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Unpopular opinions

I never understood what the appeal of Marnie was. From my experience playing the game, she one of, if not the most disliked character in SwSh. My big issue with her is that she no relevance until the 7th gym despite being introduced to her at the very beginning. I honestly forgot she existed until my arrival of myself for the 7th gym badge. Even during the Rose fiasco, she is still background character despite providing the support for the player with Team Yell.
She's a rival who isn't Hop or Bede, which goes a long way IMO. And she's not overused like them*.

(Also, yeah, she's also a tiny punk tsundere, what do you expect from the fans?)

*You fight Bede 4 times from start through the League. Hop is 8 fights. Marnie is 3.)
 
You leave hop alone. Idc abt bede he could get beat up or whatever but if i see hop hate its on sight.

I don't even know if this is an unpopular or popular opinion because I have never seen anyone talk about this but the safari zone was a mistake. Top 3 most fucking annoying gimmicks and it took way too long for them to ditch it out. Not really excited for it to come back in the gen 4 remakes, but I guess its the last time we'll ever see it :pikuh:
 
I never understood what the appeal of Marnie was. From my experience playing the game, she one of, if not the most disliked character in SwSh. My big issue with her is that she no relevance until the 7th gym despite being introduced to her at the very beginning. I honestly forgot she existed until my arrival of myself for the 7th gym badge. Even during the Rose fiasco, she is still background character despite providing the support for the player with Team Yell.

Granted, I know that SwSh isn’t known for its stories and character, but I find Marnie bad for the aforementioned reasons above. If I have to pick a favorite SwSh character it would be Sonia. Sonia goes from hesitating to go on an adventure to becoming a Professor after really getting interested in the lore of the Darkest Day, to the point of becoming the new professor, something we’ve never seen in a Pokémon game before. My second favorite character is Hop, though “ favorite “ might be a bit too much. I like his character arc in trying to distinguish himself from his brother and player and how he tries different team comps to improve and at the ends he decides to be a Professor as a result. My problems lie in the gameplay. Too often does he interrupt you while your exploring to show you info you already know or that you don’t need an explanation on, and that’s not going through all the dialogue he states during the battles with you, especially with type advantages. People thought the hand holding in SM was bad? Hop makes it look so much more tolerable in SwSh.

It's a matter of taste for many, really. Even if she doesn't develop too much over the course of the game and she's not that prominent, she does have a likable personality for many, and sometimes, that's all a character needs to have for someone to like them: just a likable personality.

They should just update DP with graphics and QoL improvements and sell it as BDSP

If there's any reassurance, it's becoming increasingly likely with time that this is exactly what's going to happen.
 
You leave hop alone. Idc abt bede he could get beat up or whatever but if i see hop hate its on sight.

I don't even know if this is an unpopular or popular opinion because I have never seen anyone talk about this but the safari zone was a mistake. Top 3 most fucking annoying gimmicks and it took way too long for them to ditch it out. Not really excited for it to come back in the gen 4 remakes, but I guess its the last time we'll ever see it :pikuh:
Well, I personally liked it, lot of people disliked the HGSS Safari Zone, apparently you had to wait 30 days in real time to obtain some Pokémon. On the bright side, it did allow you to obtain certain Pokémon like Houndour and Murkrow which were only found in Kanto in the original GS. In the case of Gen 4, they got rid of the Safari game in ORAS, so I imagine they will do the same for BDSP.
 
Well, I personally liked it, lot of people disliked the HGSS Safari Zone, apparently you had to wait 30 days in real time to obtain some Pokémon. On the bright side, it did allow you to obtain certain Pokémon like Houndour and Murkrow which were only found in Kanto in the original GS. In the case of Gen 4, they got rid of the Safari game in ORAS, so I imagine they will do the same for BDSP.

Not....really. Most of the HGSS safari zone expansive roster is locked behind postgame. Baoba won't call you to introduce the decorations that make the more rare mons spawn unless you beat the league before.
 
The even worse (but more plausible) alternative is that the person who created it sat back, heaved a sigh of satisfaction, and said "ahhh, look at that. It's perfect" then passed it along to his boss, who marked it "no revision needed" and then gave it to an appalled game renderer

Actually I imagined the first one was just a Lucario with an orange body & "pants", all the black swapped with yellow (except the legs, those turned blue), green eyes, and suddenly spikey hair. They liked it, but said "too on the nose" and reworked it so it was more "original". Because, let's be honest, Mega Lucario is just the artists interpretation of a Super Saiyan Lucario without giving it the exact aesthetic of a Super Saiyan.

I never understood what the appeal of Marnie was.
She's a rival who isn't Hop or Bede, which goes a long way IMO. And she's not overused like them*.

More specifically, she was a Rival that was neither friendly nor jerk, at least when you met her.

*GASP* Yes, apparently we can have someone who is a rival that doesn't see the player character as best buds forever or an enemy to be mocked, but rather another person who is of equal trainer skill that she has to beat to accomplish her goal. She's both willing to help you out, but she isn't going to do it quite out of kindness but more because it's either the right thing to do or/and wants to battle you to see where she measures up before having to do the "final" battle (note she doesn't have Grimmsnarl until the Wyndom stadium even though she likely had it all this time (as opposed to Bede who had a member of the Hatenna family every time you battled him); no need for her to show you her strongest Pokemon for battles that don't matter).

Now, after you beat her she starts leaning more friendly, but that's cause she lost. No point in being stern & distant anymore, you knocked her out of the Champion Cup so she can finally let her guard down. She's not even angry, which to some seems a bit gary stu on the player's part, but I more see it being part of her pragmatic personality: Why hold a grudge when it gets you nothing? Better to be friendly with the potential future Champion so that you can possibly ask them to get the help Spikemuth needs. Also her own career as a trainer is safely secured as she knows she can fallback on being the Spikemuth Gym Leader, even before we're told that information I imagine it's possibly a discussion that her and Piers had before but she still wants to have her shot at being Champion (plus with both her and Piers as participants that increases their chances). She doesn't like Team Yell causing trouble in her name not because she doesn't appreciate them discouraging other trainers but their antics could get her disqualified and/or make people think even less of Spikemuth thus less likely to help it. Not saying she isn't naturally friendly or lawful, but I'm also saying she doesn't lose anything not being friendly or following the rules. Think about this: Marnie likely could have opened the main gates of Spikemuth or just gone straight to Piers and tell him what's going on. But instead she waited for the player because she wanted to have a battle with them, likely have some personal control of the revelation she's Piers' younger sister, and being she knows the gates will come up before they would get in trouble if some trainers quit because they were impatient, well, that's not her fault. Infact the only time you see Marnie get angry is when something goes against her plan: Piers offering her the Gym Leader position. She wants BOTH of them to compete, and Piers handing over the Gym Leader position now means only she'll be in the Champion Cup. And even if much of this is just fan theory, it's still a refreshing take on a rival from what we usually get.

But, yes, her being absent for a lot of the story does hurt her development. Her also lacking interactions with Hop (without the player) and Bede also I think hurts her as we don't see how she acts towards them. Now, I imagined she wouldn't act any differently toward Hop than she does to the player, but during the period of the game where Hop was feeling down on himself could have had a scene where we walk on Hop and Marnie finishing a battle where Marnie won. However, Marnie is upset because she can tell that Hop wasn't putting his all into the battle, Hop admitting he was more using the battle to figure out a better team. Now the player would know Hop is having a down period so he means no insult, but to Marnie she could take it as meaning Hop doesn't consider her a challenge which gets her angry and say further not nice things (maybe ending in a "quit if you're not going to take things seriously" and walking away) to Hop putting him further in a slump. After they both lose in the Champion Cup would she realize that Hop is well-meaning but it having a bit of an inferiority complex with his brother messing with his head, possibly something she could relate to. As for Bede, I say for that have it be an earlier event where we walk into an end of a battle with them where Bede won. She's angry once again, but more justified this time as Bede is doing his usual gloating about being hand-picked by the Chairman (could also maybe hint about Marnie's background and about to mention it but Marnie stops him telling him to "cut if out"). Marnie already has a dislike for the Chairman who has shown he doesn't care about Spikemuth, so losing to his prideful proclaimed prodigy (while she had a Type advantage, no less) cracks her stern mask, maybe confiding in the player soon after that people like Bede is why she thinks Galar is in need of a better Champion who isn't under Rose's thumb (though leave the ambiguity to that).
 
Anyone feel like a lot of Gen 2 mons don't really....follow up design wise to Gen 1 mons?
It's especially noticeable for early route mons, where despite Pidgey/Rattata/Caterpie line and Sentret/Hoothoot/Ledyba both covering the same basic animal niche, Gen 1s are noticeably more realistic and less blatantly shape or cartoon based

It gets more annoying in some cross evos. Elekid is a lot more blatantly based on a human made contemporary thing. Smoochum demystifies Jynx being an an intangible being outside the wig (this would have probably been removed given the controversy though), as does Magby ruining that Magmar is based on a 60s alien called Solarites

Wackier evo lines (Hitmonlee/chan, or Poli line) get....a notoriously cutified simpler mon. Sad thing is the leaked protos show that this wasn't the case initially. Even Crobat is cutified compared to Zubat/Golbat

And then there's the absolute lack of fossils, less odd real life inspirations (Pitcher plant, Raffelasia)

Even type wise, while Gen 1 had a lot of poison, water, and Grass mons, Gen 2 is littered with Normal, and the new steel ends up being for cross evos most of the time

Granted this doesn't apply to all Johto mons (the cool Houndoom line, Ttar, legends, and even the starters), but it mostly felt way too safe compared to Gen 1. I think the only reason it's considered "a close follow up to Gen 1" is strictly due to time of release, and it having watercolor. Even though I'd say Gen 3 is closer design wise to one (though that loved body lines and colored eyes for the main dif)
 
Anyone feel like a lot of Gen 2 mons don't really....follow up design wise to Gen 1 mons?
It's especially noticeable for early route mons, where despite Pidgey/Rattata/Caterpie line and Sentret/Hoothoot/Ledyba both covering the same basic animal niche, Gen 1s are noticeably more realistic and less blatantly shape or cartoon based

It gets more annoying in some cross evos. Elekid is a lot more blatantly based on a human made contemporary thing. Smoochum demystifies Jynx being an an intangible being outside the wig (this would have probably been removed given the controversy though), as does Magby ruining that Magmar is based on a 60s alien called Solarites

Wackier evo lines (Hitmonlee/chan, or Poli line) get....a notoriously cutified simpler mon. Sad thing is the leaked protos show that this wasn't the case initially. Even Crobat is cutified compared to Zubat/Golbat

And then there's the absolute lack of fossils, less odd real life inspirations (Pitcher plant, Raffelasia)

Even type wise, while Gen 1 had a lot of poison, water, and Grass mons, Gen 2 is littered with Normal, and the new steel ends up being for cross evos most of the time

Granted this doesn't apply to all Johto mons (the cool Houndoom line, Ttar, legends, and even the starters), but it mostly felt way too safe compared to Gen 1. I think the only reason it's considered "a close follow up to Gen 1" is strictly due to time of release, and it having watercolor. Even though I'd say Gen 3 is closer design wise to one (though that loved body lines and colored eyes for the main dif)

Not sure if you've seen this but it was my first thought when I read this post.



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^ is why I don't understand why people think GSC/HGSS are the best games. They're fun, but all the good pokemon are either Kanto or EXTREMELY rare.

While I don't think GSC are the best games either, I'd put them aside and solely concentrate on HGSS.

I'd put them below GSC in essentially everything but the interface, because there were so many things they could have fixed from the originals but, outside of QoL improvements, the only changes were restoring Viridian Forest and Seafoam Islands (which is good), ramping up the levels in Kanto a bit (as well as adding non-Johto Pokémon) and some rosters changes. And that's it.
 
^ is why I don't understand why people think GSC/HGSS are the best games. They're fun, but all the good pokemon are either Kanto or EXTREMELY rare.

Well, as someone whose first game was Crystal and still loves it, I'll take a stab. I think they're very much games of their era. When they were released, the internet was still in its relative infancy and so lots of aspects of the games were unknown and rarely-discussed. The Johto region felt incredibly mysterious and exciting - there were all sorts of secrets in the game that I didn't discover until years down the line. It was a long time after I'd beaten the game for the first time that I unlocked the hidden rooms in the Ruins of Alph, for example. The lore of the Johto games is rich and engaging and still has people obsessing over it today.

The extreme rarity of many of the Johto species is a legitimate flaw of these games and I wish each Johto Gym Leader could have had a Johto signature mon. But looking back, at the time that wasn't an issue in the way it was now. The rarity of those Pokemon was legitimately part of their charm - waiting for that elusive swarm, or hunting in caves for that rare species with a low encounter chance, or desperately lobbing balls at that species which has a high chance to flee. I only knew like 3 or 4 other kids who played Pokemon when I was younger and the occasions where we'd a) be together with our GameBoys and b) have a link cable were actually vanishingly slim, so trading was a genuine rare event.

Plus the overload of Kanto mons wasn't quite such a glaring issue at the time; they don't feel like another region's Pokemon, since Johto and Kanto are so interlinked. Scyther being Bugsy's ace is fine because no one in Kanto had Scyther as their ace. Lots of Pokemon which were hard to find in RBY are common in GSC so that was a point in their favour; when I was finally able to trade with people who had RBY, they were very keen to give me exclusives like the fossils and the Kanto starters in return for them.

No Pokemon game has ever given me the sense of wonder and excitement that Crystal did, and maybe that is just nostalgia goggles talking - I'm sure someone whose first title was Moon would say the same. But it's more than that. Internet trading and the proliferation of forums like this means that if there's a tricky puzzle in the games or a hard-to-find species, I can sort it out within minutes. That wasn't the case in 2001. Those Pokemon like Slowking and Scizor I couldn't get on my own genuinely seemed more elusive than Lugia, and it took months of grinding to get my Larvitar to become a Tyranitar. I never managed to catch a Sneasel or a Delibird. Obviously, I never managed to complete my Pokedex on my old Crystal file.

I may have rambled a bit but I hope that partially answers your question. IMO HGSS should actually have tweaked the locations and rarities of Pokemon like Houndour and Murkrow since by this point the Johto mons were less hard-to-get and deserved a proper showcase in their own region. But that's another conversation.
 
^ is why I don't understand why people think GSC/HGSS are the best games. They're fun, but all the good pokemon are either Kanto or EXTREMELY rare.
GSC I like the aesthetic and music. And Gold was my first Pokemon game, so it was my first foray into the series. Gold was the "Pokemon magic" to me. So when HGSS roll around and do justice to that and more, it just was amazing. Game looked, sounded, played, etc. nice. It carried on the "tons of content" from DPPt. There was the following Pokemon and GB Sounds, the former that just helped the nostalgia. And so much more. Sure, the games have their flaws, but they're my favorites for a reason: they're excellent remakes of Pokemon games that meant a lot to me. It's a lot nostalgia based, but I don't think it's entirely that. So there's a simple tangent on HGSS for me.

I don't think people are crazy if they think Emerald, Platinum, or BW2 are the best in the series though. All of those are solid entries as well.
 
Gen 2... I think the games (and their remakes) are solid overall, but when it comes to the typical reasons I see given as to why Gen 2 is supposedly the greatest generation ever, I honestly have a hard time vouching for them. Here are some of the more common reasons I see given, and why I don't find them very convincing:
  • Being able to revisit Kanto - It's boring. Aside from battling the Gym Leaders and Red, there really isn't anything noteworthy to do. Kanto was already pretty dull in the original games, but in GSC, the region is about half its original size, the few locations that do remain are really just there for the sake of being there, the player still runs into Lv. 2 Rattatas on Route 1, and there's just nothing else new to look forward to once you get there. It seems to me like this iteration of Kanto was included the way it was just so players could reminisce about their trek through the region the previous generation - which may be a great idea for a museum exhibit, but not so great as a gameplay choice.
  • Adding Steel- and Dark-types - I'm not really on board with judging a game based on the things it introduces (e.g. DPP introducing the Physical/Special Split, BW introducing reusable TMs, XY introducing Fairy-types, etc.). I can appreciate that they introduced them, but every game to come out since has included them too, so you can still get the perks of their existences in those games. But as for this particular addition? Your options are as follows: Magneton (doesn't learn any Steel-type attacks), Umbreon (requires max happiness), Murkrow (unavailable until Kanto), Forretress (only obtainable via Headbutting trees and also doesn't learn any Steel-type attacks), Steelix (requires a trade), Scizor (also requires a trade), Sneasel (also unavailable until Kanto), Skarmory (unavailable in Gold and arrives very late in the other games), Houndoom (also unavailable until Kanto), and Tyranitar (also unavailable until Kanto). So I can't really say that GSC shows off these new types very well. Maybe that's supposed to be part of the overall "discovery" theme of the games, but it wore pretty thin for me after I discovered that, yes, these types do in fact exist.
  • Day/Night feature - Honestly, this was always a pet peeve of mine in these games (and RSE to an extent as well). Starting in Gen 4, you can just change the time on your system, but that wasn't the case in GSC. Here, once you set the time, it's all but fixed permanently (barring DST or a password in Crystal). This means that if you can't play the game at a certain time or on a certain day when a specific Pokemon you want to catch appears or an in-game event you want to participate in occurs, then tough shit for you, you're fucked. I know people love to talk about how "rEaLiStIc" it is, but here's the thing: I don't play video games for their realism. I detest when "realism" impedes my enjoyment of any video game, and this is no exception. Plus, this feature is also what drains the internal battery, thus wiping out your entire game once it runs dry. And any feature that does that deserves a hearty NO U.
  • Silver - He doesn't even feel like a proper rival. To me, the best rivals are the ones that provide an incentive to keep getting stronger. Some examples: Blue was an obnoxious douchebag, but he at least had the clout to back it up (gym badges, championship, always being a step ahead of you, etc.). Wally is essentially the anti-Blue; you're the one who's always at least a step ahead of him, and you need to keep getting stronger so he doesn't catch up to you. Hugh needs your help getting his sister's Purrloin back from Team Plasma. By comparison, Silver... just doesn't provide any incentive. He's ultimately just some delinquent that the regional police should be chasing after. It never felt satisfying to beat him early on, because he'd just keep acting too far gone and blaming his Pokemon for his losing. He starts to show some character development later on after losing to Lance, but it's still way too little, way too late. And even then, it still feels like Lance drills into his brain the importance of raising Pokemon with love more than you ever do, thus rendering any potential incentive Silver could provide as a rival obsolete.
  • New Team Rocket - Neither iteration of Team Rocket scares or impresses me, but this iteration especially was a huge missed opportunity. The notion of a Giovanni-less Team Rocket trying to find their new identity is a cool concept, but I think they'd function better as villains if they had adopted a "Who needs Giovanni?" mentality and built up their own criminal establishment, as opposed to the "Waaah I miss my daddy!" bullshit we had to deal with instead. Renegade outlaws who do their own shit with no restraints or loyalties sounds a lot more interesting than another flock of brain-dead personality cultists, if you ask me. Plus, they could incorporate Lugia and/or Ho-Oh into their atrocities, which would automatically make them more terrifying than Giovanni's posse. The point is, I can't agree with people who tell me about how "great" this team is when I think they could have just as easily taken a vastly different - and far more interesting - direction.
  • Red - Let's make it a rule: if a trainer can be beaten by anyone whose team is 20 levels lower than his without breaking a sweat, his battle doesn't deserve to be called the best battle in the series. There really isn't a whole lot of strategy required to beat him besides spending another 8 hours level grinding against a bunch of Lv. 40-something mons outside Mt. Silver. His battle isn't bad, but far from being a contender for my favorite in the series. As for his being the player character from Gen 1... I don't know, I think my Gen 1 self would put up a much more substantial fight than this, and would use Pokemon that you'd actually expect the "best" trainer to use (like, say, Mewtwo).
  • Following Pokemon (HGSS) - The way some people gush over this feature, you'd think they had sold their souls to be able to have a Pokemon follow them around the same way Pikachu did in Yellow. Now, I personally like this feature, and think it adds a nice touch to the games it's available in, but you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that it can (or should) singlehandedly make or break a game. The absence of it in BW or B2W2 doesn't stop them from being my favorite games in the series, and the presence of it in LGPE still can't drag me into playing them.
Now, I'm not saying there aren't valid or understandable reasons to love Gen 2; I just can't take a lot of the more "conventional" reasons seriously, and find them to be some of the least convincing reasons one can give for liking or disliking a certain generation more than the others. If I were a newcomer to Pokemon, or if I had grown up with a later game in the series, I don't think I would be swayed by them at all.
 
On the topic of Gen 2 and their remakes, I do agree with a lot of points said about their flaws, like how they poorly show off Pokémon and how bad the levels of wild Pokémon are in general are especially in the post game. I played HGSS before I played GS before I go into my post.

Kanto in Gen 2: I actually disagree saying that Kanto harmed Johto. I liked being able to travel Kanto and get all the gym badges in any fashion you want, it provides a sense of openness that no other game has tried to do. But my main reason why I like is the cultural contrast between the two regions. As someone who loves Art History, I love looking at artwork between of different People and how they used art to show off culture and I think Kanto and Johto show off that very well. When you look at Kanto, it’s 100% modern. No ruins, temples, legends, or myths of any kind, the only region to be like that in any Pokémon game. This is referenced by its Pokémon as well, with Porygon being the first artificial Pokémon, Eevee having an unstable genetic code that allows multiple evolutions, Fossils can be resurrected from labs, and even the Legendary Pokémon don’t have any lore: The Legendary Birds are merely stated to be rare Pokémon, and Mewtwo was created from Mew through its DNA. Cities like Saffron are huge modern Metropolises, while Pewter has a museum dedicated to science. Johto on the other hand, pays close attention to traditional rituals passed down through the years. Ecruteak honors old form of dance through a theatre, Pokeballs are created through hand instead of factories like in Kanto, and there are no fossils in Johto because the region does not respect new technology. The legendary Pokémon also reflect the lore as well. The Legendary Beasts were created from Ho-oh after lightning struck the two towers, causing Ho-oh and Lugia, guardians of the towers to flee. The towers remain untouched has a reminder of the past. Celebii is said to punish children by taking them through time.These are nice details that you are supposed to put to notice after playing the Johto games to show off the region.

Silver: Definitely my favorite of all the “ Jerk “ Rivals. I feel like Silver is less of a criminal and more of someone who need a warm hug.:psyglad: In all seriousness, I find Silver a lot more interesting because he’s less of a snob compared to Blue and Bede ( The only rivals I consider jerks ). Unlike Blue, who doesn’t change at all even when you beat him ( In the Sevii Islands he is still saying “ Smell you later “. ) while Bede just vanishes during the half of the story and makes a random appearance in the Climax as a gym leader. While Silver does do a lot behind the screens, he also shows the most change between the two, becoming different person in the end of the Johto games. And lastly, Silver’s personality is explained by the abusive relationship between him and Giovanni in HGSS, something that isn’t addressed in Blue and Bede. In HGSS, he even lets his starter follow him. That being said, most of Silver’s growth was explained in the remakes, not the original, so understandable why you may not like Silver.

Type Distrubution: I’m playing through the virtual console version of Silver, and OMG, I never realized how bad type distribution is.You thought DP had terrible Fire type distribution? Well GS, has it just as bad. No Fire Stone available means that Flareon, Arcanine, and Ninetales are unavailable until Kanto, while Entei is roaming legendary Pokémon who is incredibly difficult to catch. This leaves Magmar as your only option for a Fire type in the wild. Umbreon is the only Dark type available until the post game, and most Steel types are also quite rare, with Scizor and Steelix being unavailable. And they only introduced only one Ghost and Dragon type in Gen 2, despite being the rarest types in Gen 1. Thankfully, Crystal and HGSS fix these issues by allowing stones to be obtained before Kanto and letting lines like Houndour and Misdreavus be obtainable before Kanto giving more diversity.

Personally, I’d say Gen 2 is completely obsolete by HGSS.Most of the flaws that plague the original Johto games are more or less fixed in the remakes, the same way how Platinum fixed DP.
 
Being able to revisit Kanto - It's boring. Aside from battling the Gym Leaders and Red, there really isn't anything noteworthy to do. Kanto was already pretty dull in the original games, but in GSC, the region is about half its original size, the few locations that do remain are really just there for the sake of being there, the player still runs into Lv. 2 Rattatas on Route 1, and there's just nothing else new to look forward to once you get there. It seems to me like this iteration of Kanto was included the way it was just so players could reminisce about their trek through the region the previous generation - which may be a great idea for a museum exhibit, but not so great as a gameplay choice.
This is one of the most common things I see when people say they like the Johto games. Johto fans often mention "Two regions!" as one of their main reasons for liking the Johto games. But I don't think I have ever seen anyone say "Two regions, and it's good." Which I personally don't think it is. It seems like some people prefer quantity over quality when it comes to regions in Pokémon. Personally, I think other games have better post-games in terms of new areas to explore, notably FR/LG, D/P/P, B/W and B2/W2. They might not have an entire new region to explore, but what they have is much better executed than Kanto in the Johto games. Apart from that, I agree with almost everything else you said, just wanted to comment on this.

Regarding how G/S/C felt mysterious, that is something I actually agree with. My first Pokémon game was Blue, but my second one was Silver and my third was Crystal, so the original Johto games were a big part of my childhood. I definitely feel that they had an atmosphere of mystery which I don't think the remakes managed to recreate, though that is partly because of how you nowadays can find out everything you want on the internet, as green_typhlosion said. At least for us older players, I'm not sure if the children of today are able to do the same. If not, perhaps they can get the same feeling of mystery from the modern games that we older players got from the older games which we played when we were younger.

I also remember some specific things about the mysteries in G/S/C. When I was a kid, I managed so solve some of the mysteries in the games on my own, though I had two guidebooks for the Johto games (one for G/S, one for Crystal). They taught me some things I would probably not have figured out on my own, such as where and when you can find Lapras. Though I'm not sure if they featured everything in the games, I don't remember if they even featured all Pokémon or if they showed where to find Lugia/Ho-Oh. Sadly, I do no longer have either of these guidebooks in my possession, so I can't go back and check. That said, I remember that I was able to figure out how to get to the cover legends on my own (partly, at least), which is one of my best memories from G/S/C.

I also disagree with the statement that HG/SS fixed the issues with G/S/C. If anything, I feel that they made minor improvements at best, while keeping most of the flaws from the originals. Notably the level curve, the Pokémon distribution, the terrible story and the lackluster post-game. I played G/S/C before HG/SS, and I remember that when HG/SS were released, I was heavily nostalgia-blinded, thinking they would be the best games ever. But after getting them, I mostly ended up disappointed. The more I played them, the less I liked them, and the blindness caused by the nostalgia eventually wore off. In the end, I did not like HG/SS all that much. They are my least favorite Pokémon games for a good reason. In comparison, I actually like G/S/C better. They are far from perfect, but they were at least fun for their time, which I can't say about HG/SS.

I think I have stated my opinion on everything else regarding HG/SS in earlier posts in this thread, so I won't do it again.

...

This would have been a perfect opportunity to include my upcoming unpopular opinion about the Johto games, but sadly, it is still not quite ready. I have been working on it a fair bit lately though, so I should hopefully be able to post it soon.
 
I see the gen 2 takes rolling. Gold was my first Pokemon game, it holds many memories and playthroughs, the feel of wonder and excitement, some disappointment where I saw their limits (trainers using kanto starters made me think they were available somewhere, they weren't), but overall a fantastic experience. I consider the travel to Kanto not as postgame but as campaign part 2 but how expansive it is, postgame stuff would be the remaining legendaries, Trainer House, Battle Tower (Crystal); and I'd still say that's a fair amount of stuff, not to mention the daily events that motivate you to come back. As said before, the game has its limits, the Pokemon distribution and the open ended nature mixed with a lack of a proper level curve being the most notable. Eggs and babies were a huge deal in Johto but aside from Togepi, the crystal exclusive Egg and the tedious Tyrogue sidequest, the game doesn't showcase them properly, later games would have baby mons in the wild to train and catch like Magby, Elekid, Budew, Pichu, etc; GS should've done this instead of having wild Magmars chilling. Silver is a great step up from Blue and I like how his character comes around, the Rocket execs were so forgettable they didn't even have names back then nor were any threat whatsoever.

Now, HGSS is a good example of a remake, and not just Pokemon-wise, what a game...While it still has many of its predecessor's flaws, Silver gets more scenes and it's more likable here (even an extra dialogue where he tried giving his stolen mon back, thank you!), some areas were given a new design like the Lighthouse, Lake of Rage, Victory Road (still no trainers but it's a step up), the prev Kanto areas that weren't there before, etc. Kanto trainers and bosses were also much more properly leveled, and in general, it had a lot more content to keep replaying even after beating Red. Now, I would've liked that it had fixed the level curve in Ecruteak-Blackthorne and more Pokemon available before the postgame. There was a notable attempt though, some mons like Misdreavus or the secret Slugma egg as well as the Pokewalker, but then why locking the Dusk and Dawn stones behind postgame? (Togekiss fans will have to wait a little longer). This is a team of my latest HG playthrough with a Pokewalker only challenge, it was an interesting roster to use, composed to Kanto mons that you can only get very late on a regular playthrough.

That's one of the points that HGSS excels that I see few people bringing it up, you get the most out of it by using the new added mechanics like the Pokewalker. Grinding for Red wasn't even necessary since the improved Kanto level curve (and a stronger E4 rematch) was enough to level up my team.
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Regarding GSC/HGSS's level curve, while I agree Johto's level curve is very flawed, I think there is one big way to work with the level curve and the structure of the game as a whole. One thing I did in my latest run of HeartGold is that once I had the means to do so, I went out of my way to explore the region's caves and side dungeons. Dark Cave, Union Cave, Mt. Mortar, Whirl Islands, etc. The games ever since GSC itself have more or less taken it as a given that once you have a certain HM, you backtrack and go access locations you didn't have access to beforehand. Union Cave, for example, has the lower floors inaccessible until you get Surf. Once you get Strength, you can get to Route 46 through Dark Cave and find a few Trainers there. In both cases, not only do you find a handful of Trainers, you can also find a handful of Pokemon you wouldn't be able to find otherwise. The Trainers are all in the mid 20's roughly, and in some cases the 30's when you get Waterfall. Union Cave, Whirl Islands, and Mt. Mortar all have wild mons in the mid 20's, and given you can go to the lower floors of Union Cave and Mt. Mortar as soon as you get Surf, while the mons on the main path are all in the lower levels, this is pretty nice for grinding purposes to get EXP faster when necessary. Route 34 also has a few Ace Trainers across the lake who make for a bit of good grinding too once you get Surf.

Given the overall structure of Johto, with its shortcuts to go back to earlier routes here and there, I'm inclined to believe the region was specifically meant to be explored off the beaten path. Granted, the non-linearity is already apparent with how you can choose to go either to Mahogany and the Lake of Rage first, or to Olivine and Cianwood first, but the way many side dungeons have Trainers and Pokemon closer in level to where you will be when you can first access them, they definitely want players to go out of their way to explore every nook and cranny and rewards the player for exploring.

I think one overlooked thing HGSS does that helps with leveling a lot compared to GSC is that it allows you to get almost every Pokegear number you can get, so you can have every rematchable Trainer's number at once, and once you have eight badges and before the League you can call all of them (or they call you) for rematches, and that can help a lot with grinding levels. They level up again after beating the League, which is good grinding before you head into Kanto, and those Trainers are stronger than in GSC so they give you more experience. And there are even more rematchable Trainers in Kanto who offer that extra EXP when you call them for rematches too, and after 16 badges everyone upgrades their teams again, which also adds some sweet EXP too. Another cool thing is the Gym Leader rematches: this is one of the most praised things about HGSS, but it's not only incredibly fun to rematch Gym Leaders, it's also a great source of grinding, especially in tandem with the upgraded Elite Four rematch teams. This means getting to the right levels for Red is even easier than ever with so many new sources of grinding EXP to gain levels.

Granted, there is one problem which is that you have to wait until a certain time of day and a certain day of the week to rematch certain batches of Trainers (or manipulate the system clock accordingly), which makes this less convenient than DPP's Vs. Seeker, but I think it offers a very good source of grinding experience all the same, and using it as a source of grinding is not only fun but helps with EXP gain all that much more easily.

And lastly, Silver’s personality is explained by the abusive relationship between him and Giovanni in HGSS, something that isn’t addressed in Blue and Bede.

It's worth noting that in HGSS it's also revealed through an event cutscene that Silver is actively trying to differentiate himself from his father after being disappointed in his decision to leave and his claims that he will form an even bigger Team Rocket, and how he relies on the potential of his posse of Grunts. Granted, this is only in a special Celebi event, but it's notable. Silver is clearly shown to be angered that Giovanni relies so much on having a big organization of Grunts to feel "powerful", while supposedly being a weak man on his own, and from there he expresses that he wants to be nothing like Giovanni, who derives his strength not from himself but from having a large gang of Grunts to do his bidding, and he wants to be strong all on his own terms.

His obsession with pursuing strength and dislike for the weak stems from that, and he's so fixated on his Pokemon being "strong" and picking the best of the best Pokemon, trying to become a strong Trainer on his own terms, but initially he falls into the trap that his father does, in that he doesn't treat his Pokemon well in doing so, just like how Giovanni basically just uses his team for his own gain. Silver learning how to become kinder and more caring towards his Pokemon, and accepting them as his friends and partners, not only allows him to truly achieve better strength, but is what ultimately does separate him from Giovanni and allow him to become strong on his own, and not like Giovanni who straight up just uses his team and his Pokemon without caring that much about them, seeing them as merely tools for his own benefit.
 
IMO the easy way to have fixed the level curve in HGSS would have been to force the player to complete the Cianwood City SecretPotion quest - and the gym too - as a condition of going to Mahogany Town (or at the very least meeting Lance at the Lake of Rage). This would have ensured Pryce's levels would have been higher (his team is on par with Chuck's; HGSS boosted him but he's still weaker overall than Jasmine).

Doing this would have been incredibly easy; we all know how much Pokemon loves its broken bridges. You could have blocked the gate leading east from Ecruteak with sightseers eager to get to the LoR and see the rumoured Gyarados rampage. Hell, you could even have forced the player to go to the Safari Zone west of Cianwood after it opens up once you've beaten Chuck to find the medicine guy and make him return to his shop.

But that would detract from the exploratory non-linear feel the originals had, and I also feel like they didn't want to muck with the original storyline too much. Which is a pity as I genuinely feel this would have strengthened the plot overall, while also allowing the designers to bump up the levels of Pryce, Clair, the Rockets in the Radio Tower, etc. The remakes just kind of flippantly go "oh yeah the Safari Zone is there, you can go check it out... if you want to, I guess". And for all that they're pretty and have a wonderful musical accompaniment Route 47 and 48 end up being kind of forgettable as a result.
 
IMO the easy way to have fixed the level curve in HGSS would have been to force the player to complete the Cianwood City SecretPotion quest - and the gym too - as a condition of going to Mahogany Town (or at the very least meeting Lance at the Lake of Rage). This would have ensured Pryce's levels would have been higher (his team is on par with Chuck's; HGSS boosted him but he's still weaker overall than Jasmine).

I'd say the intended route is that you first battle Pryce (as it's the closest body of water), then you head to Cianwood, then Olivine, and then you deal with Team Rocket.

But, from what I understand (and my own experience), no one ever does that.
 
I'd say the intended route is that you first battle Pryce (as it's the closest body of water), then you head to Cianwood, then Olivine, and then you deal with Team Rocket.

But, from what I understand (and my own experience), no one ever does that.

I mean, I'm going by the official badge numbering, in which Chuck is 5, Jasmine 6, and Pryce 7. But as they can be fought in any order all ways are viable/valid.

Funnily enough the reverse is true in RBY where you can do the gyms in nearly any order you like (albeit you must beat Misty to access Surge and you must beat Koga to access Blaine), but the levels of the Gym Leaders plainly spell out the order they're meant to be fought in.
 
Unpopular opinion, though one that might be more sympathetic here on Smogon: I really, really like Pokemon Battle Revolution. I understand why it did poorly; however, it caters exclusively to one type of player - the competitive battler - and I happen to be that type. Besides the animations being gorgeous (somewhat infamously, now, thanks to Sword/Shield) and the announcer being, well, the announcer, the postgame facilities are actually an incredible challenge. They force you to not only have properly EV'd/IV'd Pokemon, but to actually teambuild as well, a feat that I think is only matched by XD's Orre Colosseum which uses the still-somewhat-clunky ADV mechanics. It also used the battle format of bring-6-pick-4 with team preview (also introduced in XD), which of course is now the standard for Game Freak's official competitive format.
 
Unpopular opinion, though one that might be more sympathetic here on Smogon: I really, really like Pokemon Battle Revolution. I understand why it did poorly; however, it caters exclusively to one type of player - the competitive battler - and I happen to be that type. Besides the animations being gorgeous (somewhat infamously, now, thanks to Sword/Shield) and the announcer being, well, the announcer, the postgame facilities are actually an incredible challenge. They force you to not only have properly EV'd/IV'd Pokemon, but to actually teambuild as well, a feat that I think is only matched by XD's Orre Colosseum which uses the still-somewhat-clunky ADV mechanics. It also used the battle format of bring-6-pick-4 with team preview (also introduced in XD), which of course is now the standard for Game Freak's official competitive format.
I think this is the first genuine defense of PBR I've seen, as opposed to the reactionary "re-evaluation" PBR received during the SwSh prerelease.
 
Anyone feel like a lot of Gen 2 mons don't really....follow up design wise to Gen 1 mons?

I feel that was on purpose. With Gen I generally going for more "realistic" designs, for Gen II they did some more "fantastic" designs; probably out of a feeling they need to have something about the new Pokemon to stand them out when next to the previous mons.

  • Sentret isn't just a ferret, it's a ferret that acts like a watchtower by standing on its tail.
  • Hoothoot isn't just an owl, it's an owl that stands on one foot all the time.
  • Ledyba isn't just a ladybug, it's a ladybug that's wearing gloves & evolves into an alien superhero.
  • Spinarak isn't just a spider, it's a spider with a frowny face that evolves into a spider who's font looks like its back.
  • Natu isn't just a bird, it's also a totem pole.
  • Mareep isn't just a sheep, it's a lighthouse.
  • Sudowoodo isn't a Grass-type, it's a Rock-type pretending to be a Grass-type.
  • Aipom isn't just a monkey, it's a monkey with a hand on its tail.
  • Murkrow isn't just a crow, it's also a witch/part of organized crime.
  • Girfaraig isn't just a giraffe, its got a second head growing from it's tail.
  • Gligar isn't a scorpion, it's a flying scorpion.
  • Remoraid isn't just a fish, it's also a gun.
  • etc., etc.
 
That's one of the points that HGSS excels that I see few people bringing it up, you get the most out of it by using the new added mechanics like the Pokewalker. Grinding for Red wasn't even necessary since the improved Kanto level curve (and a stronger E4 rematch) was enough to level up my team.
I never used the Pokéwalker all that much when I played HG/SS (only for around a week for SoulSilver back when the game was still new). I think it was a cool idea with a poor execution, like far too much else in the Johto games. I thought it was too inconvenient to send Pokémon from my game to the Pokéwalker so I lost interest in using it pretty quickly.

Either way, I remember back from when I played HG/SS, my teams had barely reached level 60 when I had beaten all Gyms and regular trainers in Kanto. And this was even if I had grinded my teams to level 50 before taking on the E4 the first time. Though I should mention that I did not rebattle any trainers through the PokéGear since I found the whole method to be very badly executed. I could never bother with giving the E4 rematches or Red a chance with my in-game teams either since my teams were at too low levels and I had no motivation to grind them to higher levels because of the bad training spots. Though I should mention that I was very burnt out on Pokémon at the time, which was also a contributing factor.
Regarding GSC/HGSS's level curve, while I agree Johto's level curve is very flawed, I think there is one big way to work with the level curve and the structure of the game as a whole. One thing I did in my latest run of HeartGold is that once I had the means to do so, I went out of my way to explore the region's caves and side dungeons. Dark Cave, Union Cave, Mt. Mortar, Whirl Islands, etc. The games ever since GSC itself have more or less taken it as a given that once you have a certain HM, you backtrack and go access locations you didn't have access to beforehand. Union Cave, for example, has the lower floors inaccessible until you get Surf. Once you get Strength, you can get to Route 46 through Dark Cave and find a few Trainers there. In both cases, not only do you find a handful of Trainers, you can also find a handful of Pokemon you wouldn't be able to find otherwise. The Trainers are all in the mid 20's roughly, and in some cases the 30's when you get Waterfall. Union Cave, Whirl Islands, and Mt. Mortar all have wild mons in the mid 20's, and given you can go to the lower floors of Union Cave and Mt. Mortar as soon as you get Surf, while the mons on the main path are all in the lower levels, this is pretty nice for grinding purposes to get EXP faster when necessary. Route 34 also has a few Ace Trainers across the lake who make for a bit of good grinding too once you get Surf.
I did the same thing when I played HG/SS and I still had to grind a lot against wild Pokémon, notably before the E4. Though I should note that I played both games with a full team of 6, which might have required more training than if I had used less than 6 Pokémon. But at the same time, I did not have that much of a problem grinding in most other games where I also played with full teams of 6 Pokémon (except for in Sword where I used 15 Pokémon during the main game, this was to avoid being overleveled because of the mandatory Exp. Share). So I think this is mostly a fault with the Johto games themselves due to their bad level curve and lack of good training spots. Doing everything in the optional areas never really helped me all that much.
I think one overlooked thing HGSS does that helps with leveling a lot compared to GSC is that it allows you to get almost every Pokegear number you can get, so you can have every rematchable Trainer's number at once, and once you have eight badges and before the League you can call all of them (or they call you) for rematches, and that can help a lot with grinding levels. They level up again after beating the League, which is good grinding before you head into Kanto, and those Trainers are stronger than in GSC so they give you more experience. And there are even more rematchable Trainers in Kanto who offer that extra EXP when you call them for rematches too, and after 16 badges everyone upgrades their teams again, which also adds some sweet EXP too. Another cool thing is the Gym Leader rematches: this is one of the most praised things about HGSS, but it's not only incredibly fun to rematch Gym Leaders, it's also a great source of grinding, especially in tandem with the upgraded Elite Four rematch teams. This means getting to the right levels for Red is even easier than ever with so many new sources of grinding EXP to gain levels.

Granted, there is one problem which is that you have to wait until a certain time of day and a certain day of the week to rematch certain batches of Trainers (or manipulate the system clock accordingly), which makes this less convenient than DPP's Vs. Seeker, but I think it offers a very good source of grinding experience all the same, and using it as a source of grinding is not only fun but helps with EXP gain all that much more easily.
I so wish I could like this system, but it is just too badly executed for my tastes. The only way I could get it to work was by writing down a list of all trainers that could be rebattled, their location, and when they could be rebattled, then print this list and have it by my side when I played. But even so, it was still extremely annoying to use. The Gym Leaders being tied to the same system wasn't very fun either. But at the same time, I don't think any Pokémon game so far have gotten a perfect execution of Gym Leader rematches, they could all have done it better IMO.

Apart from that, the only other way I got the level curve and training spots in HG/SS to work was through trading over Pokémon from other games to let them get boosted Exp. When I played through my second copy of HeartGold, I used a team of three, two of which were from a different game. With that team, I didn't have to grind at all and was at level 50 without issues when I got to the E4. Though I am pretty sure I explored most optional areas during that playthrough. During the post-game of my main files, I used new teams of three Pokémon on each game (my training squads, as I have named them) when I decided to go back and finally try to complete the Pokédex in 2015. As for these Pokémon, I had previously trained them to level 70 on Platinum before I traded over them to HG/SS. Once I had completed the Pokédex, they were all close to level 90 thanks to all the grinding they had gotten as a bonus along the way. So that's how I got it to work. In the end, I found it to be much more annoying to train Pokémon on HG/SS than in any other Pokémon games to date.

I'm not sure if experience groups really matter, but for reference, here are the Pokémon I used:

In-game teams:
SoulSilver: :Feraligatr: :Ampharos: :Heracross: :Espeon: :Nidoking: :Farfetch'd:
HeartGold: :Typhlosion: :Vileplume: :Primeape: :Lanturn: :Dodrio: :Mamoswine:

Post-game training squads:
SoulSilver: :Metagross: :Mismagius: :Togekiss:
HeartGold: :Salamence: :Milotic: :Infernape:

And I really wanted to include them somewhere just for fun.

Ultimately, I guess we have different experiences with HG/SS and how we played them, which is one of the reasons as for why we have different opinions on them.

Sorry for the somewhat late replies, but I wanted to try to let this discussion continue a bit further.
I also liked how Johto-native Pokémon had a friendlier look to them, something that wasn't fully established until Hoenn.
This is a very interesting point. I have never really thought about this before, but now that I do, I realize that you are completely right. The Gen 1 Pokémon do for the most part not look very friendly. Especially not in early art and sprites, newer art and sprites made them look a bit more friendly. In comparison, the Pokémon from Gen 2 and especially from Gen 3 and on generally look a lot more friendly. Even when it comes to the Pokémon from Gen 2-8 that don't look friendly, they still look a lot more appealing compared to the unfriendly Pokémon from Gen 1. That's my opinion at least. I guess this is yet another reason as for why Gen 1 has my least favorite designs on the whole, many of the Gen 1 Pokémon do just not look friendly enough for my tastes.
 
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