Return + Close Combat is the least of your worries when concerning Zangoose. Most of the time its nothing but a filler/wall buster and the real offensive move is Quick Attack + Swords Dance not taking into account attack modifying items. If it weren't for that I should like to think a simple Mach Punch would do away with it. But with 90 base speed and a priority modifier its hard to get a jump on it. There isn't really a Ghost either in UU who is either faster or won't get mauled by a lv2 Shadow Claw.
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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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Electrode is UU, to Sanjay.
I'm making a random UU team right now, but it's difficult to find a Pinsir counter. With base 100 defense, it's going to be difficult to revenge kill from the physical side. IMHO, Pinsir is even more dangerous than Heracross in UU---it doesn't die to one Aerial Ace from a faster Pokemon. They have the same base attack and speed, and the only difference is that Pinsir doesn't get Guts, Fighting STAB, and Megahorn. Scyther is easier to manage, has far less attack, and has arguably average defenses, a 4x weakness to SR, and doesn't have a broken movepool. I'm sorry for being off-topic on what is currently be discussed, so I'll close with one short statement---please consider banning Pinsir in UU.
EDIT: According to that list, it may be soon, so. =/
I'm making a random UU team right now, but it's difficult to find a Pinsir counter. With base 100 defense, it's going to be difficult to revenge kill from the physical side. IMHO, Pinsir is even more dangerous than Heracross in UU---it doesn't die to one Aerial Ace from a faster Pokemon. They have the same base attack and speed, and the only difference is that Pinsir doesn't get Guts, Fighting STAB, and Megahorn. Scyther is easier to manage, has far less attack, and has arguably average defenses, a 4x weakness to SR, and doesn't have a broken movepool. I'm sorry for being off-topic on what is currently be discussed, so I'll close with one short statement---please consider banning Pinsir in UU.
EDIT: According to that list, it may be soon, so. =/
Scyther's Aerial Ace is probably the only safe thing that can kill a standard offensive Pinsir since not even Rotom can resist an Earthquake due to Mold Breaker.
If Scyther's banned from UU, then Pinsir should get moved up to BL.
And Hypno with Wish, Seismic Toss and Hypnosis is quite deadly, along with its good defence and S.Defence.
If Scyther's banned from UU, then Pinsir should get moved up to BL.
And Hypno with Wish, Seismic Toss and Hypnosis is quite deadly, along with its good defence and S.Defence.
Have we had this outlook on the game before? When we ban a pokemon to BL, do we also consider what it previously countered and whether those pokemon are now BL as well? This is the relationship that Scyther and Pinsir had, though if Pinsir's only real threat is Scyther and status, it might have to go anyway.
As mentioned before, Pinsir has ridiculous base 100 defense, but I haven't done the calcs. Scyther should not be called a counter----it's not going to enjoy switching in to Stone Edge. Scarf Pinsir absolutely devastates UU. Pinsir's standard set is virtually the same as Heracross'. If we do not allow Heracross, and to an extent its OU counters, I see no reason for Pinsir to remain in UU.
I really opt for Clefable to be moved to BL. It has one heck of a movepool, which helps with its unpredictability. It has Magic Guard, which prevents it from dying to status attacks like Toxic. It has the surprise factor, and you really can't define a one true counter. I mean, max its HP and put a boatload of EVs in Defense, and watch it CM through any Neutral Physical hit. It can just use Softboiled, than rinse, lather, repeat. In UU, one of the few counters I see is Lanturn. Other than that, the Fighting types with CC, but if they try to switch in,, thy risk getting severely dent by a CM Powered Attack. Clefable can also Belly Drum. Cosmic Power a few times, Belly Drum, then use the physical move of your choice. Just heal away again. Very few things sufficently counter Clefable in UU. If someone can do some calcs, we'd see how good Clefable is.
Please go back and check one of the summary threads ... you wil quite clearly see that Scyther is one of the widely accepted NFE's and Pinisir is being considered for a move to BL in any case ...
It's annoying, can stall for a while, but deadly ... there is a lot of stuff that's more immediately threatening.
The majority of Clefable sets require some sort of set up ... why not use this to your own advantage by utilising moves like Psych UP and Snatch or simply use the stat upping process as an opprtunity to Encore. I've also had some fun with Skill Swap and Clefable, particularly where Clefable runs Toxic Orb. The of course there are old stalwarts like Roar, Haze and Perish Song.
Good. The fastest Pokemon in UU are mostly physical, and the few that aren't won't live to survive ScarfPinsir or even fail to OHKO it. Ninetales can revenge kill, but the main point is Pinsir has no definite counter. The closest thing in UU that can be called a counter is Nidoqueen, but even she will fall to a Choice Banded Earthquake. But then again, like Shiny Oddish said, it is likely that Pinsir will be moved up to BL.
For future reference, this is the counter section of Pinsir's analysis:
UU vs. OU in the counters section. Even the most newly introduced wall in UU, Claydol, fails to make a dent.
Since you were looking for a Pinsir counter earlier give Gorebyss a try. I'm pretty certain 252 atk+ Pinsir X-Scissor fails to do more than 35% on a +defense Gorebyss with HP investment, with Choice Band it usually comes short of a 2hko with Leftovers in effect. At the same time Gorebyss is also a very good Iron Defense, Agility, Amnesi, Aqua ring whatever BP'er making it great for support. It was actually my psuedo Metagross counter in Advance before it got Thunderpunch.
Meanwhile Gorebyss with 0 s.atk EV's hits back at Pinsir for over 75% on average with Hydro Pump which is a KO if SR is taken into account. Of course as I said thats with no s.attack EV investment, obviously a normal spread would have some s.attack. If you catch them on a Close Combat, than quite frankly they are dead.
So every team 'has' to carry Gorebyss? Yes, my team does have SR, but what if Hydro Pump misses? I don't like the idea of a Pokemon with such good potential switching in to a big hit even if it fails to 2HKO, then kill Pinsir back with ~10% left the next turn and being highly vulnerable to whatever else switches in. Make no mistake, I like Gorebyss a lot, but I don't think it impedes Pinsir's bid to BL, IMO.
I can think of a couple of things for countering Pinsir:
All calcs are done from a 252 atk +Nature Pinsir holding a Life Orb
1) 252 Def/252 HP +Def Nature Sandslash
Earthquake = 29.38% - 34.46%
Stone Edge = 14.69% - 17.23%
Close Combat = 35.03% - 41.24%
X-Scissor = 35.31% - 41.53%
Stone Edge to Pinsir from Sandslash = 53.87% - 63.47%
As you can see, Pinsir is mostly pulling off 3HKOs - 5HKOs with Leftovers on Sandslash, while Sandslash can 2HKO with Stone Edge.
2) Bulky waters such as Blastoise, Wailord, Quagsire, Gorebyss, Whiscash, etc.
The bulky Waters can all be tailored with their EV spreads to take his attacks just as well as Sandslash can, and they can all KO faster than they'll die.
Pinsir needs to stay in UU IMO. Just saying though, I don't really care if he does or not.
All calcs are done from a 252 atk +Nature Pinsir holding a Life Orb
1) 252 Def/252 HP +Def Nature Sandslash
Earthquake = 29.38% - 34.46%
Stone Edge = 14.69% - 17.23%
Close Combat = 35.03% - 41.24%
X-Scissor = 35.31% - 41.53%
Stone Edge to Pinsir from Sandslash = 53.87% - 63.47%
As you can see, Pinsir is mostly pulling off 3HKOs - 5HKOs with Leftovers on Sandslash, while Sandslash can 2HKO with Stone Edge.
2) Bulky waters such as Blastoise, Wailord, Quagsire, Gorebyss, Whiscash, etc.
The bulky Waters can all be tailored with their EV spreads to take his attacks just as well as Sandslash can, and they can all KO faster than they'll die.
Pinsir needs to stay in UU IMO. Just saying though, I don't really care if he does or not.
I don't think its possible given that the UU metagame is, at present, so limited, and we are still debating things to possibly move down from BL and the presence of NFE's.
Also given that Shoddy Battle does not record statistics do we use usage to determine NU? Possbily but this may lead to somewhat distorted results given the small number of people that regularly play UU.
Take Noctowl for example, last gen it was classed as NU, this gen it has been used in a significant number of UU battles on Shoddy. Now its usage has not been wide, but it has been used a lot because I now use it on the majority of my teams and I probably am one of the leading UU battlers in terms of number of matches played.
Do we use power? If so how do we define what is too weak/powreful as those terms are both incredibly subjective ...
At present I think its best to try and get UU sorted as much as possible before moving on to NU ...
NU should be classified by power, not usage. Most normal tiers for all other games work this way, so we should attempt to do things the correct way as much as possible.
There are some preliminary tier lists that offer a NU section like http://shoddybattle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=92&sid=7ef131ff7f2b53d9f42ac1f8efbe9967
This could be used as a starting point for debate on those to be moved up or down. In another thread though, this thread is for BL/UU debate only.
There are some preliminary tier lists that offer a NU section like http://shoddybattle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=92&sid=7ef131ff7f2b53d9f42ac1f8efbe9967
This could be used as a starting point for debate on those to be moved up or down. In another thread though, this thread is for BL/UU debate only.
There is a reason I left its Ev's upto the imagination and it was only off the top my head...I just mentioned Gorebyss because it can switch in comfortably and put Pinsir under immediate defensive threat which is the very definition of a counter
Point being is you're not thinking outside the box enough. Bologo managed to name a good few counters.
Gorebyss takes 74% minimum by a JOLLY Swords Danced Pinsir's X-Scissor, assuming max HP/max Def+. How could it be considered a counter?
here I've listed Swords Dance Pinsir capabilities against te bulkiest UU, and there is not a single one capable of avoid at least the 2HKO. Enjoy finding a real counter for it.
here I've listed Swords Dance Pinsir capabilities against te bulkiest UU, and there is not a single one capable of avoid at least the 2HKO. Enjoy finding a real counter for it.
Thanks for the link. I see all the guys I asked about are NU here. I made an NU shoddy team once... and actually won sometimes. Unless there was Stealth Rock up, of course.
Stop assuming he gets a Sword's Dance for free.
He has to switch in, SD, and attack.
More often than not, this means he gets one SD attack or two non SD attacks.
Consider factoring in SR also.
OR BETTER YET: Just use Pinsir yourself in UU. He's not impossible to counter, I've done it with a Drifblim.
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