Ah, my bad, a slight oversight. I'll work in it.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Ah, my bad, a slight oversight. I'll work in it.
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1). For something with a reputation of being a devastating breaker and cleaner with good overall role compression and utility, I feel as though public opinion often gives Weavile the long end of the stick more often than it deserves. Its tools offer it a variety of sets and spreads, but they are linear, which means that most of its checks and counters don't have to do anything crazy to impede any individual set. This makes Weavile overall more manageable, and also allows for some of its usual targets to prepare for it from the preview rather than devising more complicated means of removing it.
Counters
A counter is defined as "a Pokemon which can manually switch into an opposing Pokemon and still win every time, even under the worst scenario, without factoring in hax.", which Buzzwole, Toxapex, and Tapu Fini appropriately fit the bill of. Their defensive profiles give them consistent ways of dealing with Weavile, and their versatility affords them the ability to fit onto many team structures without subtracting from the team overall.
(These discount the situationals and partners of Weavile, which may vary in effect of the situation. However, most of the time these apply).
- Buzzwole is a physical wall, whose high physical bulk proves to handle Weavile consistently. Buzzwole resists both of its STABs, in addition to having access to Roost which gives it a steady source of recovery. Defensive sets use items such as Leftovers and Heavy-duty Boots, which grant Buzzwole a means to preserve its longevity, while Rocky Helmet gives it a way to punish Weavile. Its offensive presence makes it less passive than other walls, which makes Buzzwole a ready counter for Weavile.
- Toxapex is a staple of the tier and a well rounded defensive asset to many teams. As with other more passive defensive counters, it is important to manage Toxapex appropriately in the face of offensive threats like Weavile. Toxapex resists Weavile's Ice-type STABs, while managing Knock Off or Beat Up through careful defensive play. Items such as Black Sludge, Rocky Helmet, and Eject Button directly benefit Toxapax, by preserving its longevity, punishing Weavile, or gaining momentum. While passive, its coverage and recovery allow Toxapex to slowly dismantle Weavile.
- Tapu Fini, much like the former two, possesses solid bulk in addition to great defensive typing, which resists both of Weavile's STABs. Unlike Toxapex, as a defensive Water-type it isn't nearly as passive-- though, it also needs to play equally as carefully due to its lack of consistent recovery. Items such as Leftovers are most common and preserve Tapu Fini's longevity, while Choice Scarf offers Tapu Fini speed control and a way to cripple incoming counters and checks. Its defensive profile and wide movepool afford it sets like Calm Mind, which quickly turn it into a threatening win condition and counter to Weavile.
ChecksA check is defined as "a Pokémon which can- when given a free switch into the opposing Pokemon- win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." There are a number of these Pokemon in the tier, which have both the offensive and defensive profiles which allow them to consistently check Weavile-- most appearing with both variety and ubiquity.
Though most of these offer some form of counterplay for Weavile in the tier (including itself), some are more set and / or coverage dependent. Without their set or coverage, they are overall more vulnerable to Weavile. This can reduce the overall effectiveness of the checks, which is significant to their role. For instance, Kartana, Clefable, Tapu Lele, Blacephalon, and Slowbro may be overall more vulnerable due to their item or set dependency.
Hazards refer Pokemon associated with risk in making contact with, by attempting to chunk / dent, due to their ability to lure or cripple Weavile with contact effects and damage reducing berries. Making contact with Volcarona, Heatran, or Zapdos can result in Burns or Paralysis, while Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Corviknight, Toxapex, Buzzwole, Slowbro, and Magnezone can wear it down with Rocky Helmet in addition to abilities such as Iron Barbs or Rough Skin. Those such as Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Slowbro, Magnezone, and Melmetal are capable of running damage reducing berries which lure Weavile or prevent it from stopping their sweep.
Hazards
(No, not entry hazards).
Weather is an overall great way of reducing matchup fishing in most cases, with members which proactively check Weavile. Though this refers to a specific playstyle rather than select Pokemon, the offensive output in combination with members which check Weavile make Weather teams a great way out-offense it.
Weather
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2. I'm enjoying building with Weavile a lot, it's a great sweeper and breaker which fits on a lot of teamstyles and has decent role compression. In fact, there are few times where I don't build with it because of how stupidly simple teambuilding can be, and because of how offensively potent it is.3. I see Weavile quite a lot on ladder, even though I'm not exactly at a high ELO. Weavile's splashability makes it a present threat in the tier, which its usage reflects.4. There are a couple good sets, but I feel that the best Weavile set is Swords Dance. It can afford to run a variety of items, though the most important is Heavy-Duty Boots, which preserves its longevity and makes it a menace in the late game. Other items reduce this longevity, including its next bets set, Choice Band. While Choice Band is a very good set which affords a lot of coverage and damage, the value that Heavy-Duty Boots gives Weavile in a game (in addition to not being choice-locked) makes Swords Dance that much better overall.5. To some degree, I believe Weavile forces you to build against it. This isn't unlike other threats of the tier, and to some degree it works towards the builder's advantage because Weavile is so common and encourages counterplay.Thanks for sharing!
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As for other comments:
The thing about restricting abilities, items, or moves on certain Pokemon like Dracovish is that it crosses into complex ban territory, which we have covered before in detail. The overall philosophy of restricting certain play is to remove uncompetitive aspects as a whole and simulate a balanced environment, rather than selectively targeting one thing by adding or subtracting from it which deviates from the standard mechanics of a generation.
Of course, I think you know this, but I wanted to get my thoughts out of the way.
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As for Gen 9, one of my hopes is to have Hidden Power and other removed moves restored. As much as I completely despised Hidden Power for being a coverage cheat code, I think it can be balanced out to only be available on certain Pokemon, and with certain typing. Other moves like Pursuit and Return / Frustration could also be reworked, so that they are included and balanced aspects of the game.
Buzz gets 2HKOd by Band T-Axel. Fini is a check, not a counter. It has no recovery, and loses its lefties to Knock. Pex is the best one, but even max PhysD is 2HKOd by Band Beat Up, forcing Pex out and letting its dangerous teammates pick the scraps. Alot of the Ferro, Flame Body Tran, and Zap in the tier fold to Band Beat Up. Most of the “checks” listed are rkillers like Koko, Scarf Lele and Kart. Not to mention Clef is OHKOd by +2 T-Axel.
Before, Weavile was not relatively difficult to deal with. It can be chipped by Ferro, burnt with Flame Body Tran, lured by Colbro, or beaten by Buzz. Then more ppl started using Band with Beat Up and the counter-play shrunk. Weavile forces a dark resist on every team, but since every dark resist bar Fini is 2HKOd by Band T-Axel, you also need to pair it with something like Pex or Ferro that can take one Beat Up. Basically the Darkfu effect.
While it is of course nowhere near as broken, Weav puts a strain on team building, forcing two or more checks onto a team. Its not enough to have those checks to Band Weav, but you also need to take into account SD Boots which still is scary. The difference it has with the other offensive threats is that it is much faster than your Lele or Volcanion. Overall, Weavile is a mon that imo should be looked at before Gen 9 releases.
Weavile's influence is eerily similar to Cursedshifu which does make me think that a potential suspect test could happen. I think most of what's been said about Weavile's effect on teambuilding has already been said by now, but it's definitely gonna be interesting to see if CB Beat Up ends up being a fad or not.
On a more positive note, I've been having a lot of fun with Life Orb SD instead of HDB SD, to where HDB just kind of feels a little outdated. I feel like the current wave with Weavile is just wanting to squeeze out as much power as possible, and that's also why I've been using adamant more until I stop being able to bluff jolly. With Life Orb SD it does mean that Weav needs some extra care to be pivoted in and not to get murked by priority, but I do think that the flexibility that SD sets provide can be really nice and it's even more of a lethal win condition
On a more positive note, I've been having a lot of fun with Life Orb SD instead of HDB SD, to where HDB just kind of feels a little outdated. I feel like the current wave with Weavile is just wanting to squeeze out as much power as possible, and that's also why I've been using adamant more until I stop being able to bluff jolly. With Life Orb SD it does mean that Weav needs some extra care to be pivoted in and not to get murked by priority, but I do think that the flexibility that SD sets provide can be really nice and it's even more of a lethal win condition
When I'm referring to Wole, I mean its general role as a physically defensive tank. Most of the time it isn't 2HKO'd, but I understand that it can be knocked and of course, that being a worst case scenario, can limit it. As for Fini I can agree with that some, but I find the line for check and counter hard by definition because in most worst case scenarios Fini can manage Weavile. That could be my mistake, feel free to help me here.
As for Pex, it is forced out with Beat Up which can shrink counterplay. I'll try to fix my stuff later or I'll shorten and delete some portions. I appreciate the feedback from you all, but in the meantime I'm busy.
On the subject of Beat Up Weavile, I find it to be one of those potentially devastating breakers, but one with manageable counterplay still. I'll admit I could be biased here, but those teams are typically easy to scout from the preview and have poor momentum. They also don't have the greatest defensive backbone, which means they get cut through by a lot of common threats. The ones that focus more on a defensive backbone usually rely on slower high base attack members to fuel Beat Up, which gives them poor speed control and leaves them vulnerable to other breakers. Overall it's a high risk high reward situation because it's matchup dependent, and those situations against Beat Up Weavile where progress is made reduce its effectiveness.
However, I still agree with a lot of those points and I've felt 50/50 about Weavile for awhile now. I still believe Weavile is given more credit than is due at times, but there still might be something to push it over the edge for me.
The comparisons to Darkshifu's team warping influence was actually something I've talked about with some people off site so it's definitely something people think about. And I can kinda understand where it comes from. (Granted it isn't as powerful as Darkshifu in damage, though Weavile has its own advantages).
I think boots Weavile is plenty viable and strong, but like you said many players are doing all they can to stretch Weavile's capabilities and damage. I find NMI sets are highly threatening, OHKOing Buzzwole at +2 with triple axel after the slightest chip, as well as OHKOing Ferro similarly with minor chip like after it got its helmet knocked. My favorite feat however
+2 252+ Atk Never-Melt Ice Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 243-288 (71.2 - 84.4%) -- approx. 2HKO
Is doing over 70% minimum at +2. And if it switches into a knock prior, it's now a great chance to KO it in this scenario (Unboosted adamant knock doing 23.6% minimum). The fact that a resist with 100/100 physical bulk takes that much is nonsense. This of course is just NMI sets. Life orb sets have absurd potential to break most anything.
With regards to CB Beat Up, the potency of the set can lead many to expect it at team preview based on team make up, but I wonder how possible it is to bluff choice band and run LO or NMI SD sets and take advantage of that expectation.
SD LO weavile seems like an interesting idea and I feel like it would only fit on BO with solid hazard removal or on HO as it's not gonna be around for very long factoring in its weakness to hazards and lo recoil.
how bad of an idea is pads weavile
seems terrible
seems terrible
It doesn't seem like a bad idea as it's just another way to avoid the typical contact move counter play like Static, flame body , RH and Iron barbs. With an SD set it seems to be a good fit but I think non banded sets will prefer heavy duty boots on most teams outside of HO
Any sample teams? Would love to run Slash for real
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ft-alolan-sandslash-alolan-ninetales.3681004/
Pinka has a hail team with a-slash!
It would lose out on a lot of power or longevity it could otherwise have, but it's a way to get around annoying stuff like contact effects. Of course, sets like those work best with multiple hazard removal supports.
that's what i was thinking. Being able to actually kill zapdos without worrying about static para or killing corv w/o worrying about rocky helm would be pretty nice.
It definitely would lose out on a lot of power, but on double defog teams or regieleki spin teams it could be really good as a cleaner or breaker that can't be annoyed with helm, flame body, or static.
A couple days ago on Reddit, something weird was brought to my attention. According to Pikalytics, this image shows usage at 1825 ELO on the OU ladder.
1.
Why the hell does Xurkitree have 5% usage? Why the hell is it being used more than Volcanion and Rotom-W? I haven’t seen a single Xurkitree anywhere on the ladder, although I’m currently like 1500 because I’m bad at teambuilding. Accordingly, I will make some inferences about its use because I have no clue firsthand.
Xurkitree has never been good in OU, even in past metas. In SS, it lost two crucial assets in Tail Glow and Hidden Power (Ice). However, Blunder Policy makes for an interesting gimmick. Indeed, Blunder Policy is Xurkitree’s most frequently used item. Note that Salac Berry’s usage rate (Figure 2) is almost exactly the same as Substitute’s usage rate (Figure 3).
2.
I originally assumed that Blunder Policy was used in conjunction with Hypnosis, allowing Xurkitree to set up on would-be checks or get a large speed boost; either way, a good option. However, the move data tells a different story.
3.
Hypnosis is in fact seeing incredibly low use. The inaccurate move of choice appears to be Zap Cannon, which appears on just over half of all Xurkitrees. Presumably this means over 90% of Blunder Policy Xurkitrees use it.
Dazzling Gleam has extremely high usage at nearly 99%. I found this surprising, but Electric/Fairy has solid neutral coverage. Notably, Modest Xurkitree can OHKO Dragapult with an unboosted Dazzling Gleam.
I was also surprised to see Rising Voltage at 73% usage. While data shows that Tapu Koko is one of its common partners, I didn’t think it would be more common than Thunderbolt. At least that explains the low Hypnosis usage; sleep doesn’t work in electric terrain.
Speaking of common partners, Landorus-Therian and Tapu Koko were the first and second most common ones, respectively. Those don’t give much indication about what type of team Xurkitree appears on. However, its garbage bulk and negligible defensive utility suggest it most commonly appears on hyper offense. Sure enough, other common partners include Hawlucha, Alolan Ninetales, and even Slurpuff. Unfortunately, Xurkitree is not a staple on stall.
I could attach the image of partners data and some other things but I don’t feel like it. Instead, here’s a link: https://www.pikalytics.com/pokedex/gen8ou/xurkitree
I’d love to hear from anyone on high ladder who’s used Xurkitree because seriously what the hell is this trend.
1.
Why the hell does Xurkitree have 5% usage? Why the hell is it being used more than Volcanion and Rotom-W? I haven’t seen a single Xurkitree anywhere on the ladder, although I’m currently like 1500 because I’m bad at teambuilding. Accordingly, I will make some inferences about its use because I have no clue firsthand.
Xurkitree has never been good in OU, even in past metas. In SS, it lost two crucial assets in Tail Glow and Hidden Power (Ice). However, Blunder Policy makes for an interesting gimmick. Indeed, Blunder Policy is Xurkitree’s most frequently used item. Note that Salac Berry’s usage rate (Figure 2) is almost exactly the same as Substitute’s usage rate (Figure 3).
2.
I originally assumed that Blunder Policy was used in conjunction with Hypnosis, allowing Xurkitree to set up on would-be checks or get a large speed boost; either way, a good option. However, the move data tells a different story.
3.
Hypnosis is in fact seeing incredibly low use. The inaccurate move of choice appears to be Zap Cannon, which appears on just over half of all Xurkitrees. Presumably this means over 90% of Blunder Policy Xurkitrees use it.
Dazzling Gleam has extremely high usage at nearly 99%. I found this surprising, but Electric/Fairy has solid neutral coverage. Notably, Modest Xurkitree can OHKO Dragapult with an unboosted Dazzling Gleam.
I was also surprised to see Rising Voltage at 73% usage. While data shows that Tapu Koko is one of its common partners, I didn’t think it would be more common than Thunderbolt. At least that explains the low Hypnosis usage; sleep doesn’t work in electric terrain.
Speaking of common partners, Landorus-Therian and Tapu Koko were the first and second most common ones, respectively. Those don’t give much indication about what type of team Xurkitree appears on. However, its garbage bulk and negligible defensive utility suggest it most commonly appears on hyper offense. Sure enough, other common partners include Hawlucha, Alolan Ninetales, and even Slurpuff. Unfortunately, Xurkitree is not a staple on stall.
I could attach the image of partners data and some other things but I don’t feel like it. Instead, here’s a link: https://www.pikalytics.com/pokedex/gen8ou/xurkitree
I’d love to hear from anyone on high ladder who’s used Xurkitree because seriously what the hell is this trend.
Attachments
As a heads up, this is 1825+ Glicko: not 1825+ EloA couple days ago on Reddit, something weird was brought to my attention. According to Pikalytics, this image shows usage at 1825 ELO on the OU ladder.
1.
Why the hell does Xurkitree have 5% usage? Why the hell is it being used more than Volcanion and Rotom-W? I haven’t seen a single Xurkitree anywhere on the ladder, although I’m currently like 1500 because I’m bad at teambuilding. Accordingly, I will make some inferences about its use because I have no clue firsthand.
Xurkitree has never been good in OU, even in past metas. In SS, it lost two crucial assets in Tail Glow and Hidden Power (Ice). However, Blunder Policy makes for an interesting gimmick. Indeed, Blunder Policy is Xurkitree’s most frequently used item. Note that Salac Berry’s usage rate (Figure 2) is almost exactly the same as Substitute’s usage rate (Figure 3).
2.
View attachment 421194
I originally assumed that Blunder Policy was used in conjunction with Hypnosis, allowing Xurkitree to set up on would-be checks or get a large speed boost; either way, a good option. However, the move data tells a different story.
3.
View attachment 421196
Hypnosis is in fact seeing incredibly low use. The inaccurate move of choice appears to be Zap Cannon, which appears on just over half of all Xurkitrees. Presumably this means over 90% of Blunder Policy Xurkitrees use it.
Dazzling Gleam has extremely high usage at nearly 99%. I found this surprising, but Electric/Fairy has solid neutral coverage. Notably, Modest Xurkitree can OHKO Dragapult with an unboosted Dazzling Gleam.
I was also surprised to see Rising Voltage at 73% usage. While data shows that Tapu Koko is one of its common partners, I didn’t think it would be more common than Thunderbolt. At least that explains the low Hypnosis usage; sleep doesn’t work in electric terrain.
Speaking of common partners, Landorus-Therian and Tapu Koko were the first and second most common ones, respectively. Those don’t give much indication about what type of team Xurkitree appears on. However, its garbage bulk and negligible defensive utility suggest it most commonly appears on hyper offense. Sure enough, other common partners include Hawlucha, Alolan Ninetales, and even Slurpuff. Unfortunately, Xurkitree is not a staple on stall.
I could attach the image of partners data and some other things but I don’t feel like it. Instead, here’s a link: https://www.pikalytics.com/pokedex/gen8ou/xurkitree
I’d love to hear from anyone on high ladder who’s used Xurkitree because seriously what the hell is this trend.
That said, it vanishes in the 1695+ stats (1.07% as of right now), so it's probably just one person spamming a team with it on and being over-represented due to the relatively small pool of players.
This is why 1825 stats are kinda useless for spotting trends outside of the absolute top cut of usage lol. I also don't know how Pikalytics obtains its stats, so it's difficult to say how accurate it is.
Alright but Blunder Policy Zap Cannon does actually sound kinda fire ngl
It’s really fire until you keep hitting zap cannon and don’t get the speed boost when you really need it lol. At least it always paralyzes, but man it can be frustrating
miss: oh yeah double speed
hit: oh yeah half the opponent's speed
still bad tho. scarf is infinitely better and its still bad either way.
To anyone saying sand is "bad" i respectfully disagree
Idk where you guys get the misconception that sand is bad and sun is better than it. Being an avid sun user I will say sand is better just because Tork is so passive, and even if you run Toxic/Body Press it's nowhere near as threatening as Banded Ttar (which is a pain to switch into for Sun). Also there are many meta mons that sun hates (like Heatran) which forces you into running your own Balloon Tran or other niche mons which isn't necessarily bad but restricts the options you can work with. Also Darmanitan is kinda ass, you don't kill anything that Victini doesn't already kill so i'd rather run Vic since its faster, bulkier, doesn't kill itself with massive recoil , and provides a decent Lele switch-in unlike Darm which can't switch into shit. I guess Darm does have EQ for Tran but that's about it.
Back to the topic of sand being better than sun I can back it up by saying I've seen high ladder players above 2k elo using it, and they actually battled for the n.1 spot. Surely if sand didn't work they wouldn't be using it. Usually their team comp is like this: Band Ttar + Lefties Drill + Pex + Kart/Chomp (or both).
Regarding the topic of Zolt I did face Sand 2 times on the ladder around 1750-1800 elo using my Sun and both of them had Drill, not Zolt. Also I lost both games. Though to be fair in one of the games my Lando got flinched then crit by Drill which was utter bullshit, so I think I could've won if that didn't happen. My point though is Sand is still solid, it hurts to say it but its better than Sun which is my favorite weather by far.
Idk where you guys get the misconception that sand is bad and sun is better than it. Being an avid sun user I will say sand is better just because Tork is so passive, and even if you run Toxic/Body Press it's nowhere near as threatening as Banded Ttar (which is a pain to switch into for Sun). Also there are many meta mons that sun hates (like Heatran) which forces you into running your own Balloon Tran or other niche mons which isn't necessarily bad but restricts the options you can work with. Also Darmanitan is kinda ass, you don't kill anything that Victini doesn't already kill so i'd rather run Vic since its faster, bulkier, doesn't kill itself with massive recoil , and provides a decent Lele switch-in unlike Darm which can't switch into shit. I guess Darm does have EQ for Tran but that's about it.
Back to the topic of sand being better than sun I can back it up by saying I've seen high ladder players above 2k elo using it, and they actually battled for the n.1 spot. Surely if sand didn't work they wouldn't be using it. Usually their team comp is like this: Band Ttar + Lefties Drill + Pex + Kart/Chomp (or both).
Regarding the topic of Zolt I did face Sand 2 times on the ladder around 1750-1800 elo using my Sun and both of them had Drill, not Zolt. Also I lost both games. Though to be fair in one of the games my Lando got flinched then crit by Drill which was utter bullshit, so I think I could've won if that didn't happen. My point though is Sand is still solid, it hurts to say it but its better than Sun which is my favorite weather by far.
Torkoal also gets Yawn and while it is more passive than band ttar it's also generating more weather turns and sun has plenty of wallbreakers to make up the gap. And the wallbreakers ( victini, zard , blaziken, tran , venusaur) and running 2 of these make for very limited switchins. You also get options like scarf Kartana with Solar Blade.
You say excadrill is being used and not so much dracozolt in your post but then leaves you with one abuser and excadrill while great has its roadblocks too. You correctly say heatran is a problem for sun but just the same Lando is a problem for excadrill to get by as well.
It's not a misconception. Sand has massive inconsistency issues and struggles vs a lot of modern trends. Torkoal is somewhat passive, but toxic/lava plume can help spread status and Torkoal is a more active participant with its utility, while Ttar is either defensive setter (which is very passive and has to run smooth rock) or offensive (which gives up smooth rock and leaves it less reliable as a setter because it has poor defensive utility and gets worn down really quickly).
Sorry are you calling balloon Heatran niche? The arguably best rocker in the tier? Sun loves using Heatran BTW. While Heatran annoys sun teams, running your own is hardly a big deal.
Good players can use almost anything at high ladder. That doesn't reflect the Mon or playstyle necessarily, but the player themselves.
This doesn't prove anything regarding sand viability at all. It's personal anecdotes that don't really add to the argument.
Sun still isn't that consistent, but it's potentially far more threatening than sand is as their abusers are more overall consistent in their archetypes.
And Sun doesn't suffer from massive inconsistency as well? A lot of modern trends also heavily hinder Sun's viability, like for instance Volcanion being more prevalent, since Sun really hates Volc. I love Sun and it's pretty much the only playstyle I use but I'm well aware of its flaws. And as passive as defensive Ttar can be, it can still T-Wave offensive mons coming in and provide sandstorm chip. Plus the fact that Torkoal is slower than like 99% of the meta really sucks.
l'm not. I've used Balloon Tran long before it became a trend and I've always thought its pretty good. I called other mons that you could possibly use over Heatran, niche.
Yes good players can use stuff like Porygon-Z at high ladder, but when a good bunch of players, not just one, use something then I believe it starts reflecting the viability of a mon or playstyle. I've seen a good amount of Sands in that elo range. Why haven't I seen any Sun teams? Surely I would have seen at least one, if Sun is better than Sand as you seem to claim.
My point in that paragraph was about Drill being more common than Zolt on Sand teams. Nothing more.
Sun breakers can be very threatening yes, but Sand has more flexibility to fit mons like Kart, Chomp and Shifu which are just as threatening. I'm saying this based off actual teams i've seen and faced on the ladder.
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I'm not saying it doesn't, but sun has more relevant better match ups in the meta. Sand has a lot of roadblocks to get through as many of their common teammates are Pokemon naturally checked in the builder by most teams. Sun struggles because it can feel kinda all or nothing at times , but it at least has a high potential upside if it does work out.
This is the problem though. Defensive Ttar has to rely on these moves to do something. It's thus prone to taunt, trick, and generally misty terrain interfering. It lets in a ton of dangerous mons and also invites LandoT and Garchomp in.
It's not a good bunch. At 1825 range last month
| 61 | Excadrill | 1.87325% |
Even the 1695 range last month was only slightly more common.
| 48 | Excadrill | 3.36798% |
It's also not great to always trust what you may commonly see from experience on ladder as sometimes ladder is not representative of the meta at large or viability of some mons. A good example is Rillaboom, who has been a very mediocre Pokemon for a while now, but has consistently been high in usage compared to certain staples and actually good mons. Or when Kyurem was still in the tier and ladder was still not using its best sets that had major tourney usage and success.
i was reading up @ the sun vs sand thing and wanted to offer why i think sand is a much more consistent playstyle than sun
for me, the main attraction to using sand is the star of the show, cb tyranitar. unlike sun, which is heavily annoyed by the prospect of breaking through specific dragon-, fire-, and water-types, cb tar can accomplish a lot offensively in nearly every matchup even when supposed counters like buzzwole are in the picture, even if it is admittedly reliant on hitting edges to do so. it also holds actual relevant defensive use unlike the one-trick turtle vs ghosts, zapdos, and most volcarona. centering your offense around it rather than stacking random fires like sun often is forced to do also can give more diverse and defensively solid teams, like the three pretty common sand builds below. exca also isn't really as bad as people say: it still functions ok as a cleaner and can be very scary when using balloon to guarantee a boost vs lando, and often works a lot better when you take its weaknesses into account with adequate team support. the good sand teams i've seen focus less on going all into the sand using stuff like dracozolt and rather creating a sort of hybrid BO thing
(it's worth noting i don't even think i can remember a specific sun team used with any similar frequency since that hat team 2 years ago)
sun teams have difficulty maneuvering around a lot of stuff both offensively and defensively. the only matchups it really succeeds consistently in are certain BOs and fatter stuff but suffers vs any teams with dnite/pult/balloon (or even non balloon) tran/av torn... volcanion... ttar.. the list goes on and on. i don't think the 'diversity of abusers' is a great argument here since ultimately every sun team will end up looking like torkoal + a few fire types + venu + a lacking defensive core leaving you vulnerable to too much. it can still work as more of a ho-oriented style but sand doesn't have its limitations
for me, the main attraction to using sand is the star of the show, cb tyranitar. unlike sun, which is heavily annoyed by the prospect of breaking through specific dragon-, fire-, and water-types, cb tar can accomplish a lot offensively in nearly every matchup even when supposed counters like buzzwole are in the picture, even if it is admittedly reliant on hitting edges to do so. it also holds actual relevant defensive use unlike the one-trick turtle vs ghosts, zapdos, and most volcarona. centering your offense around it rather than stacking random fires like sun often is forced to do also can give more diverse and defensively solid teams, like the three pretty common sand builds below. exca also isn't really as bad as people say: it still functions ok as a cleaner and can be very scary when using balloon to guarantee a boost vs lando, and often works a lot better when you take its weaknesses into account with adequate team support. the good sand teams i've seen focus less on going all into the sand using stuff like dracozolt and rather creating a sort of hybrid BO thing
(it's worth noting i don't even think i can remember a specific sun team used with any similar frequency since that hat team 2 years ago)
sun teams have difficulty maneuvering around a lot of stuff both offensively and defensively. the only matchups it really succeeds consistently in are certain BOs and fatter stuff but suffers vs any teams with dnite/pult/balloon (or even non balloon) tran/av torn... volcanion... ttar.. the list goes on and on. i don't think the 'diversity of abusers' is a great argument here since ultimately every sun team will end up looking like torkoal + a few fire types + venu + a lacking defensive core leaving you vulnerable to too much. it can still work as more of a ho-oriented style but sand doesn't have its limitations
I feel like we're arguing about different things.
Personally, I feel that sand doesn't really "commit" to its weather. Sun runs tork, and then a bunch of sun breakers, where it doesn't really run other mons except the ones that fit on sun. Sand has a lot more versatility where you can run just about anything along ttar and drill/zolt and do fine. You can run chomp, moistshifu, anything and do fine because sand really only takes up a couple slots. I think sun and sand are around the same viability currently because of sand's versatility. Sun has more explosive power, but you're limited in what you can really run.
at least that's my opinion. I don't really play sand too much so take that with a grain of salt.
Personally, I feel that sand doesn't really "commit" to its weather. Sun runs tork, and then a bunch of sun breakers, where it doesn't really run other mons except the ones that fit on sun. Sand has a lot more versatility where you can run just about anything along ttar and drill/zolt and do fine. You can run chomp, moistshifu, anything and do fine because sand really only takes up a couple slots. I think sun and sand are around the same viability currently because of sand's versatility. Sun has more explosive power, but you're limited in what you can really run.
at least that's my opinion. I don't really play sand too much so take that with a grain of salt.
I think this pretty much sums up the sand vs sun discussion we've had for the last couple pages or so. Because of Rillaboom's declining usage, sand does have a bit more breathing room now. I mean, you still have to be ready for it just in case but not so much as before. Sand is pretty much like hail where it doesn't really have a proven structure, unlike sun and rain
I would like to add though. Perhaps sand's greatest use right now is not as a weather to abuse like the other three but simply as a weather to disrupt other weathers. Tyranitar easily destroys the other three setters while Hippowdon sticks around much longer than them. There's nothing more satisfying than watching an Alolan Ninetails struggle to put up an aurora veil because you have a Tyranitar or Hippowdon on your team