Unpopular opinions

[MoonyLighty]

I've got two:
- Sword and Shield aren't as horrible as everyone seems to think they are. Sure, they have issues, but they're nowhere near as buggy as some of the old games. The storyline isn't top-tier, but not every Pokemon game can be the next B/W.
Edit-on: I suppose I kind of overestimate things sometimes. I guess I'm going off of the weird hyperbugs from Gen 1 and the occasional slowed feature, but you guys definitely have a point! :)
- Wallace is the best Pokemon character. Y'all need to get over Cynthia's Murder Dragon and show my boy some love.

 

[Merritt]

- Sword and Shield aren't as horrible as everyone seems to think they are. Sure, they have issues, but they're nowhere near as buggy as some of the old games. The storyline isn't top-tier, but not every Pokemon game can be the next B/W.

Aside from the RBY and GSC I'd be curious which buggy old games you're referring to. SwSh have had to patch several glitches so they're better than they used to be but I'm curious which games read as so buggy to you besides the ones held together with duct tape and prayers.

 

[MoonyLighty]

Aside from the RBY and GSC I'd be curious which buggy old games you're referring to. SwSh have had to patch several glitches so they're better than they used to be but I'm curious which games read as so buggy to you besides the ones held together with duct tape and prayers.

Ah, I meant the oldest ones. Everyone just seems to overhype them, honestly. Gen 4's health system was pretty bad too. They're still solid games, though!

 

[Ironmage]

Aside from the RBY and GSC I'd be curious which buggy old games you're referring to. SwSh have had to patch several glitches so they're better than they used to be but I'm curious which games read as so buggy to you besides the ones held together with duct tape and prayers.

There's also the relative prominence and potential interesting results from glitches to consider. I can't speak for where glitches show up in SwSh, but it's vanishingly unlikely for a casual player to accidentally trigger a serious gamebreak like gen 4 tweaking or gen 1 trainer escapes. And when they happen to somebody who knows what they're doing, we get amazing stuff like being able to catch all 151 RGB pokemon on a single cartridge within a few hours.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Sword and Shield aren't as horrible as everyone seems to think they are. Sure, they have issues, but they're nowhere near as buggy as some of the old games.

They really ain't even the worst games in the franchise. (USUM is just abysmal.)

On the other hand... RBY > FRLG.

It's just fun to play RBY because of all the glitchy BS. FRLG takes that away and... Kanto is just a big slab of cardboard. I just can't find it fun.

GSC is the worst about the bugs because they actively hinder the player without any benefit, like the Apricorn Balls being mostly useless at best.

Wallace is the best Pokemon character. Y'all need to get over Cynthia's Murder Dragon and show my boy some love.

Meh. Steven was cooler. Low key a mistake when you consider that Glacia also had 3 Water types, so there's a lot of overlap.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Wallace was only good in ORAS when they actually gave him a reason to be champion and also made him extremely gay

 

[pokemon4eva]

Glaceon is mediocre design
And it looking like a generic anime girl for the "hair" makes me suddenly realize why so many furries and weebs like it
Which brings me to another point. Eeveelution body types stopped being unique after Gen 2
View attachment 310610
Seen in silhouette, all after Espeon are thin bodied, no protrusions, with the only difference being ear shape, color, and tail. It makes it seem cookie cutter for a supposed hyper evolving species

While I don't think they're outright bad, I find them pretty eh for how it's just some feline creature with similar features. Also they're horribly overhyped whenever the slightest "hint" of NEW EEVEEVOLUTION GUYZ drops, especially Eevee who has become the new overexploited cash cow of the franchise, with G Max Eevee completely missing what makes it special. Flareon is very cute and fluffy tho, easily my favorite despite we all know how "good" it is in battle...

They really ain't even the worst games in the franchise. (USUM is just abysmal.)

USUM has an actual plot and near the double of programmed Pokemon of base SwSh. Just sayin

GSC is the worst about the bugs because they actively hinder the player without any benefit, like the Apricorn Balls being mostly useless at best.

Well, the Moon Ball is a dud, but the Love Ball...

"In Pokémon Gold, Silver, and Crystal, while it is intended to be more effective against Pokémon of the opposite gender, due to a glitch it has an 8× catch rate modifier against Pokémon of both the same species and gender as the player's active Pokémon, having a 1× modifier otherwise."

POKEMON SAID GAY RIGHTS!

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

USUM has an actual plot

You mean the mangled remnants of SM that that I can't turn a corner (mostly because there are no corners in that corridor-riddled mess of a game) without an NPC vomiting an average of 8.3 textboxes bursting with pointless garbage?

No thanks.

 

[p0ip0le]

we need a REAL, MATURE pokemon game for REAL GAMERS. here's my list of what it needs
- all pokemon, and unique animations for all of them except everything after gen5
- a good storyline but i need to be able to skip all the dialogue
- change the formula of the games (NOT LIKE GEN7)
- every trainer has to be CHALLENGING. the only way to do this is by giving them a full team of pokemon
- cynthia needs to be the champion (also you date her at the end)
- open world that lets me get close enough to the trees to inspect them for any faults
- asshole rival
- charizard dies. so does pikachu

--

actual hot take: SM/USUM are the best games in the franchise rn, followed very closely by B2W2 and plat

 

[pokemon4eva]

we need a REAL, MATURE pokemon game for REAL GAMERS. here's my list of what it needs
- all pokemon, and unique animations for all of them except everything after gen5
- a good storyline but i need to be able to skip all the dialogue
- change the formula of the games (NOT LIKE GEN7)
- every trainer has to be CHALLENGING. the only way to do this is by giving them a full team of pokemon
- cynthia needs to be the champion (also you date her at the end)
- open world that lets me get close enough to the trees to inspect them for any faults
- asshole rival
- charizard dies. so does pikachu

--

actual hot take: SM/USUM are the best games in the franchise rn, followed very closely by B2W2 and plat

Also, if the final starters stand in two legs I'm not buying the game

 

[Siggu]

They really ain't even the worst games in the franchise. (USUM is just abysmal.)

On the other hand... RBY > FRLG.

It's just fun to play RBY because of all the glitchy BS. FRLG takes that away and... Kanto is just a big slab of cardboard. I just can't find it fun.

I disagree on terms about USUM (whose story might be a little interior to that of SM, but all the other improvements can't be ignored) but I totally agree on that FRLG are simply not fun to play.

As you say, Red and Blue (and to a lesser extent Yellow) have that charm from a glitchy mess. Fire Red and Leaf Green, on the other hand... have virtually nothing to stand out from. They are correct and they perfectly fill the role they are meant to have, I'm not going to deny it... but they are so correct I needed to play a ROM hack that only changed the text (False Red) to even try to play it - it offers virtually nothing if you've played a Gen I game.

I would call them the weakest main series games I've played... but Yellow's utter joke of a difficulty curve (enough to make me not want to beat it) makes me place it even lower.

 

[Codraroll]

When I rank the Pokémon games, I tend to exclude the ones on the GameBoy. They were where the conventions were established, but before the point where the franchise really began adhering to them, following the same concepts game after game instead of approaching things in a new way. You can't fault RBY for setting a trend, but you can fault RSE onward from following it. It's why Pidgey is a more inspired design on a conceptual level than Pikipek: It's okay the first time, but by the time it has been copied for the sixth time, there's not much originality left. In short, RBY - and to some extent GSC - set out on the course with fresh ideas, while the games after are rated on how they use those ideas. Or reuse, as the case may be.

Anyway, I rank them something like this:

BW2 > Platinum > HGSS > BW1 > Emerald > XY > ORAS > USUM > FRLG > RS > DP >> SM >>> SwSh

In very rough terms, the games got steadily better until Gen V, with larger and more varied areas to explore, more features, better graphics, more intricate environments, more freedom, fun sidequests and a fun postgame ... and then XY surprised us by being very bare-bones. It definitely represented a graphical upgrade, but the side- and post-game features we had grown to expect were all absent. But surely this would be just a small dud like DP, before a full Platinum-like return to form? Instead we got ORAS, which was nice but had a lower level of ambition than Emerald, with many of that game's improvements being notably absent. HGSS had added much more to their base games than ORAS did to RS. And then SM came and was practically a worse XY in every way, with an early-game bordering on unplayable (literally - for the first hour or so of the game, you're not playing very much), environments that felt kinda samey, linear, and cramped, and with none of the postgame. USUM added a little of that ambition back, but also retained some of the massive flaws of SM, and compared to what Platinum and BW2 added to their regions, USUM is a joke.

But now we're on the Switch! Surely that must mean a ... step ... up- ... oh.

Given the scope of many previous titles in the franchise, the capabilities of the hardware, the state of the art in videogames, and the lessons that could be learned from 20 years of making this series, Sword and Shield are awful. Its flaws are well-documented elsewhere. What stings the most isn't the quality of the games per se, it's the quality compared to what could reasonably be expected. It just hits all the wrong marks, and not nearly enough of the right ones. All while the rest of the industry continues to evolve and present games that improve between entries rather than this insistent stagnation in old tropes. I think it's entirely reasonable to consider Sword and Shield the worst games in the series starting in the GBA era. By this point, they should have known what they were doing. Perhaps they do, but the stuff they delivered really serves to hide the fact.

 

[Adeleine]

i'll contribute to the unpopular opinions re: ranking!

Counting paired games as one, I view (non-DLC!) SWSH as a borderline top 5 best game in the series. I will explain why.

Tier 1 (unordered except B2W2 at the top): B2W2, Emerald, Platinum. These placements not really controversial.
Tier 2 (unordered): Everything not somewhere else. Pick two of SWSH, RS, SM, and maybe BW/HGSS to round out the top 5.
Others: DP, RBY, GSC, USUM. Think DP is worse. Agree with Coda on not ranking RBY/GSC. Don't want to deal with USUM ideas of sepration and derivativeness.

If you talked about some of my earlier posts, I talked about what I considered some core and peripheral parts of the franchise. Here are some unordered parts of a Pokemon game that I consider to be core experience:

1) New and Available Pokemon. In all of design, concept, and "being at least interesting or cool in battle", the body of new and available Pokemon should be good and not bad.
2) Characters. Rivals, Boss Trainers, and other NPCs should have life and make players care about them, and ideally not just because they're a funny type of flat character.
3) Ambience. What does it feel like traveling around routes? Popping around cities? Being in climactic end-game areas?
4) Music. Self-explanatory.
5) Progression. Let's not beat around the bush. All mainline Pokemon games, including B2W2 challenge mode, are easy. But does the game throw an overpowered Pokemon at you so early on that progression feels unneeded? Or does a level curve make it devolve into an easy but dull grindfest?
6) Online play. Obviously not a thing for some games, but I think it's evolved to become a core part now.
7) Making your team the VeryBest. Breeding, shiny-hunting, catching good IV/nature Pokemon, making Pokemon competitive-ready, etc.
8) New stuff. What does this game do that previous ones don't?

I think SWSH does excellently at 4 of these, succeeds adequately at 3, and does not succeed at 1.

Pokemon: Excellent. With the notable exception of the starters and legends, which I think are "fine" besides Thwackey (which must perish) and Eternatus (which is amazing), SWSH's new Pokemon set is inspired. Tons of unique Pokemon that are great and pop, like Dragapult, Falinks, Toxtricity, Dracovish, Duraludon, and Grimmsnarl. New Pokemon that save old concepts from the ugly or bad past, like Alcremie and Orbeetle. Funny Pokemon that have merit besides just being funny, like Cramorant and Morpeko. Regional forms like Sirfetch'd, Obstagoon, Perrserker, and Runerigus that, by and large, equal or surpass the originals. Dexit is obviously a thing many people care about, but the body of old Pokemon you can get within SWSH itself is excellent, too.

Music: Excellent. I've played HGSS and X/Y. I listen to their soundtracks out-of-game far more than SWSH's. Why is SWSH excellent to me, then? Instead of having as many individual tracks that are amazing in isolation, SWSH music is always and consistently there to set the pace and give you something to smile about. When I'm doing random stuff in HGSS that isn't, like, fighting Ho-Oh or being in Violet City, I often forget about the music. When I'm doing random stuff in SWSH, the music actually makes me stop and think "wow, this is contributing to the experience". Kinda hard to explain what I meant, but I tried.

Online Play and VeryBestTeamming: Excellent. I'm not super into these things, but I've consistently heard good-to-great things from the people who do care, so that's a good sign. Maybe, like, Dynamax is more detrimental to BSS than I thought, though, so who knows.

Characters: Fine. Leon did not feel like a rando! The Elite 4 didn't feel like randos because they didn't exist! Unlike Hau, I cared about Hop's development "arc". Most people seem to be able to find 2-3 gym leaders they like (Piers, Opal, and Bea for me). Marnie is cool. Ball Guy! They brought the not-nice rival back, which is something a lot of people seemed to really care about, and they did him way more compellingly than Silver!

Progression: Fine. Removing XP share was silly, but I wouldn't say the game was enormously easier than SM or whatever. Not an A+ but like it's fine.

New Stuff: Fine. SWSH is not the ambitious game ever. Like, by a lot. But I thought Dynamax was an excellent and targeted addition to the single-player campaign. (It's ofc terrible for standard 6v6 though) Megas are cool. Cooler than Dynamax. But they did not make my experience playing through XY that much better! Best-case scenario, I have a no-drawback button to click that lets me blow away entire teams and never expires in battle. That's kinda silly. Worst-case scenario, I get a volume of "is breaking the mold!" messages from Mega Ampharos that I will not soon forget. Dynamax both made boss battles considerably more hype (and even occasionally intimidating), was actually used by basically all the boss trainers, and didn't reduce the whole game to curb-stomping like Megas did. People say that GF hasn't learned lessons from the past, which oftentimes have merit, but the Mega->Z-Move->Dmax progression shows clear learning for me that ended up at a good point. Also the Wild Area is cool. Yes, the kind of cool that eventually expires, but it's still cool.

Ambience: Not Great. This is the core area where I think Galar failed most. Linear and unexciting routes are part of that, but people don't like Kalos routes and I'd rate that region's ambience extremely highly. I don't feel like the "Galar spirit" coalesced much, and when it did, it was around Dynamax. I didn't explain this one super much, but I imagine most people won't disagree.

"Why aren't HGSS and BW shoo-ins over SWSH?" HGSS to me is just... missing a lot of the fun. Whether it's bleh regional Pokemon, bleh routes, bleh music that isn't the good good music, bleh level curve... SWSH can feel too breezy, but HGSS can just make me wonder why I'm playing it sometimes. It's not that its bad or unfun, and it definitely has strengths (ambience, standout tracks, content), but sometimes it's just not as fun as I'd expect for what I spend my fun Pokemon-playing time on, and there usually isn't depth that compensates for that. SWSH also doesn't have depth, but it doesn't share most of these flaws (aside from its routes, which are worse).

BW? It's really about the Pokemon, dude, and that you're locked into them. Like, SWSH is also a flawed game, and it definitely lacks certain strengths that BW has, but I don't see its flaws as nearly as detractive as being forced to use only the Unova dex. I understand Pokemon quality, design, etc. is subjective, but all of this game-ranking business is, and I am ready to defend my position on the Unova dex with thought-out reasoning till the day I die. If I felt this strongly about BW's music instead of its Pokemon, I'd say it's better than SWSH for sure. But "Pokemon" is a kind of integral flaw to the experience of a Pokemon game.

Ending note: "But SWSH has had seven generations of Pokemon before it? Shouldn't we expect more?" Plat had three generations of Pokemon before it, more than enough time to not be derivative, and it's still derivative like all Pokemon games are. I just see stagnation as the price we pay for a consistently good formula and a usually good collectable monster set. If I didn't, I'd be lowering my opinion of all of these games (besides RBY obviously), not just SWSH.

 

[Ironmage]

7) Making your team the VeryBest. Breeding, shiny-hunting, catching good IV/nature Pokemon, making Pokemon competitive-ready, etc.

Online Play and VeryBestTeamming: Excellent. I'm not super into these things, but I've consistently heard good-to-great things from the people who do care, so that's a good sign. Maybe, like, Dynamax is more detrimental to BSS than I thought, though, so who knows.

I would consider the experience of making teams and trying them out to be the reason I hang around pokemon games. As such, what I think of as Swsh's failure to provide a good experience of this is the primary reason I chose not to play it. Sure, it's easier to make a team optimized. But to what end? I neither have the ability to make the teams I want to in the first place thanks to the removals, nor a good place to use them by myself. Sure, I'd get higher results for the same effort online, but I find results less valuable than doing something cool, and that part got harder.

 

[p0ip0le]

bandwagon time

1. platinum, b2w2, sm
plat fixed the glaring issues that dp had (type variety being shite, slow surfing, etc) and made the story better. b2w2 built on a good storyline and made it better while also not relying too much on the "bw sequel" and adding new shit. SM has The best storyline for a mainseries pokemon game with notable characters and good pokemon design, and made things more challenging for casual players without going overboard.

2. usum
has a better postgame than most other games and also poipole is in it. the only reason it isnt in the 1 spot with SM is because lusamine's entire character got reworked and is just less engaging than it was in SM

3. hgss, bw
hgss is pretty fuckin open-world for a pokemon game and i feel it does this better than swsh which has... "big open areas but you're still going in a straight line" but it didn't really... add much to gsc. bw slaps but the lack of variety in things that are usable really kill replayability for me

4. dp, xy
dp: see platinum. most of what i remember of XY is that it was easy but im also replaying it after 7 years and i barely got anywhere so this might change

5. oras
character designs being updated was absolutely BALLER but other than that theres just... nothing really notable about it.

6. frlg
i shouldnt even have to explain my thinking here

the rest: rby, gsc, rse, swsh
haven't played rby or gsc, rse is just a weak game all around (hoenn is just a RECTANGLE), swsh has good pokemon designs and memorable characters but bad region design

--

also people who think bede/hop/marnie are just discount gladion/hau/lillie are weak and their bloodline will die off

 

[Siggu]

Well... if I've got to make a list...

S: It should surprise no one at this point that my favourite generation in terms of games is the fifth. From the "only new mons" approach and a surprisingly good story of BW1, to the overall great experience of BW2, I can't not put them at the top. Platinum is also here because of how much of a huge improvement it is to DP, and it started what I think was the greatest batch of Pokémon games from a technical standpoint.

A: Two games that I appreciate them for the things they added or the things they fixed. Emerald mixes the plot of Ruby and Sapphire quite well, and it's the game with the greatest focus on double battles (not counting spin-offs), which should be the standard. Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon are the only Pokémon games with an engaging difficulty and they have a long post-game and more side-content than it looks like on a first glance.

B: Long list, so I'll have to separate things.
- Gold, Silver, Crystal, HeartGold, and SoulSilver are all very good games that unfortunately have some serious flaws that the latter three games didn't bother to fix. That being said, I think HGSS has the best interface of all the DS/3DS Pokémon games, the maps look really nice, and it includes the improvements made in Platinum.
- If I'd have to mention a common problem for Ruby, Sapphire, Omega Ruby, and Alpha Sapphire, is that they wanted to give the same story events to two teams with opposite goals. Emerald fixes this by making their decisions a bit of sense but, come the remakes, they are again copy-pastes with different characters.

Normally, I'd put HGSS and ORAS below their original versions because they stick too much with the idea of being remakes, but they have good stand-out traits of their own to put them on the same tier.

- Sun and Moon are just flat-out inferior to USUM. The characterization might be better, but that's just a bonus, and not strong enough of a factor to place them in a better position.
- Sword and Shield are weird. On one hand, we have the greatest QoL leap since BW2, and that's enough to put it on B. It also introduces some really nice Pokémon designs. On the other hand, we have the Dexit, subpar looks, open-world areas, some performance issues, and what are by far the worst legendaries ever in the cover, so it can't move anywhere forward.

C: Red and Blue are only saved from going to D tier because of the charm they have as a glitchy mess. Apart from that, I would never recommend them over the Let's GO games, which is actually a really nice experiment all things considered. Diamond and Pearl... uhm... well, they are a slog to play, they have a terrible Dex distribution, a terrible wild Pokémon distribution (some new Pokémon flat-out can't be caught without using the DS slot), and whenever the game's mechanics are not slow, then the pacing is.

D: FireRed and LeafGreen are a fixed Red and Blue. That's it, that's all they have, so they make for a shockingly dull experience. Yellow is a less openly glitchy Red and Blue with one of the worst level curves in the series, and it's just not different enough from the base game compared to other entries.

???: Well... I haven't played X or Y yet. I could download a ROM to my hacked New 3DS, but I need a new battery and those things are difficult to find where I live.

 

[pokemon4eva]

Pokemon games tier list, go!

S: -Kinda awkward putting the whole DS era on S in an unpopular opinions thread and sometimes mentioning their flaws here, but I love these games. I prefer gen 5 over 4 for how much the former for how well it executes the traditional Pokemon tropes (rivals, evil team, gym leaders, CONTENT, etc.) over any other game. Also, having a sequel game over an enhanced version was easily one of the best decisions to make us buy the next Unova game and it's sad they haven't done it again ever since....

-Sinnoh was the region of myths, with the story and legendary Pokemon representing that very well. The feeling of this mysterious region, the glorious return of the day-night cycle, and probably the most fair and well developed difficulty in the series, Platinum is a must have for fans. HGSS doesn't stay behind either, delivering the Johto experience better than ever with very rich content to spend lots of time with it.

A: -Gen 7 overall felt like a refreshing change of pace in a similar way like BW, I love the atmosphere, the regional forms and new mechanics, the surprisingly endearing journey and characters, the stronger bosses, how Z moves are handled, the fact they will (unfortunately...) remain as the main games with the highest amount of programmed mons. Even with its flaws, these game gave me hope for the future of the franchise.

-The Hoenn games, ORAS and Emerald, one excels in some aspect better than the other and viceversa so I put them close. Hoenn is awesome, a size bigger than both Kanto and Johto combined, the ecosystem variety, the newly added Pokemon, etc.

B: -I AM CONSIDERING SWSH WITH THE DLC ADDED, IF NOT, C TIER. Saying ANYTHING about this game rustled anyone's jimmies lol whether it's praising something or criticizing it, no wonder with the bogus decisions it took. The dexit, the always-on exp share, the near-unexisting plot, etc. With that being said, SwSh does greatly in what it excels, the characters felt very charismatic, raid battles and max adventures are a fun addition for multiplayer, the roster is as strong as ever, the overworld encounters, the wild areas, help making this game a worthwhile experience.

- FRLG...these games are the most needed remakes of the franchise since the originals are very dated, and it's nice to replay the Kanto experience with the new additions that gen 3 introduced, while adding some of its own like the VS Seeker and Sevii Islands. However, this game souldn't be as restrcitive to play, I wanna have a Crobat for my journey but the game doesn't let you have mons from other gens until you became champ, HGSS and ORAS don't do any of these so it's fair to assume that this was a mistake. There's no notable addition to the story nor characters, something that the other 2 remakes actually do. Also, the sevii islands postgame, for a player that doesn't bother fiiling the dex and finding out that you need to catch 60 mons to proceed, this was tedious...

- The og Johto games, despite HGSS exisiting I don't feel they haven't aged as badly as their predecessors. Johto might be small but it has a lot of charm and inspiration of a classic jrpg. However, it has my least favorite roster, not really bad but many of them felt uninspired, and it doesn't help that Kanto gets the better end of the stick in terms of availability while even some of the Johto newcomers don't appear UNTIL KANTO!

C: I don't really have to say much here since everything that RS and DP did was done better by their enhanced versions. The base games still introduced the region, main plot, mon roster, etc. so that can't be ignored either. The 'obvious beta' status really showed, though...

D: - I know the franchise as a whole might give a vibe of wasted potential, but no game represents that more than X and Y. After the twists and execution of gen 5, coming back to the exact same formula, a weak cast, a notably lower difficulty, and no fun features to do after you are done with the main story, felt like a complete downgrade. I say wasted potential because the themes presented (ancient wars, perfection, friendship in jeopardy, genocide...) felt very mishandled all to preserve the status quo of the usual Pokemon journey. Also, the smallest roster of new Pokemon, which is dissimulated with the high number of Pokemon available from other regions.

- RBY. I don't want to be too harsh to them since they started it all but man, how outdated they feel today...That being said, it really shows the charactheristic level design the main games will apply in the future, teaching you the basic mechanics without he need of tutorials (lost against Brock? cool, try again but exploit his weaknesses, don't attack while he using Bide, etc.) and I commend them for that. Which is something that I can't say for...

F: This is Pokemon Yellow Training Wheels edition used to grab the GO audience, failing both as a recreation of the nostalgic Kanto with all the easy pandering and debutind the dreaded always-on exp share; AND as a modern Pokemon experience that supposed to introduce the current mechanics and Pokemon to the older game, and give a new spin to the plot, all of which LGPE didn't even bother aside from just downgrading from the previous remake (we go from a restricted Pokemon availability to them just not even being in the game at all), and the original games. Just...which was this game's intended audience?

 

[Suspicious Derivative]

This is true, but I do not think the initial hate for 6 or 7 was comparable in severity to the storms that initially surrounded gen5 and gen8.

That's what I was trying to say, but you said it better than me. Thank you!
As for the hate towards Gen 5 vs Gen 8, I think it was worse for Gen 8. From what I remember, it did not feel like almost everyone in the fandom was hating on B/W in the same way as it felt for S/S. So I'd say the Gen 8 hate was worse. But that's just my memory, and it has been almost 10 years since the English release of B/W at this point, so I'm unsure.

While I'm here, I also wanted to say some things on other topics.

Reasons for playing the games
I should have said this yesterday, but forgot about it. Anyway. Personally, I play Pokémon more for the post-game than for the main game. When I play the games, I generally spend 80-90% of my playtime in the post-game. I never restart my games anymore because doing so would mean I would lose way too much, such as completed Pokédexes, completed minigames, completed Battle Facilities... and much, much more. One reason I always bought both games from all pairs in the past was so I could play through the main game twice instead of just once. But also so I could play through the post-game twice. If I wanted to replay the main game of an older game nowadays, I would be forced to buy an extra copy of that game in order to do so. However, I can easily play through Sword again if I want to since I can just create another savefile without getting rid of my first one. But right now, I don't want to. And I'm not sure if I ever will do it either.

R/B/Y vs. FR/LG
Don't know if this is unpopular, but I prefer FR/LG. I think they were great remakes that improved upon several key issues with R/B/Y, notably the Sevii Islands which added a more substantial post-game, and the VS. Seeker which made training easy. I don't care much for the glitches in R/B/Y, they were never a reason I played those games. If anything, I'm happy they no longer exist in FR/LG. On the whole, I consider FR/LG to be the best Kanto games that currently exists, and they will be so for all eternity forward unless Game Freak decides to do things properly again the next time they remake Kanto.

Quality decline of the games
I agree with Codraroll that the games were mostly going forward up to Gen 5, and that they have been mostly going downhill since then. However, I still like most of the games after Gen 5. They are not perfect, but they are still good and fun to play despite their flaws. That said, I am unsure about continuing with Pokémon after Sword. Dexit was a very huge blow for me, and if this really is the future of the franchise, I might quit the series very soon. A general loss of interest in Pokémon combined with a current burnout doesn't really help either.

Ranking the main series games
This is something I have wanted to do for a long while, but I have never gotten a good opportunity to it here on the forums. So I am very happy about this discussion being brought to life in this thread! Here are my rankings:

Generations Rank:
5 > 6 > 7 > 4 > 8 > 3 > 1 > 2

Games rank:
B/W = B2/W2 > X/Y > OR/AS > US/UM > Platinum> S/S (with DLC) > S/M > D/P > Emerald > R/S = FR/LG > Crystal > R/B > G/S > Yellow > HG/SS
Unranked: LGP/LGE (haven't played them)
I haven't played Shield either, but I decided to include it alongside Sword anyway.

Or if you prefer an image:

And here are some short explanations as for why. I did not write anything super long because I am not in the mood to do so right now. Plus I'm tired and I really need a screen-break after this.

1. B/W and B2/W2 are my favorite Pokémon games, and some of my overall favorite video games. When it comes to what I consider important in Pokémon games, they did almost everything right and next to nothing wrong. They had a large number of Pokémon that they actually focused on, really great gameplay, an amazing region, and a lot of content: B2/W2 has the most in the entire series and B/W are tied with D/P as the best of the first pairs. The Gen 5 games gave me the most fun I have ever had with Pokémon. I feel that the series was never this good before, and it hasn't been this good at any point afterwards either.

2. X/Y are my second favorites. I love them too, just not quite as much as the Gen 5 games. Last year, I wrote a long post with everything I like about them and why I don't consider their issues to be all that problematic, so I'll just leave you with that.

3. OR/AS are next. Maybe they weren't as impressive as HG/SS on first glance. Maybe they don't have an entire second region to explore during the post-game, or a full Battle Frontier. But at the same time, they aren't filled to the brim with massively gamebreaking gameplay issues and poorly executed features. I think they have amazing gameplay and they improved upon the originals in some important aspects too. I think they are really amazing and the best remakes so far in terms of actual games. Epic training spots is a feature not many Pokémon games have, but it is very important for me and the few games that do have it will almost automatically get a high rank on my list. Still, I won't deny that OR/AS have some issues, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives by far.

4. Then we have US/UM. I won't deny that there are two things S/M did better. But in comparison, there are at least 10 things US/UM do better, and those 10 are way more important to me than the ones in S/M (hint: I don't consider story to be very important in Pokémon games anymore). If anything, I think the Rotom Dex's endless babbling is a bigger issue. Still, these games had many major and minor improvements over S/M in so many other areas, they also have the third most content in the series. Things like new Pokémon, new Z-moves, a new minigame or something as minor as being able to obtain all Mega Stones without events... those things are way more important to me than "story". Plus, US/UM also kept many of the things that were great with S/M to start with, such as Poké Pelago, Pokémon Refresh and the Battle Tree. While I still think they could have done even more and better improvements, the things they did was enough for me.

5. Platinum was a great improvement over D/P. It has really great gameplay, the second most content in the series and many great features. I think it is the best 4th Gen game and best the Sinnoh game without a doubt. I just don't like it quite as much as the above games, and it didn't feel all that new either since 80% of it was the same as in D/P. And I think the biggest issue it has is that while it is good at everything, it isn't really the best at anything. Still a great game though.

6. S/S are this high only because of the DLC. Without it, they would be tied with S/M. But why were they so high to start with? Because I honestly had tons of fun with Sword (which is the only one I have played). I won't deny that it has a lot of issues, but I was able to have lots of fun with it despite them. I also had pretty low expectations on it after the announcement of dexit, and Sword not only lived up to my expectations, but it even surpassed them! Then the DLC came around and built on the base game instead of making it obsolete, adding more content, new features, new Pokémon (and brought back old ones too) making the game a lot more enjoyable. Still, I think the flaws are annoying. Apart from dexit I think the biggest one is the Battle Tower nerfs. But I can't deny that I had a ton of fun with Sword. If I won't get any more new Pokémon games after it, at least I can leave the series on a mostly positive note.

7. S/M are among the games I consider obsolete, because I find US/UM to be superior to them in every important way. I have no reason to go back to S/M when US/UM exists. And unlike for S/S, I had sky-high expectations for them, which they unfortunately did not live up to, making them a bit disappointing in retrospect. I also find them to have a lot more fundamental issues in terms of gameplay compared to most other modern games, the most notable is the lack of training spots. Training Pokémon in S/M was the biggest chore it has been since HG/SS. Still, I think S/M were fun for their time and they were my first Gen 7 games, I can't deny that I had a lot of fun with them during 2016-17.

8. D/P are next. If S/M are the D/P of Gen 7, then that would make D/P the S/M of Gen 4, right?. Similarly to S/M, they have some serious issues and are obsolete because of another game (in this case, it is obviously Platinum). But they were still very fun for their time, had many great new features, and are tied with B/W as the first pairs with the most content in the series. But like with S/M, I can't see any good reason to go back to them nowadays.

9. Then we have Emerald. Yes, I like the Battle Frontier. But I do not consider it to be the absolute best or single most important feature in the series. And since that's all Emerald has to offer which I can't get in any other game, I can't rank it higher than this. Still, it was tons of fun for its time and it was an improvement over R/S. It is also the single game in the series I have put the most time in, the playtime for my Emerald cart is at over 900 hours. But I also find Emerald to be mostly obsolete because of OR/AS.

10. Continuing with Hoenn, R/S are next. Those games were also very fun for their time, had several new fun features, soild enough gameplay and felt way more modern than the Gen 1-2 games. However, they have a very lackluster post-game, and they are also obsolete nowadays. I have no reason to play them anymore because of OR/AS.

11. After them, it is time for FR/LG. As I explained earlier, I like them. I think they are good games and good remakes too since they fixed several issues with R/B/Y. I consider them to be the best Pokémon remakes in terms of remakeness (improvement over the originals). They still have some issues though, the regional dex being so restrictive was unnecessary, and the lack of a real Battle Facility hurts the post-game a bit.

12. And now we're getting close to the bottom. Next up (or rather next down lololol) is Crystal. The best of the worst. The Johto games are my least favorites, but Crystal is my favorite Johto game and my favorite game from all of Gen 1-2. It improved upon some things with G/S and made Johto a little more fun, which the remakes unfortunately did not keep. G/S/C also had a certain atmosphere to them which I felt that HG/SS did not keep or replace with something better. I liked Crystal. It also had the first Battle Tower in the series. Suicune is also my favorite Johto legendary. Still, it is Johto, and that means it has all of the gameplay issues the Johto games come with. That said, I prefer it over any other Johto game.

13. Next in line are R/B. I like them better than Yellow for a few reasons. The most notable is that they do not force you to start with Pikachu. Blue was also my first game. However, I consider them outdated I'd much rather play FR/LG nowadays.

14. G/S were not as good as Crystal, but still fun for their time. But it is Johto, and thus it ranks pretty low for me. Not sure what else to say here lol.

15. Yellow had better front sprites than R/B, it also allowed you to get all three starters without trade, and it made some interesting changes to the Pokémon distribution. However, I disliked being forced to start with Pikachu and I never cared much for the other anime references. Some of them also changed the gameplay experience for the worse.. Yellow was still fun for its time though, but I liked R/B more. And nowadays, I prefer FR/LG.

16. HG/SS are my least favorite Pokémon games. In case you didn't know already. I don't feel like going into another long explanation about why, so I'll just say this: the massive gameplay issues as well as the lackluster and poorly exectured content and post-game made them the only main series games I never really had fun with. I do not even consider them fun for their time, which I can at least say for all other Pokémon games I have played.

17. Last and least, LGP/E. I haven't played them so I won't rank them, but I don't think I would enjoy them very much. They feel like a step down from not only FR/LG, but also R/B/Y in some aspects, so I don't think they would rank very high.

That's my list. I know that some of my rankings are unpopular for sure, others probably less so. This was fun to write and I am very happy to get all of this out of my head.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I can't use that freaking Tiermaker thing. Just can't find the button to add more tiers, must be the lack of glasses.

So anyway:

GOAT: Platinum.
Add another tier cause it ain't even close.

A - Emerald, BW2.
B - BW1, HGSS, XY, ORAS.
C - Crystal, GS, RBY
D - DP and RS. They ain't bad, but there's really no reason to not play Plat or Emerald instead.

From here on, the games get Baddy Bad.

E - FRLG.
F - SwSh, SM.
G - Brawl Ganondorf.
H - Doing a Wynaut solo run.
Bottom - USUM.

 

[Yung Dramps]

oh cool we're just doing a tier list thread now k then time to dump my opinions before a mod comes in to shut things down

...Yeah I think I got some explaining to do with a few of these picks

Kings: These two have everything I want in a Pokemon game: Amazing regions, fun characters with lots of charm and personality, cool beans Pokemon selection (even though I'm not the biggest fan of the Hoenn dex the Megas are cool to use because you can actually use all of them cough cough XY). Underrated gems that do not deserve even a shred of the hate they get.

Princes: Everybody knows why BW2 and Platinum are good, no need to explain why other than I don't think they're quite as good as the top 2, Platinum still has iffy game speed and the final part of the game is a big-ass drag while BW2 is still saddled with the OG's stale-ass writing (will elaborate later). SWSH meanwhile succeeds way better at XY's whole shtick of having an insanely varied in-game roster and while the story has some very obvious writing holes as well as just being generally too short but I still think it has moments that really shine. There's also the matter of crappy route design which ties back to the whole "too short" problem. I don't got the DLCs but I doubt they would change my opinion of the game that much, they're well-made but most of their content additions seem more gravitated towards multiplayer with their single-player bits being a tad too short to justify me bumming out an extra 30 bucks.

Knights: The middle of the road tier. XY is one that doesn't require a lot of explanation, everybody knows its deep fundamental flaws just like everyone knows why Platinum and BW2 are good, and I don't even think it does the "massive Pokedex" thing all that well because of how it overshadows the new Pokemon. Now, BW1 on the other hand? It's my most recently revisited game, and simply put, I don't get it. At least with BW2 it has a ton of cool stuff to where I can say "ok, this is someone's favorite game, that computes", but this? I mean, it's hardly a bad game by any stretch, but it just feels kinda hollow to me. A big example is the writing, I find this game's plot and themes vastly overrated and general and all the dialogue feels like by-the-numbers pseudo-philosophical rants, like something a 6th grade would write for a book report. Unlike the SWSH DLCs or ORAS it doesn't seem to really have fun with itself or just be genuinely enaging in its own right. I also think the gen 5 roster is insanely hit or miss with most of the hits being far too late in the game to be used in a playthrough. Finally, I honestly find the game kinda ugly? The graphics and battle backgrounds feel very drab to me, BW2 had brighter colors and just generally superior, more visually interesting locations (not that bw1 lacks those, Castelia City ftw, but yeah).

Pawn: Pearl holds a special place in my heart as my first mainline Pokemon game ever. It's also a gimped piece of crap with trash boss design and AI, overrated bland characters (Barry literally doesn't have an arc and Cyrus sucks), miserable performance and many of the new Pokemon locked off for no good fucking reason. Nostalgia can't save this game, and even if Platinum didn't exist it still wouldn't be anything special, no way in hell it'd be regarded as one of the franchise's best outings if that were the case.

Peasant: SM but insanely worse in every way aside from some garbage postgame, and it's not just the story. If I had to be objective it'd probably be like b tier but it's the principle of being a generally worse "third version" in a time where DLC is standard that makes me put it down below even GO DP. For more info click here

 

[Sceptilian70]

I think that tier lists are unnecessary. All of the games were good in different ways, and be honest (I'm one of these people) some of the high-tier stuff, like DPPt, is probably just nostalgia. It's the reason I still (for some reason) like Ruby, but now I like the Gen 6 remakes more, 'cause they're better.

I felt that USUM were great. I only had one big problem: THAT THEY EXIST.

Now don't get me wrong, I love USUM; I just felt that having a partner game that had a lot more fun stuff to do was kind of bogus, especially being released a year after the first one. The Mega Stones being bought normally with BP like everything else, the Ultra Beasts being obtainable multiple times, an easier-to-find and easier-to-catch Necrozma, and also a butt-ton of other stuff made SM feel obsolete way to quickly. Even the minimal addition of Zeraora and Poipole made SM go pale. I mean, who doesn't love them?


I would say that Pokemon did get steadily better as the series went on, and having no nostalgia for the older games, I can say that the new Gens are way way way better. The Wild Area made me happy, as it perfectly combines a turn-based, linear RPG with an open-world adventure with monsters to fight and people to defeat. it made it feel big. The new Shiny mechanics made postgame better, and by postgame I don't really mean story; I just mean the ability to come back to that game and still do something.

When I was playing that original Ruby cartridge, I felt like it was such a big world to be in such a small cartridge. When I got to the E4, I stopped, realized I was underleveled, and just adventured around. That was fun. But in my new, exactly-the-same Ruby cartridge I did beat E4. And when I did, nothing happened. NOTHING. Suddenly there was no gameplay, no Shiny Hunting (Soft Resetting is not a legit postgame or any-game for that matter) and the Battle Tower was boring and really hard. I think the new games improved postgame a lot, giving whole new adventures like the Dynamax Adventures and overall Crown Tundra. It's way more fun.

 

[Codraroll]

When I was playing that original Ruby cartridge, I felt like it was such a big world to be in such a small cartridge. When I got to the E4, I stopped, realized I was underleveled, and just adventured around. That was fun. But in my new, exactly-the-same Ruby cartridge I did beat E4. And when I did, nothing happened. NOTHING. Suddenly there was no gameplay, no Shiny Hunting (Soft Resetting is not a legit postgame or any-game for that matter) and the Battle Tower was boring and really hard. I think the new games improved postgame a lot, giving whole new adventures like the Dynamax Adventures and overall Crown Tundra. It's way more fun.

Yeah, RS just run into a full stop once you've beaten the Elite Four. There's the Battle Tower, sure, but it's about ten steps up in difficulty compared to normal gameplay, while not being very rewarding (you need a win streak of 35 to get anything better than Vitamins). This definitely was before they realized the games needed some sort of long-term gameplay for those who didn't want to put their lovingly trained Pokémon away as soon as they reached the end credits, but who weren't hardcore players either. At least there were Contests to play with, but the games lacked longevity.

And, well, hence Emerald. It had a solid postgame. DP took away the Battle Frontier again, but it had a whole big postgame area (and a small one too, next to Victory Road). Despite the lack of varied battle facilities, one could say more was added than taken away.

But at some point, it's as if Game Freak realized that if they removed features from the previous games when making the base games, they could be added back in the follow-up games, giving those a selling point without the designers having to come up with anything new.

That's the big sin of USUM to me. Sun and Moon are intentionally stripped of features so they could be added back to USUM. Possibly except the Necrozma plot (which was handled so seamlessly, or what ...), almost everything in USUM could and should have been in SM. It's not like they forget how to add BP and tutors and whatnot when making a new generation, or forget why they make the games better. It's just that the removal of them from the base games lets the follow-up games have an effortless selling point. Just copy over the code from the previous games, they all run on the same codebase anyway.

The level of ambition has taken a nosedive, it seems. Each new generation features a new region and new Pokémon, but is otherwise bare-bones. The next games add bells and whistles. Said bells and whistles are then taken away in the next games, so they can be added back to the ones after. Even as technology progresses, the hardware gets better, and the games industry continues to out-do itself, the Pokémon games have two levels of ambitions they cycle between and are otherwise very formulaic about their features. The longer they continue on that path while the rest of the industry evolves, the worse the games will feel compared to the standards of the industry. "Ruby/Sapphire but with more Pokémon and more advanced graphics" is not the goal the Pokémon games should be aiming for in the 2020s. Yet here we are, genuinely discussing whether the state-of-the-art console games hold up to the level of games released for the GameBoy Advance. That's a rather depressing discussion to have.

 

[Worldie]

It's not like they forget how to add BP and tutors and whatnot when making a new generation, or forget why they make the games better. It's just that the removal of them from the base games lets the follow-up games have an effortless selling point. Just copy over the code from the previous games, they all run on the same codebase anyway.

mh mh, I'd point that the Tutor removal isnt likely to "remove to add later", rather it's done for VGC variety (I'm also still surprised some of the historical Tutors/TMs like Roost or Tailwind have not come back with Crown Tundra)
Rest, yeh, it's possible they were just planning to do their "we take stuff out so we can surprise you when they come back" which sadly they think it works.
Does that mean that next Pokemon games will give us back a real battle facility?

 

[Codraroll]

mh mh, I'd point that the Tutor removal isnt likely to "remove to add later", rather it's done for VGC variety (I'm also still surprised some of the historical Tutors/TMs like Roost or Tailwind have not come back with Crown Tundra)

I don't think I buy that argument. They started doing it as far back as DP, when VGC was not a big concern. Most of the tutored moves also had next to no VGC impact. Shock Wave, Low Kick, Bug Bite, Fire Punch ... hardly metagame-defining moves. They were great to have access to in-game, but only a very small minority of them had any VGC impact.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

"Adding features to remove them later" has practically always been their modus operandi since forever. They have always held off on move tutors until the third versions/expansion pass (in Sword and Shield's case).

It wasn't quite as obvious with DP and BW1, granted DP in and of itself was already a solid experience. DP already had a great post-game to begin with, with the Battle Zone and a few routes/dungeons such as the Snowpoint Temple and Turnback Cave to explore. Plus a mini-quest in the Battle Zone surrounding Heatran. BW1 had a post-game surrounding eastern Unova, Cynthia as a bonus superboss, and upgraded E4 rematches.

But I wouldn't say the post-game in recent generations has been worse or as bad as in RS. RS was pretty barebones, as is well-established, and Emerald added the Battle Frontier for a great post-game.

What I'd say is that the level of postgame content has always been pretty good and better than RS, but the approach to what the post-game is is pretty different.

The DS era's postgames focused a lot on exploration. Sinnoh had the Battle Zone and bonus dungeons to explore, plus a bunch of legendaries to catch. HGSS took from GSC and had the entire Kanto region, plus adding even more to it with more bonus legendary Pokemon and an upgraded Elite Four. BW1 had all of Eastern Unova to explore, plus a few more legendary Pokemon, while BW2 had all of BW1's early routes to go back to, more legendaries, and some bonus dungeons.

The 3DS era games have less to explore but focused more on having stories to experience. XY's postgame was, in my opinion, actually pretty solid, but it feels barebones because it doesn't have a whole lot to explore after defeating the Champion. It was a very different type of post-game, where it instead had a post-game story arc. In other words, basically the Looker post-game quest involving Emma/Essentia. That was a pretty compelling story arc and Emma was a very good character, and it took you all around Lumiose in the process. There was also the two post-game fine dining restaurants for a bit of grinding as well as more from the Battle Chateau if you were into that. I guess there's also backtracking to hunt down the Mega Stones too, as well as the Legendary birds and Mewtwo. When you look at it, and having experienced said post-game, it's actually not too bad, even if it could be a bit better.

ORAS meanwhile had a post-game story arc as well in the form of the Delta episode. USUM improved SM's postgame in that it had the Team Rainbow Rocket story arc for people to experience. And to be honest, the Rainbow Rocket story arc was really great and fun to go through! SM itself had a Looker quest hunting down the Ultra Beasts. Both ORAS and USUM had all the legendaries to hunt down, but not in the same way that BW2 or Gen 4 did.

The base game of Sword and Shield had their post-game be pretty much what the 3DS games were, basically a mini story arc surrounding Zacian and Zamazenta plus a pair of weirdos. The DLC brought it closer to what the DS era postgame type was with Crown Tundra and legendary hunting, and of course a bonus superboss in IoA Mustard and stuff like the Galarian Star Tournament, daily Marnie/Klara/Avery rematches, and a whole lot to explore with Crown Tundra.

I'd personally argue that it's not so much the ambition of newer games is less than the DS games, but rather that the focus of the newer games is different. They've focused more on building a story for people to experience, even in the post-game, and the post-game content of the 3DS games is built to emphasize story. XY's Looker episode, ORAS's Delta Episode, and USUM's Rainbow Rocket arc are all prime examples of that. There's less to explore in these games, but the post-game still has stuff to offer: it's just a different type of content that they're offering. In this case, yeah they could've done more, but I really feel the 3DS era was them experimenting with actually putting in some story into the postgame and creating those kinds of arcs for people to experience after beating the Champion (or becoming the Champion, in Gen 7's case). Basically, experimenting with that aspect of the RPG formula. Of course, there's also online play if you're into that. Is that a phase? Perhaps, or perhaps not.

That's very different from the DS era postgame, where again, that was all about having more to explore. DPP had the Battle Zone and some more routes, BW1 had half the region to explore, and BW2 also had more to explore.

Now imo, I feel like a best of both worlds would be the most ideal type of postgame content to have. I think Sword and Shield has managed to do that with the DLC...except....IT'S DLC. Crown Tundra was a pretty damn good post-game content with an incredible Wild Area to explore plus Dynamax Adventures being sooo much fun to do. But in any case, I feel like the 3DS era focused on building post-game story arcs, but it did so too much to the point where they focused less on having places to explore and thus the scope feels smaller as a result. If perhaps they gave some good post-game story episodes as well as more places to explore, that could make for a thoroughly engaging post-game.

(Side note: I also would appreciate if something like Contests or Pokeathlon would come back).

I'm letting my thoughts on these flow out of my head so they're probably a mess but hopefully this gets the point across!