easier to counter. If it doesn't set up rain dance by itself, then you have to predict when it'll show up, and hit it with a SE move, or sub, or stat-up.

@ Cynthia, I agree that Shuckle is good, but Swellow, Kingler, Crawdaunt, and other hard hitters still 2HKO it. The aforementioned Omastar beats it as well. Vileplume can change the weather and solarbeam it to death. Just switch in Swellow on SR, and switch the crabs in on Encore, and switch Vileplume into Toxic.

Heres some calcs folks, its not hard to take down. I'll only mention the pokemon I just listed.

-Adamant 252 Swellow's Brave Bird on 252/252 Impish Shuckle:

38.93% - 45.90%

LOL, ok, that doesnt work... 3HKO, 2HKO with SR up.



-Adamant 252 CB Crabhammer Kingler on 252/252 Impish Shuckle

78.28% - 91.80%

HA HA HA HA p4wned. OHKO in the rain or with SR up.




-Adamant 252 CB Crabhammer Crawdaunt on 252/252 Impish Shuckle

73.77% - 86.89%

Nearly as much as Kingler. Next!!




-Modest 252 Omastar Hydropump on 252/252 Careful Shuckle

63.93% - 75.41%

Hmmm, less than I expected, but in the rain in could do some damage. Possible OHKO with SR or Rain.




Modest 252 Vileplume's Solarbeam on 252/252 Careful Shuckle

29.10% - 34.43%

Not a good counter.




Adamant CB Aggron iron Head on 252/252 Impish Shuckle

62.30% - 72.95%

Heh, just for fun, I decided to do Aggron. Turns out he 2HKOs it :D



PS: Hi shiney oddish. Somehow I passed you in posts : O
 
skiddle said:
people saying stuff like Primape and Omastar are unbeatable probably made a bad switch and got their counter killed.
Click to expand...
Actually it's the opposite for me at least. I tend to sweep with Omastar in ladder matches. And I never said it's unbeatable but Rain dance teams in UU come pretty close (I haven't lost yet for example).

Now about Omastar. Being such a crappy type, it's going to have a hard time switching in. Most water types wall it almost entirely, taking hits only from Ancient Power or Hidden Power. It hits really hard, but unless it's running timid, tons of stuff outrun it, even in the rain.
Click to expand...
It has 4x resist to Fire though. And you don't necessarily have to switch it in. Bring it in when one of your pokemon just died. It can also take any unboosted, unstabbed Earthquake (just btw). Deoxys-S, Deoxys-A, "balanced" Deoxys, Golduck with Cloud nine, Rayquaza, Ninjask and Choice scarfers with at least 279 speed outspeed Modest Omastar in rain and in UU only Cloud nine Golduck and said Choice scarfers. A ton of stuff, eh?

Omastar also has the four moveslot syndrome. With one move being taken up by Rain Dance (if it sets it up alone) and another by Surf, you have to choose between HP Grass, HP Electric, Ice Beam and Ancient Power. If the opponent knows your moves, it's easier to counter. If it doesn't set up rain dance by itself, then you have to predict when it'll show up, and hit it with a SE move, or sub, or stat-up.
Click to expand...
Rain dance, Surf, Ice beam, HP:Grass in UU. It doesn't have to choose between Ice beam and Hidden power. It only has to choose between HP:Electric and Grass. Ancientpower and HP:Rock are a little silly imo even though they hurt Lapras and Walrein more.
 
hello everyone. I'm sorry I'm just rearing of into another disscusion but I was curious on the placement of a certain kind of poke.

Were does it look like the FEAR pokemon will be banished to this gen? (aka, Rattatatta, Phanphy, Smeargle, and starly)
 
^ With the current policy on NFE's, those Pokemon will be placed in the same tier as their fully evolved form. Smeargle's BL, Phanpy and Starly are OU and Rattata is UU.

The NFE policy is still liable to change, but as far as I know, non-unique pre-evolutions are placed in the same tier as their evolved forms.
 
Jaxi said:
Actually it's the opposite for me at least. I tend to sweep with Omastar in ladder matches. And I never said it's unbeatable but Rain dance teams in UU come pretty close (I haven't lost yet for example).


It has 4x resist to Fire though. And you don't necessarily have to switch it in. Bring it in when one of your pokemon just died. It can also take any unboosted, unstabbed Earthquake (just btw). Deoxys-S, Deoxys-A, "balanced" Deoxys, Golduck with Cloud nine, Rayquaza, Ninjask and Choice scarfers with at least 279 speed outspeed Modest Omastar in rain and in UU only Cloud nine Golduck and said Choice scarfers. A ton of stuff, eh?


Rain dance, Surf, Ice beam, HP:Grass in UU. It doesn't have to choose between Ice beam and Hidden power. It only has to choose between HP:Electric and Grass. Ancientpower and HP:Rock are a little silly imo even though they hurt Lapras and Walrein more.
Click to expand...


I didn't say it wasn't good, I said that it was counterable. Anyways, it has a 4x weakness to grass, which are super common in UU... so that kinda balances it's fire resists out.

Don't forget pokemon like Hitmonlee and Primape usually run scarves and can outrun and kill it. Easily. Hitmontop or chan can probably survive a hydro pump and OHKO it with a powerful fighting move.

Soooooooo yep. Omastar owns in UU, but it still belongs there. It most certainly isnt OU material.
 
The main problem is that a Rain Team in UU is always strong, because there isn't any weather changer, like Abomasnow or Tyranitar. Anyway, a good Choice Scarfed should be able to outspeed those swift swimmers.
 
Trust said:
The main problem is that a Rain Team in UU is always strong, because there isn't any weather changer, like Abomasnow or Tyranitar. Anyway, a good Choice Scarfed should be able to outspeed those swift swimmers.
Click to expand...

Hello my name is Golduck, I nullify the benefits of Rain Dance outspeeding swift swimmers without the reliance on choice scarf.

Also there are a plethora of weather changers in UU ... they are simply reliant upon a move to do it rather than an overpowering trait.
 
Yes Shiny, I was giving an example. Rain Dance teams and Sunny Day teams aren't so amazing as people think, and without an auto changer, you need some move slots.
 
It's being debated at the moment ... there was a thread about it somewhere.

There are a small number of unique pre-evolutions (Scyther, Electabuzz etc.) who are generally accepted in UU because they are different enough from their evolved forms to be considered seperate entities. The rest are currently in limbo ...

Hope this helps.
 
The rule of thumb is that if the pre-evo has something really defining it as a different pokemon, then it's fine. If not, then it's in the same tier as it's evolved form. Here's the list again:

Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Trapinch
-Poliwhirl
-Clamperl
-Vigoroth
-Pikachu
 
Fishin
The rule of thumb is that if the pre-evo has something really defining it as a different pokemon, then it's fine. If not, then it's in the same tier as it's evolved form.
Click to expand...

So is that the official word on that subject then? I lost track of what was going on in that thread a while back, and if so ... yay.
 
Omastar is pretty good, but it doesn't suck. I think sneasel, yanma, tangela, electabuzz, magmar, polywhirl, and clamperl are all fair in UU.

Pikachu and scyther are debatable, but they arent unstoppable. We should start a UU/NU thread soon.
 
How are Sneasel, Yanma, Tangela or Magmar all that different from their evolutions in terms of the role that they fulfil?
Click to expand...

Magmar is significantly faster than Magmortar, and I think that was his saving grace. The rest are banished to limbo.
 
Can someone please explain why Kingdra is not OU. I suppose it's based on usage, but come on... Mixdra completely smashes through teams. I use him on my rain team... once he gets the rain up... people always say "oh shit..."
 
The difference between BL and OU is determined by usage. Kingdra is rarely seen but is too poweful for UU and is thus BL. If everybody starts using him, he'll be OU. Simple as that.
 
-Cynthia- said:
I haven't seen anyone use Pinsir in UU, so i have no comment. Kanga I have found rather annoying, but not particularly gamebreaking.

Shuckle may be too good of a wall. It can take hits from both sides effectively, encore statuppers, knock off choicers, and toxic everything else. Rest protects it from status and makes it difficult to KO. I guess things like Crawdaunt can stop Shuckle, but really it is too useful as a wall to nearly any Pokemon UU has to offer.
Click to expand...

Kanga is the sole reason I carry Bonemerang on Marowak. I've never had trouble with it, it should remain.

I think Shuckle should be allowed to remain in UU because it lacks the Sandstorm it loves so much. Also, since the best form of damage it has is Toxic, and I've often seen Probopass just switch in to it. While the issue remains on how to KO Shuckle, I think Probopass can outstall it.

But don't kill if I'm wrong. D':

Also, in the same post I quote, it mentions how Rain is going to become common. I myself was slaughtered handily by one particular team. x_x Shuckle cannot respond to that, especially as I mentioned before that it won't have SS weather changers to protect it.

In keeping an RD going, is Lanturn effective at killing Golduck? To stop CM sets, it gets Amnesia, statuses the next turn and goes in for the kill. Of course, that stops its verstility, but it's worth a shot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top