Case in point, Kingler and Gyarados until Gen 4
Latter was good moreso cuz good coverage, but the wasted attack hurt for stab
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(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon
- Thread starter BriarRose
- Start date
Latter was good moreso cuz good coverage, but the wasted attack hurt for stab
So, a basic summary of the types' attacks. I'm going to be looking at stuff that's non-signature, at least 80 BP, and over 60 accuracy*. I will include things with limited non-signature distribution**, but that will be specifically mentioned. I will also absolutely miss some, but I'm hoping nothing relevant.
Looking at it, there's a lot of types that have more options than I thought. And some types are much worse. Shout out to Ghost, Ground, Special Ice, Physical Fairy, and Special Dark for having exactly what is required offensively and literally nothing else. Worst types: Rock, Flying, Special Fighting, Physical Electric, Physical Ice.
To keep this on topic, why are they flying-type options so bad? When "give up your item slot" is considered a reasonable option in competitive, there's a serious problem with the type. It's not a defensive type, it's all fast frail physical attackers, and yet Brave Bird and Hurricane are the limits for decent offensive options.
*Less than 80 BP or less than 70 accuracy generally requires an ability or odd circumstances to take advantage of, making it essentially signature(Bug Bite Scizor, Dynamic Punch Golurk+Machamp, etc). Also, I'm calling Zing Zap, Sacred Fire, and similar signature bc they're more like "signature for 2 species"
**Aura Sphere etc get counted but called out bc how often do you actually expect to see that move?
Physical:
Normal: (I'm not listing these, it's twice the relevant moves of any other type. Basically, whatever you want, this type has, even if the distribution is wacky.)
Fighting: Focus Punch, HJK, Focus Blast, Close Combat, Superpower, Hammer Arm, Cross Chop, Jump Kick, Sacred Sword, Sky Uppercut, Body Press, Aura Sphere, Submission. Truly ridic physical options, including 4 at 120 bp or better. Special options are Focus Miss and the handful of mons that learn Aura Sphere, so bleh.
Flying: Sky Attack, Brave Bird, Hurricane, Fly, Bounce, Drill Peck, Acrobatics. Decent number of moves, all of them bad. Hurricane misses, Acro costs you your item, Drill Peck has limited distribution, and everything else is 2-turn. This is rough.
Poison: Belch, Gunk Shot, Sludge Wave, Sludge Bomb, Poison Jab. It has what it needs, physical and special, but nothing too odd to take advantage of.
Ground: Earthquake, High Horsepower, Earth Power, Drill Run, Dig. Has EQ and Earth Power, and therefore nothing else is relevant. Would like variety, doesn't need it.
Rock: Head Smash, Meteor Beam, Stone Edge, Power Gem. Every offensive move of this type has some reason not to use it. You can make them all work, but it's like flying, you're never satisfied with the options.
Bug: Leech Life, X-Scissor, Lunge, Bug Buzz, First Impression, Pollen Puff, Megahorn. Lots of physical variety, decent special options. No real complaints, other than the type chart.
Ghost: Poltergeist, Phantom Force, Shadow Ball. One decent move of each category, both with really good distribution. Everything else is signature, but there are a lot of signature moves. I'm not sure if we call that good or not, but it definitely doesn't have any interesting choices to make.
Steel: Steel Beam, Steel Roller, Iron Tail, Meteor Mash, Iron Head, Flash Cannon. Despite officially having options, every steel type is basically forced to run Iron Head/Flash Cannon/Gyro Ball unless they're very lucky.
Special:
Fire: Blast Burn, Eruption, Burn Up, Overheat, Flare Blitz, Inferno, Heat Wave, Flamethrower, Blaze Kick, Fire Lash, Fire Pledge, Lava Plume. Every special option you could want. Physical, there's Flare Blitz, Blaze Kick, and Fire Lash. The latter two have limited distributions, so a lot of physical fires have to be suicidal, but Flare Blitz isn't a /bad/ move.
Water: Water Spout, Hydro Cannon, Hydro Pump, Crabhammer, Aqua Tail, Muddy Water, Surf, Liquidation, Snipe Shot, Water Pledge, Scald, Dive, Waterfall. Probably the best specially offensive type in the game except maybe fire, good physical options. The type people mean when they say certain types are too good.
Grass: Frenzy Plant, Leaf Storm, Solar Blade, Wood Hammer, Power Whip, Petal Dance, Solar Beam, Petal Blizzard, Energy Ball, Grass Pledge, Seed Bomb. This is apparently the 'non-offensive' starter type. Basically has every physical and special offense option you could ask for.
Electric: Discharge, Thunderbolt, Wild Charge, Thunder. Decent special coverage, a single outright bad physical option. It's notable that there's a lot of signature Electric Physical moves, likely bc they know they have to give any notable physical electric type something if they want it to be used.
Psychic: Synchronoise, Future Sight, Dream Eater, Psychic, Psychic Fangs, Eerie Spell, Expanding Force, Psyshock, Zen Headbutt, Extrasensory. Lots of odd special options, decent physical options.
Ice: Blizzard, Ice Beam, Icicle Crash. Basic special options with great distribution, one very meh physical option that not much gets. Not good.
Dragon: Dual Chop, Dragon Claw, Dragon Pulse, Dragon Rush, Outrage, Draco Meteor. Basically the baseline for "good physical and special options".
Dark: Crunch, Dark Pulse, Throat Chop, Darkest Lariat, Foul Play. Not a lot of variety, but it does have physical and special options that are usable and common.
Fairy: Dazzling Gleam, Play Rough, Moonblast, Misty Explosion. It has the bare minimum, but not much else. Not surprising given it's a new type, but it's definitely the second-most limited type.
Normal: (I'm not listing these, it's twice the relevant moves of any other type. Basically, whatever you want, this type has, even if the distribution is wacky.)
Fighting: Focus Punch, HJK, Focus Blast, Close Combat, Superpower, Hammer Arm, Cross Chop, Jump Kick, Sacred Sword, Sky Uppercut, Body Press, Aura Sphere, Submission. Truly ridic physical options, including 4 at 120 bp or better. Special options are Focus Miss and the handful of mons that learn Aura Sphere, so bleh.
Flying: Sky Attack, Brave Bird, Hurricane, Fly, Bounce, Drill Peck, Acrobatics. Decent number of moves, all of them bad. Hurricane misses, Acro costs you your item, Drill Peck has limited distribution, and everything else is 2-turn. This is rough.
Poison: Belch, Gunk Shot, Sludge Wave, Sludge Bomb, Poison Jab. It has what it needs, physical and special, but nothing too odd to take advantage of.
Ground: Earthquake, High Horsepower, Earth Power, Drill Run, Dig. Has EQ and Earth Power, and therefore nothing else is relevant. Would like variety, doesn't need it.
Rock: Head Smash, Meteor Beam, Stone Edge, Power Gem. Every offensive move of this type has some reason not to use it. You can make them all work, but it's like flying, you're never satisfied with the options.
Bug: Leech Life, X-Scissor, Lunge, Bug Buzz, First Impression, Pollen Puff, Megahorn. Lots of physical variety, decent special options. No real complaints, other than the type chart.
Ghost: Poltergeist, Phantom Force, Shadow Ball. One decent move of each category, both with really good distribution. Everything else is signature, but there are a lot of signature moves. I'm not sure if we call that good or not, but it definitely doesn't have any interesting choices to make.
Steel: Steel Beam, Steel Roller, Iron Tail, Meteor Mash, Iron Head, Flash Cannon. Despite officially having options, every steel type is basically forced to run Iron Head/Flash Cannon/Gyro Ball unless they're very lucky.
Special:
Fire: Blast Burn, Eruption, Burn Up, Overheat, Flare Blitz, Inferno, Heat Wave, Flamethrower, Blaze Kick, Fire Lash, Fire Pledge, Lava Plume. Every special option you could want. Physical, there's Flare Blitz, Blaze Kick, and Fire Lash. The latter two have limited distributions, so a lot of physical fires have to be suicidal, but Flare Blitz isn't a /bad/ move.
Water: Water Spout, Hydro Cannon, Hydro Pump, Crabhammer, Aqua Tail, Muddy Water, Surf, Liquidation, Snipe Shot, Water Pledge, Scald, Dive, Waterfall. Probably the best specially offensive type in the game except maybe fire, good physical options. The type people mean when they say certain types are too good.
Grass: Frenzy Plant, Leaf Storm, Solar Blade, Wood Hammer, Power Whip, Petal Dance, Solar Beam, Petal Blizzard, Energy Ball, Grass Pledge, Seed Bomb. This is apparently the 'non-offensive' starter type. Basically has every physical and special offense option you could ask for.
Electric: Discharge, Thunderbolt, Wild Charge, Thunder. Decent special coverage, a single outright bad physical option. It's notable that there's a lot of signature Electric Physical moves, likely bc they know they have to give any notable physical electric type something if they want it to be used.
Psychic: Synchronoise, Future Sight, Dream Eater, Psychic, Psychic Fangs, Eerie Spell, Expanding Force, Psyshock, Zen Headbutt, Extrasensory. Lots of odd special options, decent physical options.
Ice: Blizzard, Ice Beam, Icicle Crash. Basic special options with great distribution, one very meh physical option that not much gets. Not good.
Dragon: Dual Chop, Dragon Claw, Dragon Pulse, Dragon Rush, Outrage, Draco Meteor. Basically the baseline for "good physical and special options".
Dark: Crunch, Dark Pulse, Throat Chop, Darkest Lariat, Foul Play. Not a lot of variety, but it does have physical and special options that are usable and common.
Fairy: Dazzling Gleam, Play Rough, Moonblast, Misty Explosion. It has the bare minimum, but not much else. Not surprising given it's a new type, but it's definitely the second-most limited type.
Looking at it, there's a lot of types that have more options than I thought. And some types are much worse. Shout out to Ghost, Ground, Special Ice, Physical Fairy, and Special Dark for having exactly what is required offensively and literally nothing else. Worst types: Rock, Flying, Special Fighting, Physical Electric, Physical Ice.
To keep this on topic, why are they flying-type options so bad? When "give up your item slot" is considered a reasonable option in competitive, there's a serious problem with the type. It's not a defensive type, it's all fast frail physical attackers, and yet Brave Bird and Hurricane are the limits for decent offensive options.
*Less than 80 BP or less than 70 accuracy generally requires an ability or odd circumstances to take advantage of, making it essentially signature(Bug Bite Scizor, Dynamic Punch Golurk+Machamp, etc). Also, I'm calling Zing Zap, Sacred Fire, and similar signature bc they're more like "signature for 2 species"
**Aura Sphere etc get counted but called out bc how often do you actually expect to see that move?
There doesn't even need to necessarily be a super high BP physical move for Electric, since while a 120 BP physical Electric-type move would be awesome, in some cases good STAB for competitive can have a more modest BP like 95 or even 85-80 but come with a good and strong secondary effect to make up for it. Water-type for example has historically at best had Waterfall and Liquidation as good physical attacks on that end, which are 80 and 85 BP respectively, but the former has a flinch chance (which is always good), and the latter can lower physical Defense as a debuff, and both benefit from Sheer Force in the case of something like Kingler or Feraligatr. Ice-type only has Icicle Crash which is also 85 BP but that's a good STAB move on the Pokemon that do get it (despite its meh distribution) partially because it can make the opponent flinch. Same with Psychic in the form of Zen Headbutt and Psychic Fangs.
Dark-type moves in particular on both physical and special sides have never had particularly high BP either (usually 80), but they make up for lack of raw power with the ability to have some strong second effects.
But yeah, Luxray and Electivire could really benefit from something better than Wild Charge frankly, same goes with Zebstrika and to an extent Eelektross, or alternatively (or both) the former three should get some way to boost their power (Electivire with a boosting move pleeeaase).
Brave Bird is bad? 120 BP move that isn't two-turn, only downside is it induces recoil. There's a reason any Pokemon that is a physical Flying-type will absolutely use it as their main STAB attack, it hits hard as hell and the only thing against it is that it makes the Pokemon using it somewhat suicidal.
Dark-type moves in particular on both physical and special sides have never had particularly high BP either (usually 80), but they make up for lack of raw power with the ability to have some strong second effects.
But yeah, Luxray and Electivire could really benefit from something better than Wild Charge frankly, same goes with Zebstrika and to an extent Eelektross, or alternatively (or both) the former three should get some way to boost their power (Electivire with a boosting move pleeeaase).
Brave Bird is bad? 120 BP move that isn't two-turn, only downside is it induces recoil. There's a reason any Pokemon that is a physical Flying-type will absolutely use it as their main STAB attack, it hits hard as hell and the only thing against it is that it makes the Pokemon using it somewhat suicidal.
What's worst about the signature distribution is that it is not a sure-way to make a Pokémon work, especially since we already start to get far more signature moves than generic moves as new moves. Game Freak ends up prioritizing a bit too much on flavor and not enough focusing on making a more decent equilibrium between the types. Poltergeist (a favorite of mine mechanically) and Meteor Beam for Ghost and Rock respectively are a start, but not enough at the moment.
That the same goes for Abilities in term of signature. Do we really need all that more Abilities that change a Pokémon form, especially that ends up being overly gimmicky? While that works marvel for Aegislash and Mimikyu does to having other things that helped them a lot such as typing, learnset and how the Ability works, others ends up falling flat in terms of viability competitively or worse, in-game. Signature abilities may be understandable for boxart Legendary to make them more enticing, but I don't think it would always work on just new Pokémon in general.
That the same goes for Abilities in term of signature. Do we really need all that more Abilities that change a Pokémon form, especially that ends up being overly gimmicky? While that works marvel for Aegislash and Mimikyu does to having other things that helped them a lot such as typing, learnset and how the Ability works, others ends up falling flat in terms of viability competitively or worse, in-game. Signature abilities may be understandable for boxart Legendary to make them more enticing, but I don't think it would always work on just new Pokémon in general.
I don't understand why Dual Wingbeat had to hit twice; they could have just made a simple, 80 BP 100 Acc physical Flying move and it would have been perfect. I get the sense that they wanted to add one move of each type that had some sort of /weird/ mechanic.
Also, Flip Turn's distribution is absolutely embarrassing.
Also, Flip Turn's distribution is absolutely embarrassing.
That would have made it even more of a Drill Peck clone.
But why? Hitting twice makes Dual Wingbeat a better move than Drill Peck in certain situations, and the same in almost every other. Hitting twice is much better vs Substitute, avoids Focus Sash / Sturdy, and allows it to be affected by Technician to become 120BP. The only downside is that if it crits, it only affects the first hit instead of both, and means that twice the damage is taken from Iron Barbs or Rough Skin. That’s a very minor downside compared with breaking Substitute, and makes Dual Wingbeat an all around much better move.
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Depends on the tier and format. If you've got Ferrothorn and Garchomp running around, hitting twice sounds like a much greater detriment than sometimes dealing half damage through Substitute is a benefit. Plus even without those two you've got Rocky Helmet mons trying to punish Boots U-turn, and then on top of all of that, you've also got 90% accuracy instead of a perfect 100.
There's a reason the go-to Dragon STAB is Dragon Claw and not Dual Chop.
Actually the only really competitively used dragon stabs are Scale Shot and Draco Meteor, and phisical attackers generally just skip the dragon stab altoghether.
Embarassing in which sense? Most water types learn it, and it doesn't need further distribution as there's already Volt Switch and U-turn.
It's actually funny how Flip Turn got almost 0 VGC usage (I have yet to see it used ever), and even the other 2 don't see *that* much usage outside of Pokes with Intimidate or choice users, meanwhile toghether with entry hazards it's destroying the format that doesn't exist (6v6 singles) since a few generations.
Unfortunate to play a format that doesn't exist officially eh.
Very fond of Pokemon Journeys so far but irrationally annoyed by the scene in the first episode when Lugia appears. After it flattens all the Pokemon who try to tackle it, one of the trainers on the dock shouts "Let's all take it on together!" and the guy next to him exclaims "yeah, a Raid Battle!" Did... did he just invent the term? It's so weird and out of place.
Isnt raid battle an official term for dmax battles? Unless you mean that the character in the show is the first one to use the term raid battle and would create it in the anime verse, which I can see your point
I don't think he's naming it, he's just calling it what it was in a clunky expository way.
"Yeah, a raid battle" meaning "yeah, we will take it all together, as this is a raid battle"
to put it another way "We'll fight 2 on 2" could easily be followed by someone going "yeah, a tag battle". It's jsut how conversation works sometimes
Afaik yes he is the first one to use the term. I haven't watched all of Journeys (in English) so I don't know if every time there's a raid battle (like the Golurk in the Relic Castle or the Zapdos in a recent episode) they call it a raid battle but I don't think they do.
It makes sense, but yeah the highly expository way it comes off just sticks out. It's like a giant wink to the audience.
Okay I was replaying Y and why the heck is the second Lysandre battle even there?
Guys, I fought this guy an hour ago. I fight him again 30 minutes later. It is literally more or less stated before the battle that it's inconsequential to stall for time.
Why? Because his mons got two evolutions? Is that why?
What, so Lysandre can be a (barely qualifying) """recurring boss""" shoveled onto the end of the game like everything else in X and Y?
By far the most pointless battle in the entire series. And we all know how pointless the Team Flare admins are too.
Also, now you can never unsee it:
Guys, I fought this guy an hour ago. I fight him again 30 minutes later. It is literally more or less stated before the battle that it's inconsequential to stall for time.
Why? Because his mons got two evolutions? Is that why?
What, so Lysandre can be a (barely qualifying) """recurring boss""" shoveled onto the end of the game like everything else in X and Y?
By far the most pointless battle in the entire series. And we all know how pointless the Team Flare admins are too.
Also, now you can never unsee it:
You fight Lysandre 3 times over an hour (and we're being generous here) and it's never not weird every time I see it.
Would not surprise me if an earlier revision of the story had you fight him throughout the game or something, but they didnt want to get rid of those battle sequences??
The only other similar instance I can think of (barring things like speed running or sequence breaking eg Giovanni in gen 1) is Guzma in gen 7, where you beat him up at his hideout then beat him up at Aether Paradise also within about an hour or so but that's just 2 battles and each one is significantly different from each other. & has significantly more going on between them.
e: Mmm, well. There is Hop....
Would not surprise me if an earlier revision of the story had you fight him throughout the game or something, but they didnt want to get rid of those battle sequences??
The only other similar instance I can think of (barring things like speed running or sequence breaking eg Giovanni in gen 1) is Guzma in gen 7, where you beat him up at his hideout then beat him up at Aether Paradise also within about an hour or so but that's just 2 battles and each one is significantly different from each other. & has significantly more going on between them.
e: Mmm, well. There is Hop....
speaking of lysandere being stupid...
It’s his final battle, and the stake of the world is at stake.
He sends out his first pokémon...
his gyarados has dragon coverage
also his pyroar only has 3 moves
good job xy, you made the main antagonist’s final team very threatening
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I mean if I fought guzma 3 times in the span of an hou with only minor adjustments to his team and I'd also think this was overkill, character or no
As if he wasn't easy enough, his entire team only has one move that isn't an attack. And it's on a Pokémon with only three moves! Would it really have made the fight too hard if the Gyarados got DD or if the Honchkrow got Swagger? Better yet, fill out the incomplete movesets. Give the Mienshao Fake Out and the Pyroar Noble Roar and the team is instantly less embarrassing. Round it out with a Weavile/Crobat or some other vaguely evil Pokémon and you've got a proper villain team. It would still be pathetically easy because this is Kalos, but at least it wouldn't be laughably so.
Let's not forget that this is the guy who thinks making another of his mons Dark type against someone who added Xerneas to their team literally right in front of him was a good idea. Apparently he didn't even have crunch to get STAB off of. I get that the mega choice is less stupid in Y, but I still remember expecting Mega Houndoom because there was no way he'd be that dumb, right?
Gyarados didn't actually have access to Crunch in XY, not even through past-gen transfer. Crunch wasn't added to Gyarados's movepool until ORAS. Before then, its only options for Dark STAB were Bite, Payback, and Dark Pulse.
No, it'd be easier.
Pokémon AI is embarrassing lmao. They'd try to set up to the moon and get cooked. 4 Attacks is the best way to use their talents, especially with some tricky ideas like U-Turn. Unless you're going for status. Will-O-Wisp turned out fine for Kabu...
Honestly I'm surprised they didn't give Lysandre Florges. It would cover Yveltal at least as well as fit into his connection to AZ and "MUH BEAUTIFUL PERFECT WORLD" shtick as a villain. Of course this is Kalos where we cannot make any smart boss design choices in any capacity, [insert bitter commiseration about Z being axed that invariably comes up in every discussion about XY].
Honestly Lysandre needed two different teams depending on the versions. He can keep Pyroar, but I think his Mega Pokemon should have either been Mega Aggron (X) & Mega Tyranitar (Y). Then after that either have neutral Pokemon which could work with either Legends (such as Florges) or Pokemon super effective/resistant to the Legendary.