This isn't exactly a movepool oddity, but one thing I noticed is that most of the Pokemon with Moxie also have Intimidate as an alternate ability. Namely Salamence, Gyarados, Mightyena, Scrafty, and Krookodile have both Moxie and Intimidate as options. Only Pinsir, Honchkrow, and Pyroar have Moxie but not Intimidate.
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Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations
- Thread starter Kurona
- Start date
Heracross gets Moxie but not Intimidate as well. Interestingly, you could probably make the case for Pinsir, Honchkrow and Pyroar being "intimidating" in their own way.
Oops, I skipped over Heracross when looking through the Pokemon with Moxie. Bulbapedia says that the Japanese name for Moxie translates to "Overconfident," and I guess you could argue that when something is Intimidating and they know it, they might feel pretty powerful and somewhat overconfident.
I think that's a totally valid interpretation and we might be... both right?
My thing is, and I usually dislike when people do this line of argument but I feel it fits here, is if it were truly just making a larger mirage of your head for intimidation / unnerving purposes, Stantler should really learn it. I think it works to highlight this because Stantler is a Gen II Pokémon and Night Shade is the gen where they gave this move to a wide variety of types, and particularly because Hoothoot learns Night Shade yet Stantler doesn't. Hoothoot and Stantler have fundamentally similar design concepts and their movepools reflect this, as both learn Hypnosis, Dream Eater, and Nightmare. In fact, they're the only non-occult (Ghost- or Psychic-Type Pokémon) to hold this distinction, besides Persian who does so via breeding with Stantler itself. Not only that but their movepools are very similar -- Hoothoot learns Hypnosis at level 16 while Stantler learns it at level 15, and both Stantler and Noctowl learn Take Down as one of their last attacking moves (for some reason the Hoothoot family learns Confusion really late but that's it).
The distinction between their movesets is that Stantler learns Confuse Ray, while Hoothoot learns Night Shade. Confuse Ray is used by morphing the world around the two combatants, which is what Stantler's dex entries state that it does.
"The curved antlers subtly change the flow of air to create a strange space where reality is distorted." - Gold.
By contrast, it's implied that Night Shade is a more direct telepathic hit that does not distort space, as Stantler does not learn it. I'd argue this is consolidated by the Noctowl family's later addition of Extrasensory, a move with an extremely heavy association with telepathy in its own right. The Pokémon who learn Extrasensory are things like Ninetales (kitsune are telepathic), the legendary beasts (telepathic in movies), the legendary birds, the Lake Guardians, Reshiram and Landorus / Tornadus (but not Thundurus). If Noctowl can learn Extrasensory, it is telepathic in its own right, and that could go further to prove this distinction between Night Shade and Confuse Ray. After all, Stantler can only learn Extrasensory via breeding with a Pokémon that already has telepathy, similar to it learning Disable via breeding.
This feels like a maths problem, but I'd basically argue that this is a proof that there is a distinction between Confuse Ray and Night Shade, and that the surrounding material argues that Confuse Ray distorts space around the opponents where Night Shade does not, and is therefore still a telepathic hit. Noctowl has never learned Confuse Ray, besides, and that's relevant because it demonstrates that it doesn't have spacial distorting capabilities, and so its Hypnosis capabilities have to be telepathic. The animation in gens 3-5 can be chalked up to what is a valid use of doing this, which is making the user seem more intimidating or dangerous than it really is. That would certainly explain Pokémon like Ariados learning it, as a reference to arachnophobia, but it's not the only way that the power could be used, keeping the explanation relevant to other Pokémon that learn it like Noctowl, Deoxys, Sableye, Jellicent, and Cofagrigus.
But I mean, this information is entirely just not given to us. I think the simplest explanation is that it was never documented how exactly this move works, as you said yourself lol. I just feel that the name coincidence combined with all of this working out really does argue that it is telepathy-based.
On the note of abilities, why do Honedge/Doublade get only No Guard? They don't benefit from it*, and yet they're the only No Guard pokes without a second ability other than Mega-Pidge. It doesn't even feel like an intentional nerf, more like GF just forgot to give them a hidden ability.
*Metal Sound, Fury Cutter, Cut, Toxic, Swagger and Rock Slide are the only moves they get at less than 100% accuracy, and most of those are unusable AND 90%. They don't even get Will-o-wisp.
*Metal Sound, Fury Cutter, Cut, Toxic, Swagger and Rock Slide are the only moves they get at less than 100% accuracy, and most of those are unusable AND 90%. They don't even get Will-o-wisp.
I don't think they forgot to give them a Hidden Ability, they just opted not to give them one at all because of Aegislash only having one, signature ability.
As for why they chose No Guard, my guess is because it's supposed to reference how they don't have a shield...and then when it evolves, it gets one. Not a good reason, but a reason.
What's this about Confuse Ray distorting space? I'm pretty sure it's just disorienting light.
Hm, you're right but Stantler still creates that light through distorting space, I think. It has no other light source. The ultimate point is that Confuse Ray affects the world around the combat, where Night Shade doesn't.
While the manga that you found was an interesting I don't think it would be what GF were thinking.
I'm more willing to bet GF were maybe more thinking about something like the Rokurokubi, the Nukekubi variant specifically. They are heads which detach and fly around at night causing mischief (hence Night Head). I think the idea is that the Pokemon creatures an illusion of its head either growing big or flung toward the target.
How does this relate to Chatot? Well, Chatot's head looks very distinct from its body, so if it could disorient you and than just fly forward menacingly it could look like the head is growing bigger & coming towards you. It's a stretch, but being its an Egg Move I feel that works as its not a natural skill but one developed through other means.
Why was it translated as Night Shade in the US? Probably not understanding the context of the attack (or they did but didn't think that interpretation would translate well for Western audiences), being its a Ghost-type, has to do with night, and is an illusion of some kind, they instead kept "night" and swapped it out for another ghostly being, a shade (and of course there's the fun pun too). It still works in context, seeing a shade which is a shadowy figure of a person you knew is supposed to be a frightening sight.
Not sure why the anime went with black laser beams, maybe the animators didn't understand the context either or didn't know how to present it so went with something easier to animate.
On the contrary, I think that's a pretty good explanation.
"Distorting space" is meant to be taken figuratively. It's not distorting space like Palkia can, it's using its antlers to cause an illusion which makes it look like space is distorting. And if it can do that, it can surely create illusion of lights.
Also, how many Pokemon learn Flash for no reason other than to make it available with most Pokemon back when it was a HM? Seems like many Pokemon are able to generate light likely my just manipulating their elemental energy.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Rhydon: can learn all manner of elemental moves, from Thunderbolt to Fire Blast to Surf to Ice Beam, Icy Wind, Avalanche, and Blizzard. Can correspondingly learn Fire Fang, Thunder Fang, Ice Fang, as well as Fire Punch and Thunderpunch... but it couldn't learn Ice Punch till Gen IV. Wonder why not?
EDIT: Looking down the list of who learns it, there's a few other gaps: Chansey and Tyranitar also acquired Ice Punch in Gen IV, Politoed and Delibird only gained it in Gen V, and Deoxys-S could learn it in Gen III but not in IV before regaining it.
EDIT: Looking down the list of who learns it, there's a few other gaps: Chansey and Tyranitar also acquired Ice Punch in Gen IV, Politoed and Delibird only gained it in Gen V, and Deoxys-S could learn it in Gen III but not in IV before regaining it.
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I would avoid bothering with gen 1 pokemon TM shenenigans: lot of gen 1 and 2 pokemon learned a large amount of TMs for gameplay reasoning which had nothing to do with lore and were just left there over time.
Like how Blissey can use Flamethrower, and how Tauros can use Flamethrower, and how Dunsparce can use Flamethrower and so on and so forth. A lot of early Pokemon have access to moves that make little to no sense for really no reason.
I think it's less "why does it learn all these moves" and more "why doesn't it learn Ice Punch until gen 4, when it learns the other ice moves"
The a nswer to which is probably just "continual oversight". Guessing it got added in gen 4 since that was when they were implementing the physical/special split and the fangs, someone finally saw the odd gap and went "oh! whoops"
I think the main reasoning is something like this: in gen 3 when they started actually thinking movesets over, they didn't feel the need to fix old ones (still haven't cause they don't want to "remove" moves from learnsets most of the time unless really necessary).
However when pyhs/special split happened in gen 4 they were like "well, this shit already learns a bunch of elemental stuff, might as well actually give it the elemental punches since it can actually use its high attack"
Are we still talking about Chansey?
EDIT: Huh, not only did it not receive Ice Punch until Gen 4, it didn't get any of the elemental punches until Gen 4.
On the high attack comment... no, I'm stupid and for some reason my mind thought of RHYPERIOR of all things.
Don't ask me where that came from. I have no clue myself
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Yep, I just caught a Shellder in Yellow and taught it Teleport so I'm not arguing
This is probably the most likely explanation tbh, much as with Delibird and Politoed receiving it in Gen V.
It probably has to do with the fact that Rhydon is "monster/beast" type Pokemon.
In many literature/media, monsters can breathe fire/use elemental attacks.
others: aggron, Taurus, nidoking...and so on
In general, the type of animal of Pokemon is determines its moves
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QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
That wasn't what I was questioning.
Shellder getting Teleport is fascinating and somewhat hilarious to me. I imagine it just shutting its shell and magically dipping out of there.
Arcanine also has access to Teleport, for some reason. Same with Electivire, and Magmortar...I never realized just how weird move distribution is for gen 1 Mons
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
I can literally rationalise any other Pokemon. Even Arcanine. I imagine it running in a circle at top speed until it travels back in time like Superman and zips you to the place you want. Everything else that gets it in Gen I can use various other psychokinetic moves. But Shellder getting it is just so bizarre.
The Mind Electric
Calming if you look at it right.
Shellder actually evolves into Cloyster when it teleports to a bigger shell.
Another possible explanation for Rhydon not getting Ice Punch, and I noticed this for a few other Pokemon, is that since its weak to Ice it likely wouldn't use a "physical" move which requires its body to be covered with the element that hurts it. Sure it can create a cold wind, but it doesn't have to be physically touching it while Ice Punch has always been presented as the Pokemon covering its fist with ice.
"Um, Rhydon learns Surf" Yes, there will always be exceptions especially for HMs required to beat the game. But if you want me to Tauros Mulch something up, it could be that in-battle Rhydon is either just launching the water wave or riding on top of it having minimal interaction with the water as possible while Ice Punch is a more close contact move where the ice isn't just covering the surface layer but ice energy is also surging through the Pokemon's hand. Rhydon's armor is strong enough for it to choose to wade in water, but it's not strong enough if the water is blasted against it or has to also channel the energy of the move its normally weak against through parts of its body (cause at that points its under the armor).
As for the others:
- Chansey isn't a Physical fighter so wouldn't learn punching moves (yes, I know categories went by Type and not context in Gen I - III but that doesn't mean GF weren't thinking like that).
- Tyranitar is mostly based on fire-breathing kaiju, they weren't even thinking anything about Ice with it originally and when it did it was just the general Ice Beam & Blizzard.
- Politoed hands were seen made for slapping.
- Delibird is a bird, sure it uses its wings as arms but at that time not really looked as punching quality.
- Deoxys sounds like an oversight.
Since the only Pokemon that can learn Teleport naturally are Psychic-types and all other examples are TMs, maybe for the non-Psychic-types they aren't exactly using psychic powers to Teleport but are using their connection to their Poke Ball to just recall them back into it. It looks like its teleporting but its just going back inside its Pokeball. For Wild Pokemon that leaves them confused and think the battle is over. It originally failed in Trainer Battles before Let's Go because it was considered the Pokemon forfeiting the battle, however starting from Let's Go (and in the core series SwSh) it has been ruled as just a variant of a switching move.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
I think it's even more simple than that tbh; all the Pokemon which learn Teleport by TM (Porygon, Chansey, Clefairy, etc) can all use Psychic moves and tap into that slightly mystical, otherworldly energy. Even Magneton has that strange, mysterious vibe to it which sort of fits.