I was about to mention Braviary but then I remembered it evolves at like level 60. What the hell?
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(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon
- Thread starter BriarRose
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Truth be told, the thing that confuses me the most about how relatively little BDSP adapted directly from Platinum other than the obvious game design improvements themselves which people have lamented dozens of times by now is that Legends Arceus seems to be doing exactly that despite essentially being a new game. In previews alone we've seen
-Charon and Darach-based shopkeepers
-Full Platinum additions incorporated directly into the Pokedex (no Underground compromises which don't even get all the evos and stuff, they're all in the overworld with Rhyhorn and Ralts even being smack-dab on the cover)
-Volcanic Stark Mountain
-I bet my left nut Distortion World will be in but that's not confirmed so I'll hold back for now
If the intent was for these games to be companion pieces to one another for both newcomers and veterans, this just feels like such a strange incongruity. Take the Platinum character ancestors for instance: For people who just familiarized themselves with modern Sinnoh via BDSP, what sort of reaction do they expect to get from these players towards characters who descendants are total unknowns to them? Now of course Hisui is a whole different ballgame from Platinum Sinnoh so they won't be getting EVERY alteration one to one, but Game Freak is pretty clearly understanding and appreciative of what that game brought to the region on at least a general level. As it stands it just feels like there was some under-communication going on, that ILCA wasn't given correct direction to prevent this weird discrepancy even when you put the irritating regressions and their consequences themselves aside.
-Charon and Darach-based shopkeepers
-Full Platinum additions incorporated directly into the Pokedex (no Underground compromises which don't even get all the evos and stuff, they're all in the overworld with Rhyhorn and Ralts even being smack-dab on the cover)
-Volcanic Stark Mountain
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If the intent was for these games to be companion pieces to one another for both newcomers and veterans, this just feels like such a strange incongruity. Take the Platinum character ancestors for instance: For people who just familiarized themselves with modern Sinnoh via BDSP, what sort of reaction do they expect to get from these players towards characters who descendants are total unknowns to them? Now of course Hisui is a whole different ballgame from Platinum Sinnoh so they won't be getting EVERY alteration one to one, but Game Freak is pretty clearly understanding and appreciative of what that game brought to the region on at least a general level. As it stands it just feels like there was some under-communication going on, that ILCA wasn't given correct direction to prevent this weird discrepancy even when you put the irritating regressions and their consequences themselves aside.
I don't get why we're spoilering this, there's nothing about it that's a spoiler...
but the answer is probably a combination of "It's a new game, and not meant to follow off BDSP" and "it's Gamefreak's baby and they can do what they want"
or inversely, I feel pretty much guaranteed that BDSP is so bizarrely faithful down to the dumbest detail on the back of not wanting a third party to go whole hog on a game they already made. Or if we want to be less cynical, ILCA had less experience with a Pokemon title & were developing it during a pandemic, and using the DP so rigidly meant they could focus on implementing that rather than rebalancing literally everything alongside implementing the new/changed side content.
Not using Platinum as that base line could be tied into "not wanting to tweak it more to pick & choose what is DP and what is PT".
Basically if ILCA had been responsible for HGSS, it would probably more closesly resemble the original GS way more, if you catch my drift. And if you thought ORAS was overly faithful before, well, just imagine if they had ILCA on it.
but the answer is probably a combination of "It's a new game, and not meant to follow off BDSP" and "it's Gamefreak's baby and they can do what they want"
or inversely, I feel pretty much guaranteed that BDSP is so bizarrely faithful down to the dumbest detail on the back of not wanting a third party to go whole hog on a game they already made. Or if we want to be less cynical, ILCA had less experience with a Pokemon title & were developing it during a pandemic, and using the DP so rigidly meant they could focus on implementing that rather than rebalancing literally everything alongside implementing the new/changed side content.
Not using Platinum as that base line could be tied into "not wanting to tweak it more to pick & choose what is DP and what is PT".
Basically if ILCA had been responsible for HGSS, it would probably more closesly resemble the original GS way more, if you catch my drift. And if you thought ORAS was overly faithful before, well, just imagine if they had ILCA on it.
Here's the thing about BDSP: it's literally DP code slapped in Unity (or w/e engine it's on, but I remind reading it's Unity) and given a graphic uplift.
The reason for which it mostly does 1:1 to DP and not Plat, and the reason for it to have kept several if not all of DP bugs is... just that.
Same reason for which for example diagonal movement is atrociously buggy on it, the geodata of DP didn't exactly account for diagonal movement so diagonal collision detection is wonky as heck.
There's no "decisions" in it, there's very little if any conscious choice. ILCA was given DP as base and they had to build on it, and probably just used the extra time they had to implement the various lategame changes we know of.
Whenever that was GF's decision, or theirs, or someone else's, we can't exactly know, but there's no other reason than the fact BDSP is basically DP translated in Unity.
I mean most of what I said still applies in that case. That was still a decision made at the very top of development, first of all.
& even ported over they still could have done tweaks, even minor ones. Like my thing goes beyond "the map is the same" it goes to they didn't edit a single encounter rate or level, anywhere for example. Something they definitely could have easily done, and something even the more "faithful" previous remakes did.
And it's not like they couldn't edit on top of that ported base, we know they did even ignoring some post game stuff. There were additional changes that could have been done, but weren't.
Honestly if anything if it really is just a straight port that they built on top of, it just makes me double down on my other statement: done to account for ILCA, whether that's gamefreak not wanting a third party (& assorted contractors, I guess that's how ILCA operates? there'es a lot of them in this game), ILCA not having a lot of experience with building a whole pokemon game (or whatever), or helping to accomodate a pandemic development that's gotta be out by a certain time
Is there any proof of that?
That the game is made in Unity there's plenty of sources around.
As for the "copypaste", I've heard it from speedrunners who have basically been replicating more or less every glitch existing in DP in BDSP, to the point the run is at a extremely low WR already.
Heck someone just yesterday posted they found a glitch in DP that wasn't known because they found it in BDSP.
If you're curious of all the found glitches by now... (there's a lot)
https://gist.github.com/rlaphoenix/36387d1952a0c9778eb8c64550183f29
I hate how boxy DPPT maps are. The obstacle portions are good playerwise, but feel unnatural especially later
The league is pitifully bare
Vs OG Gen 3s Evergrande having a nicely formed island, turns, tiles, unique rock wall tiles, and overhangs
https://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/1/1a/Ever_Grande_City_E.png
I just really wish Gen 4 they did what Rangers and Mystery Dungeon did where they took full advantage of 2D and ditched the 4 direction limit. Instead it added more with the 3D tiles Gen 4 and 5
At least 5 had a spline system and more dynamic camera, but it still feels limited base movement wise
The league is pitifully bare
Vs OG Gen 3s Evergrande having a nicely formed island, turns, tiles, unique rock wall tiles, and overhangs
https://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/1/1a/Ever_Grande_City_E.png
I just really wish Gen 4 they did what Rangers and Mystery Dungeon did where they took full advantage of 2D and ditched the 4 direction limit. Instead it added more with the 3D tiles Gen 4 and 5
At least 5 had a spline system and more dynamic camera, but it still feels limited base movement wise
I’m not particularly annoyed with the fact it got ported to Unity at all, though only an issue graphic-wise. I find it very interesting, in fact, especially with how malleable games made with Unity is and how relatively easy developing stuff with the later is as far as I recall.
Now that BDSP is officially released, I’m becoming real annoyed how GF doesn’t take advantage of the held items they crafted over time and make creative teams. We know making real difficulty is difficult if not impossible, but as I say earlier…
“If you can’t make it hard, then make it fun.”
Outside of the ICLA-made BDSP, very few major NPCs are making use of the held items outside of Z-Crystals, and far few major NPCs are using Mega Stones in the main game of XY and to a lesser extent, ORAS. Combined with too much emphasis with level up movesets in the case of the first three or four Generations, and you have teams of major trainers that aren’t really well thought out except the final bosses (if even them), especially bad with the awfully sudden level spike encouraging brute forcing even further.
Having more creative teams like the first battle vs Raihan and many Gym Leaders and Elite Four in BDSP for main game, minus the annoying evasion spam in major trainers, allows players to show what a variety of Pokémon are capable off beyond simple rock-paper-scissor fighting without having to wait to get into the post-game… And not all post-game major trainers are winners, unfortuantely.
Now that BDSP is officially released, I’m becoming real annoyed how GF doesn’t take advantage of the held items they crafted over time and make creative teams. We know making real difficulty is difficult if not impossible, but as I say earlier…
“If you can’t make it hard, then make it fun.”
Outside of the ICLA-made BDSP, very few major NPCs are making use of the held items outside of Z-Crystals, and far few major NPCs are using Mega Stones in the main game of XY and to a lesser extent, ORAS. Combined with too much emphasis with level up movesets in the case of the first three or four Generations, and you have teams of major trainers that aren’t really well thought out except the final bosses (if even them), especially bad with the awfully sudden level spike encouraging brute forcing even further.
Having more creative teams like the first battle vs Raihan and many Gym Leaders and Elite Four in BDSP for main game, minus the annoying evasion spam in major trainers, allows players to show what a variety of Pokémon are capable off beyond simple rock-paper-scissor fighting without having to wait to get into the post-game… And not all post-game major trainers are winners, unfortuantely.
I agree that the code was probably based on DP but on glitches I feel it's the opposite, most of the BDSP glitches are new and are based on the new overworld movement or menu storage, and even the DP glitch was actually found because BDSP fixed it.
That was mainly my point, the new glitches based on the overworld movement are very likely due to having had the same geodata for the maps, which never took in consideration the possibility of moving freely instead than on a set square pattern.
And you know what, I think that's okay.
As R_N will mention later, I don't want an impossible battle or a battle that'll take me hours to grind beforehand to beat. But that doesn't mean I don't like seeing at least some effort. I'm okay with an easy battle if they at least make it an interesting experience, though this usually involves your and the opponent's Pokemon being relatively equally leveled which is why the "always on, every gets experience" Exp. Share is such a gamebreaker because it makes it less likely you'll get those interesting battle situations.
That's what makes Nuzlockes interesting in a way. Any player who prepares beforehand is very likely gonna win (hax not withstanding), but those smaller hax moments where the NPC for a moment gets the upperhand or KOs one of your Pokemon (or even a near KO) feels way more surprising and/or tense than going into a battle you know you're gonna win/lose (though in the latter case I guess pulling off a victory against the odds, usually being underleveled, has it's own feeling of gratification).
What genre of games that isn't PvP isn't like that?
*Starts getting worried for Gen V remakes and what always on Exp. Share would do to its level progression*
These (or at least something adjacent to them) are pretty much the only way you're gonna have any way of "balancing" the game (or at least have battles last long enough where, you're obviously still gonna win, but it creates that interesting experience I mentioned).
Level Restriction: I think it would be rather easy to implement the Battle Facility level restriction into the game progression via the Badges/Stamps/whatever goal posts they use. Pretty much, while your Pokemon obviously still gain Levels which lets them learn more powerful Moves, they can make it so their stats have a "cap" until you get the next Badge which increases the "cap" to the new expected threshold. And in doing so that can solve a lot of issues we've talked about with game balance/interesting experience and even stuff like trading over a Pokemon that's higher level. With their being a "cap" it would be easier to plan boss encounters and also encourage using other Pokemon if they haven't reached the cap instead of relying on a core few (BUT still give you the option to only focus on a core team if that's what you want, you just won't see the benefits of the extra levels until you get the next Badge; unlike how it is now where players are using multiple teams in order to try and mitigate the Exp. Share & Affection effects). This would also make implementing difficulty modes easier if there's a "max" the developers can plan around.
Boss Boons: Like, Pokemon is the only game where I know the bosses essentially play by the same rules as the player, and as we see it could easily make the bosses a non-factor. So I wouldn't be against giving the Gym Leaders, Pokemon League (except maybe the Champion), and villain team a way to make themselves more of a challenge or battle to be remembered. I mean, most of the time the player is walking right into the territory/planned scheme of the boss so you would think they would have some way to setup an advantage. And we're talking simple stuff here like just raising their Pokemon's stats, having a Weather/Terrain/Room active (and remain so) when the battle starts, and maybe have a way to apply another Status Move/Ability effect upon their entire team cause you're in their house. And maybe if the situation can call for it, maybe do something extra like have a Battle Facility-like playstyle or the Gym Leader messes with you like Opal in SwSh (though these should be done only like, once or twice a game, as I don't think these Boss Boons should really affect your Pokemon like decreasing their stats or afflicting them with status ailments).
54. And that's because in White your found Rufflet earliest on Route 10, yeah, pretty much before the Pokemon League and they're Level 39/41 (and remember Ghetsis's Hydreigon, the final boss of the main game, is Level 54). Yeah, in the original games you weren't using Braviary during your initial match against the Pokemon League (same also goes for Mandibuzz), it would be the rematches.
In White 2 they tried to make this better by letting you catch a special Braviary/Mandibuzz on Route 4 at Level 25... though unfortunately its only on a specific day and they're restricted to only have their Hidden Ability (not too bad for Braviary which has Defiant, but Mandibuzz comes with Weak Armor). I don't remember whether I got "lucky" or waited but I got this Braviary and it was fun to have on my team, likely was my strongest Pokemon for a while before the others caught up.
But yeah, it's an old story that the Unova mons DESPERATELY need to have their evolution levels decreased. Actually, this can go for a lot of Pokemon, seriously they need to start changing evolutions levels so there's two kinds:
- A "game progression" one which depends on the game you're playing and thus is constantly changing depending on when you catch the Pokemon in the game.
- A "base" one for general uses if the Pokemon isn't catchable in the game. Though if GF wants to be lazy and only do one this one would be preferred and, if a Pokemon is catchable in the wild above its evo level, either use its evo, have it be unevolved for one level, or better yet just make it available earlier in the game somewhere.
Miscommunication when Masuda "when I get in a mood I give development directions that make no f***ing sense even I don't understand when I get out of the mood" is game director? No...
If I were to be unbias as I can, I think it probably went down like this:
GF: ILCA, we've hired you to make the DP remakes. Cause we'll be busy with Legends: Arceus, we can't really give you much new creative decisions so just remake what's there.
ILCA: What about the Platinum additions?
GF: It has features that aren't necessary and would take too much time to parse through the other data that could be split between DP. Just focus on DP.
ILCA: What about the dex? Platinum made it so all Gen IV Pokemon were obtainable.
GF: Oh, right. Um, how about this: since we're not going to have the connectivity stuff in the Underground, revamp it so that it's like a Wild Area where you can catch Pokemon that aren't normally available including ones that were added into the Platinum dex.
ILCA: The redone Gyms and Gym teams?
GF: They would take extra time to make, focus on the simpler DP ones.
ILCA: What about the added story elements?
GF: Not needed.
ILCA: But what about Charon and the Frontier Brains?
GF: They're not that important to know about *had forgotten or hadn't thought of adding their ancestors to Legends yet*. We just need players to know generally about the Sinnoh games so we can say we've done them and have a vague knowledge when going into Legends: Arceus to get the references.
ILCA: Are we allowed to make any significant changes?
GF: Erm, no mostly. Like, as long as they're beatable, you could change up some of the boss's movesets as long as you keep their Pokemon the same. Also you can give them tougher teams for rechallenges in the post game.
ILCA: Only allowed to change their movesets and make tougher post game teams, not much but it's enough wiggle room for some fun...
GF just wanted to get the game out there and ILCA just complying while taking whatever allowance they were given and running with it. I still feel GF were being gatekeep-y and greedy (rushing the game out to make early profit instead of taking at least the bit of time to have the base be Platinum which split to having the Diamond & Pearl exclusivities), but it's likely just out of wanting to get the remakes out of the way so they can focus on Legends than being jerks to ILCA. Had GF hired a bigger third developer they likely would have been given more freedom to make changes, but GF hired ILCA because they know they can make a game and so they gave them a set of blueprints to strictly follow so they wouldn't have to worry about overseeing them.
Non turn based games usually will always have some degree of reliance of "just git gud", due to having the fact you have to execute commands "in real time".
Sure if they are RPGs there's still likely the chance you can overlevel and bruteforce a boss, but that's not a rule.
You're not going to be able to overlevel a mission in GTA, you can't overlevel a boss in Bayonetta or DMC, you're not going to be able to win at a sports game by getting higher level players (...ok we do not speak of latest FIFA games), you're not going to overlevel a Roguelike or even a Roguelite, you're also not going to bruteforce a fighting game either, and usually even in modern single player RTS the games put some sort of "soft timer" either by you running out of resources or a literal timer on finishing a mission.
In general there's always some "mechanic execution" you have to do in real time games, or a punishment for death (in case of roguelikes).
Turn based games... rarely if ever do. Even the so fabled SMT games which everyone praises as "difficult" are RPG games and once you know what's coming, you're just going to face every boss with the
(No, "death to RNG" is not on my list of what makes a game hard, it's on my list of what makes a game frustrating)
In general (bar some very specific exceptions with roguelikes that force permadeath or straight up punish experimenting) once you remove the "real time" element from a game, you make the game basically become "do you know the strategy? Yes you win, No you lose" and the "difficulty" only becomes either bruteforcing the element via grinding, or reading the strat on the internet.
Pokemon specifically is heavily influenced by it, due to the fact there's no strategic element in a battle (during main story, at least) other than type matchups. Every turn always plays "one act first, other acts after", only deciding factor being speed, as opponent moves won't change between battles (Incidentally what makes PvP and battle facilities harder, the fact you don't actually know what you have against).
Now, if boss battles had their pokemon change each time you try, that'd be a possibility to make the game a bit more challenging, but still pretty limited due to the whole "gym" system meaning usually opponent pokemon will share weaknesses, but even then, it's still nothing you can't just smash your face at then win once you know all the options the enemy has.
You can notice something like that in the difference between say, Final Fantasy X, and the previous entries that were ATB based instead of purely turn based: the fact you had to pick on the fly (well if you didn't enable the "pause while menuing" option) significantly increased the difficulty of these games because you had to actually pick your moves quickly and couldnt stop to ponder "uhm do i cast Cura on my low HP party member, or do I cast Haste so I can get more turns to heal the party faster, or do I attack and heal with the next one", as well as not seeing the enemy's ATB bar meaning you couldn't know when the next attack was going to come.
The lack of having to execute "on the fly" really hurts any type of challenge you can propose in turn based games. Pokemon just suffers from it even more due to how "simple" the combat system is on basic level
(We all know it's actually pretty complex, but that complexity only happens when enemies have "infinite" options)
You know, I know you made that dialogue more of a meme, but a part of me wonders if one of the reasons for picking DP over Plat as base was simply cause that way there was a "sureproof" way to recreate both versions, while if they used Plat at base it'd actually have required some more thought on how to split stuff, expecially the expanded pokedex available.
Well they kind of already thought of how to split them up, for what it's worth .Elekid/Magby are an obvious one, but they also made Gligar & Scyther VE to Diamond. Pearl gets non-PT dex pokemon (still dont get why Teddiursa...why not just use a different 2-stage platinum line...?), but it's easy to see that they'd just grab a different set to make VE.
Then just leave the remainder to be in both versions while otherwise using the DP VE list.
Then just leave the remainder to be in both versions while otherwise using the DP VE list.
One of the keys with the difficulty discussion that people ignore is resource expenditure. If you're going through a cave or whatever, then the random wilds are not a threat, and neither is the Hiker with 3 Geodudes at lvl 30. But they do drain your resources, which makes the rival fight at the end of the cave more of a threat.
In theory.
The issue is, money for healing items is too easy to get, and even if it's not, players can just leave and heal up before the end, then return. That makes draining the player's resources rather inconsistent for the game designers. You'll have some people who walk into fights with half their team red barred and other people who use a potion no matter what. And that makes a fight that's designed to be a challenge for a full-health team turn into a white out for everyone else, while a fight designed for a team that's nearly wiped is a joke to veteran players who are used to using repels, dodging spinners, and stockpiled drinks instead of potions.
Recent games have done a lot of forced heals so the player is always on full, or banned leaving so that you actually have to spend resources, in order to make the challenge level the same for all players, but both of those matter more for major fights like gyms, and don't make the wild-spam routes more interesting.
In theory.
The issue is, money for healing items is too easy to get, and even if it's not, players can just leave and heal up before the end, then return. That makes draining the player's resources rather inconsistent for the game designers. You'll have some people who walk into fights with half their team red barred and other people who use a potion no matter what. And that makes a fight that's designed to be a challenge for a full-health team turn into a white out for everyone else, while a fight designed for a team that's nearly wiped is a joke to veteran players who are used to using repels, dodging spinners, and stockpiled drinks instead of potions.
Recent games have done a lot of forced heals so the player is always on full, or banned leaving so that you actually have to spend resources, in order to make the challenge level the same for all players, but both of those matter more for major fights like gyms, and don't make the wild-spam routes more interesting.
This is a relatively small thing, but as a Shining Pearl player, I’m irked by the choice to have the Color Changer Pokétch app require you to show a Kecleon to an NPC, when Kecleon is exclusive to Brilliant Diamond.
Evidently this was a problem in the originals as well, so of course BDSP were going to inherit it, but, y’know, they didn’t have to keep it that way.
Evidently this was a problem in the originals as well, so of course BDSP were going to inherit it, but, y’know, they didn’t have to keep it that way.
Do any of the pearl exclusives unlock anything to balance it out?
No. The "show pokemon" Poketch apps are Snorlax and Kecleon
OK so I've been running all over clearing out areas to get over the 300 hump for the final (as far as i'm concerned) critical catch chance increase and god the cave encounters in DP are so stupid. There's two in particular that stand out in my mind: Iron Island & Snowpoint Temple
You know what's in Iron Island? The same shit as always: Golbat, Graveler, Onix and the "unique" thing to it, Steelix.
A place called "Iron" Island, you'd expect to have steel types! Now, on one hand, I get it. The Sinnoh Dex didnt have many steel types, but at least put Bronzor in? Hell, maybe even put steel cloak burmy and wormadam! That'd be novel, and not involve honey trees (big positive).
And every cave is like this. You get Zubat/Golabt, Geodude/Graveler, Onix is probably there and then you get """"Variety"""" slot that is only occasionally put in, like Machoke or Meditite.
Platinum didn't do anything with this either! You could have put Nosepass in here, or Magnemite. Or hell, how about the Rhyhorn line? Rhydon's got the fancy drill, it'd even fit the "tough mining" aesthetic.
But the worst one is definitely Snowpoint. This is a post game dungeon and you know what it has? THE SAME THINGS AS IRON ISLAND and also Sneasel. "You'll find lots of rare pokemon in there" - Candice, a liar. Platinum "tried" to rectify this by replacing Steelix with Smoochum/Jynx, but it's post game! Just put a bunch of ice types in here in both games. Put the swinub line, the delibirds, snorunt. Add a little pool of water, get a Lapras involved.
You know what's in Iron Island? The same shit as always: Golbat, Graveler, Onix and the "unique" thing to it, Steelix.
A place called "Iron" Island, you'd expect to have steel types! Now, on one hand, I get it. The Sinnoh Dex didnt have many steel types, but at least put Bronzor in? Hell, maybe even put steel cloak burmy and wormadam! That'd be novel, and not involve honey trees (big positive).
And every cave is like this. You get Zubat/Golabt, Geodude/Graveler, Onix is probably there and then you get """"Variety"""" slot that is only occasionally put in, like Machoke or Meditite.
Platinum didn't do anything with this either! You could have put Nosepass in here, or Magnemite. Or hell, how about the Rhyhorn line? Rhydon's got the fancy drill, it'd even fit the "tough mining" aesthetic.
But the worst one is definitely Snowpoint. This is a post game dungeon and you know what it has? THE SAME THINGS AS IRON ISLAND and also Sneasel. "You'll find lots of rare pokemon in there" - Candice, a liar. Platinum "tried" to rectify this by replacing Steelix with Smoochum/Jynx, but it's post game! Just put a bunch of ice types in here in both games. Put the swinub line, the delibirds, snorunt. Add a little pool of water, get a Lapras involved.
The spam with Zubat line, Geodude line and Onix is already aggravating, but then one realize this is also the case with the Zubat and Geodude lines in almost every other generations.
Think about it. High encounter rate of these lines in every single caves. This adds up quickly.
This also applies to the Tentacool line in almost every sea routes, and Basculin to every water routes in Gen 5.
Wouldn’t this fact make the Zubat line, Geodude line and Tentacool line alarmingly infesting and destructively invasive in almost every single region?
In Sinnoh it feels like every water route has the same infestation of 6 pokemon
Which is a weird thing to say, I realize, considering that accounts for just about every water pokemon in the dex that aren't Shellos & Buizel.
But hunting for super rod encounters, it's just there, in my mind, alongside a wonder of "did they really need to make every single national dex rod encounter between 5 & 15% max"
Sinnoh at the very least had a larger variety of Pokemon between the game's various sea routes and thus is an improvement over previous regions:
Kanto: Tentacool and Tentacruel
Johto: Tentacool, Tentacruel, and Mantine(Except in Silver version which has no Mantine)
Hoenn: Tentacool, Tentacruel, Wingull, Pelipper
All of the above Pokemon can be found on sea routes on top of Mantyke. It's not a good variety, but it is something. The post-game sea routes also have Seel/Dewgong (Diamond and Brilliant Diamond) and Spheal/Sealeo(Pearl/Shining Pearl/Platinum)
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Sinnoh surfing was also very reduced, generally just being used for short cuts and a couple short side areas, and any time it does come up it's generally very short routes.
They probably reduced it because of Hoenn backlash, honestly, it does not feel like a coincidence.
Post gen-4 caves are, imo, significantly better. Even though they tend to have the same couple mons in all or most of the caves, they usually make up for it with more variety in addition to them.
Wellspring Cave (baby's first cave) and Challenger's Cave (the final cave) might both have Roggenrola line, Woobat line, Drilbur line, but the latter also has Graveler, Riolu, Lickitung, Sableye & Mawile.
Twist mountain has some ice types, Chargestone is significantly more unique, Victory Road tried to break up the monotony with some Rufflets/Vullaby, Fraxure & Heatmor outside and Mienfoo, Durant & Deino inside.
XY kept that up a lot since its design ethos was "every route has 90% different pokemon in it". Galar only has 2 caves but hey! They're pretty different from each other!
SM I think fell back on old habits, but I do recall the various caves still having attempts at more variety and liking to break up with an outside section with more variety.