Resource SS NU Viability Ranking Thread

[Finchinator]

What do people feel about Doublade? Now seems like a good time to start discussing it since we have had a couple of weeks.

Personally I think B+ makes the most sense. It has a unique presence as a win-condition that challenges offenses, especially if they lack Mudsdale, while maintaining an elite defensive presence against physical attackers. It can virtually shut down Ninjask, Braviary, Diancie, and Bronzong while checking Tyrantrum, Aerodactyl, Passimian, and a few others. Of course, a lot of special attackers and Dark types naturally match-up well with it, which makes it much less consistent than it otherwise would be.

I think Doublade is not the most splashable Pokemon do to its many vulnerabilities, but on the right teams it can be an ideal fit and it could approach staple status on offenses that require it as a physical stop if they forgo Mudsdale. Ultimately, B+ or A- seems most fitting to me for now, but I think we should have more discussion, which we begun in the NU discord tonight.

 

[Pokeslice]

What do people feel about Doublade? Now seems like a good time to start discussing it since we have had a couple of weeks.

Personally I think B+ makes the most sense. It has a unique presence as a win-condition that challenges offenses, especially if they lack Mudsdale, while maintaining an elite defensive presence against physical attackers. It can virtually shut down Ninjask, Braviary, Diancie, and Bronzong while checking Tyrantrum, Aerodactyl, Passimian, and a few others. Of course, a lot of special attackers and Dark types naturally match-up well with it, which makes it much less consistent than it otherwise would be.

I think Doublade is not the most splashable Pokemon do to its many vulnerabilities, but on the right teams it can be an ideal fit and it could approach staple status on offenses that require it as a physical stop if they forgo Mudsdale. Ultimately, B+ or A- seems most fitting to me for now, but I think we should have more discussion, which we begun in the NU discord tonight.

--> B+
Doublade is a weird Pokemon. It has a great typing and movepool that, combined with its fantastic physical bulk, lets it check almost every physical attacker in the tier and a good portion of other Pokemon, too. What's sad about Doublade though is that with its reliance on Eviolite and poor special bulk, you can't fit it on a team as a traditional Steel, having to make up for its weaknesses with another special sponge and, usually, a Wish passer. Doublade + Diancie + Vaporeon is a balance core I keep coming back to. I do think that if you build around it, it's a really solid metagame presence and probably deserves more exploration, but as of right now it should slot into B+.

 

[etern]

--> A-

I rate blade pretty highly compared to most people probably, but I think he's in a really strong place in the metagame right now. The main criticisms seem to be he doesn't provide the qualities you'd expect of a traditional Steel-type, ala Bronzong / Copper / Vally-Steel, but I think that actually works in its favor. Sometimes (in my recent experience) it can be pretty tricky to fit a Steel-type onto more fast paced / aggressive offense teams, particularly when you're not using zong as a rocker (which is often the case, given it's a bit too passive and momentum sucking on those variants of offense), whereas Doublade has fantastic synergy with stuff like Mudsdale and Diancie and can form a really durable defensive backbone without giving free turns to stuff. A good comparison to make would probably be Piloswine from older gens of NU, it was often seen on offensive teams as a generically bulky mon that can take hits while still being a threat thanks to it's power / priority. While you probably aren't gonna be hardwalling anything with a Doublade, especially on wishless teams, you have the natural bulk to check tons of stuff in a pinch and the utility of sweeping with SD lategame or cleaning up with Shadow Sneak (and priority is so insanely valuable this gen that it shouldn't be understated). Alternatively, you can go the classic route with balance and partner him with Vaporeon / Sylveon and a Mudsdale / Diancie, and have a really strong defensive core that takes some pressure off blade (especially the max SpD eeveelutions that can double up as checks to some of the fairies and weaker dragons) and get value that way. One last thing is that Blade threatens a good chunk of our (admittedly limited) ghost resists with it's standard movepool, which can force your opp to play a passive and reactionary game in order to avoid a lategame sweep, which plays more into the momentum that blade can bring. I went on for much longer than I wanted to but yeah, all in all blade is a really good addition to the tier and def expect to see him rise in popularity as people explore it more and move away from the slow balances that feel very outdated in 2021.

--> B- / C+

I've been laddering with Omastar a lot this past week and I'm really surprised to see that he isn't used more. He's far stronger than Blastoise and doesn't require nearly as much support to break through teams once it gets an opportunity to setup. His physical bulk and typing makes it easy to setup on a bunch of things, namely Talonflame, choice locked Passimian, and Salazzle, and once you nuke something with Meteor Beam it's very hard to stop it. Another plus is that meteor beam is so obscenely strong, you can use it to holepunch a switch-in like Vileplume when sweeping isn't looking realistic or you cant get the opportunity to setup, and weak armor also lets you pull off some fun plays that capitalize off a smart double. Obviously he has a few weaknesses, like being outspeed by some prominent scarfers like Heliolisk (though you do outpace rotom-c and passimian which is really all you need to be viable as a smasher imo), and he relies on a well-timed meteor beam to break past vaporeon, which is why I wouldn't rank him higher than B-, but it's definitely a viable threat that puts immense pressure on opponents and turns a lot of starmie / mantine teams into mincemeat. Also it can setup on an exploud boomburst unlike Blastoise which is really cool.

Replays + Omastar Set

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1438770781
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1438203366
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1439474970

Omastar @ Power Herb
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Surf
- Meteor Beam
- Ice Beam

 

[poh]

I was thinking to place Doublade at B+/A-, but leaning towards B+.

Doublade is a rly cool wincon cause it offers you offensive and defensive value, kinda like snorlax. It has enough bulk to setup a swords dance and if the opposing team is weakened enough it usually just cleans. Strong priority is also super useful in a quite offensive meta. Having a solid answer to idbp zong is also greatly appreciated (although some are starting to run shadow ball on zong ;-;).

Not fulfilling the bulky steel type role as much as bronzong and copperajah, not being as splashable as the other steel types and sometimes struggling to actually sweep teams lead me to think it can start at B+. I do think it has some potential to rise depending on people starting to run more techs like rock slide or toxic.

 

[TheKingKarp]

Haven’t played a ton of the tier recently bc of irl stuff and just feeling bored but I have played around enough w doublade to give some of my thoughts!



I maybe be undervaluing it but I’m feeling B/B+ probably B+ but on the lower end.

Not to reiterate too much from above, but while it has great utility in both offense and defense it’s neither exceptional on both ends. Defensively it’s physical bulk is fantastic but having a steel that gets shredded by exploud, goodra, and dragalge isn’t ideal. Even stray volt switches chunk it for so much. The lack of passive recovery from leftovers also holds it back and the almost necessity of a wish passer makes it harder to build with defensively, although wish passers are quite common/viable in the tier so that attribute doesn’t really hold it back.

offensively it’s definitely very strong and it’s bulk allows it to set up SD relatively easily but again the lack of an power boost from an item like LO makes it feel so much weaker compared to the other set up sweepers in the tier, priority is really great absolutely and options like toxic, rockslide and magnet rise have a lot of potential. definitely less negatives on the offensive side though, it’s quite good.

I just don’t see doublade being as good as tauros and escav and maybe even decidueye
although if someone has a really cool doublade team and wants to pass it over, thatd be great :)

 

[roxie]

UR -> C
People have started using Galarian Stunfisk in SCL and having a Ground-type that doesn't autolose to Rotom-C is decent. Thunder Wave and Sludge Bomb are cool ways to spread status but our tier is filled with Heal Bell and Xatu is pretty common on most NU teams. It does have good special bulk to help with Dragalge, Goodra, and Heliolisk and I think Ground / Steel is just a nice defensive typing. It's kinda like a knockoff Excadrill but if it had the actual moves like Toxic or even Mold Breaker to threaten Xatu it'd be so much better in the tier. SCL usage vouches for its niche but it still falls short to a lot of stuff in the tier.

UR -> B / B+
Toxic Doublade is pretty amazing IMO, I personally use Toxic / Scared / Claw / Sneak but it can fall short on its special bulk. Pairing this with Wish-user: Vaporeon / Sylveon / Xatu helps a bit. I get weird vibes when using Bronzong now because Doublade is in the tier LOL but I've already started facing Shadow Ball Bronzongs (which was a thing slightly for Xatu) but it's like 5% more common with the Sword here now. As mentioned it can also be a cool late game sweeper assuming you've gotten like Mudsdale and other defensive Pokemon chipped enough.

UR -> B+
Snorlax is pretty neat but there is a lot of offensive pressure in the metagame rn but its wide coverage is something you have to be mindful of when facing it. Chipping this and/or dealing with this before it sets up is pretty important and the tier is capable of handling it offensively and defensively but its general bulk + Curse is something to look out for.

 

[Rabia]

-> B/B-
Tsareena is a very legitimate pick right now, hence me nominating it to get ranked somewhat high to start out. The main reason I value it pretty highly is NU's hazard control being not the best; yeah, we have a lot of Pokemon that can run or do run Defog or Rapid Spin---Talonflame, Rotom-C, Xatu, Starmie, Mantine, Decidueye, and Dhelmise are all examples---but most of them would, well, really rather not have to slot a removal move onto their moveset. Tsareena doesn't have this issue and provides a lot of positives to a team in the form of Knock Off + pivot support, a pretty decent Ground-resistant Pokemon, and a Rotom-C check.

set

Tsareena (F) @ Protective Pads
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power Whip
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off

This is the set I've used the most. While it's not particularly hard to fit a cleric alongside, Protective Pads has been quite nice in trivializing Talonflame and letting you safely spin and pivot on it, and it's cool for avoiding Rocky Helmet chip from foes like... Garbodor and Weezing lol. There are some other options you can do---Heavy-Duty Boots, boosting items, Choice Scarf, and itemless all work---but I've appreciated the self sufficiency that Protective Pads gives.

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1439092497 - turns Rotom-C into a dead teamslot (stop running itemless it sucks), bonks the fuck out of Sylveon, and was pretty annoying for Bronzong
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-585492 - opened up the game huge for Charmflash, pressuring Sylveon really hard early and outright removing it and Goodra not too long after

The downsides to Tsareena are mostly found in its desire to run a lot of moves; I've always found myself wishing I had Synthesis, but it's hard to drop your other moves unless you have another form of removal elsewhere. It's also a really shitty check to Water-types, but those are somewhat rare at the moment? I haven't really viewed them as overly problematic for Tsareena structures anyway so.

comments on other noms:
very overrated by anyone that thinks it defines the meta in a meaningful way, wouldn't rank it above A- at the absolute highest atm
it's probably also around B+/A-; agree with eternally that it offers a lot on offense builds that Piloswine has in previous generations, which makes the whole "not being a traditionally Steel-type" issue less problematic. It helps that Sylveon and Vaporeon partner well with it and can somewhat compensate for its defensive shortcomings.
Steel / Ground typing is broken, C rank is probably fine
good Pokemon, benefits from Vaporeon being much less common now. have mostly seen it used on balance builds, which definitely goes against my previous thoughts of it being limited to offense and helps justify it as more than just a niche pick on matchup fish teams

 

[Fusion Flare]

hey just double checking are we like gonna put zoroark in D rank? im pretty sure that its still tiered in NU and as such can’t be UR because of that reason. just blacklist it IG

 

[Rabia]

hey just double checking are we like gonna put zoroark in D rank? im pretty sure that its still tiered in NU and as such can’t be UR because of that reason. just blacklist it IG

we can do our vr however we want

 

[Fusion Flare]

we can do our vr however we want

fair

 

[Segetarius]

Here's some (possibly premature) general noms for the meta:

C -> C+
Togedemaru has proven itself to possess a decent niche within the tier, being the only steel with access to recovery besides leftovers. Obviously the tradeoff you make is in Togedemaru's comparatively awful bulk, but this is made up in part by its pivoting ability with U-Turn and its good speed tier of 96. While matchup dependent, Togedemaru can provide excellent utility to its team, providing Wish support as well as chip in the from of Spikey Shield and U-Turn with the excellent benefit of being arguable the hardest counter available to Scarf Mowtom. If nothing else, its SCL usage warrants just a teeny tiny rise.

C+ -> B-
Honestly, Weexing is a legit pick rn. So what separates this mon from Garboder? I'd argue the biggest benefit of Weezing is its access to Levitate, which isn't to say that Neutralizing Gas is bad, just comparatively niche. Having that Ground immunity as well as Will-o-Wisp to punish switches to mons not named Salazzle is a nice perk (the Spikes immunity is nice to). Rocky Helmet gives you an excellent buffer against many physical attackers (although itemless is an option if you really hate Golurk), with Pain Split to punish bulkier switches hoping to abuse Weezing's somewhat passive nature. Additional options like Corrosive Gas, Toxic Spikes (as non of the Poison's really want to get burned), Flamethrower, Haze, Rest if you're evil, Taunt, even Toxic, gives Weezing just enough versatility to tailor it to what your team needs. Try it out, you might just like what it brings to your team.

A- -> A
Look, we can all acknowledge that Vaporeon is nowhere near as good as it used to be. However, it turns out when we start using Vaporeon as if it exists within a BO meta, it becomes a lot better. The days of running Heal Bell (or Flip Turn with Boots if you were a madman) in the last slot are over. It turns out that if you slap Toxic in the last slot, the truly safe switches to Vaporeon become limited to Toxicroak (who's already the hardest Vap counter imaginable), Vileplume, and Dragalge (who you can sit on anyways with a Wish and a Poison to absorb the TSpikes). As for the issue of Vaporeon being poisoned, it's not like it's difficult to fot an alternative cleric with options like Sylveon, Diancie, Comfey, etc. Not really a huge leap to me to nom it for a single subcategory rise.

B+ -> A-
Fun fact, if you run a team legal in NU, there is a 100% chance that it's weak to Tauros. What separates Tauros from the other potentially nuclear breakers in the tier is a) its speed tier and b) the fact that it can actually switch moves. Once this mon gets in, it's really only a matter of time before it claims something unless you make multiple superb reads. Then you bring in your revenge killer ofc, but that really only forces it out, waiting for another opportunity to come in. Furthermore, a lot of the faster options that can revenge kill it don't actually KO it. Scarf Heliolisk tops out at 71%, Tauros is guaranteed to live a Mowtom Leaf Storm from full, Talonflame is strictly trying to burn, as the standard utility set doesn't even 2HKO it, etc. Obviously, this is assuming that Tauros is taking little or no chip, but the need to remove Tauros can just be used to make easy reads. Definitely a mon worth ranking just a little higher.

B -> C+
I'm sorry Pokemon fans, but this iconic fan favorite is simply not good. That doesn't stop low ladder from spamming it ofc, and I hate how whenever I create an alt to test something, I have to assume Arcanine has Wild Charge when I see it in team preview. This mon falls under the same category of Charizard to me, i.e worse than Talonflame 99.99/100 times. It does have the redeeming qualities of Intimidate and Teleport, but it simply isn't worth it over Talonflame.

B -> C+
Okay, its time for this mon to die. The only thing keeping it in the B ranks was its ability to take over games against opposing offense, which is technically still a thing it can do. However, Ninjask exists in a tier of Diancie and Talonflame and Mudsdale oh my! Can these obstacles be overcome with enough time? Sure. Can you consistently count on them being removed? Not really, and as long as they exist, ain't no Ninjask sweeping is happening.

As for Doublade and Snorlax, there's nothing I could say that hasn't already been said except that I feel Snorlax may be worthy of being A- simply because its so unforgiving both in the builder and in play. Anyways, this list of noms ended up being longer than I thought so if you read all my ramblings, thanks for reading!

 

[Catalisador]

Hello, y'all. Roselia, Torracat and Swirlix enthusiast Catalisador here to drop my most recent opinions on the current SS NU metagame. Prepare for the heat!

S
​

Talonflame, currently, in my opinion, is, undeniably, the most splashable, versatile and consistent Pokemon in the SS NU metagame. Its uncanny Speed tier gives it the ability to act as a speed control option for teams. And, with options ranging from defensive sets, thanks to its impeccable defensive typing and access to utility options such as U-Turn, Taunt, Will-o-Wisp and Toxic, to more offensively-oriented variants such as Swords Dance or even Bulk Up, the smogonbird has quickly risen to the top as a gigantic menance.

B+ -> A-​

From my experience spamming Tauros for the Snorlax suspect test, I've just got, really, what was expected of the bull: it is an absolutely overwhelming offensive presence! Its access to potent and wide coverage options allows it to hit the entirety of the NU tier for neutral or super-effective damage (a.k.a 2HKO a at minimum), while its Speed tier is nothing to be laughed at either!
Looking at the remainder of the B+ tier Pokémon, I simply belive that Tauros stands out as an extremely potent threat and, as such, should see a small rise on the VR.

NEW -> B+
​

Doublade has shaken up the metagame on its own, steely way. It is a very reliable check to the (previously) immensely fearsome DefensePressers, Bronzong and Diancie, as well as offensive threats such as Ninjask, Toxicroak, Tyrantrum and Passimian, all of which have seen a small decline in usage thanks to the blades's addition to the tier. Offensively, it possesses strong Ghost and Fighting coverage and access to STAB priority coupled with Swords Dance, making it a very reliable offensive option as well.
I do not think it is anything out of the ordinary, though. Being a so-called "fake Steel-type" thanks to its special frailty makes it so that teams have to run a secondary, specially defensive Steel-type or a Pokémon that can cover such defensive weaknesses (such as SpDef Diancie). Moreover, having a bad matchup against prominent threats in the current metagame such as Talonflame, Sirfetch'd and fast Normal-types in general (which can block its priority STAB and revenge kill it with potent, SE coverage moves) leaves it in a less than optimal spot. Still a very solid pick, tho, and deserving of a ranking around the B+ spot, in my opinion.

NEW -> B/B-
​

My first thoughts on Snorlax are that it is actually... extremely subpar?
I don't think Curse sets are too much of a problem to deal with given the dominance of Pokémon such as DefensePress Bronzong and Diancie, Growth Vileplume, Dragon Tail Guzzlord, SD; Bulk Up and Taunt versions of Talonflame, Sirfetch'd and our new NU comrade, SD Doublade. Choice Band sets aren't the most dominant either, nor are they the most effective - they're basically a cheap, slow version of Tauros which locks itself into a move for the chance of luring certain checks to the Curse variant, most of the time. Defensive versions with utility moves such as Whirlwind and Yawn seem pretty fun, but I've yet to give them a try. Overall I just think Snorlax is kinda... meh?

C+ -> B-​

Duraludon has become an very popular offensive pick in the current SS NU metagame. The main variants seen are the Eject Pack lead, which provides Stealth Rock support for more offensively-inclined teams as well as a pivotting opportunity with Draco Meteor + Eject Pack, and the Choice Specs set, which hits extremely hard with its potent dual STAB and access to coverage Dark Pulse to hit the likes of Bronzong or Thunderbolt to secure the 2HKO/OHKO on Vaporeon and Mantine, respectively. I think it definitely stands out as a potent pick amongst the other options on C+ and should see a small rise on the VR.

UR -> C
​

I've been preaching about Uxie for a whileee and now I wanted to make another nomination. This time really just emphasizing Uxie's defensive value. Thanks to its great bulk, it is able to check the likes of Sirfetch'd and Passimian (with a Colbur Berry) or Golurk and Dhelmise (itemless). Its access to utility moves in Stealth Rock, U-Turn, Future Sight, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, Yawn, Trick Room and even Memento makes it a versatile Pokemon that can handpick its moveset to better fit a team's needs.
Lastly, I wanna give a shoutout to Thunder Uxie, which reliably sets up Stealth Rock on Xatu with no need for any Special Attack investment (clean 2HKO!). Definitely give this little one a try sometime!

UR -> C​

Musharna has caught my eye recently as a replacement for CM + Rest Uxie on terrain teams. Its superior bulk just allows it to do the setupper job much more easily while mantaining basically the same qualities Uxie possesses - even with access to Moonblast for a stronger Fairy-type attack to threaten the likes of Guzzlord (which does 20 to +1 itemless Musharna, by the way).
It has also seen some little usage in SCL and I've personally brought it to PTPL and used it quite a lot overall and it is definitely a solid pick, currently!

UR -> C
​

Another little niche pick I've been experimenting with. Its unique typing gives it access to a great amount of resistances which are greatily appreciated in the current SS NU metagame, specially for hyper-offensive teams, surprisingly, being able to check huge threats such as SS Blastoise, Heliolisk and Rotom-Mow, while providing the ever-so-valuable Spikes. It is, also, not an entirely passive Pokemon thanks to its access to Leech Seed and Knock Off, which can punish common switch-ins. (P.S.: SpDef Bullet Seed checks SS Blastoise, y'all).

Little recent replay of some neat Ferroseed action since Phantomistix and I just battled, I guess (lol): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1443019149

Edit: oh yeah and PLEASE just unrank Arcanine, that mon is awful.

 

[Aawin]

couple noms since I've been looking at it a bit more and feel compelled to post

Rises

B- to B/B+

I'm a fan of Rhydon at the moment as a Stealth Rocker in the tier, especially with Xatu and Talonflame being as popular and common as they are currently in the meta. In comparison to other Ground rockers (namely Mudsdale and the rare Stunfisk-G), Rhydon cleanly picks off Xatu, whereas these other grounds struggle. Mudsdale has Smack Down which bounces off and proceeds to get PP stalled out of Earthquakes. It can run Payback with the 76+ atk spread pretty easily. Stunfisk's Stone Edge is non-STAB coming off of a miserable attack stat which also leads to being stalled. Rhydon's EdgeQuake STAB is incredible off of 130 base attack, and Eviolite allows it to stomach most hits on the physical side and give it serviceable bulk on the special side. Rhydon also has the flexibility to run many different moves in its 4th slot (assuming you're SR/Dual STAB). Heat Crash allows it to chunk Vileplume and OHKO Mowtom, and SD allows you to break past defensive answers with relative ease. On the topic of SD, max base 45 is actually pretty okay for the mon, as it allows it to outpace pokemon like NASCAR Diancie, Guzzlord, Vaporeon, Sylveon, and a couple others I'm forgetting, allowing Rhydon to pave the way for partners like Talonflame and Salazzle to be able to have more cushion. Small rise, but I think Rhydon distinguishes its presence more in the meta than Kingdra (talk abt this mon later)

B- to B
Similarly to Rhydon, I'm a fan of Dhelmise as one of the most competent hazard removers in the tier. On most mons that get Defog, the move is inferior and only used if you fucked up in team building (see Defog Mantine and Defog Talon, notably). Dhelmise, while providing utility as a spinner also packs a huge punch with STAB Poltergeist and Power Whip, which threatens common Stealth Rock setters such as Diancie and Mudsdale, as well as prove issues for pokemon like Vaporeon and Rotom-Mow (does have to look out for Toxic / Burns admittedly). I've messed around with Anchor Shot as a tertiary STAB to deal decent damage (131 base attack by the way) to itemless mons such as Vileplume and Xatu, the latter of which has seen more usage recently in the past couple weeks of SCL, as well as not allowing a free Drapion or Guzzlord switch-in. Togkey has created a spread for Dhelmise that, when healthy, allows you to blanket Blastoise (which is still a pain in the ass don't @ me) and prevent a loss after a Shell Smash. No item Dhelmise is also not a terrible option, as now you're walling Golurk's STABS, but makes you incredibly hazard weak. Dhelmise has proven to be both threatening as an offensive presence in tours and on ladder, and allow great defensive utility for teams as well. Criminally low, and a rise to B should represent how potent and valuable the mon is at the current stage in the metagame. It theoretically could rise to B+, but it does have some issues of not being a solid Fighting-type answer as a Ghost-type.

New to B+ / A- (ceiling)
I've already covered this pokemon once it dropped at the beginning of the month. Like Finchinator said, there's not a ton of room with creativity for this mon imo. SD/Toxic/Sneak/CC seems to be an alright set, and something like Magnet Rise could catch a Mudsdale by surprise. Not a ton of thoughts here on it since most has already been said about the Pokemon.

New to B/B+
I've started to come around on Snorlax. As most of you probably know, I was pro-ban for a hot minute, and vehemently defended my position in a Rabia Youtube video. However, after playing with the pokemon a bit, I find it odd to fit onto teams? There are solid answers to it on most teams, and while Heavy Slam + Darkest Lariat on Curse does catch Diancie, it leaves you shafted by Guzzlord and Vileplume. I've started using more Taunt + BU Talonflame which can act as a pseudo-answer. While I'm not necessarily sold on it being entirely balanced (I still do find it slightly constricting in the builder), I feel that we're able to adapt to the pokemon and have it be an eventual staple in the meta. The thoughts from roxiee and turtledoggo1 are very solid posts, and I suggest you read over those for more info on it. B seems like a fine ranking for Snorlax, and I think it's ceiling is around A-/A.

please rank this pokemon higher, like everyone else has said. Powerful, fast, and able to rip holes easier than other breakers due to not being choice locked.

other small noms I agree with that were made previously:

Drops

B- to C+ / C
When was the last time anybody used this pokemon? I rarely see it used in tournaments or ladder, and for good reason. I think crit sets are still the only thing this pokemon has going for it and still seem potent. It's an odd mon to rank at the moment because of how many turns it takes to set up (focus energy + substitute, sub + dd, focus energy + agility) but it still does something better than any mon can, albeit a bit niche. I don't have tons of usage with Kingdra and I'm open to hearing peoples opinions on this pokemon.

B to B-
The amount of pokemon working against this little critter are quite numerous and incredibly common. Diancie and Talonflame are still the best Pokemon in the tier, and limit the effectiveness of how much this mon can clean, by resisting both STABS comfortably and Flame Body, respectively. Similarly to Kingdra, it does something not many pokemon can do, and that's gain momentum on everything considering U-Turn has no immunities, and can clean with chip on its answers. Rocky Helmet is also relatively common with mons like Xatu and Garbodor whittling at its health, which is crucial if it's not HDB Dual Wingbeat. A slight fall for the offense killer just because of how fat things are atm and able to ruin the chances for jask to sweep.

B to B-
A common trend with these drops is that most are considered relics of the past. Glastrier isn't avoiding trend. A threatening wallbreaker shafted by poor defensive typing (emphasis on this part) and the war on which item it should run (HDB or lefties). Way too fucking slow and bulk that has no valuable resists to take advantage of, and providing no real backbone for a team, making it more and more difficult to build a successful team around without having glaring holes. There's more value to add different slower breakers to a team than this mon. Janky mon that I'm not sold on being B tier. Feel free to disagree on this one because its one I feel I'm able to change an opinion on.

Respond to this with any thoughts you might have, and I'll be willing to discuss those :)

 

[Expulso]

Doublade: New -> B rank

I think Doublade is rather overrated right now due to a) the extent to which its checks impede it from making any progress while they are alive and b) the prominence of multiple really good Doublade checks on teams.

Swords Dance Doublade really just does nothing for much of the game; in my SCL game vs Ren-Chon, for instance, I needed both his Mudsdale and Talonflame to be greatly weakened for Doublade to ever conceivably be a threat. Toxic Doublade is able to make early progress versus those two 'mons, but it fails to slow down other switchins like Doublade and Vaporeon and is sort of just walled by mons with recovery due to the inability to setup (SD + Toxic sounds really bad). At that point, I'm also not sure why I wouldn't just use something like Knock Off Drapion or Toxicroak to offensively break down walls like Mudsdale and Talonflame and then eventually sweep.

Thus, the reason to use Doublade is for its defensive properties, which are admittedly impressive against the pre-Doublade meta. Standard Bronzong and Diancie become setup bait for it and Pokemon like Sucker Punch Toxicroak, Tauros, and Dragalge (with SpDef investment on Doub) are solidly checked by Doublade. However, Pokemon that were previously walled by it can adapt fairly easily; Bronzong can run Shadow Ball, which hits Doublade and Xatu, and SR Diancie can run Mystical Fire, which also helps it better weaken the super-common Zong. The Pokemon Doublade checks also make more progress against Doublade than Doublade makes against their teammates; a common scenario is for Doub to take ~35% from them and force them out but then not make any significant progress versus their team due to its inability to break past checks like Mudsdale and Talonflame -- not to mention strong special revenge killers like Helio, Exploud, DPulse Guzz et. al. Doublade eats a hit from some breakers well but doesn't make much progress after taking that chip because it just isn't very threatening, and lacking recovery doesn't help its case.

======

one more quick thought: A- is pretty crowded already, especially if Tauros moves up (which is probably warranted), but Escavalier and Passimian are as good as any of the mons currently in A- and I think they should move up as well.

ok a second thought about this: heliolisk and mantine are imo the 2 worst mons in a- so they could move down to b+ if u want to make a- less cluttered

 

[roxie]

​

S -> S- / A+
I've been wanting to talk about Talonflame's ranking for a bit and I don't really feel like it defines the metagame at the moment. The sets that come to mind are Defensive Defog, Offensive Swords Dance, and Bulk Up + Will-O-Wisp. As a defogger, I feel like it's pressured heavily by our Stealth Rockers whether it's Rock-types in Diancie and Rhydon, Rock-type coverage from Mudsdale and Copperajah, and various status moves in Toxic, Trick, and Glare from Mudsdale, Bronzong, and Druddigon, respectively. Because of this, players opt to use more offensive sets and move the hazard role upon another teammate whether that is Silvally-Steel, Xatu, Dhelmise, or Starmie. Swords Dance Talonflame sets have been getting excitement especially because of its Steel Wing lure, notably hitting Diancie. However, the Swords Dance turn has to be predicted correctly on the switch-in to potentially OHKO it assuming its at full HP: (+2 252 Atk Talonflame Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 52+ Def Diancie: 276-328 (90.7 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO). Dropping Flare Blitz or Brave Bird leaves you immensely walled by something and you already struggle to break Mudsdale, Heatproof Bronzong, and Vaporeon without any boosts. This is where Talonflames relies a bit on team support in Silvally-Ground, Doublade, and Toxicroak to help make progress and/or check the listed defensive Pokemon to help it in the late-game. Furthermore, not having Roost leaves it easily worn down by Brave Bird and Flare Blitz recoil damage.

Xatu is the first Pokemon that comes to mind when I need Defogger that can pivot and I personally love Teleport since it safely brings in the next Pokemon. Teambuilding-wise, this allows teammates to not use Heavy-Duty Boots such as Salazzle, Talonflame, Dragalge, Snorlax, and literally anything that doesn't wanna take unnecessary chip damage. Defog being compressed as an ability is amazing and if we look at many of our hazard control users in the tier: Mantine, Braviary, Comfey, and Rotom-C, they'd heavily appreciate using a different move. Talonflame's Dual weakness to Rock causes to fear switching into Knock Off users and lets use Sirfetch'd and Passimian in this sense since it hinders its ability to come back at full from Stealth Rocks.

SCL
Kushalos vs mncmt - Talonflame + Rapid Spin Tsareena
Ren-chon vs Expulso - Talonflame + Defog Mantine
TDK vs Sensei Axew - Talonflame + Defog Articuno
Kushalos vs Expulso - Talonflame + Xatu
Sensei Axew vs Ho3nConfirm3d - Talonflame + Defog Rotom-C

The replays above show examples of Talonflame builds using teammates to fulfill the Defog or Rapid Spin role. Using another Pokemon to perform this role reflects based on the usage statistics for 'Moves and Teammates' during SCL as Defog has a 3.23% usage, Swords Dance with 12.90%, and Bulk Up with 9.68%. I feel like this implies that non-Defog sets are more effective, especially in tournament play. The replays also showcase teammates like Banded Guzzlord & Silvally-Ground, Escavalier & Tauros, Machamp Sirfetch'd & Silvally-Ground, and Xatu to switch in and chip defensive Pokemon.

Mudsdale is a common pair with Talonflame and looking at how a less passive teammate normally uses the hazard role, how it relies on multiple teammates to break past walls, and the statistics and actual builds to back it up, I don't see it as metagame threatening as Rotom-C for example. Its role in the metagame in my eyes is a general fast pivot or late game sweeper and even though its fast, many can agree that running a Choice Scarf user is a natural thing with Talonflame.

A+ -> S-
i don't think it's on the same level as bronzong or rotom-c but i do think it's still better than most if not all of the other a+ ranks. it's so easy to just slot on a talonflame for speed control, or a fighting resist, or for whatever. pivot sets are still amazing at luring things for its teammates or just spreading status/picking things off. offensive variants have also been doing great lately with sd/ wisp bu which further adds to its diversity. i don't think it's as meta defining/threatening or particularly outstanding in any one role compared to the other s ranks, but i do think a rise is appropriate.

S- -> S / S-
Most of our Ground-types like Silvally-Ground, Rhydon, and Mudsdale don't appreciate switching into Rotom-C because of Leaf Storm. Playing offensively with Rotom-C like selecting Rotom-C against let's say Talonflame or Starmie you could face a 50/50 with Rotom-C simply clicking Volt Switch into their wallbreaker or Leaf Storm to predict an Electric attack, causing a very much needed defensive Ground-type to be dead. Even then, Rotom-C might not even be Choice Scarf and the playing offensively part could be a bluff to lure your Ground-type and yes you can double into your Dragon-type but they could simply use Volt Switch again considering your Ground-type isn't particularly KOing it. This is a visual if what I was saying was a bit confusing to actually imagine.

Galarian Stunfisk and Togedemaru are the first Pokemon that comes to mind in terms of "the metagame adjusting to Rotom-C". Having a dedicated Pokemon switch in and check Choice Scarf Rotom-C is something valid so you're making less complicated plays and you're not using niche Choice Scarfers like Zoroark and Inteleon solely to outspeed Rotom-C and this reflects in SCL: Kushalos vs mncmt, TDK vs sensei axew, and confide vs Xiri. This is what I theorize as metagame defining. The metagame adjusting to using defensive and Choice Scarf Togedemaru, Galarian Stunfisk, and faster but less viable Choice Scarf users to damage it or stop its momentum temporarily.

A+ -> S- / S

Sets

Xatu
Ability: Magic Bounce
IVs: 0 Atk
- Teleport
- Roost
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Night Shade / Wish / Shadow Ball / Thunder Wave / Future Sight / Heat Wave / Foul Play / Protect

Xatu @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Magic Bounce
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cosmic Power
- Roost
- Dazzling Gleam
- Stored Power

Xatu
Ability: Magic Bounce
Serious Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Teleport
- Thunder Wave

Its general bulk, ability in Magic Bounce, and access to broken Teleport is something amazing. Overall, Xatu is pretty glueable on various playstyles and teammates. If we backtrack, we can see that Teleport Xatu was extremely nice on hyper offensive playstyles during Hail and offensive screens with Blastoise and it fits pretty well in the current metagame with Sand being the go-to HO build nowadays. The supportive role it provides for many Pokemon like Copperajah, Glastrier, Salazzle, and Snorlax is great and having a Pokemon to slow pivot teammates in while also blocking off hazards means they aren't taking unnecessary chip damage and they're allowed to use other items than HDB to make better use of themselves. Its access to Cosmic Power has been explored in SCL accompanied with Stored Power and interesting coverage options like Dazzling Gleam and Heat Wave. Here is a replay from SCL with Confide and Sensei Axew which showcases a Cosmic Power Xatu putting in work against a Rotom-C + Exploud build.

Xatu is an item flexible Pokemon and as a Flying-type, I find it great since you're not forced to use HDB. This allows it to fulfill other roles like checking Poltergeist users by running Itemless, running Colbur Berry to take less Knock Off damage, and status Drapion with Thunder Wave, or simply Leftovers for longevity. When using Teleport, I find its 4th slot pretty flexible and I listed that in the Set importable with Night Shade / Wish / Shadow Ball / Thunder Wave / Future Sight / Heat Wave / Foul Play / Protect all being effective options. Wish is nice if you're using Diancie or no-Wish user to compress the supportive healing role from Sylveon/Vaporeon, Heat Wave hits Steel-types, especially Escavalier, and Shadow Ball cteams opposing Xatus while also hitting Bronzong and Ghost-types supereffectively.

Open to other opinions, this took me a bit to write it so it'd be great to have supportive examples and links so I get a better understanding of other POVs. Nice nominations and great descriptions for all the nominations above!

 

[Rabia]

​

S -> S- / A+
I've been wanting to talk about Talonflame's ranking for a bit and I don't really feel like it defines the metagame at the moment. The sets that come to mind are Defensive Defog, Offensive Swords Dance, and Bulk Up + Will-O-Wisp. As a defogger, I feel like it's pressured heavily by our Stealth Rockers whether it's Rock-types in Diancie and Rhydon, Rock-type coverage from Mudsdale and Copperajah, and various status moves in Toxic, Trick, and Glare from Mudsdale, Bronzong, and Druddigon, respectively. Because of this, players opt to use more offensive sets and move the hazard role upon another teammate whether that is Silvally-Steel, Xatu, Dhelmise, or Starmie. Swords Dance Talonflame sets have been getting excitement especially because of its Steel Wing lure, notably hitting Diancie. However, the Swords Dance turn has to be predicted correctly on the switch-in to potentially OHKO it assuming its at full HP: (+2 252 Atk Talonflame Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 52+ Def Diancie: 276-328 (90.7 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO). Dropping Flare Blitz or Brave Bird leaves you immensely walled by something and you already struggle to break Mudsdale, Heatproof Bronzong, and Vaporeon without any boosts. This is where Talonflames relies a bit on team support in Silvally-Ground, Doublade, and Toxicroak to help make progress and/or check the listed defensive Pokemon to help it in the late-game. Furthermore, not having Roost leaves it easily worn down by Brave Bird and Flare Blitz recoil damage.

Xatu is the first Pokemon that comes to mind when I need Defogger that can pivot and I personally love Teleport since it safely brings in the next Pokemon. Teambuilding-wise, this allows teammates to not use Heavy-Duty Boots such as Salazzle, Talonflame, Dragalge, Snorlax, and literally anything that doesn't wanna take unnecessary chip damage. Defog being compressed as an ability is amazing and if we look at many of our hazard control users in the tier: Mantine, Braviary, Comfey, and Rotom-C, they'd heavily appreciate using a different move. Talonflame's Dual weakness to Rock causes to fear switching into Knock Off users and lets use Sirfetch'd and Passimian in this sense since it hinders its ability to come back at full from Stealth Rocks.

SCL
Kushalos vs mncmt - Talonflame + Rapid Spin Tsareena
Ren-chon vs Expulso - Talonflame + Defog Mantine
TDK vs Sensei Axew - Talonflame + Defog Articuno
Kushalos vs Expulso - Talonflame + Xatu
Sensei Axew vs Ho3nConfirm3d - Talonflame + Defog Rotom-C

The replays above show examples of Talonflame builds using teammates to fulfill the Defog or Rapid Spin role. Using another Pokemon to perform this role reflects based on the usage statistics for 'Moves and Teammates' during SCL as Defog has a 3.23% usage, Swords Dance with 12.90%, and Bulk Up with 9.68%. I feel like this implies that non-Defog sets are more effective, especially in tournament play. The replays also showcase teammates like Banded Guzzlord & Silvally-Ground, Escavalier & Tauros, Machamp Sirfetch'd & Silvally-Ground, and Xatu to switch in and chip defensive Pokemon.

Mudsdale is a common pair with Talonflame and looking at how a less passive teammate normally uses the hazard role, how it relies on multiple teammates to break past walls, and the statistics and actual builds to back it up, I don't see it as metagame threatening as Rotom-C for example. Its role in the metagame in my eyes is a general fast pivot or late game sweeper and even though its fast, many can agree that running a Choice Scarf user is a natural thing with Talonflame.

I disagree with dropping Talonflame and with the notion that it doesn't define the metagame. If I had the VR my way, I'd probably drop Bronzong out of S at this point because I think the gap between Talonflame and the rest of the tier is huge enough to justify it.

SCL usage is the first teller here, and while usage doesn't mean everything, it's pretty relevant to debunk the "doesn't define the metagame anymore" point. We're seeing Talonflame used on average every match by at least one of the players, and a Pokemon this commonly used still pulling a >60% win rate is actually really impressive. When Pokemon get higher usage, you expect their win rates to converge to 50%; after all, if a Pokemon has 100% usage, that'd mean it has to have a 50% win rate. Additionally, I think Talonflame's efficacy in-game speaks to itself when considering how impactful it is. As a Defogger? Sure, it's fucking terrible. That's why you seldom see it run the move unless the team just desperately needs some role compression. In every other role, though? Talonflame consistently pulls its weight and then some. It's an incredible pivot that easily lures in and takes advantage of a plethora of foes: Diancie, Xatu, and Vaporeon to name a few, and the exploration of offensive sets (with Gale Wings too) has helped Talonflame be more than just this incredible source of utility. The only real knock I can think of Talonflame having is that it mandates hazard control despite getting to run the epic boots because it's almost always gonna eat a Knock Off. but with Xatu being so great and other forms of removal like Rotom-C and even Tsareena pairing well with Talonflame, that issue is not hard to compensate for.

tl;dr Talonflame is the best Pokemon in the tier. It should not be dropping anytime soon.

-> B-

Been using Froslass offense for a few days to ladder, and it's fairly consistent. Spikes / Taunt / Thunder Wave / Icy Wind is a very good lead that doesn't struggle to make some sort of progress except in the worst of matchups (basically just anti-leads like Rock Blast Aerodactyl and Magic Coat Araquanid, neither of which is common). It's seen a fair bit of use in SCL and is pulling a 50% win rate if I'm remembering right, which is certainly passable. It's hard to provide replays for this sort of Pokemon because it literally just leads and tries to get Spikes up, but check out the SCL weeks it was used and you can see the teams it's on performing well (usually).

 

[Aawin]

Expanding on Rabia's nom for up into B- or even B. I'm a fond believer that this mon is probably the best spiker in the tier (move over Garbodor). Works phenomenally as a lead as Rabia also pointed out and has tons of options at its disposal to tap into. Wisp and Twave are really solid options which cripple many mons in the meta, sniping hating both burn and yellow color , (ground) disliking burn, and (most teams fastest mon outside of scarfers) in particular. Froslass is a spiker that doesn't fear the rise of Xatu, something that Garbodor admittedly dislikes being as popular as it has ever been (granted Poison Barb Garb does 2hko Xatu cleanly, shoutouts Expulso for bringing that up in NU Discord the other day).

While lead sets like the one above are definitely the most effective way to use Froslass, I do think offensively oriented/offensive support-y sets do have some merit in the current meta as well. Wisp/Hex/Spikes/Ice Beam seems really baller for being able to punch holes relatively well with some less-than-stellar offenses (props to Meri Berry for suggesting this set). Switcheroo (or Trick, it doesn't matter) shenanigans can limit the effectiveness of an incoming Vaporeon or Sylveon which could prove beneficial for teams. Straight up offensive sets (banded or specs) are probably less than ideal with 80 base attacking stats, you'll be better off running utility more often than not, which leads into my next point..

With the current stage of the meta there is tons of room for viable exploration and expansion on what mons can carve out niches for themselves. We've seen this take place with previous noms of Sneasel, Togedemaru, Tsareena, Omastar, and more. There's been tons of great posts from people shedding light on "unmons," and I'm actually excited to read what each person has to say about the potential of these pokemon when they post about them (not even just the ones mentioned above). This gives me the impression that the meta is in a very solid place at the moment which is pretty comforting for both older and newer players alike.

As always feel free to disagree and let me know if I missed anything important, always up for a good discussion :D

 

[Phantomistix]

Surprised no one's nommed this one yet (corthius doesnt count), but here we go.

A- -> A+/S-

Yes this is not a joke, this mon is definitely top 5 mons in the tier rn, if not top 3.

Set

Vileplume
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 232 HP / 120 Def / 156 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder

This is the set I've been running, but this mon can p much run anything depending on what the team needs. This spread outspeeds max jolly copper/glast, but I've seen vileplumes go as high as ada guzz and nascar diancie. The other common set is max hp, max def.

This mon is deceptively bulky, eating one BB from any talon set, and it's access to strength sap amplifies this physical bulk, allowing it to completely wall mons like snorlax and drapion, copper, non sd tflame, tauros. Strength sap isn't the only reason this mon is A+ imo, it also has access to leech seed, sleep powder, stun spore, infestation, sludge bomb. This mon spreads status like a disease, and can act as a trapper for cheese as well. It can sustain itself for a VERY long duration, lasting a very long time against most cores as shown in this replay from last chance (yes ik it lost, but it took ages to eventually die and took down A LOT with it). It also switches into mow freely, resisting both its STABs and forcing it out due to the looming threat of a sludge bomb, only to poison whatever comes in anyway. It's received decent usage in SCL, and has excelled when used, achieving a whopping 87.5% winrate, which further shows how good this mon actually is.

 

[Corthius]

-> B-

Been using Froslass offense for a few days to ladder, and it's fairly consistent. Spikes / Taunt / Thunder Wave / Icy Wind is a very good lead that doesn't struggle to make some sort of progress except in the worst of matchups (basically just anti-leads like Rock Blast Aerodactyl and Magic Coat Araquanid, neither of which is common). It's seen a fair bit of use in SCL and is pulling a 50% win rate if I'm remembering right, which is certainly passable. It's hard to provide replays for this sort of Pokemon because it literally just leads and tries to get Spikes up, but check out the SCL weeks it was used and you can see the teams it's on performing well (usually).

Sniped me, damn you.
I too want to nominate to B
Spikes offense has been a really solid playstyle and Froslass' utility in Taunt, Icy Wind (I count that for the speed drops), potential Destiny Bond and many others like the ones mentioned above, makes it one of the best suicide leads for those dedicated teams and an overall more reliable spiker on offensive teams. It would only make sense to put it in the same rank as Garbodor. The value Icy Wind provides, especially on Froslass + 5 set up mons type of team is huge, not only scaring out Xatu but also dropping the speed of potential switchins like Talonflame, Drapion and Salazzle which can then be abuses by a sweeper that is now faster. Taunt is nice for opposing hazard setter/set up sweeper and has incredible synergy with Destiny Bond, leaving the opponent with the option to switch out or attack you and getting potentially killed too. I remember using Destiny Bond + Avalanche (basically makes you slower than your opp most of the time because of the -1 prio) in order to get kos on something like an Escavalier switching into you while you're using Destiny Bond and playing around it like that - overall not better than Icy Wind imo but definitely an option to consider.
Offensive Froslass does sound cool but I think Froslass doesn't have the bulk to 1) inflict status 2) get up hazards 3) punch holes with Hex or w/e you wanna use. That sounds (imo) like too much to ask for when it really isn't bulky nor does it have a good defensive typing. If you have replays showing me wrong, please show me them, I will gladly change my POV!
As for tough matchups, lead Aerodactyl is pretty annoying because of Rock Blast and outspeeding you so you are pretty much forced to lead with one of your offensive pokemon to deal with it. Also watch Rabia's YT video about Froslass to get an even better view of what Froslass does in battle.
Replay vs zben; also a nice replay that shows how clutch Cursed Body can be: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1444706512-pa3fce7fvx5ixld4owzy797hijay8bmpw

-> B/B-
Tsareena is a very legitimate pick right now, hence me nominating it to get ranked somewhat high to start out. The main reason I value it pretty highly is NU's hazard control being not the best; yeah, we have a lot of Pokemon that can run or do run Defog or Rapid Spin---Talonflame, Rotom-C, Xatu, Starmie, Mantine, Decidueye, and Dhelmise are all examples---but most of them would, well, really rather not have to slot a removal move onto their moveset. Tsareena doesn't have this issue and provides a lot of positives to a team in the form of Knock Off + pivot support, a pretty decent Ground-resistant Pokemon, and a Rotom-C check.

And yet another nom I have to agree with Rabia but this time I used it after seeing it being nomminated.
to B
Tsareena has been a really good addition to my teambuilding, not even on Spikes teams where you really value not removing your own hazards. What I have been valuing the most out of Tsareena is its ability to have kinda the same role on your team has Defog Rotom-Mow. Ofc they still have a lot of differences like the speed and a Ground immunity is always safer against CB Golurk's Eq but you get the idea. Both are defensive Grass types that can gain momentum for your team and provide hazards removal. What Tsareena has over Rotom-Mow tho is (depending on your choice) either clearic support in Aromatherapy or reliable recovery in Synthesis. The former is what I was looking the most for because the simple change of clearic Tsareena over Rotom-Mow let me run Toxic on Vaporeon (also Wish passing to Tsareena) which has an incredible matchup vs almost anything not named Toxicroak. The speed Tsareena provides is still 'fine enough', outspeeding scary breaker Tyrantrum, Sirfetchd and Exploud. Oh and ofc Knock Off is a broken move and a lot of pokemon that switch into Tsareena really dislike said Knock Off, aka Talonflame, Salazzle and Xatu. 120 attack with an 120 BP STAB move also just claims lifes.
Team featuring said clearic Tsareena and Toxic Vaporeon: https://pokepast.es/aa3f3956fdba7666


to at least A-
I love Passimian. Choice Scarf sets are great speed control lately since the usage of Choice Scarf Rotom-Mow has been getting a bit lower (at least from my experience). It is a really nice pivot for special wallbreaker since it lures the common physical switchins like Talonflame, Mudsdale, Xatu and Garbodor, U-turns on them and brings in breaker like Exploud or even Omastar who got nomminated by etern toget a potential set up. Also, again Knock Off is a broken move and removing Heavy-Duty Boots from Talonflame or Leftovers from Mudsdale paves the way for a potential teammate in the back or just for the own clean lategame.

Surprised no one's nommed this one yet (corthius doesnt count), but here we go.

A- -> A+/S-

Yes this is not a joke, this mon is definitely top 5 mons in the tier rn, if not top 3.

Set

Vileplume
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 232 HP / 120 Def / 156 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder

This is the set I've been running, but this mon can p much run anything depending on what the team needs. This spread outspeeds max jolly copper/glast, but I've seen vileplumes go as high as ada guzz and nascar diancie. The other common set is max hp, max def.

This mon is deceptively bulky, eating one BB from any talon set, and it's access to strength sap amplifies this physical bulk, allowing it to completely wall mons like snorlax and drapion, copper, non sd tflame, tauros. Strength sap isn't the only reason this mon is A+ imo, it also has access to leech seed, sleep powder, stun spore, infestation, sludge bomb. This mon spreads status like a disease, and can act as a trapper for cheese as well. It can sustain itself for a VERY long duration, lasting a very long time against most cores as shown in this replay from last chance (yes ik it lost, but it took ages to eventually die and took down A LOT with it). It also switches into mow freely, resisting both its STABs and forcing it out due to the looming threat of a sludge bomb, only to poison whatever comes in anyway. It's received decent usage in SCL, and has excelled when used, achieving a whopping 87.5% winrate, which further shows how good this mon actually is.

Agreed, but to A/A+

 

[Gigi4444]

I would nominate lycanrock midday form as b rank.
It's usefulness is that is has PRIORITY ROCK MOVE.
Nice coverage in closecombat/sucker punch/ crunch /stealthrock.
Beats talonflame easily
Can be a deadly sweeper with sword dance and focus sash

post 1: It's dusk form is uu and only difference is ability
post 2:
Also I'd nominate shiftry as c rank
It has decent offence and nice coverage
In form of knockoff/sucker punch / leafstorm /heatwave
And boostin moves in nasty plot/sword dance.
If equipped with a focus sash and has pickpocket 9/10 it'll steal enemies item
Best set that I use is mixed sweeper
Sword dance /heatwave
Knockoff
Sucker punch
Leafstorm

Lonely/focus sash/252 atk/252 spark /4spd/pick pocket

roxiee: please don't double/triple post. you can edit your post. Also don't post one-liners. Check out the NU information Hub and Smogon's general posting rules for more informaiton.

 

[Lucario]

yo
--> B-
This is an amazing Pokemon right now. I've talked about it a decent bit in the Discord, so some of you know how high I rate the bear trap right now. 6/7 of Galarfisk's uses in SCL have resulted in it winning, which is really nice for an unranked Pokemon. As a Stealth Rock setter, it is able to check Xatu and is also able to Poison fish with Sludge Bomb. Sludge Bomb also helps dealing with Rotom-Mow, Sylveon, and Special Breakers that it checks. Speaking of, its typing and bulk allow it to check most Special breakers including Rotom-Mow, Goodra, and Heliolisk while also acting as a Volt immune. It also gets Thunder Wave, which is a nice utility option to cripple breakers.
It has a similar/better niche than a few B- and almost all of B. Overall, its niche is great enough that it should be at least B- in the current meta.

 

[TheKingKarp]

love seeing all the discussion lately so I wanted to chime in.

definitely agree with this thing going to A at the minimum. Personally, I've been having a lot of trouble with it and although Xatu is very present, strength sap is just a great move right now and makes this thing so bulky. I think another really great aspect of plume is it's ability to punish/switch into common volt-turners in the tier. Effect spore punishing things like Pass (which is extremely common nowadays) is so great and of course the ability to switch in on mowtom super freely is amazing. Moreover running itemless can prevent guzz and drap from just clicking knock off arbitrarily and the same goes for sirf (although you prob won't bring it in, they'll still have to think twice and risk effect spore), so yeah in summary this thing is dope rn.

agree with this thing going to A-, prob the best scarfer in the tier behind mowtom, and is honestly strong af. base 120 attack is nothing to laugh at especially in NU and having a spammable CC is super nice. in terms of statistics, being 10th in SCL usage and boasting a solid 70% wr just states in my eyes that this thing is good for A-

might be a bit controversial, but I feel like dropping this thing to S- should at least be discussed. I think this definitely has to be attributed to rise and dominance of xatu in recent weeks which is a pretty hard stop to this thing-- although some have been adapting and running shadow ball-- regardless, zong's ID set being completely shut down by xatu just makes this not feel as dominant as it used to be in my eyes. It also just feels a bit constrained, especially with groundvally becoming more popular there's a stronger incentive to run levitate and then you're opening this up to fire types and and vice versa. It's still one of the best pokemon in the tier but It doesnt feel that it has the same spamability/consistency of something like talonflame-- just look at SCL stats 25% usage and a 46% wr compared to talons 50/61.

edit: new stats come out but same points go

 

[Aawin]

I definitely support a rise of . TheKingKarp and Phantomistix have outlined mostly everything I wanted to discuss, however there are some other aspects that Vileplume has going for it. Grass/Poison is a phenomenal defensive typing at the moment, shutting down Mowtom (for the most part, Trick slightly cripples Vileplume), punishing Passimian's U-Turn and CC, as well as being an okay blanket check for Pokemon like Sirfetch'd and Golurk, two incredibly threatening Pokemon. Being a grounded Poison-type is also useful in a meta where Toxic Spikes have been rising in popularity both on ladder as well as in tournament play. While standard Vileplume runs Sludge Bomb/Strength Sap/Giga Drain/Filler (Growth, Sleep Powder, Corrosive Gas/etc.), one set that I've been using as of recent is Infestation/Leech Seed/Sludge Bomb/Strength Sap. I saw this used in SCL and it put in some solid work. With the rise of Escavalier, chipping it down with Infest + Leech as it switches in is incredibly beneficial for partners that are bugged by it, and eliminating most teams Steel-type off the rip shifts the momentum in your favor. Vileplumes bulk is also slightly overlooked, as this mon tanks any one hit from most Pokemon, as Phantomistix also mentioned in his post. Being able to 1v1 standard utility Talonflame, the face of the metagame, is a testimony to how good Vileplume's bulk really is and how nutty Strength Sap truly is. I don't think it's S- at the current moment, but I do think A/A+ is a perfectly fine tier for the mon to rise into.

As always, feel free to disagree and respond if you feel compelled

 

[SweetLou32]

Hello everyone I'm just gonna do the full list of noms in which I do my own personal viabilty list/ nomination changes.

S Rank:

S Rank

Talonflame

S- Rank
Bronzong- Def still one of the best mons I just don't think it's on the same level as flame. Not the easiest to check but def has solid answers, and while it has numerous sets it can run it's still very countable.

Rotom-C

Xatu- This thing is a beast and is so annoying to play against. (Because I don't like using it lol). Magic bounce, teleport, roost, coverage for would be checks, scarf for checks as well. It can do so much and is a key mon in NU rn.

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Copperajah

Diancie

Dragalge

Drapion

Guzzlord

Mudsdale- NU's iconic defensive staple, I see it on almost every team. It obv just lose to special attacks, which is why its not an S mon. , rotom and xatu being its best checks.


A Rank

Escavalier- Not sure how many people will agree with this but escav, in my opinion, is one of the most underrated mons in the meta. There are things that beat it, such as mons with fire coverage. But it can be so devastating to teams. At first, I ran it defensively but I feel like it's much better offensively. Sub/Sd is amazing, and one of the good things about it when subbing up on a mon that can't do anything against it such as vileplume on the switch. It can get a free knock on its best counters. This is great for removing incoming talonflames boots, which is a great way of crippling it. It has great defensive bulk which allows it to survive most things besides fire moves. It also saves your team from mons such as vileplume ( One of my least fav mons lol), FE setup Kingra, because of shell armor, and many dragons and fairys. Also here's a funny replay of it destroying trick room lol. Also just cause of the replay I don't think zong can do anything to escav besides knock, which is a free setup or your own knock.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1449360031-vds1v6vrs81twl8vv888914x62rx1lvpw

Golurk

Goodra

Passimian- Another mon into the A tier. Easily best scarfer in the tear besides rotom. Do I need to say anything else really? Has gunk shot too for fairy and grass types.

Sirfetch'd

Starmie

Sylveon

Vaporeon- Vaporion is a mon I ranked before and I still feel the same way about it. Can wall so, so many mons it's insane. One of the only mons who can take dracos well that doesn't resist or is immune. Just overall very solid choice.

A- Rank

Blastoise

Exploud

Heliolisk

Salazzle- Its a very scary mon don't get me wrong, it's just also underwhelming. In all the matches i played against it, it doesn't put in much work, gets walled completely by wish/ heal bell vap. And drag doesn't mind its stabs either. Subs annoying but they are mons who can deal with it fine.

Silvally-Ground

Vileplume

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Braviary

Decidueye

Mantine- It's a solid mon. I just feel as there are better defog pivitors and being required to run boots and avoid knock at all cost bumps it down.

Tauros

Toxicroak- This hurts me to do :( Croaks just not as formidable as it once was. Its still extremely versatile and usable, its main problem is it has much more checks. Its physical side is thwarted by mud, most scarf are physical as well. And it's hard to setup as easily due to croak not having the best speed tier.

Tyrantrum

B Rank

Araquanid- Whole B tier is kinda weird just because I don't want garbodor being the only mon in it. Araquanid is a solid sticky webs user which I've seen good usage of recently, it also fairly tanking, def has problems tho with low speed.

Comfey- Annoying mon for me. Has good bulk, rarely gets ohko and when it sets up becomes a big threat.

Dhelmise- Great mon that def desreves a raise. Great attacker, good rapid spinner, just kinda slow really.

Garbodor


B- Rank

Aerodactyl- Great anti sr lead, suicide lead, or rock lead. I think it deserves to be put at the bottom of B-.

Arcanine- Lol this thing just doesn't really do much, we have a much better fire type that can pivot and heal. Still has some solid niches tho.

Druddigon- A mon that's been picking up a lot of usage recently and I think its deserving of that. Glare is so useful and sr is great. RH plus RS adds crucial chip for certain MU's.

Indeedee-F- A very scary and strong mon if you aren't prepared. Has fire coverage, and if you misplay can easily take out a mon. Also, terrain allows for certain teams in general to work.

Kingdra

Palossand

Scrafty

C Rank:

C+ Rank

Duraludon

Quagsire

Ninjask- Just isn't threatening with steels and muds around.

Silvally-Ghost

Togedemaru- Great mon that's projected to be NU soon. Scarf is great, iron barbs is great. Fairly solid mon, can be picked off tho.

Weezing

C Rank

Gigalith

Glastrier- This thing just sucks, sr weakness, slow, bad typing, its a shame but it really doesn't do much. Also, is prob dropping to pu so usage isn't in its favor either.

Inteleon

Lycanroc

Machamp

Magneton

Rhydon- I personally have never seen Rhydon being used recently and I feel like it just gets outclassed by other srs.

Sandslash

Silvally-Steel

Sneasel

I also feel as we should have a C- tier and there's some mons id like to nom from UR but I don't have any replays. Thanks for reading and lmk what you think!

 

[Rabia]

As SCL approaches its end (two more weeks counting playoffs!), I want to remind everyone we plan on updating the VR quickly thereafter. In the meantime, though, I wanted to post my personal VR in addition to encouraging you guys to do the same (use hide tags, though, please!). I'm going to provide reasoning for any shifts I view as major and any new rankings.

the rabia vr aka the right one

S Rank:

S Rank

Talonflame

S- Rank

Bronzong

Diancie

Rotom-C

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Dragalge

Guzzlord

Mudsdale

Sylveon

Vileplume (I think Vileplume is incredible because of its great moveset diversity. It only does one general thing yeah, but there exist a myriad of move options that give it different positives. Growth is great at running through bulkier teams, especially in tandem with Strength Sap; Infestation with Leech Seed can trap and beat foes like non-Swords Dance Escavalier one-on-one; and Sleep Powder and Corrosive Gas are just generally good team support.)

Xatu

A Rank

Copperajah

Drapion (I'm really not a huge Drapion fan. Unlike Guzzlord, it's less adept at switching into Ghost-types because of its worse defensive typing, and with Mudsdale and Diancie being everywhere, I don't really see it overwhelming teams ever. It's great at the long game because of Poison Jab + Knock Off, but most balance and bulkier teams can keep up and negate that incremental progress.)

Golurk

Goodra

Salazzle

Starmie

A- Rank

Blastoise

Escavalier (NU has a lot of Steel-types, and I still find Escavalier to be easy enough to slot onto teams and incredibly effective when chosen. The raw bulk is really great, and although it's worse than its competition at handling wallbreakers like Goodra and Sylveon that carry Fire-type coverage, it's about as consistent at blanket checking other ones like Inteleon and Starmie. Protect sets with Swords Dance or Toxic can win games long-term.)

Exploud

Heliolisk

Passimian

Silvally-Ground

Sirfetch'd

Toxicroak

Vaporeon

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Braviary

Decidueye

Doublade (Doublade hasn't impressed me too much so far, but I do pay a fair bit of attention to it while building. Swords Dance + Shadow Sneak can take over games pretty easily, and the physical bulk is really good; you can avoid an OHKO from +2 Silvally-Ground. I think here is where we see the Steel-type competition really set in because Doublade requires a much different sort of support than Bronzong, Escavalier, or Copperajah due to its poor special bulk, but I'm not nearly as low on it as others pushing for it to be ranked a sub-tier lower.)

Mantine

Tauros

Tyrantrum

B Rank

Comfey

Palossand

Rhydon

Scrafty

Snorlax (Already can tell I'm going to be shit talked on by some random splinter Discord for this take LOOOOOL but seriously, Snorlax is maybe the most overrated Pokemon in the tier this side of Blastoise. Without a doubt it's an INSANE threat in the teambuilder; I think from a glance of most teams you have, you'd look at them and question the reliability of your Snorlax matchup because if it gets Curse boosts under its belt, it can be quite hard to stop. That's the key word, though: if. I find that in practice, Snorlax struggles to consistent set up and take games over and forces really flimsy teambuilding. You can't really use it like you can Escavalier as a combination of early-game bulk and late-game threat mostly because Snorlax lacks a way to do much of anything outside of... throw off Body Slams I guess? The unreliability of Rest as a recovery move is also worth pointing out here; in the context of NU, keeping momentum up is really crucial because of the litany of stupid wallbreakers we have. With Snorlax, it's really easy to find yourself on the backfoot because it does such a bad job of that. It causes you to lose tempo really easily when being forced to Rest, and it also takes a decent amount of boosts before it's actually much of a threat.)

Tsareena

B- Rank

Araquanid

Dhelmise

Druddigon

Ferroseed (I've been using Ferroseed a good bit lately, and it's a solid enough Spiker + Water-type check for me to rank it fairly high. Being cucked by Xatu is a travesty, but the tier isn't without wallbreakers that exploit that sort of linear gameplay, so I've found it consistent nonetheless.)

Froslass

Garbodor

Kingdra

Weezing

C Rank:

C+ Rank

Aerodactyl

Duraludon

Glastrier (This Pokemon sucks to teambuild with. Its checks are incredibly common, and its niche is not worth pursuing unless you just want to use it because you like Glastrier.)

Inteleon

Ninjask (Ninjask is not the late-game terror it once was and typically relies on very repetitive team structures to succeed. In my experience, you need the power of Acrobatics now more than ever as the power level of the tier has increased, forcing more team support than in previous metas.)

Quagsire

Sneasel

Togedemaru

C Rank

Arcanine (It's not worth using 9/10 times. Talonflame is too good to justify using Arcanine over it unless you really need the Ice resistance and increased overall bulk.)

Articuno (TDK used it to fine success in SCL. I'm unsure if it's an actual component of the metagame or not, but I'd be fine to see it ranked.)

Indeedee-F

Machamp

Silvally-Steel

Stunfisk-Galar (Good SCL performance, compresses several roles into one teamslot, sounds C rank to me.)

Omastar (Eternally has owned the ladder with this Pokemon a lot lately. I could see it going higher, but competition with Blastoise is enough to keep me somewhat leery of its ceiling.)

Things I unranked:

: Sand isn't getting enough real play to keep ranked in my eyes. It's probably fine enough, but being forced to use Gigalith is just such a travesty.

: I'm not convinced Magneton was ever good. I've had a bit of success pairing it with Quiver Dance Ribombee in the past, but... that means using two really niche Pokemon and hoping for matchup. Not very reliable and would rather not rank for that reason.

: Silvally-Ghost hasn't been used in ages, and for good reason. Its Multi-Attack is not very spammable given the high usage of Pokemon like Guzzlord, Drapion, and even Tauros. It also has to compete with Silvally-Ground, which is a much more consistent sweeper. Just too hard to bother using in this meta.