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Survivor (Big) Survivor: Starhome
- Thread starter apricity
- Start date
u also told me that if i was dead at f5 i would likely be out, which i think shows to my perception at that point that i was a pretty crazy threat! clouds also thought this was the case as well. you can claim you don't agree, but you discussed with me earlier in the game that you were worried that "i wasnt honestly trying to win i was trying to get all my allies to f4" in addition, u were aware that u might've not received credit in some instances - this likely changed where you felt that you wanted me to stay but i don't entirely think that means that this FTC is best for you especially when everyone thought you were making it anyway
also i overinflated his threat level but i never rly thought anyone's an autowin because that's what ftc is for right - i just wanted zach over him and believed it was best for both of our games w/ immunity in mind and just pushed him with that pitch cuz i thought it made sense, but i do think that u and ryo have been basically arguing the same points this ftc except for a difference in 10 and one person claiming they mind controlled/was resistant to the mind control of the other and did it entirely themselves so i think you've been able to show that you guys have been more involved in this game together but have similar games at the end of the day. this is an issue with credit if you were uniquely able to show up in a more independent fashion - you're just kind of bound to this ftc pact u made and have to own up to it and have to downplay my efforts to show that you didn't make a mistake in the eyes of the jury.
Ryo can say what he wanted but he had multiple people willing to take him and I was likely dead at 5, so other people including him would've gotten me out so I think that point in general is kind of troll
but I believe you when you say you can win, like that’s why we’re all here! I especially think you had a better chance of winning if I weren't here. I think there is valuable frustration in that u felt that this FTC might not open up so well and that's why you're trying to discredit my positioning when my fate wasn't entirely reliant on you at all - i had to convince many others that they had to get me to survive. I just think you chose not to distinguish that, which I think makes this entire thread harder for you
-can u win while distinguishing urself from tommy, cuz it feels like bc you guys were closer youd much rather someone with a more similar game to you which makes sense along with pretending my game suddenly doesnt exist to argue ur case at ftc
-according to tommy he had to convince you to get off me at 8, according to me i think you chose to take out psy who i dont think was viewed as a larger threat at that point and seemed like a bad play for you because i'm here when that was never the goal so u should probably clarify that, in addition me going out at 8 lets you dictate your FTC more fluently because I'm not an immunity threat at this point, zach is likely voting with you and that might come with psy whereas i remain a thorn in your endgame but you still were convinced to keep me anyway because you felt the order mattered, regardless of whether or not that you wanted me to make it to the end
-if ur argument is im going to be voted out at 5 anyway what is the fear that comes with why i'm getting votes matter? i think ive had a pretty cool game but to you i would still be a threat and my existence disrupted your intended FTC regardless, this is incongruent with the fact that tbz wanted you/tommy at the end and tommy thought he could beat you (whereas currently both of you are currently arguing very similar games and that mine was trash despite people wanting to go to the end with you both - i had to play off my own recognition to make it here because it's not entirely true that my life was solely in the hands of you two and ive been over this
)-my social w tommy was in bigvivor though - it's hard to pretend like this wasn't leaned on but i had legitimate game reasons for allying him (and not other friends ofc) but this was conversely true from his pov, and various buzzwords like eimm and s16 were thrown out anyway idgi i already explained this
Yeah everyone but me needed you out, especially ryo. I think if ryo had voted you out his ftc would have went very differently. Not only would you be gone, but he would have an argument of how he made plays/didn't go along with the flow, as I wanted.
Others being gone doesn't mean I need you gone! I actually think ryos game would've been best if he voted me out, the same way I think your game would've been best if you voted me out. My game ended up being the composite of your game + ryos game + some individual play. You may have received votes to try get booted but in my eyes I was both of your shields and the amount of discrediting of both your arguments I have been able to do says a lot. Regardless of if you think you had more say in certain points or not, neither of you had a moment in the game where you can say "this was just me", both of you have to fall back on any play you made as something with tommy. From my perspective at f5, I should've been the boot for everyone, but failing that ryo was the best boot for you and vice versa.
Failing getting rid of me, who had been your shield for merge, the second best route would be to boot each other, which was the only other way to get an individual play prior to ftc for either of you. I think you both knew this, which is why you both pushed each other so hard.
So yes, you were at risk of going, because you were the only way people could get an individual play and pad their resume without booting me. But this wasn't a problem for me, because I was the person both you and ryo had to beat to not have your entire final speech contested.
The most shcoking thing to me here is how much ryo is getting beat on and eli is not. I really think this is because of people bias towards eli being a good player. You tease and trash on ryo for making no plays and getting rid of none of his end game threats. But eli literally didn't do anything either, he has even confessed to being forced to boot clouds, his priority ally at f7, sooner than he wanted because he had no control on the game. At least ryo had the positioning to do what he wanted, even if you call his game awareness bad.
Eli had game awareness and needed to boot me to have this as his claim to win. Ryo had better positioning than eli and needed this to claim to win. I had both game awareness and good position, along with the most proactive play in the game. I have what both of them have and more, I was the shield here and in any reasonable place we are truly voting who played the best game, not who has most pregame friends or biggest oog rep, I believe I played this best on this ftc convincingly.
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Correct me if I’m wrong but idt Eli was ever insinuating this
i read the logs and i actually did feel bad because you were my ally and i did pretty much undermine you LOL what, i dont think this was me like convincing u out of game
i think this is super overblown because take a look at what happens after f12
-loyalists realize im not hearing about people floating vooper and rope me in, because ive established myself as a decent number for them
-we plan on doing psy at 11 (and with a few hours to deadline i admit nothing happens that would be conclusive to determine the vote)
-i talk with separatists about what i hear w loyalists and getting iced out (but i admittedly received mixed answers such as "vooper was floated" and "separatists never talked about a vote" and "certain people thought you were flipping) , i apologize to intended parties such as ryo/u/rest of seps etc and you guys mostly open up and willingly work or clear up things with me
-i open up to psy, WHO I LITERALLY TRIED TO VOTE LAST TIME BTW, and we convene together and bring up a zoa vote, you and I also talk about a zoa vote and i know for a fact tbz/zach/clouds would so this is not like, me being your goat but the fact that this was all possible is due to that people were still wanting to vote with me throughout the game, we just collectively had a similar agenda and it wasnt that i was under your wing at that vote either
-in fact i end up organizing this vote with the 5 people involved with airproof leaks until the last minute, clouds and i set ourselves up on opposite sides so we can see if shit is going down, tbz/zach/me/psy/you are all willing to vote zoa and everyone begins to assume it's a 5-5, and clouds would flip on the revote - this all happened
-despite that, even when shit leaked by zach, and the other 5 thought he was catching votes, i made them believe that i was voting with them so that regard they wouldn't idol - this was all to make sure that vote happened, contrary to what you're saying everyone believed i was with them at the end which is kind of a different story than what you're trying to say
im similar in Tommy in the regard that we were both allied and both think you are less deserving than me or him.-can u win while distinguishing urself from tommy, cuz it feels like bc you guys were closer youd much rather someone with a more similar game to you which makes sense along with pretending my game suddenly doesnt exist to argue ur case at ftc
-according to tommy he had to convince you to get off me at 8, according to me i think you chose to take out psy who i dont think was viewed as a larger threat at that point and seemed like a bad play for you because i'm here when that was never the goal so u should probably clarify that, in addition me going out at 8 lets you dictate your FTC more fluently because I'm not an immunity threat at this point, zach is likely voting with you and that might come with psy whereas i remain a thorn in your endgame but you still were convinced to keep me anyway because you felt the order mattered, regardless of whether or not that you wanted me to make it to the end
-if ur argument is im going to be voted out at 5 anyway what is the fear that comes with why i'm getting votes matter? i think ive had a pretty cool game but to you i would still be a threat and my existence disrupted your intended FTC regardless, this is incongruent with the fact that tbz wanted you/tommy at the end and tommy thought he could beat you (whereas currently both of you are currently arguing very similar games and that mine was trash despite people wanting to go to the end with you both - i had to play off my own recognition to make it here because it's not entirely true that my life was solely in the hands of you two and ive been over this
-my social w tommy was in bigvivor though - it's hard to pretend like this wasn't leaned on but i had legitimate game reasons for allying him (and not other friends ofc) but this was conversely true from his pov, and various buzzwords like eimm and s16 were thrown out anyway idgi i already explained this
The only “same points I’ve had as Tommy” have been directed towards you not playing as well as you think you did. We have similar points about YOUR game. As for our own, Tommy and I have had points of contention but have had completely different reasonings for everything we say and I still stand by my original long FTC statement, furthermore we had different approaches to the game.
You and Tommy seem to be the ones arguing and using the same reasoning against each other, being whether it be the “flip power” or “holding the information” which I already elaborated about on my own and im certainly not facing the adversity on the same points that you are.
You’re minimizing Tommy and I’s similar criticisms on your game as “Tommy and Ryo have the same everything!!!” Which just isn’t true at all if you’ve read anything about our own games and trust we’re not trying to give the game to each other lmao.
Which leads me into the next point which backs this up-> I’ve elaborated so much on f8, the first day of FTC for me was elaboration on f8, and I still think Psy played a better game than you (no offense, I hold Psy in a very high regard gamewise). Psy going out at f8 is what cleared a path for me to guarantee FTC. Sure you were someone I wanted to vote out but I knew despite it being mutual between us(don’t try to claim it isn’t) that I’d get another chance and that you at the wouldn’t be able to vote me out(it was impossible after f8).
Fortunately for you, you weren’t the ideal target to me at f6 either which I already also elaborated a lot on. Ofc you’re gonna inherently disagree with me keeping you because if you say it was the right play then you auto lose FTC. So we’d just walk in circles there.
Idt theres that much more to say between us atm
Eli’s response to me it felt that he was trying to discredit my voice in separatist and diminish the feat of maintaining control of an 8 person alliance chat through/with an inner core during 2 merge cycles.
I brought you up to show that even if Eli was right about “it was in everyone’s best interest ez” (which is ironic due to him priding himself on ‘flip power’), that being visible in the center of *the biggest alliance in the game* is threatening and very dangerous (especially with cross tribe and even pregame friendships at play)
If Eli wasn’t insinuating any of that then oopsie THATS my b due to the argumentative nature of a rebuttal. As well as I’m down to debate him if he does have anything to say abt it so I can recontextualize what he said better.
(Hope that clears up why my response was what it was)
do you guys still want questions or....
Yeah I had decided I'm done rebutting for now, I know we probably reached the point it's annoying for you guys to keep up with. Without direction it is probably just going to be a slap fight, despite my urges I'm trying to let the back and forth end and see if jury has anything further they want cleared up.
I would appreciate any questions thought hahah
so obviously, having lots of power and control are things that help you build up a big resume in survivor. you can claim control over the direction that the game takes and influence each elimination to be what you want it to be. but these arent things that are just dropped into your lap. people who gain a lot of influence in the game usually gain that from having a huge presence socially. id like to know about, not just that you reached out and talked to everyone, but HOW you spoke to people and how you intended to come across. (question for all finalists btw)
Everyone but eli is at a disadvantage with this format. Even just things like not getting a notification on your phone through discord when someone posts means when you think to check it theres been multiple pages of posts and you're less likely to actually read through them. Which means you're more likely to just stick with the default vote. I've still tried to read the posts that looked important but I won't lie to you a lot of the posts (from everyone, probably including this very message) have been so long and unedited its been tough to read or have the motivation to follow.
That said, I have come to a decision and will just go ahead and let yall know now since its been long enough. I came into this ftc thinking that it was likely my vote was just locked on eli with a slight chance of voting tommy, but I'll outline my reasoning for what I eventually have settled on.
- Tommy, you have done a pretty good job answering questions but the biggest reason why I can't vote for you is that you either simply were not in as much control as you claim to be, or you were in control and you still decided to bring eli to the end. This was either a vast miscalculation, or you weren't really playing for an individual win of your own.
- Ryo, I know some people like Zach may not agree but I think you did the best job answering questions in ftc. However, I still think you lack awareness/game sense and often did not really know what was truly going on. Either that or you tried pulling off some weird lies that you should've known had no chance of landing (I believe it was the former, though). That said, you are the only one in this ftc that I have zero doubts really wanted to win and consistently showed the effort, and I think that should be worth something. Outside of my vote my opinion is worth very little, but fwiw I think you have grown tremendously as a player since s16.
- Eli, I still think you coasted too much on pregames. Like I said, pregames will be a part of this game for sure, but I think most of your relationships in game were built on a foundation of a previous friendship rather than organically occurring in game. I don't think its necessarily a coincidence that the jurors who have come out and supported very vocally are people you have been friends with for a while. Not saying it was unrelated to your in game actions, but I also think it would be disingenuous to say it had nothing to do with pregame friendships either.
Thanks for the question, I think it probably should give the thread some better direction.
In a game where numbers win out, connections are power. The person with the strongest allies supporting him the hardest has the most control. But it is important they really want to stand by you, otherwise it is for nothing.
I actually changed my playstyle slightly this game that my traditional game. I think my social game is usually good but can crumble near end as I burn too many bridges. People realise I have too many options often and combine to pick me near the end, it is probably the biggest flaw in my game. Historically I would make promises and try my best to live up to them in orgs, you need to tell people what they want to hear for them to align with you: this part is obvious. I think I am actually quite good at it.
I played with a girl from eimm named kim in a buddycop recently, personally I feel like she has the best social game of anyone I have met, and I have met a lot of org players be that genius game, 7ds, survivor or eimm, I have been around the block and played with hundreds of people. I really took this game with her as an opportunity to learn how to improve my own game.
So here is what I learned and I think it is nothing completely revolutionary, but it is something that is VERY hard to nail down: you need to be genuine. This is where kim excels to me, she can enter a game and everyone loves her, including newbies she meets. Almost without fail people want to align with her, her social game is just so powerful because she truly wants the best for her allies and in turn they respond back in kind.
Now, my heart is not as pure as kims and I am nowhere near as likable a person but it really inspired me and my core focus this game was when I told people I would work with them I wanted to be genuine and stick through to it, even in hindsight. This is what helped me on separatist to get so many s16 onside, in my opinion and may be the subtle difference between my and elis own play, why I left separatist more on the in with s16; I fully intended to stick by them and validated their decision to save me. Human nature can pick this out and I think this helped form genuine bonds with people. Of course I spoke to loyalists on merge to see could I get on side, but this was never at the cost of selling out my new friends who I had made promises.
Of course all things come to an end, but I really believe that my allies protecting me on s16 and early merge was good play for them, and I could support them and I believed I was repaying my debts and always intended to. This allowed me to not be shady and earnestly share in their success or downfall.
When you and me spoke psy, we became close and that relationship was real. Although I eventually cut you off, I would like to believe it came across I cared for your game deeply, and tried to save you multiple times. Although I ended up flipping on s16, as I had to if I did not want to be a goat, I think my promises were always honest, I wanted them to save me because it was a good play.
So, I do believe I had success with my process, though certainly not as much as kim herself. Genuinity and standing by promises I made, that is what made me someone people wanted to work with and someone who consistently made strong bonds, and hopefully someone that people enjoyed working with.
Although I was always playing to win, I never really attempted to gaslight or make someone throw, except debatably ryo at f8. People trusted me and wanted the best for me because I trusted them and when I made promises I tended to stick by them and honour my word. Another example of this was post zoa vote, torin and ryo were genuinely angry at me and I got back into their good graces immediately because I could honestly say I won't vote them again and will protect them both next vote. The same can be said when I was not close with tbz or eli, I thought both were in bad spots but I guarenteed them a much more enjoyable game and to be more included if they stuck with me - I think this is true, as both stood by me and I believe both of them are probably happy with their game now!
Even when it came to moments when difficulty truths were told, such as me telling zach he might not make f4, because I didn't have him in my f4, I think my ability to be honest caused people to trust me more.
Hi I will dm you this as one last push, but I believe this is a big misunderstanding.
Short reason: at f8 whoever I decided to take to the end outside of ryo/tbz always had the ability to claim "I survived".
This wasn't a unique play for eli, but the stance any of: zach, torin clouds would take. All 3 of these, particularly torin and clouds played better games. It is unfair to say eli survived despite being a threat or having a label. He survived on the basis of any outside person he had the least threatening game. Both eli and zach had similar pregame votes and statuses, but zach had more independent play.
Bring eli to the end was not a mistake I truly believe, because any of the others have both all of eli's arguments of survival + more.
I think there's a lot of truth to this statement. Unfortunately, imo that means you either have to do something to *really* stand out and outshine them, or make your move earlier to get them all out. Btw I just wanna reiterate I do respect your game and am only focusing on the negative because I have to. I remember when we were on the very first tribe together and you were memeing during the tribal tribal council thing I was thinking to myself "why is this clown in the game" but you proved that thought wrong emphatically. However, I think I've arrived at my final decision here.
Ok Janzen. At least you agree with my point. That being said, if the remainder of the jury vote similarly I think this just becomes a matter of who made it to the end with the most pregame.
Sad end to the game, as I feel that is what no one wanted. I played my heart out and to hear someone is voting not based on someone's gameplay, but their pregame and out of game reputation, is very soul destroying.
I hope not to many jurors choose to go this route, but if that is the case it is probably impossible for many people to ever win this game, especially when f4 only allows you to cut so many and it was impossible NOT to bring someone with pregame connections.
But I see you recognised I brought the one who played the worst at least, which at least tells me I did the best I could with the out of game connections I had.
Sad end to the game, as I feel that is what no one wanted. I played my heart out and to hear someone is voting not based on someone's gameplay, but their pregame and out of game reputation, is very soul destroying.
I hope not to many jurors choose to go this route, but if that is the case it is probably impossible for many people to ever win this game, especially when f4 only allows you to cut so many and it was impossible NOT to bring someone with pregame connections.
But I see you recognised I brought the one who played the worst at least, which at least tells me I did the best I could with the out of game connections I had.
Something I’ve heard people like to do is just try to make absolutely everyone like them.
Yes I did reach out to everyone and try to talk to everyone, (tbh I kind of got lucky that everyone was so likable)
But the main thing for me was carrying a sense of individuality with different people. While i certainly had a few traits that stuck out universally used as inspiration—- I also had the starcoin gag with you, the “letter writing” one with clouds, frequent vcs with Brandon-Zoa-torin, frequent life chats with Zach. This probably sounds redundant/obvious but I tried to have a different experience with everyone as people whether I had plans to boot em soon or not.
As for *gameplay* there were definitely tones I’ve used to imply I’m frantic over something or diction I’ve used regarding the game to encourage game talk. Overall though I wanted everyone I talked to- to know that I was playing the game, through my tone I tried to come across that even though I was new to orgs that I had a stake to be here and was playing hard and was an individual. (My biggest fear was that I’d play a strong game and be considered a goat)
So as some people can attest to, (not exactly you because I felt really comfortable during our separatist chats for ex) I tried to come off as having a sense of grandeur, I was a cocky big *personality* but I also wanted to have fun and my conversations were real.
Meeting clouds honestly really helped me because how he came off to me was how I wanted to be seen by other people. By the end of bigvivor I found myself not acting confident and “faking it till I make it” but actually being confident and knowing I had so much fun and played the best game I could regardless of whether it’s recognized or not.
Yikes sorry you probably were not expecting such an essay lmao
Hi Janzen and thank you for the kind words, I know you are planning to submit for Eli but I wanted to further enquire on what you said so I could prove my point to at least the rest of the jury
You say I lacked game/social awareness, this is a claim I got from Zach as well and tried to disprove. Are you saying this because I let Eli get to the end(something I can’t really elaborate on further) or are there other examples/janky lies that make you believe this?
This is important to me because if it’s just Eli then I can’t articulate myself better or explain further, but if theres something else I really do believe I can provide clarity.
(Thank you for recognizing my drive to win :>)
ftr, I cite shifting votes at f12 to avoid myself getting idoled out, feeling confident I’d survive f5 despite people on the opposing side being shocked by it;and overall knowing who the vote was between every time as evidence of social awareness
This is why I’m really jumpy to prove I did indeed have social awareness
I fully recognize the "Eli coasted too hard on pregames" argument, but I do feel like this is being blown too out of proportion. Everyone recognized Eli was in this threatening position, whether its for reasons beyond this game or not, and yet he was still allowed to land in FTC. I do believe this to be more a knock on other people's jury management than on Eli for (checks notes) "having friends". That's not really the point I want to make, though, because unlike some of the other people on the jury who didn't know Eli beforehand, I did actually get to play extensively with Eli, and I can definitely say he put in the work to make connections with people he hadn't met prior. His alliances to Ryo and I throughout a large portion of the game is strong evidence of this. This game was doomed to become the "EIMM vs s16" circlejerk from the moment the conversations began, and while I absolutely believe some players were never going to flip away from their pregame pals if they didn't have to, I think Eli is not one of those players. The connections certainly helped, but I adamantly disagree that he coasted to get here. Dude made connections and used them IMO
That said I will promptly be submitting my vote for TBZ, the one who clearly cares the most and is most deserving undoubtedly for sure
Question for you: would you prefer torin or clouds at over eli, if you were in my spot?
Period.