Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Mimikyu Stardust]

AN EXTENSIVE GUIDE TO "LUCK/Hax HO" (and why its underrated)
How to hax your opponents from 1000 elo to the Cream of the crops at 2000 elo.

Hey guys, its me, Mimikyu Stardust, i am here to give an analysis/guide to a play style ive been using for a while and have seen success from multiple people the past month in the 1900+ Elo of OU and consistently win games, it is of course, "Hax HO" or "Luck HO", a team where its main goal is to bruise their opponent by Haxing them very badly untill the end where a fast mon/set-up sweeper can clean the game.

This post will go through the things that make a Luck-HO, Examples of teams with Luck-HO and replays from me and other people aswell.

What is a Luck HO?

Luck HO is a team style where the main goal of the team is to abuse hax to your advantage by building a team around it. You want to maximize the potential of hax while miinimalizing the risks of fishing for hax. The team wants to get the most out of luck by first setting up screens or paralyzing everything so that you can hax them with ease by flinching them down multiple time or getting lucky with quick claw with minimum risk. Luck HO does need a lot of support from paralysis and screens to help your mons abuse hax, this also means you can slot in other mons that benefits from screens/paralysis or having a team severly chipped from brute-forcing through hax.


How do you build a Luck HO?

Just as the title suggest, Luck HO teams wants to maximize the potential for haxing while minimalizing the potential for your opponent to outplay by taking massive risks and aggressive doubles while conserving as much pokemon as possible for a potential unwanted lategame mon-for-mon trades. Hax/Luck HO has 4 core attributes which makes it what it is, Quick Claw, Flinches and secondary effects, Paralysis, and last but not least Screens. Combining a few of these attributes to what makes a Luck HO, well, Luck HO is very important to maximize the potential for hax and minimalizing potential of outplaying. Do keep in mind, you dont want to just rely on Hax all the time, so be sure to have some immediate threats or support on other pokemon. So heres the attributes explained one by one in detail.


Four Core Attributes of Luck HO
​

1. Quick Claw. Quick Claw is an item which has a 20% chance for your pokemon to move first. NOW REMEMBER, Quick Claw is NOT Priority, essentially, it means you have "Infinity + speedstat" Amount of speed when Quick Claw activates, hence why psychic terrain doesn't block Quick Claw. Of course, the main user of Quick Claw is Galarian Slowbro combining its Quick Draw ability, decent bulk, decent typing and set up moves can make for a potential nuke that is able to win games from then and there, BUT Quick Claw isn't only viable on Glowbro, it can be used by almost any pokemon that lacks some speed, another famous example of Quick Claw user is Glastrier with its 145 Base Attack Stat, Massive bulk and its almost unwallable coverage its a perfect user of said item by swords dancing turn one and hope for the best (not to mention the dirty 30% flinch of icicle crash). Basically, Quick Claw can be greatly abused with mons that have great coverage, Amazing Bulk, Set-up move and just fast enough speed to run through the slow fat mons.

2. Flinches and Secondary Effects. Flinches or Secondary effects are what people usually think of when they think of 'hax' as these are the most common type of hax you will probably see as most teams would probably have moves with secondary effects anyways, but Luck HO takes these moves and abuses its potential to the FULLEST. Most commonly found are moves with Flinch or Confusion as they help essentially cancelling out a turn and give you free damage which adds up overtime, the main user of flinches are Togekiss, Jirachi, and Melmetal, the first two with their serene grace ability and the latter with its double iron bash massive flinch rate. Meanwhile confusion is most commonly spread by hurricane users like Torn-t and G-molt, it can also be spread by other niche mons like Golurk and Machamp (both can use quick claw too) with dynamic punch. Moltres Galar is a special case as it can also flinch down unlucky opponents.

3. Paralysis. Paralysis is potentially the most annoying status condition, from its halving speed effect and the random immobilization of a pokemon, it sits right with the playstyle that is Luck-HO. Almost all Luck-HO team needs or at least has paralysis support to help them set-up or hax through their opponents, combined with flinches, the chances of your opponent being able to move is reduced greatly. Paralysis mainly comes from Thunder Wave and Glare, Stun Spore doesn't have much abusers that work with Luck-HO Strats other than Butterfree whichi have a hunch that you don't want to use that. Druddigon of course is the best paralysis spreader with its mold breaker + taunt + glare combo able to spread at least 1 paralysis with the help of focus sash/mental herb. Melmetal, Togekiss and Jirachi are amazing flinchers that can support themselves with their own paralysis move like thunder wave/body slam. Other unexpected way to paralyze people is to use Fling + Lightball to catch people off guard, tho this is not that great as you are sacrificing an item for a one time paralysis.

4. Screens. Screens isn't inherently a luck based move like the others, but it does help with this strategy a lot. Luck-HO Requires a ton of set-up, free turns and things to soften up risks, and screens greatly help with that, for example. Galarian Slowbro can run a Belly Drum set for a potentially destructive fast sweeper, but it can't run sitrus berry due to it needing quick claw, so, using drum glowbro behind screens can help remedy that and let it take much less damage to be able to sweep. Screens can also help with softening the risks of going for multiple flinches, for example, Scarf Togekiss gets 2hkoed from full by tapu koko, but behind screens it gets 3hkoed, so togekiss can fish for airslash flinches much more safely.

Potential Members Of Luck-HO

Now that you have understood the basics of Luck-HO, lets talk members. I'm going to mention potential members under the same 4 category as above, so here we go!
​

1. Quick Claw

What makes a good Quick Claw Abuser? Good Bulk, Set-up sweeping potential, Spammable stabs, Can beat fatter mons

Slowbro-Galar

Glowbro of course is the posterchild of Quick Claw because of its ability, bulk, setup potential and spammable moves. Nasty Plot sets usually run Psychock + coverage most commonly are sludge bomb, flamethrower, ice beam or focus blast. Belly Drum sets usually run a fixed set of its Zen Headbutt + Shellsidearm + Drain Punch. Both sets are great and work in very similar teams so you can't really predict whether glowbro would be physical or special, they also have relatively different checks so this helps it become a bit more threatening.

Belly Drummer
Slowbro-Galar @ Quick Claw
Ability: Quick Draw
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Shell Side Arm

Nasty Plot
Slowbro-Galar @ Quick Claw
Ability: Quick Draw
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Bomb

Glastrier

Glastrier is another great abuser of quick claw because of its amazing bulk, great attack stat, swords dance and great coverage it makes for a great abuser of quick claw. After setting up just one swords dance, glastrier can 2hit KO any pokemon that isnt physically defensive Buzzwole or Tapu Fini. Glastrier's bulk lets it make risky plays a lot more than other pokemon and combined that with the chances of quick claw, playing around it is a nightmare

Swords Dance
Glastrier @ Quick Claw
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 204 HP / 252 Atk / 52 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- Close Combat
- High Horsepower

Tapu Bulu

Now here we go to the unconventionals. Tapu Bulu is very strong, on its own, tapu bulu is already very good in overused with its swords dance set, most people use life orb to make it even harder to wall, some use leftovers to get even more recovery, i've even seen people use Coba berry to be able to beat Zapdos and Tornadus-therian, my point is, it doesn't really matter what item it has, its always going to be good as a swords dancer. So equipped with quick claw it adds an element of BS to it, and you don't even hurt yourself that much as bulu doesnt need an item to be good, ive seen this work in 1900+ ladder by another person experimenting with hax teams as well, and bulu did work.

Swords Dancer
Tapu Bulu @ Quick Claw
Ability: Grassy Surge
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Horn Leech
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance

Dhelmise

Dhelmise works with quick claw because it has a MASSIVE base attack stat of 131 with stabs like Poltergeist and Power Whip, it runs over neutral targets especially with swords dance, it has a pretty decent bulk of 70/100/90 on top of pretty decent defensive typing for the tier, giving it a lot of set-up opportunity againts a lot of pokemon. Once at +2, its a game of sacs and praying that you oneshot dhelmise, or that it doesnt get the quick claw boost. it is insanely strong and can practically oneshot everything except for a select few, so don't sleep on it.

Swords Dancer
Dhelmise @ Quick Claw
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Poltergeist
- Power Whip
- Earthquake / Anchor Shot

Of course, these are not the only viable user of quick claw, there are definetly other mons that can work like Machamp, Melmetal, Stakataka and others.

2. Flinchers and Secondary Effects.

Flinchers and Secondary effects can be easily abused in a Luck Based HO team because they essentially give you free turns with flinches, confusion or status, so here are some mons that can do that very nicely.

Togekiss

Togekiss of course, is the face of "Serene Grace Flinches" with its decent speed stat, deceptively great bulk and good special attack it is able to wear down the enemy efficiently without having too much risk. Togekiss can run a lot of sets, from para-spreader, scarfer, sub nasty plot, sub salac, cleric and a lot more, the utility togekiss gives to Luck HO is priceless and is one of the best members on these teams. The amount of games where togekiss has won despite the odds i've had is insane.

Scarf
Momo (Togekiss) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Flamethrower / Aura Sphere / Substitute
- Trick

Sub-Salac
Dynasty (Togekiss) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 228 HP / 28 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Flamethrower / Roost / Aura Sphere
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute

Sub-Lefties
Dynasty (Togekiss) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Thunder Wave / Flamethrower
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute

Melmetal

Melmetal is amazing as a flincher because of its massive bulk and attack, its own paralysis spreading and the broken move that is double iron bash with its amazing power and flinch chance, it has basically overshadow Jirachi as the self-supporting parahax steel type mon after all these years. Melmetal is rather slow so it does need quite a bit of speed investment to beat out some walls like Blissey and Hippowdon and support from paralyzers (including itself) but the reward is much better in a massive damage dealing flinching mon that tears open stall especially with protective pads.

Pads Mel
Melmetal @ Protective Pads
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 40 HP / 232 Atk / 92 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Superpower
- Thunder Punch
- Thunder Wave

Jirachi

Jirachi is not as great as it used to be, losing its Z-Omniboost set, Ghosts types, heatran and weavile being at their peak, chip, hazards and residual damage being at its peak its no wonder it has fell off, BUT it does not mean that it is bad, in fact it does have some desirable traits in its new Cosmic Power sets, Pivot and Scarf its still a genuine threat in the tier, on hax/luck teams it does have massive competition with melmetal due to their similar roles and melmetal having the better stab, but jirachi does have the speed over it which in a lot of cases can be much more useful.

Discount Mel
Jirachi @ Protective Pads
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Wave / Body Slam
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Zen Headbutt

Snored Power
Jirachi @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Snore
- Rest
- Cosmic Power

Scarf
Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Ice Punch
- Iron Head
- Trick

Support
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 184 SpD / 72 Spe
Careful Nature
- Wish / Doom Desire / Future Sight
- Iron Head
- Body Slam / U-turn / Doom Desire / Future Sight
- Protect / Doom Desire / Future Sight

Galarian Moltres

G-molt is an amazing set-up sweeper with its dual dance set or nasty taunt set because hax-ho has the perfect support for it in screens and paralysis, not to mention, g-molt also has quite a bit of hax itself, with the nasty flinch chance of fiery wrath and confuse chance of hurricane, although thats more of a side product of gmolt's great positives for a hax team.

Dual Dance
Canary (Moltres-Galar) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 144 HP / 252 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Nasty Plot
- Fiery Wrath
- Hurricane / Air Slash

Taunt
Moltres-Galar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 156 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Wrath
- Hurricane
- Taunt
- Nasty Plot

Tornadus-Therian

Torn-T is similar to Gmolt as it is a nasty plot user that spams hurricane, but unlike gmolt it doesnt have the berserk ability which increases its special, and it also has coverage in sludge bomb and focus blast.

Nasty Plot
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb
- Taunt / Knock Off

Cloyster

R.I.P

3. Paralysis.

Paralysis is something that lends very well to hax teams due to the nature of lowering speed and potential free turns making Luck-HO much more of a hassle to face down, now unlike the previous 2, im just going to list some mons that can spread paralysis greatly.

Druddigon has mold breaker glare, giving it the most spammable paralysis move in the game.
Melmetal is an absolute tank and can spread its own paralysis with its Pads set making it hard to play around.
Togekiss is one of the best flinchers, and it can spread paralysis quite easily due to the many free turns it gets.
Dragapult can spread paralysis easily with its great speed while able to capitalize on it with a powerful Hex
Klefki, while definetly more niche, it can set up hazards and screens in the same time while spreading paralysis so it is a nice pick, it can also run some gimmicky trick sets for things like sticky barbs or lagging tail.
while similar to klefki, its another screen setter with paralysis thunder wave, but this time it has taunt.
Zydog is another great glare pokemon because of its unwallable thousand arrows and potential to trap with thousand waves
Sandaconda is Pretty much the same as Zydog utility wise but it doesnt have the attacking power, rather much better bulk
Jirachi is like melmetal and togekiss, a great flincher which can support itself with its own paralysis.

these are definetly not the only ones, but the ones that are worth it to mention, there are of course other things like Fling Lightball users, Stun Spore, Nuzzle and other thunder waver, but theyre not as good as these ones i mention.

4. Screens.

Screens and HO Pairs together very well, On Luck-HO its no difference, screens can help the set-up sweepers like slowbro-g and togekiss to go to their full potential to hax, or just support the flinchers to be able to fish for riskier flinches like Scarf togekiss on a Tapu Koko.

Grimmsnarl is perfect for luck-ho, not only it has prankster screens, it also has thunder wave and taunt for extra utility.
Klefki is also great with its prankster screens, but unlike grimmsnarl it doesnt have taunt, but it does have spikes.
Koko is the standard screen setter with its fast speed, terrain, pivot and taunt, theres nothing wrong with using the standard.
Alolan-Ninetales as a whole is a great support with its aurora veil and support moves to help the other mons set-up, the advantage this has over koko is aurora veil is only one move so it can set things up midgame much easier, and it also has more support moves like encore to help the other mons set-up
Not a conventional screener, but it does have utility like thunder wave on top of its great speed which will be shown later in this post.
Im not a fan of Regieleki screens, but as the faster screener with spin and explosion, it deserves a shoutout.
Latios isnt the best, but its utility of memento on top of screens can help something set-up big time like a belly drum slowbro-g

5. General Pokemon.

Now, just because its a Luck based HO, doesnt mean everything have to rely on luck, you need some mons that can actually do things without hax, for example: Volcarona can clean up late game while being an excellent midgame offensive pivot for things like kartana, Chomp can be a great electric immunity in HO and can also sweep on its own, giving the team some more threats to look out for, Blace can be used as an immediate threat with specs or scarf.
My point is, even tho the team is build around abusing hax, it needs some support in immediate strength and support so it doesn't just lose to well-made teams.

Examples Of Luck HO Teams with Replays.

Now, last month, me and a few people have tested a bunch of Luck-HO with a lot of different builds (On high ladder), i have 3 teams to showoff by 3 different people, im going to start off with one by Vertex.
1.

Quick Claw HO by Vertex

The general idea of this team is to SPAM set-up pokemon equipped with quick claw behind veil, so that you have the BIGGEST chance to activate quick claw, 20% chance is actually a lot when every turn it can happen, there are games where this works and games where they dont, but vertex made the team so that even if you don't get the set-up move that you want, you still have a chance to win due to the strenght of the pokemon chosen and also the fact that set-up spam + screens is already good enough. You can change the members of the team of course as vertex did during his run, but everything needs to have their own utility without quick claw, but gets much better when it does.

Here are some replays highlighting the team.
vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1541296499-1paf6dqx9l0ihctgoxk1m5vuq7sgv31pw

Overview

On this battle, vertex had a bit of a tough match-up with volcarona and dnite, but they quickly get stopped by the only few quick claw activation that happen, smart strike on dnite and psyshock on volcarona. the team benefits a lot from screens to be able to set-up and quick claw to get those emergency kills, but as the game progress you can see that the team itself doesn't really need the quick claw, but the quick claw is very nice as it helps a lot with some unfortunate match-ups.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1541351834-hwhikaitx25ti4cyyyeloyuv9xpqlcvpw

Overview

On this battle, vertex had a bad match-up with Sand vs Alolan ninetales veil, but the strength of quick claw 'Quickly' shows with kartana sweeping the team after getting a few lucky activation.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1541158140-brpbnvc26q6cdtsyohoacsrs28xqfiwpw

Overview

This match once again, shows the utility of quick claw getting the revenge kill on blacephalon and dragonite, and even without those 2, so it shows that quick claw truly has something going for it.

2.

Hax Forecast Paraspam by Me :D

I made an RMT of this team last month which you can find here (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...arahax-spam-peak-1-2074-elo-85-3-gxe.3699903/) but the main idea of the team is to spam as much paralysis so that you can bruise through the team with togekiss and melmetal so in the end you can clean up with volcarona or zeraora. Its made to capitalize on the massive flinch chance of togekiss' air slash and melmetal's double iron bash by spreading as much paralysis as possible. You don't need to luck you opponent with this team because of the other 3 pokemon able to make this a more standard offense. I went more in depth about this team on my RMT, but this is the general description of the team.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1541290595-g4pu08mardf10r7f9t5vefg3ru4a20spw

Overview

On this battle, the early game i had a bit of a hiccup with melmetal getting paralyzed and knocked and ferrothorn stacking hazard, but that quickly gets remedied by togekiss able to flinch down clefable, tapu koko and ferrothorn to low health which later on in the game, Hydreigon, Volcarona and Zeraora cleaned nicely.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1542755272-qe2v7pdwhkor06gcjyrwxzx1p28zyjupw

Overview

This match TRULY shows the power of paralysis, againts bulkier teams like this one, Flinches and Paralysis can basically just sweep due to their passive playstyle making togekiss able to set-up nasty plots much easier while druddigon and melmetal almost gets paralysis freely on every pokemon, so on battles like this, theres almost no way you could fail with the combination of paralysis and hax.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538468600-2np1wd4zx74yucchp0e87glfhye2hkrpw

Overview

This match it shows the potential of the team when it hax 100% of the time, the amount of momentum you get from built up free turns from flinches and paralysis is immense.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1537603799-w4mryd8y6nv9imzy55gf9xfer7xjvi6pw

Overview

This replay shows that even when you dont get much hax, with great playing, it can still work,

3.

Glowbro + Registeel Screens HO by SetsuSetsuna

Now this team is similar to the first one in that it abuses screen + quick claw slowbro, originally made by SetsuSetsuna which you can find her RMT here (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1900-zoroark-registeel-ho-ft-gbro-and-screens-pult.3699922/) it has the combination of Screens + Glowbro (which this time is belly drum) with extra support in scarf memento zoroark, with those thing in mind it has 3 other set up sweeper in Timid Kartana, SD Garchomp and the more gimmicky but still excellent Chinese Registeel, not to mention Zoroark can play some intense mindgame on the field too.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1540312761-94kxegylj2jz61umiyol74czwndmryxpw

Overview

This game, the support of dragapult helped Kartana to break through the fat team before in the end, slowbro can safely belly drum and cleaned up the team with no problem.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1541838855

Overview

This battle is opposite from the last, Slowbro bruised the team very badly by setting up on a passive pokemon in clefable, before in the end Chinese Registeel sets up to the max and cleaned up the game.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1540805954-cp9qlawtuynvljcdv9pmvyopm0nyv08pw

Overview

This game starts off with kartana with the help of curse dragapult to chip the team, before getting off a memento on melmetal and letting glowbro set up a drum and beating their fast physical sweepers, which then lets garchomp + registeel to clean the game.

CONCLUSION

Luck-HO is definetly one of the more gimmicky playstyle, in which you rely on hax to win the game, but not all luck HO team nesseceraly need hax to win, a well built team with 2 or 3 elements of hax can work greatly as in cases where you are unlucky, you can still win the game with your other Utility or Offensive pokemon. My point of this post is to spread the word that Hax/Luck-HO is actually good, viable and can be used in a serious game (which i did in a round of OU SSNL and won the game, didnt save the replay tho which i regretted). While the style is Cheesy and can be inconsistent somewhat, if the team is well made and can check threats very well it could definetly work, plus this style of team is great to counter team certain teams or style like Stall or Balance in case you are in a tournament and need to Counter Team Somebody, Anyways.

GOODBYE EVERYONE

shoutouts to Vertex and SetsuSetsuna for their contributions (also vertex used this post to ask for a qc suspect)​

 

[LOOR]

)​

my brother in christ you can have the like for the effort in the post but nobody believe this foolish propaganda, please.

 

[Cuddly]

AN EXTENSIVE GUIDE TO "LUCK/Hax HO" (and why its underrated)
How to hax your opponents from 1000 elo to the Cream of the crops at 2000 elo.
View attachment 418511
Hey guys, its me, Mimikyu Stardust, i am here to give an analysis/guide to a play style ive been using for a while and have seen success from multiple people the past month in the 1900+ Elo of OU and consistently win games, it is of course, "Hax HO" or "Luck HO", a team where its main goal is to bruise their opponent by Haxing them very badly untill the end where a fast mon/set-up sweeper can clean the game.

This post will go through the things that make a Luck-HO, Examples of teams with Luck-HO and replays from me and other people aswell.

What is a Luck HO?
Luck HO is a team style where the main goal of the team is to abuse hax to your advantage by building a team around it. You want to maximize the potential of hax while miinimalizing the risks of fishing for hax. The team wants to get the most out of luck by first setting up screens or paralyzing everything so that you can hax them with ease by flinching them down multiple time or getting lucky with quick claw with minimum risk. Luck HO does need a lot of support from paralysis and screens to help your mons abuse hax, this also means you can slot in other mons that benefits from screens/paralysis or having a team severly chipped from brute-forcing through hax.

How do you build a Luck HO?
Just as the title suggest, Luck HO teams wants to maximize the potential for haxing while minimalizing the potential for your opponent to outplay by taking massive risks and aggressive doubles while conserving as much pokemon as possible for a potential unwanted lategame mon-for-mon trades. Hax/Luck HO has 4 core attributes which makes it what it is, Quick Claw, Flinches and secondary effects, Paralysis, and last but not least Screens. Combining a few of these attributes to what makes a Luck HO, well, Luck HO is very important to maximize the potential for hax and minimalizing potential of outplaying. Do keep in mind, you dont want to just rely on Hax all the time, so be sure to have some immediate threats or support on other pokemon. So heres the attributes explained one by one in detail.

Four Core Attributes of Luck HO​

1. Quick Claw. Quick Claw is an item which has a 20% chance for your pokemon to move first. NOW REMEMBER, Quick Claw is NOT Priority, essentially, it means you have "Infinity + speedstat" Amount of speed when Quick Claw activates, hence why psychic terrain doesn't block Quick Claw. Of course, the main user of Quick Claw is Galarian Slowbro combining its Quick Draw ability, decent bulk, decent typing and set up moves can make for a potential nuke that is able to win games from then and there, BUT Quick Claw isn't only viable on Glowbro, it can be used by almost any pokemon that lacks some speed, another famous example of Quick Claw user is Glastrier with its 145 Base Attack Stat, Massive bulk and its almost unwallable coverage its a perfect user of said item by swords dancing turn one and hope for the best (not to mention the dirty 30% flinch of icicle crash). Basically, Quick Claw can be greatly abused with mons that have great coverage, Amazing Bulk, Set-up move and just fast enough speed to run through the slow fat mons.

2. Flinches and Secondary Effects. Flinches or Secondary effects are what people usually think of when they think of 'hax' as these are the most common type of hax you will probably see as most teams would probably have moves with secondary effects anyways, but Luck HO takes these moves and abuses its potential to the FULLEST. Most commonly found are moves with Flinch or Confusion as they help essentially cancelling out a turn and give you free damage which adds up overtime, the main user of flinches are Togekiss, Jirachi, and Melmetal, the first two with their serene grace ability and the latter with its double iron bash massive flinch rate. Meanwhile confusion is most commonly spread by hurricane users like Torn-t and G-molt, it can also be spread by other niche mons like Golurk and Machamp (both can use quick claw too) with dynamic punch. Moltres Galar is a special case as it can also flinch down unlucky opponents.

3. Paralysis. Paralysis is potentially the most annoying status condition, from its halving speed effect and the random immobilization of a pokemon, it sits right with the playstyle that is Luck-HO. Almost all Luck-HO team needs or at least has paralysis support to help them set-up or hax through their opponents, combined with flinches, the chances of your opponent being able to move is reduced greatly. Paralysis mainly comes from Thunder Wave and Glare, Stun Spore doesn't have much abusers that work with Luck-HO Strats other than Butterfree whichi have a hunch that you don't want to use that. Druddigon of course is the best paralysis spreader with its mold breaker + taunt + glare combo able to spread at least 1 paralysis with the help of focus sash/mental herb. Melmetal, Togekiss and Jirachi are amazing flinchers that can support themselves with their own paralysis move like thunder wave/body slam. Other unexpected way to paralyze people is to use Fling + Lightball to catch people off guard, tho this is not that great as you are sacrificing an item for a one time paralysis.

4. Screens. Screens isn't inherently a luck based move like the others, but it does help with this strategy a lot. Luck-HO Requires a ton of set-up, free turns and things to soften up risks, and screens greatly help with that, for example. Galarian Slowbro can run a Belly Drum set for a potentially destructive fast sweeper, but it can't run sitrus berry due to it needing quick claw, so, using drum glowbro behind screens can help remedy that and let it take much less damage to be able to sweep. Screens can also help with softening the risks of going for multiple flinches, for example, Scarf Togekiss gets 2hkoed from full by tapu koko, but behind screens it gets 3hkoed, so togekiss can fish for airslash flinches much more safely.

Potential Members Of Luck-HO
Now that you have understood the basics of Luck-HO, lets talk members. I'm going to mention potential members under the same 4 category as above, so here we go!
​

1. Quick Claw

What makes a good Quick Claw Abuser? Good Bulk, Set-up sweeping potential, Spammable stabs, Can beat fatter mons

Slowbro-Galar

Glowbro of course is the posterchild of Quick Claw because of its ability, bulk, setup potential and spammable moves. Nasty Plot sets usually run Psychock + coverage most commonly are sludge bomb, flamethrower, ice beam or focus blast. Belly Drum sets usually run a fixed set of its Zen Headbutt + Shellsidearm + Drain Punch. Both sets are great and work in very similar teams so you can't really predict whether glowbro would be physical or special, they also have relatively different checks so this helps it become a bit more threatening.

Belly Drummer
Slowbro-Galar @ Quick Claw
Ability: Quick Draw
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Shell Side Arm

Nasty Plot
Slowbro-Galar @ Quick Claw
Ability: Quick Draw
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Bomb

Glastrier

Glastrier is another great abuser of quick claw because of its amazing bulk, great attack stat, swords dance and great coverage it makes for a great abuser of quick claw. After setting up just one swords dance, glastrier can 2hit KO any pokemon that isnt physically defensive Buzzwole or Tapu Fini. Glastrier's bulk lets it make risky plays a lot more than other pokemon and combined that with the chances of quick claw, playing around it is a nightmare

Swords Dance
Glastrier @ Quick Claw
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 204 HP / 252 Atk / 52 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- Close Combat
- High Horsepower

Tapu Bulu

Now here we go to the unconventionals. Tapu Bulu is very strong, on its own, tapu bulu is already very good in overused with its swords dance set, most people use life orb to make it even harder to wall, some use leftovers to get even more recovery, i've even seen people use Coba berry to be able to beat Zapdos and Tornadus-therian, my point is, it doesn't really matter what item it has, its always going to be good as a swords dancer. So equipped with quick claw it adds an element of BS to it, and you don't even hurt yourself that much as bulu doesnt need an item to be good, ive seen this work in 1900+ ladder by another person experimenting with hax teams as well, and bulu did work.

Swords Dancer
Tapu Bulu @ Quick Claw
Ability: Grassy Surge
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Horn Leech
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance

Dhelmise

Dhelmise works with quick claw because it has a MASSIVE base attack stat of 131 with stabs like Poltergeist and Power Whip, it runs over neutral targets especially with swords dance, it has a pretty decent bulk of 70/100/90 on top of pretty decent defensive typing for the tier, giving it a lot of set-up opportunity againts a lot of pokemon. Once at +2, its a game of sacs and praying that you oneshot dhelmise, or that it doesnt get the quick claw boost. it is insanely strong and can practically oneshot everything except for a select few, so don't sleep on it.

Swords Dancer
Dhelmise @ Quick Claw
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Poltergeist
- Power Whip
- Earthquake / Anchor Shot

Of course, these are not the only viable user of quick claw, there are definetly other mons that can work like Machamp, Melmetal, Stakataka and others.

2. Flinchers and Secondary Effects.

Flinchers and Secondary effects can be easily abused in a Luck Based HO team because they essentially give you free turns with flinches, confusion or status, so here are some mons that can do that very nicely.

Togekiss

Togekiss of course, is the face of "Serene Grace Flinches" with its decent speed stat, deceptively great bulk and good special attack it is able to wear down the enemy efficiently without having too much risk. Togekiss can run a lot of sets, from para-spreader, scarfer, sub nasty plot, sub salac, cleric and a lot more, the utility togekiss gives to Luck HO is priceless and is one of the best members on these teams. The amount of games where togekiss has won despite the odds i've had is insane.

Scarf
Momo (Togekiss) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Flamethrower / Aura Sphere / Substitute
- Trick

Sub-Salac
Dynasty (Togekiss) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 228 HP / 28 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Flamethrower / Roost / Aura Sphere
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute

Sub-Lefties
Dynasty (Togekiss) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Thunder Wave / Flamethrower
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute

Melmetal

Melmetal is amazing as a flincher because of its massive bulk and attack, its own paralysis spreading and the broken move that is double iron bash with its amazing power and flinch chance, it has basically overshadow Jirachi as the self-supporting parahax steel type mon after all these years. Melmetal is rather slow so it does need quite a bit of speed investment to beat out some walls like Blissey and Hippowdon and support from paralyzers (including itself) but the reward is much better in a massive damage dealing flinching mon that tears open stall especially with protective pads.

Pads Mel
Melmetal @ Protective Pads
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 40 HP / 232 Atk / 92 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Superpower
- Thunder Punch
- Thunder Wave

Jirachi

Jirachi is not as great as it used to be, losing its Z-Omniboost set, Ghosts types, heatran and weavile being at their peak, chip, hazards and residual damage being at its peak its no wonder it has fell off, BUT it does not mean that it is bad, in fact it does have some desirable traits in its new Cosmic Power sets, Pivot and Scarf its still a genuine threat in the tier, on hax/luck teams it does have massive competition with melmetal due to their similar roles and melmetal having the better stab, but jirachi does have the speed over it which in a lot of cases can be much more useful.

Discount Mel
Jirachi @ Protective Pads
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Wave / Body Slam
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Zen Headbutt

Snored Power
Jirachi @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Snore
- Rest
- Cosmic Power

Scarf
Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Ice Punch
- Iron Head
- Trick

Support
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 184 SpD / 72 Spe
Careful Nature
- Wish / Doom Desire / Future Sight
- Iron Head
- Body Slam / U-turn / Doom Desire / Future Sight
- Protect / Doom Desire / Future Sight

Galarian Moltres

G-molt is an amazing set-up sweeper with its dual dance set or nasty taunt set because hax-ho has the perfect support for it in screens and paralysis, not to mention, g-molt also has quite a bit of hax itself, with the nasty flinch chance of fiery wrath and confuse chance of hurricane, although thats more of a side product of gmolt's great positives for a hax team.

Dual Dance
Canary (Moltres-Galar) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 144 HP / 252 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Nasty Plot
- Fiery Wrath
- Hurricane / Air Slash

Taunt
Moltres-Galar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 156 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Wrath
- Hurricane
- Taunt
- Nasty Plot

Tornadus-Therian

Torn-T is similar to Gmolt as it is a nasty plot user that spams hurricane, but unlike gmolt it doesnt have the berserk ability which increases its special, and it also has coverage in sludge bomb and focus blast.

Nasty Plot
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb
- Taunt / Knock Off

Cloyster

R.I.P

3. Paralysis.

Paralysis is something that lends very well to hax teams due to the nature of lowering speed and potential free turns making Luck-HO much more of a hassle to face down, now unlike the previous 2, im just going to list some mons that can spread paralysis greatly.

Druddigon has mold breaker glare, giving it the most spammable paralysis move in the game.
Melmetal is an absolute tank and can spread its own paralysis with its Pads set making it hard to play around.
Togekiss is one of the best flinchers, and it can spread paralysis quite easily due to the many free turns it gets.
Dragapult can spread paralysis easily with its great speed while able to capitalize on it with a powerful Hex
Klefki, while definetly more niche, it can set up hazards and screens in the same time while spreading paralysis so it is a nice pick, it can also run some gimmicky trick sets for things like sticky barbs or lagging tail.
while similar to klefki, its another screen setter with paralysis thunder wave, but this time it has taunt.
Zydog is another great glare pokemon because of its unwallable thousand arrows and potential to trap with thousand waves
Sandaconda is Pretty much the same as Zydog utility wise but it doesnt have the attacking power, rather much better bulk
Jirachi is like melmetal and togekiss, a great flincher which can support itself with its own paralysis.

these are definetly not the only ones, but the ones that are worth it to mention, there are of course other things like Fling Lightball users, Stun Spore, Nuzzle and other thunder waver, but theyre not as good as these ones i mention.

4. Screens.

Screens and HO Pairs together very well, On Luck-HO its no difference, screens can help the set-up sweepers like slowbro-g and togekiss to go to their full potential to hax, or just support the flinchers to be able to fish for riskier flinches like Scarf togekiss on a Tapu Koko.

Grimmsnarl is perfect for luck-ho, not only it has prankster screens, it also has thunder wave and taunt for extra utility.
Klefki is also great with its prankster screens, but unlike grimmsnarl it doesnt have taunt, but it does have spikes.
Koko is the standard screen setter with its fast speed, terrain, pivot and taunt, theres nothing wrong with using the standard.
Alolan-Ninetales as a whole is a great support with its aurora veil and support moves to help the other mons set-up, the advantage this has over koko is aurora veil is only one move so it can set things up midgame much easier, and it also has more support moves like encore to help the other mons set-up
Not a conventional screener, but it does have utility like thunder wave on top of its great speed which will be shown later in this post.
Im not a fan of Regieleki screens, but as the faster screener with spin and explosion, it deserves a shoutout.
Latios isnt the best, but its utility of memento on top of screens can help something set-up big time like a belly drum slowbro-g

5. General Pokemon.

Now, just because its a Luck based HO, doesnt mean everything have to rely on luck, you need some mons that can actually do things without hax, for example: Volcarona can clean up late game while being an excellent midgame offensive pivot for things like kartana, Chomp can be a great electric immunity in HO and can also sweep on its own, giving the team some more threats to look out for, Blace can be used as an immediate threat with specs or scarf.
My point is, even tho the team is build around abusing hax, it needs some support in immediate strength and support so it doesn't just lose to well-made teams.

Examples Of Luck HO Teams with Replays.

Now, last month, me and a few people have tested a bunch of Luck-HO with a lot of different builds (On high ladder), i have 3 teams to showoff by 3 different people, im going to start off with one by Vertex.
1.

Quick Claw HO by Vertex

The general idea of this team is to SPAM set-up pokemon equipped with quick claw behind veil, so that you have the BIGGEST chance to activate quick claw, 20% chance is actually a lot when every turn it can happen, there are games where this works and games where they dont, but vertex made the team so that even if you don't get the set-up move that you want, you still have a chance to win due to the strenght of the pokemon chosen and also the fact that set-up spam + screens is already good enough. You can change the members of the team of course as vertex did during his run, but everything needs to have their own utility without quick claw, but gets much better when it does.

Here are some replays highlighting the team.
vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1541296499-1paf6dqx9l0ihctgoxk1m5vuq7sgv31pw

Overview

On this battle, vertex had a bit of a tough match-up with volcarona and dnite, but they quickly get stopped by the only few quick claw activation that happen, smart strike on dnite and psyshock on volcarona. the team benefits a lot from screens to be able to set-up and quick claw to get those emergency kills, but as the game progress you can see that the team itself doesn't really need the quick claw, but the quick claw is very nice as it helps a lot with some unfortunate match-ups.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1541351834-hwhikaitx25ti4cyyyeloyuv9xpqlcvpw

Overview

On this battle, vertex had a bad match-up with Sand vs Alolan ninetales veil, but the strength of quick claw 'Quickly' shows with kartana sweeping the team after getting a few lucky activation.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1541158140-brpbnvc26q6cdtsyohoacsrs28xqfiwpw

Overview

This match once again, shows the utility of quick claw getting the revenge kill on blacephalon and dragonite, and even without those 2, so it shows that quick claw truly has something going for it.

2.

Hax Forecast Paraspam by Me :D

I made an RMT of this team last month which you can find here (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...arahax-spam-peak-1-2074-elo-85-3-gxe.3699903/) but the main idea of the team is to spam as much paralysis so that you can bruise through the team with togekiss and melmetal so in the end you can clean up with volcarona or zeraora. Its made to capitalize on the massive flinch chance of togekiss' air slash and melmetal's double iron bash by spreading as much paralysis as possible. You don't need to luck you opponent with this team because of the other 3 pokemon able to make this a more standard offense. I went more in depth about this team on my RMT, but this is the general description of the team.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1541290595-g4pu08mardf10r7f9t5vefg3ru4a20spw

Overview

On this battle, the early game i had a bit of a hiccup with melmetal getting paralyzed and knocked and ferrothorn stacking hazard, but that quickly gets remedied by togekiss able to flinch down clefable, tapu koko and ferrothorn to low health which later on in the game, Hydreigon, Volcarona and Zeraora cleaned nicely.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1542755272-qe2v7pdwhkor06gcjyrwxzx1p28zyjupw

Overview

This match TRULY shows the power of paralysis, againts bulkier teams like this one, Flinches and Paralysis can basically just sweep due to their passive playstyle making togekiss able to set-up nasty plots much easier while druddigon and melmetal almost gets paralysis freely on every pokemon, so on battles like this, theres almost no way you could fail with the combination of paralysis and hax.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538468600-2np1wd4zx74yucchp0e87glfhye2hkrpw

Overview

This match it shows the potential of the team when it hax 100% of the time, the amount of momentum you get from built up free turns from flinches and paralysis is immense.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1537603799-w4mryd8y6nv9imzy55gf9xfer7xjvi6pw

Overview

This replay shows that even when you dont get much hax, with great playing, it can still work,

3.

Glowbro + Registeel Screens HO by SetsuSetsuna

Now this team is similar to the first one in that it abuses screen + quick claw slowbro, originally made by SetsuSetsuna which you can find her RMT here (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1900-zoroark-registeel-ho-ft-gbro-and-screens-pult.3699922/) it has the combination of Screens + Glowbro (which this time is belly drum) with extra support in scarf memento zoroark, with those thing in mind it has 3 other set up sweeper in Timid Kartana, SD Garchomp and the more gimmicky but still excellent Chinese Registeel, not to mention Zoroark can play some intense mindgame on the field too.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1540312761-94kxegylj2jz61umiyol74czwndmryxpw

Overview

This game, the support of dragapult helped Kartana to break through the fat team before in the end, slowbro can safely belly drum and cleaned up the team with no problem.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1541838855

Overview

This battle is opposite from the last, Slowbro bruised the team very badly by setting up on a passive pokemon in clefable, before in the end Chinese Registeel sets up to the max and cleaned up the game.

vs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1540805954-cp9qlawtuynvljcdv9pmvyopm0nyv08pw

Overview

This game starts off with kartana with the help of curse dragapult to chip the team, before getting off a memento on melmetal and letting glowbro set up a drum and beating their fast physical sweepers, which then lets garchomp + registeel to clean the game.

CONCLUSION

Luck-HO is definetly one of the more gimmicky playstyle, in which you rely on hax to win the game, but not all luck HO team nesseceraly need hax to win, a well built team with 2 or 3 elements of hax can work greatly as in cases where you are unlucky, you can still win the game with your other Utility or Offensive pokemon. My point of this post is to spread the word that Hax/Luck-HO is actually good, viable and can be used in a serious game (which i did in a round of OU SSNL and won the game, didnt save the replay tho which i regretted). While the style is Cheesy and can be inconsistent somewhat, if the team is well made and can check threats very well it could definetly work, plus this style of team is great to counter team certain teams or style like Stall or Balance in case you are in a tournament and need to Counter Team Somebody, Anyways.

GOODBYE EVERYONE

shoutouts to Vertex and SetsuSetsuna for their contributions (also vertex used this post to ask for a qc suspect)​

This person wrote an entire college thesis to just basically say “going first with a move/pokemon that normally doesn’t is strong”, and will be let down knowing that Quick Claw likely won’t be banned until someone wins an important tournament with it.

Also, on the subject if Dry Passing, something I would support but don’t have hope for being legal, you have to consider what happens if your get intimidated, slowed down by Sticky Webs, or get a stat drop from secondary effects. It no longer is a dry pass if you use Baton Pass, as while normally bad, can also still benefit you (obviously not to the extent of passing +2 Speed to Magearna or Necrozma).
And allowing Dry Passing would not affect the Metagame as much. The highest tier Pokemon outside of Ubers with only Baton Pass are the Lati Twins, and realistically you would only see Indeedee-F use it to set up terrain and safely bring in glass cannon teammates or the likes of Pyukumuku/Shedinja/Umbreon having a tiny niche. You also could see some pivots use it to avoid Iron Barb or Life Orb damage.
So even if there were tiering action, OU would barely see any change unfortunately.

 

[Ctann]

Critical hits is another fun hax method, however there’s not many viable critical hit spammers. Only sir fetched comes to mind.. and it’s very mediocre

Personally my favourite hax is flinch, particularly:

Icicle crash
Iron head
Rock slide

A sweet 27% or 30% chance to win a game you otherwise would not have won is a very good feeling.

And it’s definitely better to play with the odds rather than against them.

Example:



Weavile can run triple axels for a 72% chance to have a 120BP move. The trade off is that it makes contact, so you’ll have to be weary dropping this nuke over the course of a game.

Weavile can also run icicle crash for a 90% chance to have a 85BP move, for approx 30% less damage. However Weavile also gets a 27% chance to hax its way past healthy Ferrothorn, buzzwole or toxapex. And it doesn’t make contact..!

Now obviously triple axels hits more benchmarks for KOs. However with a life orb, icicle crash and knock off can be “enough” to hit benchmarks against OUs bulkier Pokémon, whilst still giving a chance to flinch your way past important checks

So personally I’d take the 90% chance to hit 85BP with a 27% flinch over the 72% chance to hit 120BP and make contact. It’s much harder for your opponent to force damage with clever switch ins like Mandibuzz switches out into flame body heatran

—

To reiterate it’s definitely better to play the odds in your favour rather than against your favour . This way you’re a lot less likely to be bothered by hax!

Seriously.. if I there was a dollar for every time someone complained that their hurricane missed twice, or that they missed a hurricane on the most critical turn of the game…

Perhaps my favourite complaints are when stall players complain when you get a crit that breaks their wall. its just math that when you’re spending 20 turns healing, whilst the opponent is attacking, the crits are going to happen!!

The 27% chance to flip a game is so good, and these Pokémon are actually quite potent with or without the flinches.

Big fan of utilising hax, tho the cheese methods above are a little too “all or nothing”.

 

[H momento]

Stop me if you've heard this before, you're on your laddering session but you face Volcanion and its specs Steam Eruptions are just impossible to switch into, your Tapu Fini is fearing Sludge wave and you've even seen the Superpower Volcanion claim your Blissey. Don't even get me started about Rain Volcanion.
Well... What if I told you that there was a very viable and (In my opinion) underrated hardcounter to Volcanion? I'll be dedicating this post to... *Drum rolls*

Jellicent in SSOU ​

Now I know what you're thinking, what makes this worth using? Well I'll elaborate why in this post starting with:

1) Overview:

Jellicent @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots / Colbur Berry / Rocky Helmet (It has a lot of viable items lol)
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Strength Sap / Recover

Jellicent is a Bulky Water, nothing that we haven't heard of before. It utilizes its Water Absorb ability to be a hard counter to Water-types in Urshifu- Even with Future Sight support, and Volcanion, while being an excellent check to Barraskewda and Seismitoad, establishing Jellicent's great Match-up vs Rain teams. Strength sap lets Jellicent act as a decent check to Set-up sweepers in Garchomp and Dragonite especially in conjunction with Strength Sap. Recover allows Jellicent to check Galarian Zapdos without giving it an Attack boost being immune to Close Combat and resistant to U-turn, limiting its freedom in what it can do by a lot while also checking Melmetal and outspeeding it to Strength Sap off the Thunder Punch damage. But that's just its Defensive profile. Jellicent is unironically poses a very decent Offensive profile thanks to its WispHex antics. Will-O-Wisp cripples a myriad of walls and Hex punishes them harder, while Taunt prevents attempts to use Recovery moves, 60 Speed allows it to outspeed Standard Corviknight to taunt it. Jellicent's Will-O-Wisp aids a lot preventing a lot of Pokemon from hardswitching into it in Weavile, Kartana and so on while dealing a big amount of Chip damage to pivots like Zapdos, Tornadus-Therian, Galarian Slowking, Corviknight, Blissey and even preventing fat Defensive pokémon from healing or pivoting out in Slow triplets, Blissey and Clefable. It can run a lot of items: Leftovers for passive recovery, Heavy-Duty Boots to not take Hazard damage, Colbur Berry to lure Kartana midgrounding Knock Off and Weavile to use Will-O-Wisp on them and Rocky helmet to punish the Pokemon that U-turn on it like Urshifu and Galarian Zapdos. Jellicent matches up poorly vs. Dark-Types and Tapu Fini due to its misty terrain.

Jellicent's main place in SSOU is on Ferrothorn Spikes Stack teams, they make a great duo as Ferrothorn checks Pokemon that beat Jellicent like Weavile and Tapu Fini. Taunt, Will-O-Wisp and Hex allow Jellicent to punish/prevent Hazards from going up by Ferrothorn, Toxapex and such or defogging attempts from Corviknight or Tornadus-Therian, blanking the terrifying Shifu + Future sight Combo and hardcountering Volcanion with ease, which is very valuable for teams like these. Jellicent is also best paired with Pokemon that dish out a lot of Status. So, Volcanion, Zapdos, TankChomp or Landorus-Therian and so on make for amazing pairings. Pokemon that pressure Tapu Fini in Volcanion, Weavile and such help out Jellicent a lot late-game in posing more of a threat.

2) Other Options:
Jellicent is very underexplored in my opinion, and I feel like it could do a lot more than what I stated if it was given more of a chance. For example, Scald can let it check Heatran, and deal more damage to Blissey before taunting it. Toxic can allow Jellicent to further cripple walls like Tornadus-Therian and Zapdos and to cripple Hydreigon, but it loses out on defensive utility for doing so. Jellicent could run alternative EV spreads, like going slower to invest more into bulk or going more on the offensive with special attack investment to deal more damage with Hex.

3) Checks and (Mostly) Counters:
Jellicent generally pairs up very well vs most of the meta, but it struggles vs a lot of it too.

• Dark-Types in Tyranitar and Weavile slow down Jellicent a lot while the rare Hydreigon and Zarude completely stop it from properly dishing out damage. Dark Type moves like Knock off slow it down a lot too.
• Tapu Fini's misty terrain makes it so that Jellicent is unable to status grounded targets, making it very hard to do anything early-game.
• Electric-Types like Tapu Koko, Zeraora and Zapdos threaten out Jellicent but they have to fear the HexWisp combo, as it deals a lot of damage to them.
• Defiant Bisharp and Zapdos limit Jellicent's recovery attempts a lot, making Jellicent vulnerable to Chip damage.
• Ghost-Types turn Jellicent into free momentum, which can be troublesome.

4) Conclusion:

In my opinion, I think Jellicent deserves a spot on the Viability Rankings now that Volcanion is an established threat, so I just wanted to make this post to share what it does. I think it's a very decent Pokemon on the teams where it fits. It's strong but has a fair bit of flaws, be sure to experiment more with this Pokemon, it could have more potential. Thanks for reading my post, have a good one!

 

[Morkal]

Azelf

“Some say that anyone who injures it will become unable to perform any kind of action after seven days.”​

Azelf's Stats	Stat Range
HP: 75	260 - 354
Attack: 125	229 - 383
Defense: 70	130 - 262
Sp. Atk: 125	229 - 383
Sp. Def: 70	130 - 262
Speed: 115	211 - 361

Yet another BlackMalachite post about underrated niche picks because why not? It's not like I haven't been doing this in multiple Smogon metagame threads for years or anything (I'm sorry, my house flooded yesterday, so I'm mentally drained of the ability to make a good joke right now). In all seriousness, let's get into Azelf and how I feel it is egregiously underrated. The Pokemon that created willpower? No wonder he’s always been the coolest of the lake trio for me. He has what I lack, motivation and also a slick design. This Pokemon has been a UU mainstay for a while, but what if I told you there’s a set that allows you to catch some unexpected KOs while also providing utility for your team? Let’s take a look at a set that I've been using, along with a demonstration match replay and damage calculations (not too many, just enough to show specific matchups) to show how it works (as Azelf saved my sorry kiester even after I made some dumb blunders, allowing me to win the match). Azelf has a specific unpredictability and role compression that we will be capitalizing on here.

Physical Cleaner + Utility Azelf

Azelf @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Stealth Rock / U-Turn / Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch

(Other Physical movepool options (niche and not-so-niche, I will italicize the other move variants I have found success with) include Acrobatics, Explosion, Fire Punch, Iron Tail, Play Rough, Power-Up Punch, Psycho Cut, Thunder Punch, U-Turn, Zen Headbutt. If you don't need Stealth Rock, I recommend slotting in Zen Headbutt for STAB hits on Neutral targets or U-Turn to keep the momentum going).​

I’d like to introduce you to Physical Utility Azelf, my favorite OU set this year, and the Azelf set which produced the best results for me. Azelf has a phenomenal Attack stat of 125 (for reference, 5 points higher than Weavile) and a fantastic offensive movepool with plenty of options. In addition, Azelf is terrific as a Stealth Rock user thanks to having Levitate as an ability alongside a blistering 115 Speed, giving it 361 Speed with a Jolly nature. The goal is to set up Stealth Rock (which I don't need to explain the utility of, you all know it) and slowly creep your opponent's team into Azelf KO range. In addition, Levitate provides Azelf with an excellent Ground-type immunity that allows Azelf to get unexpected switch-in potential on Pokemon such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, etc.

Knock Off has fantastic utility on its own, and coming off of Azelf's base 125 Attack stat with 252 investment with a neutral nature, it hurts quite a bit. However, the additional utility of getting rid of an opponent's item is always helpful. Generally, Pokemon like Slowbro and Slowking-G will switch in because they're expecting a Special set / or not expecting Azelf to have robust Dark coverage with utility. These qualities help wear down many defensive cores and overwhelm the opponent's prediction abilities because Azelf has comprehensive coverage options that your opponent won't know what to expect. They think they'll have an idea of the set when they see Azelf set up Rocks, then wonder why their Slowking-G got whomped on the switch-in.

252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 322-382 (81.7 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO (assured 2HKO if you use Adamant nature)
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 322-382 (106.9 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 169-200 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 265-315 (65.5 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 406-478 (155.5 - 183.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 338-400 (106.6 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 268-317 (78.5 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drain Punch is a fantastic tool that provides almost unresisted coverage when combined with Knock Off. Drain Punch also allows Azelf to feast on Pokemon like Blissey and restore any Life Orb wear and tear over time, along with getting crucial OHKOs and 2HKOs on multiple Pokemon that can be a problem for various team archetypes.

252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 377-445 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 380-452 (94 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferrothorn: 164-195 (46.5 - 55.3%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Magnezone: 148-177 (52.4 - 62.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 416-494 (153.5 - 182.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 588-697 (209.2 - 248%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sustainability is usually a huge problem, but thanks to the built-in recovery from Drain Punch, it offsets many problems that Physical attackers often have (such as Rocky Helmet being almost everywhere). Azelf is not meant to outright KO many particular Pokemon, but it has the power and ability to do so in many situations.

Ice Punch I've found to be the most reliable additional coverage on this set because of its ability to handle specific threats that my teams don't appreciate dealing with. Offensive Ice coverage is one of the scariest things in OU right now (as Weavile has proven to all of us) and synergizes well with Azelf's other movepool options.

252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 437-515 (122.4 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 250-294 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 226-268 (70.4 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Garchomp: 380-447 (90.4 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 234-276 (61.2 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 226-268 (66.2 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Azelf Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 205-242 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Azelf Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1554284885-o2sfcc07dro6x4wjke52s4ry1rztlwcpw​

As a brief summation, I played like crap on this replay (Shocking, right? It's almost as if playing Pokemon for over 20 years has sapped my focus, or it could just be the depression doing that with all facets of my life, idk lmao), yet thanks to Azelf's solid qualities and unpredictability I was able to pull off an unexpected win. Azelf's bulk is "just" enough to live particular hits. Since Azelf has high speed (crucial against Pokemon such as Gengar) and underrated coverage picks, it was able to clean half of the opponent's team before they forfeited. Thanks to the coverage options, I set up Rocks, wore the opposing team down, and then cleaned up with Azelf's great power and speed.

Partners and Team Options for Azelf:
(Note, I will only be listing options that I have personally tested. Azelf has excellent matchups in the OU meta; however, I'll leave undiscovered matchups to discover over time! I'm not particularly eager to talk about things I haven't personally tested).

Alolan Ninetales (or whichever your preferred Aurora Veil setter is)​

Aurora Veil support is fantastic for Azelf, as it makes it a lot easier for Azelf and its meager bulk to switch in. In addition, Hail slowly wears down opposing Pokemon that don't have Leftovers or Regenerator, which aids Azelf's overall purpose of cleaning late game. In addition to this, Ninetales Fairy typing provides excellent resistance to Dark types that Azelf appreciates not having to take hits from.

Clefable​

Clefable's Unaware is fantastic for dealing with many annoying setup Pokemon that Azelf would have issues with. In addition to punishing wanton attacking from various Pokemon, Clefable's expansive movepool complements Azelf's unpredictability nicely. The two can form a synergistic dual-core that can be mutually beneficial with clerical and healing options available.

Landorus - Therian​

Landorus-T has been OU's premier glue for a long time, and there's no exception to that rule here. Having Intimidate plus a bevy of useful utility options alongside a fantastic typing and Attack stat allows Landorus-T to create opportunities for Azelf to switch in and reak havoc. (If you don't wish to run Stealth Rock on your Azelf, you can also use Landorus-T as your SR setup, freeing up Azelf to use U-Turn, STAB, or another coverage move).

Zapdos - Galar​

Probably my favorite partner for Azelf. Resisting Dark and Bug-type attacks is something that Zapdos-G excels at, alongside a fantastic offensive typing, solid movepool, and the remarkable ability Defiant. Punish those who use Defog; feel free to set up or plow through the opposing team at your leisure.

Conclusion​

Azelf is a frail but extremely varied Pokemon with fantastic attacking stats, an awesome movepool, a very usable ability, and an excellent speed tier. I urge you to give Azelf a try; I promise you won't be disappointed. Even if you don't want to use the Physical set, Azelf's options are numerous and plentiful. You could run an entirely Utility focused set with something like Stealth Rock, Knock Off, U-Turn, and Taunt. (Azelf also has Trick, Thunder Wave, and Toxic). You could run a Special set as Azelf gets neat Special coverage options such as Flamethrower, Energy Ball, Dazzling Gleam, and Thunderbolt, along with its built-in STAB (however, Azelf misses having Fighting / Ice coverage on its Special sets). The sky is the limit with Azelf, who I consider one of the most underutilized and underrated Pokemon ever since its original Gen 4 heydey ended.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

I'm going to preface this by saying that despite me playing Showdown for a couple of years to varying degrees of investment, I am still new to the Smogon forums as a user and my opinions may or may not reflect that side of meta-discussion, since I've really only read what OTHERS have to say.

Despite CB Beat Up now being something that people legitimately expect and "prep" for, I still think that Weavile deserves a suspect test (in due time, probably not right now) to fully gauge its impact on the meta and whether or not the effect it's had on teambuilding and viable strategies is healthy or competitive. When the current best mon (though arguable) in the meta is an offensive powerhouse, that's kind of inevitable. Though the main argument against it being tested is literally just that it isn't overwhelming yet, I feel like a suspect test could just... clear that up? If the general consensus comes down to it not being ban-worthy, then no harm no foul. It's interesting that in the past month the narrative of SS OU has gone from "this is potentially the best modern OU gen" to "this gen is so unhealthy it's not even funny", mostly due to Weavile just continuing to get better and better and always have the last laugh against its supposed checks.

 

[Moyashi]

Despite CB Beat Up now being something that people legitimately expect and "prep" for, I still think that Weavile deserves a suspect test (in due time, probably not right now) to fully gauge its impact on the meta and whether or not the effect it's had on teambuilding and viable strategies is healthy or competitive. When the current best mon (though arguable) in the meta is an offensive powerhouse, that's kind of inevitable. Though the main argument against it being tested is literally just that it isn't overwhelming yet, I feel like a suspect test could just... clear that up? If the general consensus comes down to it not being ban-worthy, then no harm no foul. It's interesting that in the past month the narrative of SS OU has gone from "this is potentially the best modern OU gen" to "this gen is so unhealthy it's not even funny", mostly due to Weavile just continuing to get better and better and always have the last laugh against its supposed checks.

I'm not sure if we're quite there yet regarding Weavile, it can be hard to tell sometimes. After all it's not as straight a case as compared to a Mon like Pheramosa or Cinderace. But I do think it's treading on thin ice (teehee) right now. I've been noticing a greater uptick in rocky helmet spam lately, not even just on standard mons that you typically use it on (those being Corviknight, Slowbro, Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and of course Buzzwole). Garchomp too although it isn't odd on its own, but the loss of leftovers is noticable in some key match ups.

Tapu Fini (no leftovers), Tapu Koko (why even), and stuff like rocky helmet LandoT which feels like such a waste of a defensive pivot when it drops leftovers. Also a lot of miscellaneous mons running it. My issue is that this isn't a long term stop to Weavile since it can knock the helmets off, but also helmet does nothing to Banded Beat Up sets.

Speaking of Banded Beat Up, with how it's backed by Weavile's excellent speed tier, it's almost unfairly easy to push massive early damage and limits the mons who can check it comfortably. Many lack longevity and the few that have it are afraid of its secondary stab. I can't 100% say right now if it's problematic to the point of needing action but I can say that the proliferation of banded beat up in addition to its many other sets has made me enjoy OU quite a bit less than I had been since Kyurem's ban.

 

[Endrism]

I'm not sure if we're quite there yet regarding Weavile, it can be hard to tell sometimes. After all it's not as straight a case as compared to a Mon like Pheramosa or Cinderace.

Isn't that the exact point of a suspect test though? I think we've been too hesitant to start a suspect test when the whole point of a suspect is gauging the opinion on a mon people think "might" be too much but aren't sure. When everyone knows a mon is too much thats called a quickban which Weavile is extremely far from. Weavile has started the use of Colbro and Flame Body Tran. When you force tran to get rid of its god tier ability in favor of stopping Weavile you know its a threat. (granted its not just for Weavile, but it was a factor, you get the point.)

I am in full support of a suspect test of Weavile. Even though if it came down to it, I'd probably lean for it to not even be banned, I feel like a suspect is necessary at this point to truly put it to bed.

I feel like people have slept big time on one of Weavile's biggest stops and an offensive monster.



Why has this thing fallen out of favor? It can swap in on most Weavile's sets. It absolutely bodies Tran and Lando, and Dragapult really doesn't like taking banded strikes. It is the true anti-meta pick rn. When paired with a good electric like Tapu Koko and maybe some FuturePort shenanigans this thing can be absolutely frustrating to fight, and really fun to play with because once you pivot against the right mon into Splashifu, something is bound to drop. Outspeeds Tapu Lele and can apply massive pressure to the 95 crew. Banded CC is so incredibly threatening, and it has coverage in Thunder Punch or Speed Control with Aqua Jet while pivoting back and forth with Bro using U-turn and Bros Teleport. It absolutely still struggles with Bulky Waters like Fini and Pex, but that's what a good core partner is for.

 

[Dirkhann]

Isn't that the exact point of a suspect test though? I think we've been too hesitant to start a suspect test when the whole point of a suspect is gauging the opinion on a mon people think "might" be too much but aren't sure. When everyone knows a mon is too much thats called a quickban which Weavile is extremely far from. Weavile has started the use of Colbro and Flame Body Tran. When you force tran to get rid of its god tier ability in favor of stopping Weavile you know its a threat. (granted its not just for Weavile, but it was a factor, you get the point.)

I am in full support of a suspect test of Weavile. Even though if it came down to it, I'd probably lean for it to not even be banned, I feel like a suspect is necessary at this point to truly put it to bed.

I feel like people have slept big time on one of Weavile's biggest stops and an offensive monster.



Why has this thing fallen out of favor? It can swap in on most Weavile's sets. It absolutely bodies Tran and Lando, and Dragapult really doesn't like taking banded strikes. It is the true anti-meta pick rn. When paired with a good electric like Tapu Koko and maybe some FuturePort shenanigans this thing can be absolutely frustrating to fight, and really fun to play with because once you pivot against the right mon into Splashifu, something is bound to drop. Outspeeds Tapu Lele and can apply massive pressure to the 95 crew. Banded CC is so incredibly threatening, and it has coverage in Thunder Punch or Speed Control with Aqua Jet while pivoting back and forth with Bro using U-turn and Bros Teleport. It absolutely still struggles with Bulky Waters like Fini and Pex, but that's what a good core partner is for.

To be honest at this point most "suspect tests" feel like a mere formality, before the mon in question gets the boot. Look at all the previous suspect tests during Gen 8 OU, every single one of them ended up with an overwhelming pro ban majority. Granted mons like Ace and Mag were very obviously broken , but you get the point. If a suspect test for Weav were to happen i'd try and get reqs to vote no ban, since I feel there's enough counterplay for it and you can have solid checks while still using good pokemon, instead of resorting to fringe options. Maybe i'm a bit biased since i generally lean towards more offensive teams but ye that's my take on it.

 

[Moyashi]

Isn't that the exact point of a suspect test though? I think we've been too hesitant to start a suspect test when the whole point of a suspect is gauging the opinion on a mon people think "might" be too much but aren't sure.

I dunno. Maybe it is too hesitant but it still feels a little early and I'd hate to suspect it and it not get banned, only to keep growing more and more after that and get worse to deal with. Especially as people are still doing new stuff with it.

Weavile has started the use of Colbro and Flame Body Tran. When you force tran to get rid of its god tier ability in favor of stopping Weavile you know its a threat. (granted its not just

Oh yeah that's the other thing that has been bugging me with Weavile. Colbur Bro isnt a bad set but it feels a lot less useful now with banded beat up everywhere, so often it feels better to run rocky helmet.

Why has this thing fallen out of favor? It can swap in on most Weavile's sets. It absolutely bodies Tran and Lando, and Dragapult really doesn't like taking banded strikes. It is the true anti-meta pick rn. When paired with a good electric like Tapu Koko and maybe some FuturePort shenanigans this thing can be absolutely frustrating to fight, and really fun to play with because once you pivot against the right mon into Splashifu, something is bound to drop. Outspeeds Tapu Lele and can apply massive pressure to the 95 crew. Banded CC is so incredibly threatening, and it has coverage in Thunder Punch or Speed Control with Aqua Jet while pivoting back and forth with Bro using U-turn and Bros Teleport. It

For the record I do think urshifu is still a fins mon, but it certainly doesn't love all the rocky helmet usage in response to Weavile. Which given the propensity for being worn down, it does limit it. It also struggles with Buzzwole to an extent since all but surging strikes is resisted or does negligible damage and surging strikes causes it to take huge chip damage). That rocky helm usage also is common on the bulky waters which further hurts it.

I think it has some room for experimentation but as far as being a Weavile stop, I dunno. It takes a huge chunk from banded knock off and gets put into range of being 2HKOd on the switch by triple axel or beat up next time it tries to switch in. And SD sets can still pick it off it it falls low enough.

To be honest at this point most "suspect tests" feel like a mere formality, before the mon in question gets the boot. Look at all the previous suspect tests during Gen 8 OU, every single one of them ended up with an overwhelming pro ban majority. Granted mons like Ace and Mag were very obviously broken , but you get the point.

While some suspects can feel like a formality it is still good to do them so the community can get involved and really voice their opinions. And sometimes you may see people's opinions change. The ZamaC test is a good example. Early on many people didn't find it that crazy and thought it was fine. But over time as the meta changed around it, so did opinions and people found it an unhealthy presence. This also happened with one of UU's suspects of Aegislash earlier this gen where people thought it would be overpowered but gradually grew through the test to think otherwise.

If a suspect test for Weav were to happen i'd try and get reqs to vote no ban, since I feel there's enough counterplay for it and you can have solid checks while still using good pokemon, instead of resorting to fringe options. Maybe i'm a bit biased since i generally lean towards more offensive teams but ye that's my take on it.

Sure you don't have to dig deep into lower tiers to check it (not that anything from there realistically could and also be good), but in this case the issue some people have is its ability to get around its supposed checks. It's als9 still naturally good against offense which doesn't entirely love dealing with it either.

 

[Ctann]

Two things I wanted to ask for thoughts on:



Does anybody else think heatran is just too good in OU. Checks so much and is so effective at doing what it does.

The x4 resists are plentiful, it has the best move in the game, in magma storm, and it can optimise its EVs/set in so many ways to pull off its moves.

It completely invalidates fringe ice/grass/fairy/bug/steel/fire/poison Pokémon’s that don’t have decent coverage options. The best example is Volcarona, however there are some fringe OU picks too, like roserade and togekiss!

It’s defensive or offensive sets both put massive pressure on counterplay, simply because slower Pokémon hate being trapped, faster Pokémon hate tanking 100 BP stab moves from a massive base SpA

It’s relatively easy to keen a heatran healthy, as almost everything it checks, it checks very reliably and without taking much damage.



Thoughts on whimsicott in OU?

- Utility moves
- can be high speed , high SpA dragon slayer, or;
- can be highly defense invested pivot, that takes advantage of prankster to disrupt teams and force switches

Here’s a cool replay to show how useful it can be, including high risk plays like switching it into a nine tails

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1557335815-ehd63u6gg4x5lk1vi961weou7byfg36pw

Here’s a replay that shows the unpredictability of whimsicott means that you’ll be getting replies like “how does sacking torn make sense”. More importantly, the opponent didn’t try and scout the energy ball earlier in the match, costing the game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1557407222

You can see in the final turns of that battle, I risked tornadus, as a 100% accurate moonblast is better than a 70% hurricane!


PS,



As an addition to the hax discussion before, here’s a fun replay of double rock slide flinch winning games!!

Warning: you will get called a fucking noob

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1557345460

 

[Eeveeto]

Short opinions about the recent postings.

Whimsi: The one thing it has done for me we'll enough is being a Tailwind setter. You do need very specific team to abuse that though (Crawdaunt, Heracross, etc.) otherwise Tapu Bulu and Shiinotic tend to be better (through also niche).

Heatran: For me, this has been a banworthy Mon in all Gens except in BW. Offensive teams do fine enough vs it (Chomp, Fini, Watershifu, Rain, etc.), however bulky and slow ones struggle a lot. Magma Storm + Taunt + Toxic combo is very oppressive and unless Shed Shell is used, scouting without losing a Mon is hard. Of course, bulky slow teams have more problems than just Tran, however, but vs other Wallbreakers and Stallbreakers scouting is way easier, since they don't have a high BP Stab Move that traps. The only thing that sort of balances it is Magma Storm accuracy and PPs, however I still think Heatran adds nothing positive to the Tier and that offense and balance already have enough Stallbreaker options without him. I have been voting against Heatran in every OU survey and plan to continue doing so.

Weavile: Here the opposite thing happens. It's good vs offense, not so good vs balance or Stall. Since Offense is what currently dominates, Weavile looks even better. However, despite more creative sets appearing, even offense has enough tools vs Weavile (Fini, Buzzwole, Blaziken, Watershifu, weather teams in general, etc.) and I don't think this Mon is even remotely broken. What I do consider broken is Knock Off as move, but Weavile is just one of the 475257 abussers the move has. Like with Stealth Rock, I think the main problem with Knock Off is the huge distribution it has, it's very hard to bring absorbers for all of them just like it's very hard to cover all Rockers with Hazard control. I doubt something will be done with the 2 moves ( in fact, I see way more often people complaining with Boots, which is the only thing that tries to alleviate the Rocks domination), this are just my thoughts.

Watershifu: The kind of Mon that is useless in my hands but then kills half of the team when it's the opponent who uses it. Maybe it's a Mon designed for the most skilled players? The problem it has is the item choice: it deals not enough damage with Pads and it eats all the Helmets and contact abilities with Band. The solution seems to be using Hazards + lots of Knock. As a Weavile check it's very good in offensive teams, as a Mon in general I find it quite hard to use. And no, I don't consider it broken in the slightest.

Lando-T: What I am hearing here and especially in the VR thread is that he is not as good as he used to be, that nowadays Weavile is better, or Ferro, or Heatran, etc. Well, I completely disagree with this statement, for me Lando-T is still way above any other OU Mon. Yes, people adapt to it, by running Ice and Water Mons, or Buzzwole, or Galardos, or random Toxic coverage. Yet, he still has much more usage than a of them, both in ladder and in Tournaments play. This is because of a key measure: Splashability. From the wildest HO to the most passive Stall, Lando-T is Mon that can fit on any style and on almost any team. Broken as Heatran or Lele might be, they can't do the same. Neither can Ferro or Weavile, the only Mon that even comes close is Tornadus-T (probably the second best Mon in consequence). Lando has a great typing, the legendary status naturally gives him good Stats, Intimidate is good vs every physical attacker except Bisharp and Zapdos, and the movepool is wide, having access to some of the best universal Moves: Rocks, Defog, U-Turn, Knock Off, STAB EQ ( which hits 5 types), only lacking reliable recovery (though Rest Lando is viable on some teams), reliable Flying STAB ( even then, some Buzzwoles occasionally die from Power Herb Fly) and Scald to have a fully perfect movepool. For every team, there is a Lando set that can provide something and in 95% of battles this Mon won't be useful, prepared as might be the opponent for it. Lando completely dominates the OU Meta, and I would be calling for a Suspect if I didn't consider several things (Lele, Tran, Knock Off, Rocks, Scald , sometimes Chomp and Mew) to be more unhealthy than it.

This are my opinions that I don't try to impose to others, hopefully you enjoyed the post. Kinda a wishlist, but I hope that Gen 9 does 2 things:
1. Dexit, especially among the legends, who have very high Stats. DLC1 Meta was way better than any of the DLC2 ones.
2. Disallow transfer between Gens or at least make some kind of restriction to prevent transfer a Mon with moves it can't learn in Gen 9. Some Mons have gotten very vast movepool rolling from Gen to Gen, and I personally don't like it. Rocks should be learnt by Rock Mons and a few more, Knock Off should have proportionally the same distribution as in Adv, Toxic should not be learnt by all Mons except Galar ones.

 

[Ctann]

Eeveeto can strongly agree that it feels like heatran and lele are the most problematic Pokémon in OU.

Lele has too much stats and the typing/movepool are just too intense. Lele isn’t a big threat like heatran, but it’s by far too intense overall. I think if lele had 10 more speed it would have been banned months ago. Meanwhile if it had literally 10 less defense, SpA, or HP, it would be substantially less pressuring on the meta.

The overturned moves like knock off, scald, moonblast, etc, do not seem anywhere near as harmful. They’re just very good moves which have made some types significantly better than others, but that’s the way GF rolls …

Weavile is great, but it feels like the metagame just needed to adapt to it. It’s kind of like how people were banging on about future sight + regenerator being broken before, and now the metagame has finally figured out how to play against future sight. There’s lots of tricks to do it. It’s the same with playing against knock off and Weavile in general.

—



Okay… so since knock off is quite a good move, and quite common. Here’s a fun way to play against it:

Weavile @ Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Pickpocket

Step 1: have a team that encourages the opponent to use knock off in approx the mid-game to end game (example: running any slow twin variant).

Step 2: Simply switch into a predicted knock off from the banded threat, such as Kartana or Weavile. Pickpocket means you steal the band.

Step 3: KO back with your own knock off, sweeping through the rest of the team and ending the battle. Of course this assumes the opponent has taken some chip damage. Kartana needs to be under approx 75% and Weavile needs to have taken stealth rocks damage twice or SR damage + sandstorm/helmet damage earlier in the battle. If the opponent is banded, chances are it had to come out earlier in the battle to start pressuring your team, so if you can squeeze out any damage on it then.. do so!

—

Best thing gen 9 can do is introduce some mechanics to reduce the viability of PP stalling, recover/softboiled/wish stalling and toxic stalling!

 

[5camp]

2. Disallow transfer between Gens or at least make some kind of restriction to prevent transfer a Mon with moves it can't learn in Gen 9. Some Mons have gotten very vast movepool rolling from Gen to Gen, and I personally don't like it. Rocks should be learnt by Rock Mons and a few more, Knock Off should have proportionally the same distribution as in Adv, Toxic should not be learnt by all Mons except Galar ones.

Just want to chime in on this final point and say: This is already a feature in the games themselves. You can't take a Pokemon online if they have a move they don't learn in this generation. This includes the widespread distribution of Toxic and Knock Off.

There is nothing stopping Smogon from implementing the rules Gamefreak themselves have codified. Nothing, that is, apart from widespread revolt when mons suddenly lose vital moves that forms core parts of their viability.

 

[658Greninja]

Got a few opinions on these.

I feel like banning Tran would be like bringing a keystone species to extinction. Its just too important in the metagame offensively and defensively. Its one of the few mons that has defensive utility while being able to force progress via Magma Storm and/or Toxic. It checks the dangerous Lele, Pult, and Blace all while being able to potentially set up rocks. One of the things keeps Tran from being too much for the tier is its 4mss. It wants Toxic so it can hit Washtom/Gastro/Dnite, but its sometimes the team’s rocker, or the team wants Heavy Slam so it check CM Clef. Tran’s main targets (Clef, Ferro, etc) can always cripple Tran p badly, either removing lefties or T-Waving it. Now all of the sudden Tran can get 1v1’d by Clef. Overall, there is a reason why Tran is a Top 3 mon, but I do not see it as suspect worthy.

In contrast, if someone had me on gunpoint and told me to answer which mon is the most suspect worthy, its Weavile.

Weavile has the biggest strain on teambuilding rn. The fact you have to account for both Boots SD AND Band Beat Up wouldn’t be a problem if one wasn’t more polarizing than the other. Beat Up forces you to run cores like Ferro/Clef or Clef/Pex or run Buzzwole just so it doesn’t murk something when it comes in. Even with Buzzwole, it gets 2HKOd by Band Taxel, and that is with Jolly.

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 174-207 (49 - 58.3%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The others like Urshifu and Fini just get Knock’d and worn down by hazards. The closest mon to a Weavile counter (Pex), gets 2HKOd by Beat Up, meaning it is forced to swap out to a dark-resist, which can be taken advantage of by its many teammates. Basically the Urshifu situation all over again.

We have reached a point to where teams need at least two answers to Weavile. I would’ve said different a month ago, but with Band popping off more and more, I think a suspect test might be needed to determine if Weavile is too much for the tier. Or ban Beat Up

“Just Use Buzzwole” https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1553727320

I don’t agree with Eeveeto’s thoughts on Lando as the definitive best mon in the tier. It is obviously one of the best mons in the tier cuz “splashability” but when it comes to who has defined the meta the most, its Weav/Tran. It does not have reliable flying stab if its only form of it is Fly. SD Lando has been seen more frequently. I still like Smack Down on Rocks Lando as it gives me free rocks vs stall. The added utility of 2HKOing Volcarona and immediately threatening also helps.

Lele is obviously one of the best breakers in the tier, however I disagree with it being too much for the tier. For one big reason.

Lack of Defensive Utility: If we look at the shit that was banned (Urshifu-SS, Kyu, and Magearna) a common theme with these three breakers is that they got the bulk and typing to not rly on pivots or sacks to bring them in. The fact that they can come in multiple times in a game means they are more likely to break a hole. Plus, Urshifu has Sucker + Unseen Fists, Kyu has Roost, and Mag has Volt Switch, Trick, and the snowbally effect of Soul Heart. This is what pushes them over the edge. Lele isn’t frail, but its defensive typing doesn’t offer it that many switch ins. Plus trends like SpD Bro and Tect on Stall means Lele has a more difficult time opening a hole.

As for the future of Gen 9.

Whatever move distribution happens is all in the hands of GF. What I can propose however is having two OU ladder. Home ladder and Pre-Home ladder. I know more people are going to lean towards the former since it will be the main format, but a Pre-Home ladder can work for those who prefer less Knock/Toxic in the meta. As for potential buffs/nerfs, I have some wishes.

-Tone down Regen. Maybe instead of 1/3rd of the user’s HP, it should be 1/4th.

-Nerf Scald. Either bring it to 20% or nerf the dmg/pp of the move. The same can be applied to Plume/Discharge. Maybe even make it 90% acc like what happened with T-Wave.

-Nerf Static/Flame Body/Poison Point. Also bring it down to 20%.

-Give Ice some actual fucking resistances. We need “cooler” water resists, maybe even a fairy resist

I considered Knock Off, but honestly, Gen 8 Knock has mostly been just a necessary evil of it all.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

Got a few opinions on these.

I feel like banning Tran would be like bringing a keystone species to extinction. Its just too important in the metagame offensively and defensively. Its one of the few mons that has defensive utility while being able to force progress via Magma Storm and/or Toxic. It checks the dangerous Lele, Pult, and Blace all while being able to potentially set up rocks. One of the things keeps Tran from being too much for the tier is its 4mss. It wants Toxic so it can hit Washtom/Gastro/Dnite, but its sometimes the team’s rocker, or the team wants Heavy Slam so it check CM Clef. Tran’s main targets (Clef, Ferro, etc) can always cripple Tran p badly, either removing lefties or T-Waving it. Now all of the sudden Tran can get 1v1’d by Clef. Overall, there is a reason why Tran is a Top 3 mon, but I do not see it as suspect worthy.

In contrast, if someone had me on gunpoint and told me to answer which mon is the most suspect worthy, its Weavile.

Weavile has the biggest strain on teambuilding rn. The fact you have to account for both Boots SD AND Band Beat Up wouldn’t be a problem if one wasn’t more polarizing than the other. Beat Up forces you to run cores like Ferro/Clef or Clef/Pex or run Buzzwole just so it doesn’t murk something when it comes in. Even with Buzzwole, it gets 2HKOd by Band Taxel, and that is with Jolly.

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 174-207 (49 - 58.3%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The others like Urshifu and Fini just get Knock’d and worn down by hazards. The closest mon to a Weavile counter (Pex), gets 2HKOd by Beat Up, meaning it is forced to swap out to a dark-resist, which can be taken advantage of by its many teammates. Basically the Urshifu situation all over again.

We have reached a point to where teams need at least two answers to Weavile. I would’ve said different a month ago, but with Band popping off more and more, I think a suspect test might be needed to determine if Weavile is too much for the tier. Or ban Beat Up

“Just Use Buzzwole” https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1553727320

I don’t agree with Eeveeto’s thoughts on Lando as the definitive best mon in the tier. It is obviously one of the best mons in the tier cuz “splashability” but when it comes to who has defined the meta the most, its Weav/Tran. It does not have reliable flying stab if its only form of it is Fly. SD Lando has been seen more frequently. I still like Smack Down on Rocks Lando as it gives me free rocks vs stall. The added utility of 2HKOing Volcarona and immediately threatening also helps.

Lele is obviously one of the best breakers in the tier, however I disagree with it being too much for the tier. For one big reason.

Lack of Defensive Utility: If we look at the shit that was banned (Urshifu-SS, Kyu, and Magearna) a common theme with these three breakers is that they got the bulk and typing to not rly on pivots or sacks to bring them in. The fact that they can come in multiple times in a game means they are more likely to break a hole. Plus, Urshifu has Sucker + Unseen Fists, Kyu has Roost, and Mag has Volt Switch, Trick, and the snowbally effect of Soul Heart. This is what pushes them over the edge. Lele isn’t frail, but its defensive typing doesn’t offer it that many switch ins. Plus trends like SpD Bro and Tect on Stall means Lele has a more difficult time opening a hole.

As for the future of Gen 9.

Whatever move distribution happens is all in the hands of GF. What I can propose however is having two OU ladder. Home ladder and Pre-Home ladder. I know more people are going to lean towards the former since it will be the main format, but a Pre-Home ladder can work for those who prefer less Knock/Toxic in the meta. As for potential buffs/nerfs, I have some wishes.

-Tone down Regen. Maybe instead of 1/3rd of the user’s HP, it should be 1/4th.

-Nerf Scald. Either bring it to 20% or nerf the dmg/pp of the move. The same can be applied to Plume/Discharge. Maybe even make it 90% acc like what happened with T-Wave.

-Nerf Static/Flame Body/Poison Point. Also bring it down to 20%.

-Give Ice some actual fucking resistances. We need “cooler” water resists, maybe even a fairy resist

I considered Knock Off, but honestly, Gen 8 Knock has mostly been just a necessary evil of it all.

Regen is basically irrelevant in VGC which is 95% of what chooses to nerf or buff things on so I'm going to safely assume, along with the annoying 80BP 30% status moves, that they do not care. That being said, stuff like Toxapex's design annoys me because giving an ability like that to a wall with almost subzero offensive presence is just way too on the nose, and I think it's cool when mons like Mienshao, Reuniclus, or Ho-Oh get it (conceptually speaking)

One thing that I find really interesting about the recent Weavile revolt is that it's made me really wonder what exactly this thing is checking or if its contributions to the current meta are even a net positive given the immense strain it's been having on teambuilding. This is something that other people should of course chime in about, but all I'm really getting is that it's nice to have competitively relevant ice STAB for mons that are checked by it and it's convenient to have your wallbreaker and speed control be in the same slot??? I'm not acting like the removal of this thing would finally put an end to rocky helmet spam and the nuisance that is Buzzwole (cause I don't think it would), but I don't think it would cause a massive upheaval unlike banning Tran (who I think should 100% stay and the arguments for banning it are dubious at best)

 

[Ctann]

Okay so I thought I’d articulate the rationale behind lele over Weavile as a problem for OU, as opposed to as a threat in OU, a little better.

Lele has two high powered STABs with no drawback, I believe the highest power no drawback STAB pair in OU. It’s main coverage move is a 120BP with 30% miss drawback, and it sometimes runs shadow ball or an electric move too. There is not many efficient ways to deal with stopping it from doing what it needs to do.

It’s just somewhat easily beaten by running a mix of bulky mons + regenerator or steel types. And there’s no shortage of very viable steel types or regenerator Pokémon with high defensive stats as it is, so it becomes more “manageable”.

However lele kind of forces this “steel stacking” or otherwise running a very bulky mixed team + regenerator thing almost on its own. This is what I’m arguing is not good about it in OU.

You can argue that Eleki “forces” ground types or electrical immunity on every team… however it’s also arguable that Koko and Zera, whilst less extreme, are also speed control electrics that will threaten to simply clean up or spam volt switch.

Now, where lele is linked to Weavile is that Weavile doesn’t have risk free high STAB outside of knock off. Icicle crash and triple axels are both great moves, and conveniently resisted by steel types, however knock off is not.

This leads to an environment where Weavile conveniently can end a game no matter what, because steels are not a reliable counter, they’re just checks (due to steel not resisting dark). And the fact that most regenerator moms outside of toxapex dislike Weavile too.

People seem to be upset at Weavile (the red herring) because their bulky steel types and/or regenerator + bulk teams cannot handle Weavile, instead of at the fact that they’re forced to run those teams in the first place!!

Weavile has always historically been checked by generally bulky Pokémon. There is no such thing for lele. Lele is unprecedented. It can control game flow in ways other Pokémon cannot, mostly due to the STABs and terrain. You can make some really high risk plays with lele and get rewarded for it.

Unlike heatran, who cannot be stopped from doing its thing, just somewhat diluted with over-preparedness, Weavile also has few opportunities to come in throughout a game. Therefore, as any experienced player can attest to, this means that there are techniques you can use in battle to make it hard for it to get space, unless you opponent takes high risk high reward plays.

The removal of lele will also improve the viability of crawdaunt, Bisharp, scizor and Conkeldurr. Yes I did just mention scizor there, because bulky punch is so important for its viability. All of these are natural checks to Weavile. I am sure there are so many other Pokémon’s sitting just on the fringe of OU that will immediately gain viability if lele was to go.

Heatran is another case, it’s literally just too good and I’m super in favour of testing it at the very least. If people think the meta will be too different without heatran, why not test it? It’s possibly the best Pokémon in OU right now for doing what it needs to do.

-

On the topic of

Toxapex is an interesting Pokémon. It’s unique in that it has literally everything it needs to be annoying:

• not item dependent, losing its item doesn’t affect it at all
• high defenses on both sides
• regenerator
• recovery
• knock off / scald to be annoying
• haze to make it harder to break
• toxic immune

Lol being walled by toxapex makes a Pokémon completely unviable. Being walled by another defensive behemoth like buzzwole doesn’t make a Pokémon completely unviable.

 

[Moyashi]

However lele kind of forces this “steel stacking” or otherwise running a very bulky mixed team + regenerator thing almost on its own. This is what I’m arguing is not good about it in OU.

While it may be true that Lele does require a hard check and a slightly softer check to be extra safe, it's influence is not restricting in the may other Pokemon have been in the past. Playing against it is a matter of positioning as well as not letting your checks get worn down to the point they can't check it. Scarf sets are great clean up tools and speed control while specs are immaculate wallbreakers. Both have their ups and downs but are not broken or unreasonable to handle.

Lele doesn't have risk free attacks when it's so dependant on choice items. If it predicts wrong and gets stuck on a move it doesn't want to be on, it can be taken advantage of. It has consistent, splashable checks that aren't perfect and can be overwhelmed by strong playing and building, but they work quite well enough. Weavile lacks consistent counterplay compared to Lele as it varies depending on the set. As 658Greninja pointed out.

The fact you have to account for both Boots SD AND Band Beat Up wouldn’t be a problem if one wasn’t more polarizing than the other. Beat Up forces you to run cores like Ferro/Clef or Clef/Pex or run Buzzwole just so it doesn’t murk something when it comes in. Even with Buzzwole, it gets it gets 2HKOd by Band Taxel, and that is with Jolly.

The polarizing nature of its band set as well as the continued excellence of its standard set makes checking it very challenging. The two sets it mainly runs have very few different counterplay. Which puts a nasty strain on team building as if sometimes feel you choose which set to struggle vs.

People seem to be upset at Weavile (the red herring) because their bulky steel types and/or regenerator + bulk teams cannot handle Weavile, instead of at the fact that they’re forced to run those teams in the first place!

These cores are ran because they are reliable and generally check a large amount of threats in a couple slots. It's why we use them. We're not forced to.

Weavile also has few opportunities to come in throughout a game. Therefore, as any experienced player can attest to, this means that there are techniques you can use in battle to make it hard for it to get space, unless you opponent takes high risk high reward plays

This is not true. Weavile's so reliable BECAUSE it's easy to get it in due to how many mons it threatens and the multitude of pivoting moves in the tier on reliable staples. It's not hard to use and has been absolutely one of the most excellent and consistently performing Pokemon in the tier. It's immense versatility also means it can beat supposed checks with unexpected sets. And people are still coming up with new tech.

I especially wanna touch on this

The removal of lele will also improve the viability of crawdaunt, Bisharp, scizor and Conkeldurr. Yes I did just mention scizor there, because bulky punch is so important for its viability. All of these are natural checks to Weavile. I am sure there are so many other Pokémon’s sitting just on the fringe of OU that will immediately gain viability if lele was to go.

Crawdaunt, Bisharp, Conkeldurr and especially Scizor will not suddenly get more splashable or all that much more viable if Lele were to go. They have a ton of problems beyond it. Crawdaunt is hard to fit on teams as It's immensely slow and frail. Bisharp has a hard time justifying its spot on many teams due to strong competition and its minimal defensive utility. Conk is just too slow and abusable by the many faster threats in the tier and there are too many walls to it. Scizor itself simply flops against bulky teams and its bulky sets are just bad and passive.

 

[Ctann]

Moyashi so you’re saying Weavile naturally feasts on the current popular Pokémon, hence an easier time to get in and wreak havoc?

Well that’s kinda what makes it one of the best right now, it’s viability is through the roof

My argument is that if people could have more flexibility with team building, Weavile wouldn’t be as much of a predator. It’s good predominately because of the meta conditions right now making it good. to me it just doesn’t exude the same problem as heatran and Lele do. You can at least punish contact moves and run checks to it.

There are two main viable ways that come to mind for a team to reliably beat lele. And just because these techniques are highly effective at stopping lele, it doesn’t stop the fact that lele can be overbearing for OU. Besting Weavile can be done more reliably if the metagame had more flexibility with team building. Imagine lele wasn’t in OU, and then introduced like zamazenta was. How different would the before and after look like?

Also please note by me saying that the viability of crawdaunt, Bisharp, Conkeldurr and scizor would improve, I am by no means implying they will become metagame staples and top tier dominant threats as you seemed to suggest. We all understand their flaws.

 

[agentkeval]

aight after seeing SetsuSetsuna flex gbro replays in OU chat to prove a point, i've come to the conclusion that this shit SUCKS. how u goin have a mon relying on like 50% luck to win bruh. u banned sand veil and not quick claw at least? even in the 1900s-2000s i see some rando hop on the gbro train for 2 games and hax the shit out of me. lets talk competitive... this item is deadass luck based bruh. not even a side affect or anything, the point is just luck.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

Okay so I thought I’d articulate the rationale behind lele over Weavile as a problem for OU, as opposed to as a threat in OU, a little better.

Lele has two high powered STABs with no drawback, I believe the highest power no drawback STAB pair in OU. It’s main coverage move is a 120BP with 30% miss drawback, and it sometimes runs shadow ball or an electric move too. There is not many efficient ways to deal with stopping it from doing what it needs to do.

It’s just somewhat easily beaten by running a mix of bulky mons + regenerator or steel types. And there’s no shortage of very viable steel types or regenerator Pokémon with high defensive stats as it is, so it becomes more “manageable”.

However lele kind of forces this “steel stacking” or otherwise running a very bulky mixed team + regenerator thing almost on its own. This is what I’m arguing is not good about it in OU.

You can argue that Eleki “forces” ground types or electrical immunity on every team… however it’s also arguable that Koko and Zera, whilst less extreme, are also speed control electrics that will threaten to simply clean up or spam volt switch.

Now, where lele is linked to Weavile is that Weavile doesn’t have risk free high STAB outside of knock off. Icicle crash and triple axels are both great moves, and conveniently resisted by steel types, however knock off is not.

This leads to an environment where Weavile conveniently can end a game no matter what, because steels are not a reliable counter, they’re just checks (due to steel not resisting dark). And the fact that most regenerator moms outside of toxapex dislike Weavile too.

People seem to be upset at Weavile (the red herring) because their bulky steel types and/or regenerator + bulk teams cannot handle Weavile, instead of at the fact that they’re forced to run those teams in the first place!!

Weavile has always historically been checked by generally bulky Pokémon. There is no such thing for lele. Lele is unprecedented. It can control game flow in ways other Pokémon cannot, mostly due to the STABs and terrain. You can make some really high risk plays with lele and get rewarded for it.

Unlike heatran, who cannot be stopped from doing its thing, just somewhat diluted with over-preparedness, Weavile also has few opportunities to come in throughout a game. Therefore, as any experienced player can attest to, this means that there are techniques you can use in battle to make it hard for it to get space, unless you opponent takes high risk high reward plays.

The removal of lele will also improve the viability of crawdaunt, Bisharp, scizor and Conkeldurr. Yes I did just mention scizor there, because bulky punch is so important for its viability. All of these are natural checks to Weavile. I am sure there are so many other Pokémon’s sitting just on the fringe of OU that will immediately gain viability if lele was to go.

Heatran is another case, it’s literally just too good and I’m super in favour of testing it at the very least. If people think the meta will be too different without heatran, why not test it? It’s possibly the best Pokémon in OU right now for doing what it needs to do.

-

On the topic of

Toxapex is an interesting Pokémon. It’s unique in that it has literally everything it needs to be annoying:

• not item dependent, losing its item doesn’t affect it at all
• high defenses on both sides
• regenerator
• recovery
• knock off / scald to be annoying
• haze to make it harder to break
• toxic immune

Lol being walled by toxapex makes a Pokémon completely unviable. Being walled by another defensive behemoth like buzzwole doesn’t make a Pokémon completely unviable.

While I agree that Lele is among the scariest wallbreakers in the tier, I really just haven't seen or felt much of the supposed "steel stacking" that you mention, and mainly because even without Lele, Ferro+Tran cores are just plain good either way? The same can be said for having Melmetal as a member of a team with another steel. Steel is just a plain amazing typing even if Lele didn't exist because of its obvious defensive prowess but Melmetal can take a hit and fight back HARD.

I do think that the potential for banning Weavile still lies on some pretty vague aspects of the meta, and that's where the subjectivity of things like suspect tests go. However, I don't think that Tapu Lele forces you to arrange your team in a way that would be otherwise detrimental to non-Lele matchups. The biggest and most stereotypical example is that Kyurem pushed Scizor into OU relevance though the mon wasn't that good in OU outside of it, and I think that kind of perspective helps here. Having two steels on a team is often a good idea period lol. Furthermore, Lele is not alone in the "special attacker with almost no switch ins" camp anyway.

Though the current OU has a lot of issues right now, I think the fact that Tran, Lele, and Weavile are like the only mons being considered for a potential suspect test speaks to how much more stable the current meta is than the messiness of USUM OU lol

 

[Moyashi]

Moyashi so you’re saying Weavile naturally feasts on the current popular Pokémon, hence an easier time to get in and wreak havoc?

Well that’s kinda what makes it one of the best right now, it’s viability is through the roof

In a way this is somewhat true. But really to the SD sets. Banded Beat Up is stifling to deal with no matter what. And that's the problem. SD sets on their own are excellent but having to deal with beat up makes match ups against it a nightmare.

My argument is that if people could have more flexibility with team building, Weavile wouldn’t be as much of a predator. It’s good predominately because of the meta conditions right now making it good. to me it just doesn’t exude the same problem as heatran and Lele do. You can at least punish contact moves and run checks to it.

People's flexibility is more limited because of Weavile rather than Lele. Steel is an amazing type and that doesn't change with Lele gone. And Weavile's presence makes other Pokemon even better because of how well it pairs with them, and wears down shared checks. It does this ridiculously well. You can punish Weavile's contact moves oj most sets but beat up sets invalidate this and turn those checks into victims. Hell beat up sets are one reason why, imo, Colbur bro sets have fallen off.

Besting Weavile can be done more reliably if the metagame had more flexibility with team building. Imagine lele wasn’t in OU, and then introduced like zamazenta was. How different would the before and after look like?

What Pokemon get better that would check Weavile reliably if Lele wasn't in the tier? Also Zamazenta? As in base form? No thanks..

Also please note by me saying that the viability of crawdaunt, Bisharp, Conkeldurr and scizor would improve, I am by no means implying they will become metagame staples and top tier dominant threats as you seemed to suggest. We all understand their flaws.

Why did you bring them up? None are really checks at all outside maybe conk. Who like UrshifuR, gets worn down fast and can't switch in more than a few times.

 

[658Greninja]

However lele kind of forces this “steel stacking” or otherwise running a very bulky mixed team + regenerator thing almost on its own. This is what I’m arguing is not good about it in OU.

This might be a shocker but um…..double steel cores have existed since DPP (possibly since ADV/GSC), why? Because steel…is a really good fucking typing.

Rachi + Tran or Zong + Tran in Gen 4

Drill + Ferro or Drill + Tran in Gen 5

Framing this as something only formed to deal with Lele is grossly inaccurate. Tran + Ferro can create a hazard stacking core that can threaten defensive teams. Plus Ferro resists water while Tran is immune to fire, simple concept. Tran and Ferro are already splashable mons, its not like you are forced to run shit like Defog Hydrei for Spectrier when it was legal. What put Kyurem over the edge was that it can outlast those steels with Roost and throw out moves behind a sub. My point about Weavile is that it forces teams to run certain defensive cores similarly to Urshifu-SS. Also, if Lele wasn’t broken in Gen 7 where there is a similar power level and it gets HP Fire, what makes it broken now?

The removal of lele will also improve the viability of crawdaunt, Bisharp, scizor and Conkeldurr. Yes I did just mention scizor there, because bulky punch is so important for its viability. All of these are natural checks to Weavile. I am sure there are so many other Pokémon’s sitting just on the fringe of OU that will immediately gain viability if lele was to go.

Daunt fell because of the usage of Fini, Urshifu, and Buzzwole which btw, is due to Weavile. Banning Lele would barely help Scizor. Scizor only rose becuz of Kyurem, and it constantly has to Roost on the mons it is meant to check. Band Beat Up 2HKOs Scizor, meaning it has to Roost, otherwise it will just get killed the next time it comes in. This can be taken advantage of by Blace, Tran, and Volcanion (its most common partners). Conk was falling out of favor long before Crown Tundra. In IoA it was too slow for the faster paced meta. Fast forward to today and we see Conk struggling in a more BO infested meta, Buzzwole is the biggest offender to its existence. Not only does it completely wall it, but its also a competitor. Not to mention Urshifu and Gzap. Its also garbage as a Weavile check. It can’t switch into anything it throws out and it gets chipped faster than a toothpick via a chainsaw.

Lol being walled by toxapex makes a Pokémon completely unviable. Being walled by another defensive behemoth like buzzwole doesn’t make a Pokémon completely unviable.

*cough* Urshifu and Pult *cough* (no don’t say TPunch cause you know nobody is running that shit lmao)

 

[Lord Xen III]

, imo, Colbur bro sets have fallen off.

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (165 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Slowbro: 282-333 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock