Pokemon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl - Release 19th Nov 2021

[Pikachu315111]

Here's part 2. Kept you waiting one whole post.

I know I'm going to be hated for saying this, but Forced Exp Share isn't too bad if the game is balanced around it. It wouldn't be half as hated if Gen 6 hadn't screwed it up when they changed it from held item to key item.

I'm also optimistic about reusable TMs (because I'm way too optimistic and/or hungry for angry arguments) if you really can get all of them multiple times, even if most are just post game. I'm okay with breakable TMs for in game and having to think carefully about who to use them on, but they were also practically unusable because I had to save them for Pokemon I'd in the post game like my Rayquaza from Emerald.

Hate to disappoint, but nothing here that'll get you hated.

Of course if the game was built around Exp. Share All it wouldn't be a problem. But that's not the case here. We're going by DP progression which wasn't built with Exp. Share All in mind, if you thought SwSh was too easy which was built with it in mind than DP is gonna be a steamroller.

I guess in retrospect one-use TMs aren't so bad cause these games are a very faithful DP remake so that balance with TMs is now still there. But, that's always been one of my arguments about BDSP. The point of the remakes so far has been bringing the old games on equal level to the current generation they were released during as well as adding new material to expand upon them.

FRLG is RSE's version of Kanto.
HGSS is DPPt's version of Johto.
ORAS is XY's version of Hoenn.

But BDSP is NOT SwSh's version of Sinnoh. BDSP is DPPt's Sinnoh with a 3D facelift. They're using different graphics but instead trying to recreate Gen IV's sprites in 3D, not trying to expand the material, and go our of their way to backstep progress that has been made in the franchise.

Anyways, let's chill out for a second. While EXP All is a bummer, they thankfully brought back the single most important part of DPPt, the defining feature that catapulted that generation to prominence as a series classic.

It's back.

View attachment 377450

BADGE POLISHING IS BACK?! That's... THAT'S... THAT'S...

nice.

I'm gonna be the devil's advocate here in that people did complain that infinite use TMs made the game's item management too easy.

... Who? And it took them 3 gens to fix it?

Nah, they're going back to one-use TMs because they don't want to rebalance the TMs you get throughout the game.

I genuinely feel like the creators of these games are totally oblivious to what fans want.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, I'm laying all these odd choices at the feet of Masuda.

It also makes it feel a bit... inconsistent? If you assume one-use TMs were kept to preserve the original, literally why do an entirely new area of catchable pokémon, revert the exp share, and add mobile PC?

It's not about balance, it's about not wanting to RE-balance. Infinite TMs means they need to go through all the TMs and figure out a good power & use progression as soon as you can access that TM.

I'm sick of it all. Honestly. When you play other games and see devs trying out new things, devs trying to optimize good things, devs that actively work for a better experience, you look back at this franchise and see just how completely fucked it is.

Make it make sense. Tell me. Explain it to me how one would to a child. How can I ever look forward to a game on this franchise? It's an endless tango of mediocrity. One step forward, one step back. All. The. Damn. Time.

I know we've had our differences, and we've had our potshots at one another, but believe me, I know how you feel. Not trying to be condescending, you have every right to be angry because it doesn't make sense why the company in charge of one of the biggest game franchises can't get a simple remake right. How each new gen it feels like a game of "good news, bad news" where every good thing you hear has a bad thing just around the corner. A mechanic you liked removed (and possibly replaced with what you feel is an inferior one), them finally adding some much wanted QoL stuff but they've put it behind some tedious grind for no particular reason.

So, why do we keep coming back when time and time again GF keeps disappointing us? Well, each person would have their own answer, but here's mine. I don't like Pokemon because of GF, Arceus know, I like Pokemon because it's Pokemon. I like the world. I like the characters, both the Pokemon and human characters. I like the feeling of the game, starting up a new game and going out on a simple RPG adventure cataloguing & training these colorful & creative monsters which wield the elements. I like in the post game looking back at all the Pokemon I got and accomplishments I have done. The Pokemon franchise has so much potential and a great community behind it, be they a forum dedicated to competitive battling or a social platform where people share their artwork and other creative works. Yes, it's sad the main devs behind Pokemon seem to be spinning their wheels, but as long as the Pokemon games can give me that feeling that I had when I was a kid, going out and exploring this modern fantast world where I'm a kid controlling elemental monsters, then you know what, I'm willing to give Pokemon another chance. Maybe I'll get a at most dull experience like in SwSh, or maybe I'll get an amazing one like with BW. Pokemon may not do everything right, but for me it always has something worth coming back to. I guess in a way you can say it's like a safety blanket, a game series I know that even I don't like the game title I'm playing it has a comforting feeling just being based upon the Pokemon world.

I agree with everything you just said. Please take a break from this franchise/forum.

I'm definitely doing it. Straight up.

If you're truly feeling exhausted maybe this is the best choice.

While we fought, at the same time I could tell you were REALLY pulling for these games. And while we argued, I did honestly want to be wrong. Admittedly I know you'd gloat and that might have gotten a bit on my nerve, but I'd rather see someone happy about the game they were really supporting being good and worth all the hype (and thus I also have a game to look forward to getting) than it not and fans of it feeling as you are now.

Off topic but cyrus is the funniest antagonist in this franchise from the sheer absurdity of his goals with no proper explanation. He decided he just was bored of our world and said "alright im gonna make a new one". Not even his grunts know what the fuck hes about.

They try to go into Cyrus's reasoning, or at least his backstory, in Platinum but still didn't really do that great of a job.

Probably stepping into dangerous territory here, but I would not be surprised if Cyrus was a high functioning autistic (and I say this as such a person, I have what was used to be known as Asperger Syndrome (though they use a different term now as the doctor its named after wasn't that nice of a guy)). As The Mind Electric said, Pokemon has a problem of presenting itself as a paradise because a lot of the times the villains plans is about a darker side of the Pokemon world we're just told about but never shown. I think this might be especially the case with Cyrus, where he sees problems with the world that just logically don't make sense and the only reason it just doesn't get fixed is because people rely on their emotions. People with autism tend to be emotionally stunted, we have a hard time understanding people on the emotional level. Those high functioning in particular prefer to see things through more logical means. But that's not how the world works. If people were logical we wouldn't have all sorts of lovely problems we're now facing (not going to get into it here, just watch the news, actually better yet don't). But most people are emotional beings and often choose their emotions over common sense or what's better for themselves & everyone. If Cyrus was living in the real world I would totally see why he would want to reset our universe, I've felt like that sometime when I read something incredibly stupid. Of course, I was raised by parents, family, and people who loved & cared about me and my interests are in media where the hero does the right thing (and you are the hero of your own story). This is where we get back to what they tried to do in Platinum, it's explained Cyrus's parents didn't really care about him and left him to his own interests which was with building & programming machines. Cyrus did not have loving support and so separated himself from humanity, making him further unable to understand people and why they do the stupid and horrible things they do. He felt alone in a world of illogical emotion and couldn't escape... so why not make his own perfect universe? Who cares if it kills everyone, he was already alone, if he became the maker of his own universe he could do whatever he wants without interference of emotional idiots, maybe even make a new race of beings which were only logic-based and no emotion. Thus why the emotionless man decided to commit universal genocide. Hm, thinking about it, think maybe Xenoblade Chronicles did the idea better with... well... that would be a spoiler but let's just say there's something about a character wanting universal genocide that was done better in Xenoblade Chronicles.

 

[Wukong]

I just want one game in this franchise that I don't have to mod extensively or straight up cheat in because of horrendously STUPID design decisions.

Platinum does come THIS close to be just... good.

I agree with your sentiment of disappoint towards modern Pokémon games. However, I disagree with a game like Platinum being characterized as just barely good. Games like it and Emerald are flat out great to me, up there with the likes of Majora's Mask and Metroid Fusion (highly underrated) as some of my all time favorite games. Even if they're not objectively better video games, the best Pokémon games are immensely enjoyable so I'm at least thankful GF churned those out once upon a time.

But I am also resigned to the fact that GF will most likely never reach those heights again, with the design choices they've made with BDSP probably being the final nail in the coffin for me. I myself will be taking an elongated break from this franchise/forums soon. Kind of just tuned back in for the shit show after the Exp. All reveal. I have to say - I wasn't disappointed by that at least.

 

[Sirya]

Let's see.

Theoretically, we, the ones that lost hope in Game Freak years ago, are the ones that should just "chill" when we expose everything lazy about this company, but then everyone else who does not get angry when the news inevitably reveal that the games have zero effort put into them.

The only thing these games will acomplish is the bare minimum exigible. It's clear that Legend Arceus is wherr theyve put the interest. Ffs, if GF giving the development of SDBP to a third company wasnt enough to understand this...

Ill enjoy the games since I didnt expect anything. These are games with 0 ambition and after rolling the credits whats left to you is shiny hunting, which would be fine if the games had enough bulk in their main story to make it great enough to finish them and retain a feeling of sincere satistaction about the adventure, but no.

These games where inferior to Platinum from the beginning. Id understand ppl who is angry at this from the beginning, but ill never understand ppl who for some reason had hope and now are opening their eyes at the inevitable truth.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Cyrus is basically a bootleg Kefka, except that Kefka is a compelling and entertaining character. Honestly, Cyrus is probably the best allegory for modern Pokemon: kinda boring, makes questionable decisions, but has a cool boss theme.

This post is amazing, take your well-deserved Love reaction.

EXP Share always being on is technically nothing new but at the same time, like TME and others said, nobody asked for it. It’s not difficult to implement an off switch. I’m all for making games accessible - Pokémon honestly needs to take more cues from Kirby except for the nightmare fuel - but this is the worst way of making a game easier.

I won’t be surprised if in two generations we have a bootleg Super Trainer / Super Guide mode that literally beats the game for you. Just because these games are aimed at kids doesn’t mean the developers have to patronize them. That said, the original level curve in DP WAS pretty stupid at the end, but there’s a magical solution to this: turn the EXP Share on at the end.

But no, we HAVE to be overleveled so we can get our borderline participation trophy credits.

This makes Black and White 1 look like Platinum / USUM, and I poke fun at the back half of the Gyms of BW1 a lot (save Clay).

 

[Ironmage]

Pokémon honestly needs to take more cues from Kirby except for the nightmare fuel - but this is the worst way of making a game easier.

As a longtime Kirby fan, this has arguably been my position with pokemon games even if I didn't make the connection until now. Even if the main game is relatively short and easy, I end up getting a lot of time and enjoyment out of postgame content like the Arenas, which are usually no joke even with some of the stronger abilities. Which, if you replace "Arenas" with "Battle Frontier," is pretty much my position on pokemon as well.

Though I think we disagree on how much nightmare fuel pokemon should have. Eldritch creatures are a lot more interesting than yet another rodent.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

However, I disagree with a game like Platinum being characterized as just barely good.

Text communication does screw up sometimes, that italics emphasizing "Good" were supposed to show that it was really close to being a great, consistent experience instead of a great experience with some bumpy moments.

Also, I forgot.

The Regi Rooms only activate when you get Regigigas... Which is an event mon.

It's a cluster of tiny little things that good remakes usually handle, and even bad ones do, like how BDSP is running much faster on a better engine and how it solved the HM issues.

up there with the likes of Majora's Mask and Metroid Fusion (highly underrated) as some of my all time favorite games.

You got good taste fam. Majora's is the best classic 3D Zelda and Fusion is pretty sick too.

Btw, since you liked Fusion... get Dread.

Matter of fact, all of y'all should get Metroid Dread.

 

[AquaticPanic]

But I am also resigned to the fact that GF will most likely never reach those heights again, with the design choices they've made with BDSP probably being the final nail in the coffin for me.

Odd nail to close the coffin with when BDSP isn't even made by GameFreak

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Personally, BDSP hasn't killed any hope for me with regards to the franchise as a whole since I never had particularly high expectations for it to begin with. I have said it before, but with Legends being announced alongside BDSP my hopes were always on Legends since it's clear that's the main project Game Freak is concerned about right now, and the one that has the bulk of the ambition of it. Legends: Arceus is still on the horizon right now, and I am entirely banking my hopes on that particular game, and would be more disappointed if they drop the ball on that rather than this.

I always suspected or assumed that BDSP and Legends manifested as two separate products intended for different target audiences, and the recent news merely reinforced, if not outright confirmed, my suspicions that this is the case. Playing a little bit of devil's advocate here, no intention of defending how BDSP turned out btw, but I honestly think BDSP will, for the most part, appeal to two particular audiences:

- New kids. Kids who first entered Pokemon via Let's Go or Sword and Shield, and this game will be their first time experiencing Sinnoh.
- Nostalgics. People who grew up with the original Diamond and Pearl but haven't played a Pokemon game in over a decade, and want a sweet nostalgia trip to relive the good old days.

Now I may be reaching here, but the big point with these two audiences is that I suspect that a large portion of the people who comprise BDSP's intended target audiences are probably more casual. People who are less likely to be seriously invested in games as a whole, less likely to play through postgame content let alone competitive as a whole, less likely to talk about games, less likely to come on Smogon, let alone Reddit or Twitter, etc. So a lot of the people who will likely end up buying and liking BDSP are a more casual audience. I hate to admit it, but the truth of the matter is that a large portion of the many millions who buy Pokemon games are casual, and BDSP seems to almost exclusively appeal to that side of the audience: us serious gamers/Pokemon enjoyers are less likely to get anything out of this that we want.

Now granted, I know the former audience (the new Pokemon kids) probably does have a lot of more serious Pokemon players, but in this case, that means BDSP has one function for these kids: to be an entry ticket into Sinnoh for the upcoming Legends: Arceus, which is not only Game Freak's golden boy between the two, but this basically serves as an entry game for the new kids to further incentivize them to buy Legends: Arceus a few months later, since that's the main project between the two. In other words, for those kids who are on their way to being more serious Pokemon fans, BDSP is the appetizer, and then Legends becomes the full course meal for them.

Now of course, I am hoping they don't drop the ball on Legends, and I would be very sad if they did. The only reason I'm hooked into this gen mainly is because SwSh's DLC showed a ton of promise and that Game Freak has potential to do great things if they build on the promise they had with IoA and Crown Tundra, and fortunately Legends seems to be building on that promise, for the most part. But obviously Legends: Arceus is the game that will have significantly more appeal to the more core/serious Pokemon audience, since it's the more ambitious and unique game of the two. My hopes are, and still are, banked entirely on Legends: Arceus. BDSP is playing the safe card for casual audiences, but Legends is a far bigger deal and is taking a risk, and I would be more let down if L:A drops the ball rather than BDSP, because Legends has largely won me over thus far, and I hope they don't shatter my hope I have for Legends.

 

[Siggu]

Outside of the single-use TMs (and even that may change depending on details) and the lack of compatibility with HOME on launch, I'm fine with BDSP so far. Not particularly impressed, but with the Mobile PC I'm bound to have a good time using practically every Pokémon I like in the Sinnoh dex at the same time. And without the huge pacing issues that make the Gen IV games borderline unplayable without fast-forward.

Isn't it funny that the super-safe third-party remake is astronomically more appealing than the grand mistake experiment mistake that is Legends?

 

[DrumstickGaming]

As a longtime Kirby fan, this has arguably been my position with pokemon games even if I didn't make the connection until now. Even if the main game is relatively short and easy, I end up getting a lot of time and enjoyment out of postgame content like the Arenas, which are usually no joke even with some of the stronger abilities. Which, if you replace "Arenas" with "Battle Frontier," is pretty much my position on pokemon as well.

Though I think we disagree on how much nightmare fuel pokemon should have. Eldritch creatures are a lot more interesting than yet another rodent.

On the nightmare fuel aspect that was mostly a joke at how frequently Kirby does it. Pokémon can be creepy if it wants to be, but I don’t think they should make the themes much deeper than Sun and Moon while still actively targeting kids as their current audience (yes I know they target all ages, but still). Alola got away with some pretty unnerving stuff in my opinion (not saying it’s bad, I like the games a lot, just that it noticeably pushed the envelope).

Fan games that aren’t just the same game with changes to movepools / stats (read: the ones with original stories) often go way out of their way to make things edgy for the sake of it which is one reason I don’t tend to play them.

 

[MrHands]

I just want one game in this franchise that I don't have to mod extensively or straight up cheat in because of horrendously STUPID design decisions.

Platinum does come THIS close to be just... good.

But then I remember that I will always have to bust out PKHex because that idiotic IV system still plagues that game, I remember that I will never be able to roll with 6 mons unless I use a walk through walls cheat because of the sheer number of trash HMs and because of this, Bibarel will always be a lock on all Plat teams, I remember Natures I don't have mints for, I remember single-use TMs that I can never buy once I use them, I remember Cynthia's Garchomp not holding a Yache Berry, I remember hours of that fucking digging mini-game for shards, I remember looking at my Luxray running Thunder Fang because at least it wasn't as stale as Spark, which was the actual best physical STAB option it had, I remember Cyrus making no goddamn sense as an antagonist outside of having a cool theme, I remember the dex NEEDING to be expanded because the new cross-gen evos were not available in-game and Flint still had a thoroughly mediocre roster with the likes of Flareon and Rapidash because there were still not enough good Fire-types in that game, I remember the brilliant idea of yet another Ice Leader on the 7th Gym, I remember Volkner being an absolute chump and the difficulty in general plummeting past Wake tbh, I remember having to grind Chimchar on Lv. 6 mons until Level 14 because it wouldn't ever beat Roark otherwise because they had picked Rock as the first Gym again, and mind you this is the exact same thing they did in Hoenn.

And mind you, in my book, this is the best game in the main series.

So many of these are just products of their time, so many of these would be obviously fixed by a remake. OBVIOUSLY!!!

So HOW? How did that happen?

Why are the goddamn maps based on DP? Masuda and Game Freak spent time and money refining that game when they were making Platinum! ALL OF IT!!! What the hell happened? How did these people reach the conclusion that all the improvements they had made on that game were horrendous mistakes that should never see the light again?

And now, I have to wake up and read an extremely cursed, and I don't mean that because of the stream of expletives I I said when I saw that you had to pony up 500 PokeDollars to get in a safari zone which is arguably the worst in the franchise, where over half of it is a mire of mud tiles that get you stuck in place, making the most basic mobility a struggle, and what do I see in that hellhole?

A Bidoof.

A Bidoof that I can't even battle normally, I gotta use these repulsive safari mechanics, despite the fact that I could catch one in the very first route of the game.

And then I realized that people had already done the math and that meant that was the archaic DP encounter table.

And then I realized that I wouldn't be able to just make everything Med. Slow Exp. Group, maybe spice up the leaders, no...

That meant that they screwed up the level curve between Veilstone, Pastoria, and Hearthome, so the game would also have the horrendous level issues that DP had.

That meant that I'd have to update every single route to Platinum's encounters.

That meant that I couldn't trust them to not inevitably screw up the post-game, so I'm not even sure if you can rematch the leaders. And of course, the Frontier isn't available, nor it will ever be available, regardless of how wack Gen 4's Frontier was.

And naturally, if I got a Luxray, I'd have to enjoy the beauty of having what boils down to an accurate Electric Take Down as STAB. Because the concept of "having a reliable move that doesn't suck is very important to a type in general" still eludes these fools.

I'm sick of it all. Honestly. When you play other games and see devs trying out new things, devs trying to optimize good things, devs that actively work for a better experience, you look back at this franchise and see just how completely fucked it is.

Compare Samus Returns to Metroid Dread and remember these are the same damn devs and look at just how much they improved, how many issues that SR had got eradicated in Dread and then come back to this thread and read that people are unironically concerned that Flint will have 2 Fire mons out of 5 again.


Make it make sense. Tell me. Explain it to me how one would to a child. How can I ever look forward to a game on this franchise? It's an endless tango of mediocrity. One step forward, one step back. All. The. Damn. Time.

Tldr we grew up, the franchise hasn't.

For us at Smogon who understand EVs, IVs, base stats etc it's unrealistic to ever expect a Pokémon game to be even vaguely challenging. Even Nuzlocke rules are easy in most games without restricting yourself further. But Rom hacks do exist and are quite good. Renegade Platinum is fantastic. Crystal Clear pushes the gen 2 engine into the stratosphere. Randomizers make games we played 50 times before feel fresh and wild. Also there's Pokemon Showdown, a game quite literally made for and by players like us.

Gamefreak is making games for children, bloating them full of gen 1 nostalgia to keep as many old players hooked as they can. But the games aren't made for us any more.

 

[Chadlad50]

My guess for Flint is he'll at the very least have Magmortar and Rotom-Heat on his team

Personally I'm fine with either outcome. If his team makes sense then it makes sense, and if it's his original DP team atleast we have something to meme about for another 10 years

 

[AquaticPanic]

Also, something important to note regarding these early plays of the game - The game has outright been confirmed to get a post-release patch in the official site.

I have absolutely no idea why they would advertise an unfinished version as their distribution for early access but this does confirm there are things yet to be changed on the game that the current version lacks.

 

[Zowayix]

Also, something important to note regarding these early plays of the game - The game has outright been confirmed to get a post-release patch in the official site.

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I have absolutely no idea why they would advertise an unfinished version as their distribution for early access but this does confirm there are things yet to be changed on the game that the current version lacks.

If you look in one of the earlier Presents, this is confirmed to be just online functionality. The disclaimer pops up specifically when the Union Room is being introduced and nowhere else.

 

[Wishy]

The new underground is silly to me. Just add more Pokemon to the regular routes and Marsh? The DP dex needs the boost. At least they're there but like, in a big ugly unimmersive side game.

What they don't get is people want a better version of DPP. I can go back and play DP on my DSi if I want am authentic experience.

Making Elite 4 members from types the regional dex cannot sufficiently support was a running theme across all four of the first generations, which is either solved by doubling up on family members or taking in Pokemon from different types. Agatha, Pheobe, Glacia, Drake kind of. The only reason Flint stands out as particularly egregious is because none of his non-Fire Pokemon (besides maybe Drifblim) share any type or thematic overlap. They're seemingly picked at random.

I always assumed Lopunny on a Fire specialist team was a joke because it's...."hot! Lol" or something weird like that.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I haven't been keeping up, but any ideas/theories on how regional variations might work?

It has to be a given that G-rapidash, A-ninetales, etc are in this, even corsula is part of the swarm mechanics... but then back to corsula who has a regional evolution after its galarion form (cursola).

Makes me wonder if the dex will be expanded slightly (i ain't bothering hoping for national.. but an expansion from the original 493?) cause cursola being #864 means there's no room unless its just randomly plugged in. Same for obstagoon actually. Or are we let's go where we pretend the evolution never existed?

Just a thought I had because I was gunna shiny hunt some regionals, been trying for awhile with corsola and had that suddenly revelation it isn't even part of the original cast.

 

[AquaticPanic]

I haven't been keeping up, but any ideas/theories on how regional variations might work?

It has to be a given that G-rapidash, A-ninetales, etc are in this, even corsula is part of the swarm mechanics... but then back to corsula who has a regional evolution after its galarion form (cursola).

Makes me wonder if the dex will be expanded slightly (i ain't bothering hoping for national.. but an expansion from the original 493?) cause cursola being #864 means there's no room unless its just randomly plugged in. Same for obstagoon actually. Or are we let's go where we pretend the evolution never existed?

Just a thought I had because I was gunna shiny hunt some regionals, been trying for awhile with corsola and had that suddenly revelation it isn't even part of the original cast.

The closest thing we have to compare this to is Let's Go, and that just excluded crossgen evos altogether. I'd love it if they were kept, but I'm not counting on it.

 

[Pikachu315111]

I haven't been keeping up, but any ideas/theories on how regional variations might work?

It has to be a given that G-rapidash, A-ninetales, etc are in this, even corsula is part of the swarm mechanics... but then back to corsula who has a regional evolution after its galarion form (cursola).

Makes me wonder if the dex will be expanded slightly (i ain't bothering hoping for national.. but an expansion from the original 493?) cause cursola being #864 means there's no room unless its just randomly plugged in. Same for obstagoon actually. Or are we let's go where we pretend the evolution never existed?

Just a thought I had because I was gunna shiny hunt some regionals, been trying for awhile with corsola and had that suddenly revelation it isn't even part of the original cast.

If they're in, probably a NPC that'll trade you them for the normal variant like they did in Let's Go and Isle of Armor.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

The closest thing we have to compare this to is Let's Go, and that just excluded crossgen evos altogether. I'd love it if they were kept, but I'm not counting on it.

This is what i'm afraid of, if they're that anal about 1:1 with the originals that they even cut the regional form's evolutions while the regionals are there there, like magezone, porgyon2, etc for LGPE

If they're in, probably a NPC that'll trade you them for the normal variant like they did in Let's Go and Isle of Armor.

That or home as well, I'm confident they'll be in, but the evolutions are what I'm concerned for because its not like you can just squeeze them inbetween the dex or place them after arceus, they'd either go in without dex entries like the alola starters in swsh or not exist.. or dex expansion which would be unexpected.

 

[Wukong]

The new underground is silly to me. Just add more Pokemon to the regular routes and Marsh? The DP dex needs the boost. At least they're there but like, in a big ugly unimmersive side game.

I'm on the fence about the Grand Underground as well. I guess all Gens 1 - 4 Pokémon will be available through it, but I still don't understand WHEN or HOW they will be available. I doubt you'll just have access to all 493 Pokémon right from the point you receive the Explorer Kit; there has to be some level of scaling.

And even then, what is the method to gain access to these Pokémon? Is it as arduous as Spiritomb's was? Easier? Harder?

There are too many unanswered questions about the Grand Underground. If it's properly implemented, it might make up for the use of the DP dex instead of Platinum's. But if not, it's yet another point in Platinum's favor over BDSP.

Previously I was rooting for BDSP. But I'll be honest, at this point I'm just interested in seeing how far it falls short of Platinum. So far the Battle Frontier, level curve, map and chibi art (I thought this was a cheap shot but quite frankly fuck this game) are all in Platinum's favor. If BDSP loses the dex battle as well, this could be a complete wipeout.

 

[R_N]

I'm on the fence about the Grand Underground as well. I guess all Gens 1 - 4 Pokémon will be available through it, but I still don't understand WHEN or HOW they will be available. I doubt you'll just have access to all 493 Pokémon right from the point you receive the Explorer Kit; there has to be some level of scaling.

And even then, what is the method to gain access to these Pokémon? Is it as arduous as Spiritomb's was? Easier? Harder?

There are too many unanswered questions about the Grand Underground. If it's properly implemented, it might make up for the use of the DP dex instead of Platinum's. But if not, it's yet another point in Platinum's favor over BDSP.

Previously I was rooting for BDSP. But I'll be honest, at this point I'm just interested in seeing how far it falls short of Platinum. So far the Battle Frontier, level curve, map and chibi art (I thought this was a cheap shot but quite frankly fuck this game) are all in Platinum's favor. If BDSP loses the dex battle as well, this could be a complete wipeout.

WE have footage of stuff like Onix & Scyther roaming around the what seems to be early/mid game period so I think it will be similar to the Safari Zone in HGSS (just available earlier): You will have near immediate access to a large swath of Pokemon, but you'll need to put more time (mining or time into the game or whatever, in this case, rather than Literal Time for the Safari Zone) to get "better" statues that then spawn in even more pokemon (or rarer).

We've also known how to get them. They show up in the dens that little the underground, which are fully visible on the map, and you can place statues to help determine what'll spawn.

This likely won't be arduous for most Pokemon and certainly not on the level of Spiritomb.



Honestly I get the vibe of this being a soft wild area: yo uget access to it several hours into the game and suddenly your options expand to a large degree.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I'm on the fence about the Grand Underground as well. I guess all Gens 1 - 4 Pokémon will be available through it, but I still don't understand WHEN or HOW they will be available. I doubt you'll just have access to all 493 Pokémon right from the point you receive the Explorer Kit; there has to be some level of scaling.

And even then, what is the method to gain access to these Pokémon? Is it as arduous as Spiritomb's was? Easier? Harder?

From everything we've seen it seems pretty straightforward; just walk around and find the Pokemon. Put the statues down, certain Pokemon types become more common.

R_N sniped me and explained this far more gracefully than I, so yeah just read their comment. Based on trailer footage and such it seems more or less implied that the entire Platinum dex will be available (even mons like Altaria and Scizor have been seen in Contests), and when you add up the non-dex Gen 1-4 mons the options expand far beyond what that game had to offer. If nothing else, that's a sizeable niche BDSP will have over it I feel.

So far the Battle Frontier, level curve, map and chibi art (I thought this was a cheap shot but quite frankly fuck this game) are all in Platinum's favor.

Imagine still thinking the Battle Frontier won't be included in some form

 

[pharaohcalvin]

I love how everyone is like these are all terrible choices! I am here like I like this. I like this a lot. I do think their is charm behind the og D/P encounter tables. It is a D/P remake not a PL one. The TMS returning to old form is amazing. Like, they hit the nail here. Reusable tms were a mistake. It meant powerful tm moves had to be post game or you can just blow through everything spamming it. One use prevents that, and if you can get more copies in the post game that solves the issues of them only being at one copy. Does it take more effect to take them, sure, but that is part of the game. I like putting effort into what I play. If I wanted gratification without any work I would go play some shitty shooter or MOBA.

Sure we may have the shitty no turn off exp all or the shitty pc anywhere making it easier, the latter at least being avoidable if you want the game harder. But we are getting shit like the Marsh back that I never thought I would. I just need to know that I can send in my mons from Home to BD/LP and this could easily be the best games yet. Loads better then shitty SW/SH and B/W.

 

[The Mind Electric]

I love how everyone is like these are all terrible choices! I am here like I like this. I like this a lot. I do think their is charm behind the og D/P encounter tables. It is a D/P remake not a PL one. The TMS returning to old form is amazing. Like, they hit the nail here. Reusable tms were a mistake. It meant powerful tm moves had to be post game or you can just blow through everything spamming it. One use prevents that, and if you can get more copies in the post game that solves the issues of them only being at one copy. Does it take more effect to take them, sure, but that is part of the game. I like putting effort into what I play. If I wanted gratification without any work I would go play some shitty shooter or MOBA.

Sure we may have the shitty no turn off exp all or the shitty pc anywhere making it easier, the latter at least being avoidable if you want the game harder. But we are getting shit like the Marsh back that I never thought I would. I just need to know that I can send in my mons from Home to BD/LP and this could easily be the best games yet. Loads better then shitty SW/SH and B/W.

I respect your opinion, but I also hate all of it.

 

[Wukong]

WE have footage of stuff like Onix & Scyther roaming around the what seems to be early/mid game period so I think it will be similar to the Safari Zone in HGSS (just available earlier): You will have near immediate access to a large swath of Pokemon, but you'll need to put more time (mining or time into the game or whatever, in this case, rather than Literal Time for the Safari Zone) to get "better" statues that then spawn in even more pokemon (or rarer).

We've also known how to get them. They show up in the dens that little the underground, which are fully visible on the map, and you can place statues to help determine what'll spawn.

This likely won't be arduous for most Pokemon and certainly not on the level of Spiritomb.



Honestly I get the vibe of this being a soft wild area: yo uget access to it several hours into the game and suddenly your options expand to a large degree.

That's fair. Objectively then, I have to give BDSP's dex the edge over Platinum's since it's basically Platinum's dex + others from Gens 1 - 3. However, distribution wise I still favor Platinum. I agree with Wishy that having all these Pokémon just stuffed into the Underground kind of ruins the immersion of the region by not having them embedded within the routes and caves. Also, part of having a good dex to me is seeing your opponents (particularly the bosses) use the same cool array of available Pokémon. That's still a big question mark lingering over BDSP.

Imagine still thinking the Battle Frontier won't be included in some form

Yeah, no.

Loads better then shitty SW/SH and B/W.

I'll give you SwSh, but this game doesn't come anywhere close to BW (a top 5 game) from what I've seen so far.