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Can anyone explain to me why people think magnet pull should be banned and not magnezone itself? Imo magnet pull seems like a balanced ability, only being able to trap steels, many of which can hit opposing steel types super effectively (tran, and melm) or can pivot out of it (scizor).
The main argument brought by pro-ban people is that trapping abilities are uncompetitive by nature. "Trapping abilities prevent a basic, fundamental action of play with little to no possible means to avoid that" that's roughly the main argument.
From this observation also comes the need to decide a general line of action when it comes to all trapping abilities, or not: since magnet pull is the only one still allowed, it technically creates inconsistencies with the main argument of "trapping abilities are uncompetitive", so voices have been heard for this reason as well.
Obviously, this type of thought process - whether you agree with it or not at any point - doesn't really warrant any special attention to be given to magnezone, which is why the discussion is never about the Pokémon and always about the ability.
I tried to keep it short and impartial, hope you got the idea :)
It's a combination of some people arguing that trapping abilities in general should be banned (usually as a response to the common arguments made during Arena Trap's suspect, and sometimes even extends to trapping moves; honestly most of these arguments seem in bad faith to me, but they exist) and then also because we saw during the Dugtrio suspect in Gen 7 that Diglett and Trapinch were still problems, and Magneton is way closer to Magnezone than Diglett is to Dugtrio.
I've heard about diglett and trapinch coming in to take dugtruo's place, and I understand zone is far closer to ton than diglett is to Dugtrio, its just that I don't see magnemite being able to do what either of them do in gen 8 ou.
The main argument brought by pro-ban people is that trapping abilities are uncompetitive by nature. "Trapping abilities prevent a basic, fundamental action of play with little to no possible means to avoid that" that's roughly the main argument.
From this observation also comes the need to decide a general line of action when it comes to all trapping abilities, or not: since magnet pull is the only one still allowed, it technically creates inconsistencies with the main argument of "trapping abilities are uncompetitive", so voices have been heard for this reason as well.
Obviously, this type of thought process - whether you agree with it or not at any point - doesn't really warrant any special attention to be given to magnezone, which is why the discussion is never about the Pokémon and always about the ability.
I tried to keep it short and impartial, hope you got the idea :)
Thanks for responding and clearing things up. I want to clarify why I would think zone would be more worthy of a suspect test than magnet pull is at least imo for an ability to be broken, any pokemon that gets that ability becomes broken i.e. bidoof in gen 5 ubers(moody), cacnea in gen 3 ou(sand veil), and trapinch and diglett every ou since gen 4(arena trap) iirc. Tbh I don't see magnemite pulling off what zone and tone can do.
I will admit I am surprised to see Kyruem being tested I have never had much of an issue with it. Though I will fully admit that is likely due to me using Blissey and/or Clefable on most of my teams, If you run that core it shuts down Kyruem pretty hard.
Hi to anyone reading this, I hope you are having a good day c:
I recently got low reqs for the Kyu suspect, so I've been messing around with some other stuff trying to get a better record. In the middle of that I decided to try out ttar ho, but wasn't sure of what to use as last. Enter BRIGHTPOWDER + SAND VEIL GARCHOMP. I've talked about brightpowder being dumb, and I know sand veil was even in the last survey, but I really wanted to make the post cause I can't understand how this awful and unhealthy strat is still allowed. As stated, I just started playing from a fresh acc and thus only have 6 games with my team. Out of those 6, 4 got the spotlight:
Keep in mind that these weren't long games, so Garchomp didn't get too much chances to dodge nor to get hit. In the first two games, it dodged 1/3; in the third one it dodged 1/4; in the last one it dodged 3/3. I'll now talk about some points of contention:
a) This happens everywhere and not just in low ladder: Ofc the teams not being the best helped garchomp sweep in most of the games. However, how much would it have changed if it had been on high ladder? The Hitmontop missed mach punch, so what if Weavile had missed an ice shard? Idt this makes a real difference, as accuaracy is the same across all parts of the ladder. I would like to share a replay I got while doing my reqs run:
Ofc I am OUTH 4Aqours. Is this game the best example? Ofc not, but it goes to show that you are never out of the woods against this, as I was up 4-2 and ready to click the last moves, but only won cause Garchomp missed it's own attack at the end.
b) Is not unreliable: I mean, it probably is unreliable, but is it? As I said, I've only played 6 games with the team and 4 of those replays are featured here. I didn't even include the one where a Rotom-H missed a toxic, cause that moves can miss with or without dodging abilities/items. If you have some replays to share, please do so.
c) Is unhealthy: Idk if it's just me, but as you saw in the replays, I sacked ttar just so garchomp could have 1-3 turns on sand. I didn't even think about using the team like that, but as the game started, I thought that was my best shot everytime. Also, how is this any different that back when players were trying to win games outright by getting 3-4 flinches in a row?
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All in all, this item and this ability are just dumb. No one is using them over Rough Skin for any reason other than trying to cheese their opponent. I'll keep on playing with this team for a little bit and may post replays if I think is worth it. I look forward to reading everyone's opinions.
I disagree with point B. Though I agree with the ultimate conclusion from this point. The strategy banks on relatively slim chances of favorable randomized outcomes in pivotal turns. This imo is the definition of unreliable. But to me that's even more reason to ban it. What is different between this and inherently less accurate moves is the intentional tradeoff the player makes in that instance. There is no real counterplay to this other than ridiculous sets like Wide Lens Mamoswine so the strategy is just hoping for a good matchup or good luck. It sometimes doesn't even need both.
Snow Cloak has no place either though that strategy is ameliorated a bit by being horrible.
Hi to anyone reading this, I hope you are having a good day c:
I recently got low reqs for the Kyu suspect, so I've been messing around with some other stuff trying to get a better record. In the middle of that I decided to try out ttar ho, but wasn't sure of what to use as last. Enter BRIGHTPOWDER + SAND VEIL GARCHOMP. I've talked about brightpowder being dumb, and I know sand veil was even in the last survey, but I really wanted to make the post cause I can't understand how this awful and unhealthy strat is still allowed. As stated, I just started playing from a fresh acc and thus only have 6 games with my team. Out of those 6, 4 got the spotlight:
Keep in mind that these weren't long games, so Garchomp didn't get too much chances to dodge nor to get hit. In the first two games, it dodged 1/3; in the third one it dodged 1/4; in the last one it dodged 3/3. I'll now talk about some points of contention:
a) This happens everywhere and not just in low ladder: Ofc the teams not being the best helped garchomp sweep in most of the games. However, how much would it have changed if it had been on high ladder? The Hitmontop missed mach punch, so what if Weavile had missed an ice shard? Idt this makes a real difference, as accuaracy is the same across all parts of the ladder. I would like to share a replay I got while doing my reqs run:
Ofc I am OUTH 4Aqours. Is this game the best example? Ofc not, but it goes to show that you are never out of the woods against this, as I was up 4-2 and ready to click the last moves, but only won cause Garchomp missed it's own attack at the end.
b) Is not unreliable: I mean, it probably is unreliable, but is it? As I said, I've only played 6 games with the team and 4 of those replays are featured here. I didn't even include the one where a Rotom-H missed a toxic, cause that moves can miss with or without dodging abilities/items. If you have some replays to share, please do so.
c) Is unhealthy: Idk if it's just me, but as you saw in the replays, I sacked ttar just so garchomp could have 1-3 turns on sand. I didn't even think about using the team like that, but as the game started, I thought that was my best shot everytime. Also, how is this any different that back when players were trying to win games outright by getting 3-4 flinches in a row?
-----------------
All in all, this item and this ability are just dumb. No one is using them over Rough Skin for any reason other than trying to cheese their opponent. I'll keep on playing with this team for a little bit and may post replays if I think is worth it. I look forward to reading everyone's opinions.
Have to agree with this. Personally, I find sand veil even more broken than Kyurem. At least with Kyurem you have some options readily available no matter how limited. Against sand veil, your only option is either reset the weather or wait it ou, both of which are not that readily available. Sand veil and brightpowder were mentioned a bunch of times in the surveys but dunno why nothing is being done about it
Yh, it seems the only reason these things are not banned are because they are not consistently good/used enough; and every gen if they get good/used enough they get banned, so there is not point in not banning them if they are only not banned because they are not used,and will probably get banned immediately if they do get used to any meaningful degree. I do agree with bans on those since they are about turning games into luck based rngfests, and trying to circumvent player skill
If I remember correctly, Sand Veil was one of the reasons that pushed Garchomp over the top and got it banned in DPP OU, right? This indicates back in that time, Sand Veil had a meaningful impact on Garchomp's perfomance. I'm totally on board for getting rid of the evasion-raising abilities.
If I remember correctly, Sand Veil was one of the reasons that pushed Garchomp over the top and got it banned in DPP OU, right? This indicates back in that time, Sand Veil had a meaningful impact on Garchomp's perfomance. I'm totally on board for getting rid of the evasion-raising abilities.
With perma-sand. Let's keep that in mind. Also DDP Chomp OHKOed the whole metagame bar 3-4 mons with just its STABs. It was thoroughly broke without Sand Veil.
As for Sand Veil in Gen 8:
1. Yes it's kinda dumb and probably deserves looking at once certain broken stuff is sent to Ubers or at least tested.
2. Leftovers>Bright Powder in every case. Especially with Sand Veil since Lefties gives you an extra chance to fish for a miss, and is more useful outside Sand.
3. Keep in mind it pretty much mandates weather being up. Is Sand Garchomp significantly more silly than Sun Venusaur or Hail Arctozolt? No. Not even close. Especially with Sand being in a decline in general ever since DLC 2, and debatably being the worst weather in the tier to try and build around.
I understand the argument isn't about if Sand Veil is broken, but you have to stop and ask "is it even worth trying to abuse right now?" And the answer is "not really, Smooth Rock Ttar/Hippo sucks". And as for no Smooth Rock, saying one turn of Sand Veil or having to go hard Chomp into things Chomp should not be switching into ever is worth throwing a teamslot for is laughable. The only reason you'd do it is to fish for replays of you dodging things. The set needs Sub to work because without it you are literally playing standard Chomp 5/6 times, you're throwing a teamslot away on a 1/6 chance. Like this deserves to be banned, but some of the above feels disingenuous.
Yeah, it was during OLT and Cloyster was tearing up the ladder at the time. I still personally maintain it was a fad and would have faded, but enough people were annoyed at it and was genuinely working at the time, (plus Beat Up Weavile became a thing) so it got banned.
SS Sand Veil is in a very different place to any previous meta, so looking at past metas only really tells us: 1. Perma weather is dumb and 2. Scale Shot is a big upgrade. Two things we already knew.
So a lot of people were confused when Mew was on the recent survey, and I was definitely one of them. Thought it would be cool to make a post about Demon Mew for those unaware of its current presence.
Demon Mew is a very scary mon rn, and for good reason. In my opinion, it’s one of the best wincons in the entire tier, and sometimes it just wins in team preview. Once it gets the ball rolling, it can be almost impossible to stop. Now for those unaware, Demon Mew is this set:
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Taunt/Body Press
- Cosmic Power
- Roost
with only one cosmic power, Mew can set up on most common offensive mons, but with two cosmic powers it can set up on mons like specs pult bar a crit. Once it gets to max defenses, it’s basically impossible to stop. Stored power destroys every mon bar darks and steels, which are taken care of by Body press. Taunt is another option and it lets you avoid toxics and other status moves that might cut your sweep short. I haven’t experimented with this, but I think itemless could be a cool option as well.
The main thing that makes Demon Mew so strong is just how easy it can set up. Mews decent speed tier and natural bulk even without investmentand taunt let it set up on common defensive mons like Lando Tran Ferro and even some offensive ones like Sub roost Kyu Lele and Koko. In the games I’ve used Mew here are some of the mons that can put a stop to it:
Trick users: Probably the most reliable way to stop Mew. A well placed trick can pretty much put mew out for the rest of the game.
Fast Taunt Users: These mons can stop mew from setting up, although I’m p sure Torn does not run taunt much anymore.
One of the only mons with the brute strength to actually break mew with cosmic powers. If it switches in on Mew immediately it can beat it 1v1 with Banded DIB.
This mon can poison it with sludge bomb, which puts quite a bit of pressure on it. Doesn’t mean Mew loses its more of a nuisance.
Unaware Users: Clef is p much the relevant one here. Clef can actually set up on Mew.
(pretend I Put Volcarona here): This mon can set up alongside Mew and force a stalemate if it has roost. One crit and Volc breaks free. Also flamethrower burns are nice as well.
And that’s it! That’s mostly everything. Everything else loses the 1v1. Considering the majority of those mons are running certain sets, it’s safe to say that the common team is not prepared for Demon Mew. I think we should give Mew some more time, maybe some interesting sets like Dragon Tail chomp will pop up in response.
it's times like these that i wish there was a :smiling_imp: reaction on smogon
Anyway yes I would support Sand Veil/Snow Cloak being smitten, they're abilities--an element that tiering policy can feasibly take action against--that take control away from the players and can lead to game-ending results, regardless of whether or not they are more or less consistent than they used to be. I feel like a lot of the talking points on the pro-ban side have been repeated and finely picked apart as is, so I won't repeat those, but yeah +1
So a lot of people were confused when Mew was on the recent survey, and I was definitely one of them. Thought it would be cool to make a post about Demon Mew for those unaware of its current presence. View attachment 389120
Demon Mew is a very scary mon rn, and for good reason. In my opinion, it’s one of the best wincons in the entire tier, and sometimes it just wins in team preview. Once it gets the ball rolling, it can be almost impossible to stop. Now for those unaware, Demon Mew is this set:
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Taunt/Body Press
- Cosmic Power
- Roost
with only one cosmic power, Mew can set up on most common offensive mons, but with two cosmic powers it can set up on mons like specs pult bar a crit. Once it gets to max defenses, it’s basically impossible to stop. Stored power destroys every mon bar darks and steels, which are taken care of by Body press. Taunt is another option and it lets you avoid toxics and other status moves that might cut your sweep short. I haven’t experimented with this, but I think itemless could be a cool option as well.
The main thing that makes Demon Mew so strong is just how easy it can set up. Mews decent speed tier and natural bulk even without investmentand taunt let it set up on common defensive mons like Lando Tran Ferro and even some offensive ones like Sub roost Kyu Lele and Koko. In the games I’ve used Mew here are some of the mons that can put a stop to it:
View attachment 389138 One of the only mons with the brute strength to actually break mew with cosmic powers. If it switches in on Mew immediately it can beat it 1v1 with Banded DIB.
View attachment 389137 This mon can poison it with sludge bomb, which puts quite a bit of pressure on it. Doesn’t mean Mew loses its more of a nuisance.
(pretend I Put Volcarona here): This mon can set up alongside Mew and force a stalemate if it has roost. One crit and Volc breaks free. Also flamethrower burns are nice as well.
And that’s it! That’s mostly everything. Everything else loses the 1v1. Considering the majority of those mons are running certain sets, it’s safe to say that the common team is not prepared for Demon Mew. I think we should give Mew some more time, maybe some interesting sets like Dragon Tail chomp will pop up in response.
I'm really happy people are talking about demon mew here, as its a great wincon IMO(ok, maybe happy isnt the word, my favorite team gets absolutely 6-0d by taunt variants of it, so an intense hatred is probably the better descriptor).
IMO, the thing that should be stated here is just how massive the difference between its two slashed moves is, as without body press this mew cannot touch dark types, which can put a serious damper on its sweeping capabilities, but taunt enables it to absolutely shut down stall teams and defensive cores in general. It could even be said that the set suffers a bit from 4MSS, as both variants have very pronounced strengths and weaknesses, and your particular set should be tailored to what you are running into the most on the ladder.
Another thing worth mentioning is using weakness poicy instead of leftovers. While this can be a bit more all in, it enables you to get going much faster than leftovers if used well. This variant of the set is probably also better suited to screens HO.
Also on the topic of things that are good on screens HO, I have been trying out this set while trying to get reqs(i kinda gave up midway through, since even though the games were going well,I was just getting too stressed and it wasn't fun, guess suspect ladders are just not my thing), and learn a bit about HO along the way since its a style I dont play usually:
There has been some more experimentation on dd pult lately, but most of it has been with sub from what I've seen. This set is a really good alternative take on the dd pult archetype. After a dragon dance, it's able to demolish basically all of the offensive metagame, and if you get both a dd and a weakness policy, there is a good chance you will get the sweep once the opposing team is weakened a bit. Flamethrower is really nice here as it benefits from weakness policy making it a decently strong tool for picking off defensive steels like ferro,melmetal and scizor after a bit of chip. The biggest threat is unaware clef, so you should definitely take a partner that can get rid of it. I would definitely advise people to try this beast out
A lot of discussion on sand veil has been happening lately and while I do agree that it's a very inconsistent strategy that's very hard to pull off, why do we want this in the tier in the first place? It adds nothing to the game besides RNG. There's no benefit it brings to any mon. The unique thing about it giving you a sandstorm immunity doesn't even apply anymore with all the veil mons we have being sandstorm immune already. Its literally only purpose is cheesing your opponent. Why do we want this to remain in the tier?
So a lot of people were confused when Mew was on the recent survey, and I was definitely one of them. Thought it would be cool to make a post about Demon Mew for those unaware of its current presence. View attachment 389120
Demon Mew is a very scary mon rn, and for good reason. In my opinion, it’s one of the best wincons in the entire tier, and sometimes it just wins in team preview. Once it gets the ball rolling, it can be almost impossible to stop. Now for those unaware, Demon Mew is this set:
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Taunt/Body Press
- Cosmic Power
- Roost
with only one cosmic power, Mew can set up on most common offensive mons, but with two cosmic powers it can set up on mons like specs pult bar a crit. Once it gets to max defenses, it’s basically impossible to stop. Stored power destroys every mon bar darks and steels, which are taken care of by Body press. Taunt is another option and it lets you avoid toxics and other status moves that might cut your sweep short. I haven’t experimented with this, but I think itemless could be a cool option as well.
The main thing that makes Demon Mew so strong is just how easy it can set up. Mews decent speed tier and natural bulk even without investmentand taunt let it set up on common defensive mons like Lando Tran Ferro and even some offensive ones like Sub roost Kyu Lele and Koko. In the games I’ve used Mew here are some of the mons that can put a stop to it:
View attachment 389138 One of the only mons with the brute strength to actually break mew with cosmic powers. If it switches in on Mew immediately it can beat it 1v1 with Banded DIB.
View attachment 389137 This mon can poison it with sludge bomb, which puts quite a bit of pressure on it. Doesn’t mean Mew loses its more of a nuisance.
(pretend I Put Volcarona here): This mon can set up alongside Mew and force a stalemate if it has roost. One crit and Volc breaks free. Also flamethrower burns are nice as well.
And that’s it! That’s mostly everything. Everything else loses the 1v1. Considering the majority of those mons are running certain sets, it’s safe to say that the common team is not prepared for Demon Mew. I think we should give Mew some more time, maybe some interesting sets like Dragon Tail chomp will pop up in response.
While I appreaciate this post, the reality is that it can be misleading in more ways than one. I've been talking about this in the OU room non-stop for the last couple of months, and a lot of countermeasures and benefits from this set have come up. At least I got Kyurem reqs with TSpikes + Cosmic Mew (as I will refer to it) and haven't lost a game against it since late october. I would like to share and clear some misconceptions, counterplay and benefits of this set. Reminder that this is my perspective as a ladder player, not a tour one, which is why I see this mon as a threat and not only a gimmick. One final thing, when against breakers, I'll consider that mew is at full and in front of a mon it can get a free cosmic power against, like Corvi.
a) The set itself
This is a very small section but is imperative to mention that Cosmic/Demon Mew is the following set
Mew @ Leftovers/Weakness Policy
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Taunt
- Cosmic Power
- Roost
While the body press idea is nice and all, it doesn't let it set up in front of major mons such as Pex, Slowbro, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Corviknight, just to name a few. Body Press is not bad though, and a lot of sets exist for it (specially on HO). Such sets include other options such as Rest, Agility, Calm Mind, Colbur Berry, Kasib Berry, Chesto Berry, 252 SpDef instead of 252 Speed, and so on. This sets were a thing for a while, but they died up cause 1) They usually needed screens support or were easily overwhelmed, 2) Latitwins have similar and much more dangerous sets.
In conclusion, when talking about Cosmic Mew, you are talking about taunt, there's no other way. One final thing is that the item is usually Leftis or WP, but you can see a bit more experimentation on ladder; kasib and colbur berry are a thing, and I personally tried Psychic seed for a while, but Leftis/WP are def the most consistent options.
b) Most common things non believers point to
Melly usually has to do a lot during a match, so you probably got to know it's set at some point. That is, you know if it might have toxic/twave or if it doesn't. Even more, you probably know if it's banded or not. If it's not banded, you just cosmic power as it switches in, and then you taunt. If it's banded you go for cosmic power as it switches again, and cosmic power again as he attacks the first time. Now you just stall out the double iron bashes if you are leftis: 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%). When paired up with dd Kyurem, if mew were to die to a crit, it probably stalled out enough DIB to were Kyurem doesn't have to worry about Melmetal almost at all.
Not only this, but sludge bomb poison in general. That's a lie. If anything, you appreciate not having to taunt against every single thing that might have random toxic. Oh, I got weak poisoned by Glowking? Great, now I don't have to worry about Toxic Magnezone and I can just Cosmic Power in front of it. It might put more pressure into mew yes, but if that's the first mon you bring against it, then that says a lot about what mew is about to do to your team.
Trick: I find this argument weird. Mew will usually stay out of the game til the trick mon has either already used trick, or being put down. That doesn't mew is dead weight against this things. It can for instance come in mid game and threaten something out, then switch out as the trick mon comes in.
Dark types make it useless: Just like against the trick mons, mew isn't useless against teams with these. Even more so, why act as if Mandibuzz doesn't get status half the games it's in, or that Bisharp doesn't usually sacrifice itself for a 80% on Corvi, Ferro. I feel like people only have this weird idea that Cosmic Mew is awful against Darks cause they've only seen Cosmic Mew on HO. Finally just a remainder that while cosmic mew might be the thing talked about and that is really good, it might still be random Close Combat and destroy Weavile/Bisharp on the switch.
c) Shuts it down completely even after two boosts, wasn't listed above, and isn't awful
Specs Taunt Clear Smog If shadow sneak. Other variants can but have to be more careful SpDef Leftis, other variants can do it too or at least sit on it
d) Some things that trade or beat it just by nature
Stall: Don't forget mew only has 16 Cosmic Powers, so Blissey, regen cores, pressure, shedinja failry well.
Moonblast: I didn't mention Quagsire above cause it loses by itself. And I didn't mention Clef cause I saved it for this part. Moonblast is just a bitch. It doesn't matter if you are at +6 Spdef and +6 Def, if you are at -1 SpAtk, then Stored Power is weak af. So yes, Clef tends to beat this set if it comes in quickly (doesn't have to be right away) and even Lele trades with it sometimes.
CB Urshifu: Comes in as mew goes for the FIRST cp. Has to be that turn, unless it dies to +2 Def, +2SpDef + Rocks. It sacrifices itself to leave Mew at 70-80. (Imagine switching a fighting type hard into a psychic type lol).
Specs Pult: It can actually lose to Mew if it got 2 boosts already, cause the roll is 40-48. In practice SpDef drops just happen all the time, so don't think too much about it.
SD Garchomp: Even Leftis Chomp gets to SD the first time and just clicks eq non-stop. Ofc this is if Chomp came in right away.
Bug Buzz Volcarona: Ofc it has Bug Buzz is probably offensive. I didn't mention it in the last part cause it technicaly can lose against +2 Cosmic Mew if it gets some 50-50 wrongs. In practice however, this thing always beats mew. 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Mew: 152-180 (37.6 - 44.5%)
Crits: My personal favorite. I go cb kartana and spam leaf blade. Even at +2, mew takes 35-41 from CB Leaf Blade and is risking a crit everytime.
They get to taunt and that's it. If they come in right away then sure. But at +2, they are just taking 40-50 from each stored power. That's even worse for zeraora that doesn't ahve roost.
This one is funny. Specs Zone can run either toxic/steel beam. Since toxic is no super uncommon, mew actually tends to taunt zone. So if Steel beam, you can just sacrifice zone and do a lot and I mean a lot. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Steel Beam vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Mew: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah, it was during OLT and Cloyster was tearing up the ladder at the time. I still personally maintain it was a fad and would have faded, but enough people were annoyed at it and was genuinely working at the time, (plus Beat Up Weavile became a thing) so it got banned.
Suspecting multiple things at once never ends well, and enough support was given to a Kyurem suspect that it was the highest priority.
SS Sand Veil is in a very different place to any previous meta, so looking at past metas only really tells us: 1. Perma weather is dumb and 2. Scale Shot is a big upgrade. Two things we already knew.
It wouldn't be suspected (?) I think if it was deemed uncompetitive it would just be quick banned. I don't understand your last argument. If something is being banned because it is uncompetitive that aspect certainly does not change based on the pokemon surrounding it. If banking off of misses is uncompetitive it doesn't matter how good or bad chomp happens to be as an abuser. This is why kings rock arguments using cloyster and kind of weavile were bad. If you are making the case it is uncompetitive that is one thing. Many wanted it banned because they thought it was too powerful on cloyster. I am sympathetic to people believing that it was uncompetitive, but if this is true it is strange that other abilities or items which function very similarly are still allowed (almost like the ban wasn't about it being uncompetitive, but I digress).
I don't understand your last argument. If something is being banned because it is uncompetitive that aspect certainly does not change based on the pokemon surrounding it. If banking off of misses is uncompetitive it doesn't matter how good or bad chomp happens to be as an abuser.
It matters a lot actually. Garchomp has access to Swords Dance and two powerful STABs, one of which boosts it further, so it getting a free turn off Sand Veil is huge, and sometimes game-deciding on the spot. Palossand getting a free turn off it, on the other hand, is not likely to change the outcome of the game. That extra Shore Up/Stealth Rock/whatever really doesn't matter in the long run. The reason Sand Veil is being targeted instead of Chomp is mostly down to the fact Chomp is not broken, and without Sand Veil it isn't uncompetitive either.
This is why kings rock arguments using cloyster and kind of weavile were bad. If you are making the case it is uncompetitive that is one thing. Many wanted it banned because they thought it was too powerful on cloyster.
I am sympathetic to people believing that it was uncompetitive, but if this is true it is strange that other abilities or items which function very similarly are still allowed (almost like the ban wasn't about it being uncompetitive, but I digress).
I assume you mean Serene Grace+Iron Head type-hax. The difference is there you can clearly see it on Team Preview, and plan around it, plus the abusers are mostly trash anyway.
Basically what I wanted to get across is the following:
The principle of something being uncompetitive is it creates an environment where the better player cannot consistently beat a demonstrably worse player. I put "consistently" in my head at around 95%. There always will be hax in the game (see: tiering policy).
Therefore, if a "hax" element of some kind does not actually affect the result of a game most of the time, it cannot be uncompetitive. Yes, you can lose to three Quick Claw activations in a row, but you're more likely to lose to getting frozen twice, getting full paraed by Thunder, Hurricane BS, etc. If a "hax" element is so otherwise bad that it is useless when it doesn't work, and usually needs unfavourable odds to actually change the result of a game, the better player will prevail far more often than not. Using unviable mons/moves just to pray for luck to be on your side is a terrible strategy, and your opponent is far less likely to complain how unfair it is your Glaceon dodged once than they are to just collect the free win you've just donated them.
Obviously, the problem with Sand Veil (and previously King's Rock) is that the abuser is viable regardless of it, and hence you aren't just praying for luck to bail you out, so you have a baseline win % that Sand Veil adds to, rather than it being your only way of winning.
Still violates the principle of not changing the tier during a suspect.
It matters a lot actually. Garchomp has access to Swords Dance and two powerful STABs, one of which boosts it further, so it getting a free turn off Sand Veil is huge, and sometimes game-deciding on the spot. Palossand getting a free turn off it, on the other hand, is not likely to change the outcome of the game. That extra Shore Up/Stealth Rock/whatever really doesn't matter in the long run. The reason Sand Veil is being targeted instead of Chomp is mostly down to the fact Chomp is not broken, and without Sand Veil it isn't uncompetitive either.
If this was true it would be Cloyster getting banned instead of King's Rock, because Cloyster would be broken.
I assume you mean Serene Grace+Iron Head type-hax. The difference is there you can clearly see it on Team Preview, and plan around it, plus the abusers are mostly trash anyway.
Basically what I wanted to get across is the following:
The principle of something being uncompetitive is it creates an environment where the better player cannot consistently beat a demonstrably worse player. I put "consistently" in my head at around 95%. There always will be hax in the game (see: tiering policy).
Therefore, if a "hax" element of some kind does not actually affect the result of a game most of the time, it cannot be uncompetitive. Yes, you can lose to three Quick Claw activations in a row, but you're more likely to lose to getting frozen twice, getting full paraed by Thunder, Hurricane BS, etc. If a "hax" element is so otherwise bad that it is useless when it doesn't work, and usually needs unfavourable odds to actually change the result of a game, the better player will prevail far more often than not. Using unviable mons/moves just to pray for luck to be on your side is a terrible strategy, and your opponent is far less likely to complain how unfair it is your Glaceon dodged once than they are to just collect the free win you've just donated them.
Obviously, the problem with Sand Veil (and previously King's Rock) is that the abuser is viable regardless of it, and hence you aren't just praying for luck to bail you out, so you have a baseline win % that Sand Veil adds to, rather than it being your only way of winning.
1. Kings rock quick ban. Smart people like Finch made the argument that kings rock is uncompetitive because you are deliberately making the exchange of consistent power for hax potential. A large majority of the player base cited cloyster needing only one or two flinches to win. Finch's argument identifies kings rock as the problematic feature while citing cloyster's ability to only need one or two flinches is identifying cloyster as the problematic element, and saying other Pokemon using kings rock have a place in the game. If you make this second argument you aren't wanting kings rock banned you want cloyster banned. I highly doubt cincinno would have torn up the meta game with kings rock, but that isn't the point of banning it. If the issue was specifically cloyster for you, you wanted cloyster banned.
2. The player base uses silly rationalities sometimes. Some Pokemon are "owed" OU status to people so they use mental gymnastics to ban the overpowered aspects instead of the Pokemon. Some people wanted to suspect Regen+tele+fsight when futureport slowtwins were the flavor of the week... The kings rock ban was a quick ban made by the council, so we don't know what logic they had behind it other than the ones that were vocal, and the ones that were said that making the exchange of power for hax is uncompetitive, so we are banning that. Not because cloyster himself is too good of an abuser, that is making a pro-cloyster ban argument which is fundamentally different.
3. Your part about chomp identifies chomp as the problematic feature rather than sand veil. Of course chomp can use the turns better than pallosand but if your argument is that, you're arguing for a chomp ban, you're saying that chomp specifically is the problematic feature because giving him a free turn in particular is bad, not that crossing your fingers for free turns in a competitive game is bad. The reason people hate sand veil is because you are once again making the deliberate decision to go for hax instead of consistent utility. I doubt I would be less mad if a pallosand dodged my kartana and OHKOed back with specs shadow ball. Sure I didn't technically lose on the spot but certainly puts me in a way worse spot because my opponent's strategy was scratching off PowerBall cards. Here is the proper way to argue for an ability ban without tying it to a Pokemon: I don't believe evasion boosting has a place in a competitive environment, where ideally the better player usually beats the worse player. If I said I want sand veil to be banned because chomp can swords dance with the free turn and sweep, then I am actually arguing that chomp is the problematic feature and that other sand veil mons have a place in the game.
While I appreaciate this post, the reality is that it can be misleading in more ways than one. I've been talking about this in the OU room non-stop for the last couple of months, and a lot of countermeasures and benefits from this set have come up. At least I got Kyurem reqs with TSpikes + Cosmic Mew (as I will refer to it) and haven't lost a game against it since late october. I would like to share and clear some misconceptions, counterplay and benefits of this set. Reminder that this is my perspective as a ladder player, not a tour one, which is why I see this mon as a threat and not only a gimmick. One final thing, when against breakers, I'll consider that mew is at full and in front of a mon it can get a free cosmic power against, like Corvi.
a) The set itself
This is a very small section but is imperative to mention that Cosmic/Demon Mew is the following set
Mew @ Leftovers/Weakness Policy
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Taunt
- Cosmic Power
- Roost
While the body press idea is nice and all, it doesn't let it set up in front of major mons such as Pex, Slowbro, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Corviknight, just to name a few. Body Press is not bad though, and a lot of sets exist for it (specially on HO). Such sets include other options such as Rest, Agility, Calm Mind, Colbur Berry, Kasib Berry, Chesto Berry, 252 SpDef instead of 252 Speed, and so on. This sets were a thing for a while, but they died up cause 1) They usually needed screens support or were easily overwhelmed, 2) Latitwins have similar and much more dangerous sets.
In conclusion, when talking about Cosmic Mew, you are talking about taunt, there's no other way. One final thing is that the item is usually Leftis or WP, but you can see a bit more experimentation on ladder; kasib and colbur berry are a thing, and I personally tried Psychic seed for a while, but Leftis/WP are def the most consistent options.
b) Most common things non believers point to
Melly usually has to do a lot during a match, so you probably got to know it's set at some point. That is, you know if it might have toxic/twave or if it doesn't. Even more, you probably know if it's banded or not. If it's not banded, you just cosmic power as it switches in, and then you taunt. If it's banded you go for cosmic power as it switches again, and cosmic power again as he attacks the first time. Now you just stall out the double iron bashes if you are leftis: 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%). When paired up with dd Kyurem, if mew were to die to a crit, it probably stalled out enough DIB to were Kyurem doesn't have to worry about Melmetal almost at all.
Not only this, but sludge bomb poison in general. That's a lie. If anything, you appreciate not having to taunt against every single thing that might have random toxic. Oh, I got weak poisoned by Glowking? Great, now I don't have to worry about Toxic Magnezone and I can just Cosmic Power in front of it. It might put more pressure into mew yes, but if that's the first mon you bring against it, then that says a lot about what mew is about to do to your team.
Trick: I find this argument weird. Mew will usually stay out of the game til the trick mon has either already used trick, or being put down. That doesn't mew is dead weight against this things. It can for instance come in mid game and threaten something out, then switch out as the trick mon comes in.
Dark types make it useless: Just like against the trick mons, mew isn't useless against teams with these. Even more so, why act as if Mandibuzz doesn't get status half the games it's in, or that Bisharp doesn't usually sacrifice itself for a 80% on Corvi, Ferro. I feel like people only have this weird idea that Cosmic Mew is awful against Darks cause they've only seen Cosmic Mew on HO. Finally just a remainder that while cosmic mew might be the thing talked about and that is really good, it might still be random Close Combat and destroy Weavile/Bisharp on the switch.
c) Shuts it down completely even after two boosts, wasn't listed above, and isn't awful
Specs Taunt Clear Smog If shadow sneak. Other variants can but have to be more careful SpDef Leftis, other variants can do it too or at least sit on it
d) Some things that trade or beat it just by nature
Stall: Don't forget mew only has 16 Cosmic Powers, so Blissey, regen cores, pressure, shedinja failry well.
Moonblast: I didn't mention Quagsire above cause it loses by itself. And I didn't mention Clef cause I saved it for this part. Moonblast is just a bitch. It doesn't matter if you are at +6 Spdef and +6 Def, if you are at -1 SpAtk, then Stored Power is weak af. So yes, Clef tends to beat this set if it comes in quickly (doesn't have to be right away) and even Lele trades with it sometimes.
CB Urshifu: Comes in as mew goes for the FIRST cp. Has to be that turn, unless it dies to +2 Def, +2SpDef + Rocks. It sacrifices itself to leave Mew at 70-80. (Imagine switching a fighting type hard into a psychic type lol).
Specs Pult: It can actually lose to Mew if it got 2 boosts already, cause the roll is 40-48. In practice SpDef drops just happen all the time, so don't think too much about it.
SD Garchomp: Even Leftis Chomp gets to SD the first time and just clicks eq non-stop. Ofc this is if Chomp came in right away.
Bug Buzz Volcarona: Ofc it has Bug Buzz is probably offensive. I didn't mention it in the last part cause it technicaly can lose against +2 Cosmic Mew if it gets some 50-50 wrongs. In practice however, this thing always beats mew. 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Mew: 152-180 (37.6 - 44.5%)
Crits: My personal favorite. I go cb kartana and spam leaf blade. Even at +2, mew takes 35-41 from CB Leaf Blade and is risking a crit everytime.
They get to taunt and that's it. If they come in right away then sure. But at +2, they are just taking 40-50 from each stored power. That's even worse for zeraora that doesn't ahve roost.
This one is funny. Specs Zone can run either toxic/steel beam. Since toxic is no super uncommon, mew actually tends to taunt zone. So if Steel beam, you can just sacrifice zone and do a lot and I mean a lot. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Steel Beam vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Mew: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I like Mew a lot as a mon (it’s so fucking cute) but it’s always been broken to me. I can’t stand fighting Mew because it can literally run anything. I’m a huge Dark type user mostly because Future Sight is annoying. With Mew, you really can’t hard switch Dark types in. I’ve lost Bisharp to CC, Crawdaunt to Thunderbolt, Weavile to Fire Blast. I’ve even faced Mew users in rematches that completely change up sets. You just never know man…
I like Mew a lot as a mon (it’s so fucking cute) but it’s always been broken to me. I can’t stand fighting Mew because it can literally run anything. I’m a huge Dark type user mostly because Future Sight is annoying. With Mew, you really can’t hard switch Dark types in. I’ve lost Bisharp to CC, Crawdaunt to Thunderbolt, Weavile to Fire Blast. I’ve even faced Mew users in rematches that completely change up sets. You just never know man…
Yup. Mew is a cheat code. It’s gameshark. It can run whatever you’d like it to. Do you boo boo. What’s the counterplay the first turn it hits the field?
This is a big blow to hail teams but a W for balance and offense, which really disliked switching into Kyurem. Also great news for Gastrodon, Fini, and other Freeze-Dry targets. I won't be using spdef Ferrothorn on every team anymore but I still plan to use it frequently since Spikes is still great.
Melly usually has to do a lot during a match, so you probably got to know it's set at some point. That is, you know if it might have toxic/twave or if it doesn't. Even more, you probably know if it's banded or not. If it's not banded, you just cosmic power as it switches in, and then you taunt. If it's banded you go for cosmic power as it switches again, and cosmic power again as he attacks the first time. Now you just stall out the double iron bashes if you are leftis: 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%). When paired up with dd Kyurem, if mew were to die to a crit, it probably stalled out enough DIB to were Kyurem doesn't have to worry about Melmetal almost at all.
Not only this, but sludge bomb poison in general. That's a lie. If anything, you appreciate not having to taunt against every single thing that might have random toxic. Oh, I got weak poisoned by Glowking? Great, now I don't have to worry about Toxic Magnezone and I can just Cosmic Power in front of it. It might put more pressure into mew yes, but if that's the first mon you bring against it, then that says a lot about what mew is about to do to your team.
Specs
Taunt
Clear Smog
If shadow sneak. Other variants can but have to be more careful
SpDef Leftis, other variants can do it too or at least sit on it
They get to taunt and that's it. If they come in right away then sure. But at +2, they are just taking 40-50 from each stored power. That's even worse for zeraora that doesn't ahve roost.
This one is funny. Specs Zone can run either toxic/steel beam. Since toxic is no super uncommon, mew actually tends to taunt zone. So if Steel beam, you can just sacrifice zone and do a lot and I mean a lot. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Steel Beam vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Mew: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 
