Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Tbh I find it really interesting how people are saying sun is better than sand because of how drill and draco rely on the sand, which makes me ask how venu doesn't have the same issue? Also what other abusers besides venu do you guys use on sun? While I don't use weather as a whole much myself I do have a couple of sun teams, such as this volcarona sun https://pokepast.es/22fe5da4cd1c56ad
as well as a zard sun https://pokepast.es/c3cb1bcc6bd2c075

Edit: Ik I'm a bit late to this, but I got a couple anti-stall squads myself, such as this Haxorus+fsight lele BO
https://pokepast.es/4bcb72da557aac8e

And this CB beat up bisharp BO
https://pokepast.es/f3aeb2d57a69e358

Personally, I am also with the others who say sand is the worst rn. The problem with sand teams is aside from Zolt and Exca being near unusable in this meta, you can probably make a better team with a non sand team. The only thing that a sand team has going for it is that it can literally afford any pokemon it wants. For example, let's say one has a team with Hippowdon, Excadrill, Corviknight, specs Tapu Lele, Slowbro and whatever else. At that point, why still bother to use Excadrill? Why not use Garchomp instead and the team would still be perfectly fine? Honestly, I think that Tyranitar and Hippowdon are better off as standalone mons than dedicating them to supporting Excadrill or Dracozolt

As for sun, Venusaur does have a million issues which is why sun isn't that common. Unlike sand, sun actually has some abusers like specs Heatran or band Victini. Mons like these are so strong under the sun that even resists straight up dies or are two shotted

In the end, it isn't even the issues that makes sand the worst weather for me. It's the fact that the two sand abusers just don't have a good time and that, under the right circumstances, sun teams can be very dangerous to face. However, since Heatran is still everywhere, that also makes sun teams very volatile as they might just end up powering up enemy Heatrans which is why they're very rare
 
Dracovish was banned before Sand Rush was even released. And there are no intentions to unban it with or without Sand Rush (or in any capacity) this generation.
honestly, i only started playing around DLC2s release, so i had no idea
if anything, that just shows how insanely overpowered mr fish is.
 
Where did you get a 165 BP knock off from
It's meant to be Choice Band Beat up, mb.
I'm highlighting the fact that Colbur Bro can still lure in weavile and kill it. And I personally have also killed a choice band beat up bisharp too with Colbur bro.







Dracozolt especially seems really good on paper, but in practice its just worse than arctozolt. Even without veil, arctozolt is just better.View attachment 420304
While arctozolt has a lot lower speed, in hail its fast enough, with it hitting 452 speed with the recommended set.
Arctozolt has the better stabs, with ice/electric being a lot better than dragon/electric. Dracozolt hits pretty hard wth its stabs, but it has shortcomings.
lando and other bulky grounds are hard walls to dracozolt and sand in general, and honestly dracozolt's spatk isnt very impressive. Dropping a draco does some okay damage, but really isn't anything special.
Honestly, sand was pretty carried by the megas in the past couple generations, because without them sand isn't really anything crazy. In gen 5 it was insane, but with all the power creep excadrill really just isnt cutting it. The fossils were a nice buff to sand when fishy fishy was terrorizing the tier, but dracozolt really just doesn't compare to mons like skewda and its sibling arctozolt.

Yeah I meant to say dracozolt in my post , I always get them mixed up haha.
 
Perhaps if sand was allowed to use its new toy it would be better, but alas we are not allowed to live in this world. Perhaps one day Smogon will allow for the banning of ability + pokemon rather than the entire pokemon, but I don't see that day coming anytime soon.


Dude, Sand Rush Vish wouldn't be balanced just because Sand Rush Zolt is. All Sand Rush does is trade rendering fat unviable for rendering offense unviable, because now you've got 170 BP Fishious Rends coming off something that outspeeds Scarfed Base 100s.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 372-438 (104.2 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 448-528 (159.4 - 187.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 408-480 (145.1 - 170.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 450-531 (141.9 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 224-264 (70.6 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So your options are, what... Full-health Pult with no hazards up and the hope it's not bluffing Band with Mystic Water, full stall, opposing weather or Scarf Trace Gardevoir? No thankyou.
 
As a sand lover I will come to the defense of godzilla, the mole, and the fucked up dinosaur. I’m gonna be honest I don’t understand the abundance of sand hate rn, I see it as significantly better than sun and barely worse than hail and rain.

People seem to be really underestimating Dracozolt’s wallbreaking potential. Even spdef lando, the supposed check that makes it trash, is taking ~50% from lo draco on the switch, which is a lot, and really valuable damage when there’s an Excadrill in the back to clean, or just for the next time zolt comes in. Not to mention Dracozolt eats chomp teams for breakfast, and spdef Hippowdon, it’s best check, is on a significant downtrend.

As for Excadrill, I don’t think it’s as bad as people make it out to be. It provides great utility with hazard removal, and Zapdos isn’t running heat wave nearly as often as before, making it easy to set up on. The main roadblocks for an Excadrill sweep are Lando, Corviknight, and Buzzwole. Corviknight is the worst culprit but it isn’t the most common thing around these days. Dracozolt beats the latter two and does a lot of damage to the former aswell. Buzzwole and Lando are also vulnerable to chip from hazards, toxic, and iron head flinches.

I do want to note that sand alongside rain is one of the only weathers that has the luxury of two effective speed doubling abusers. Hail really only has Arctozolt, with Arctovish and Alolaslash being really fringe and not nearly as effective. Sun is even worse off, with Venusaur being the only real means of a viable chlorophyll abuser, and it struggles as speed control because of its inability to revenge kill Dragapult and Torn-T.

Versus a lot of teams the combination of Dracozolt and hazards can break through it’s shared check with Drill in the team’s obligatory ground, and that is usually sufficient to let Dracozolt cripple the team’s defensive structure enough to let Excadrill clean up. Running Band T-tar also compounds the pressure on a team’s core, usually forcing crucial sacks of mons like Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and Landorus with its nuclear power.

I think the final point I want to make in defense of sand is that it has by far the best selection of weather setters. Ttar and Hippo are completely viable regardless of their ability to set weather and both contribute valuably with their offensive pressure+key resists and defensive utility respectively. Compare this to Torkoal and Pelipper, all they do is take 25% from rocks and be poor hazard removers. Alolatales is a little better, but it’s still rocks weak, lacks recovery/offensive pressure, and has difficulty coming in, relying on its hail to do anything of value as support.
 
What are your thoughts about weavile?
:ss/Weavile:

1.Does Weavile have any hard counters or checks?
2. Do you like building with Weavile?
3. How often do you see weavile on ladder?
4. What do you feel is the best Weavile set?
5. Do you feel that Weavile forces you to build against or around it?
Honestly just looking for some opinions on the ice weasel!
 
As a sand lover I will come to the defense of godzilla, the mole, and the fucked up dinosaur. I’m gonna be honest I don’t understand the abundance of sand hate rn, I see it as significantly better than sun and barely worse than hail and rain.

People seem to be really underestimating Dracozolt’s wallbreaking potential. Even spdef lando, the supposed check that makes it trash, is taking ~50% from lo draco on the switch, which is a lot, and really valuable damage when there’s an Excadrill in the back to clean, or just for the next time zolt comes in. Not to mention Dracozolt eats chomp teams for breakfast, and spdef Hippowdon, it’s best check, is on a significant downtrend.

As for Excadrill, I don’t think it’s as bad as people make it out to be. It provides great utility with hazard removal, and Zapdos isn’t running heat wave nearly as often as before, making it easy to set up on. The main roadblocks for an Excadrill sweep are Lando, Corviknight, and Buzzwole. Corviknight is the worst culprit but it isn’t the most common thing around these days. Dracozolt beats the latter two and does a lot of damage to the former aswell. Buzzwole and Lando are also vulnerable to chip from hazards, toxic, and iron head flinches.

I do want to note that sand alongside rain is one of the only weathers that has the luxury of two effective speed doubling abusers. Hail really only has Arctozolt, with Arctovish and Alolaslash being really fringe and not nearly as effective. Sun is even worse off, with Venusaur being the only real means of a viable chlorophyll abuser, and it struggles as speed control because of its inability to revenge kill Dragapult and Torn-T.

Versus a lot of teams the combination of Dracozolt and hazards can break through it’s shared check with Drill in the team’s obligatory ground, and that is usually sufficient to let Dracozolt cripple the team’s defensive structure enough to let Excadrill clean up. Running Band T-tar also compounds the pressure on a team’s core, usually forcing crucial sacks of mons like Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and Landorus with its nuclear power.

I think the final point I want to make in defense of sand is that it has by far the best selection of weather setters. Ttar and Hippo are completely viable regardless of their ability to set weather and both contribute valuably with their offensive pressure+key resists and defensive utility respectively. Compare this to Torkoal and Pelipper, all they do is take 25% from rocks and be poor hazard removers. Alolatales is a little better, but it’s still rocks weak, lacks recovery/offensive pressure, and has difficulty coming in, relying on its hail to do anything of value as support.
Dracozolt tends to be prediction reliant though. you need to first correctly predict that lando switchin to draco, and if you mispredict you tend to lose momentum with zolt far easier than with rain/hail/fire abusers. if they switch in a steel on that draco you're now at minus-2 and they can rather safely now switch lando, and lando in general is omnipresent, while sun/rain/ice wallbreakers tend to easily get past lando.
i'll give you that hippo is not particularly common though. it doesn't help that lando is immune to spikes and commonly runs defog to boot.

Dracozolt can beat those checks but the issue they aren't really gonna be staying in on dracozolt, meaning you need another offensive mon to lure those in. For an offense, being able to lure in the usual checks is essential. Rain, Sun in particular make this easy as their abusers can 2hko most of the common resists in weather like volcanion, and even the exceptions like heatran for instance are easily lured by the tons of ground and fighting coverage available to the various sun abusers.


the speed doubling is a fair point, as awell as band ttar, but running band means less weather turns. Torkoal has utility options like toxic, rapid spin, and Yawn and lava plume, and pelipper can even run a choice specs set if we are going the route of making it offensive to compare to ttar. And Alola Ninetails has useful options like hypnosis, encore, freeze-dry, and Grudge


That isn't to say Sand isn't viable or good, but it should be the worst and I haven't seen the success of it on the same level of rain/hail. Sun vs Sand is closer
 
I feel like it's definitely lele, that thing just puts a lot of pressure on almost every team conceived by man and I feel is really only held back by focus blast's 70% accuracy. Nothing really checks specs lele comfortably, and one wrong prediction could really lose you the game against it. Offensive teams struggle less against it, but from what I've seen the meta right now favors bulkier teams over HO and the likes (could completely be wrong though) and that's just a great place to be for lele which repeatedly comes in from an allied pivot on slower mons and forces extremely dangerous 50/50s. I feel like it's continued presence will lead us to see more chople ttar/melms/ferros in the future to be able to deal with it more efficiently.

Koko is the same as always and while being a reliable endgame sweeper, there's nothing right now that makes it particularly good, especially since the aforementioned fat teams that aren't as scared by koko's middling Spatk as more offensive teams would. It still gets credit for being a good offensive check to weavile and non-scarf shifu because of its amazing speedtier, but that was always the case.

Fini's definitely favoured by the Weavile craze going on, being it's premier check/counter, but I still wouldn't say its as good as lele. While it is annoying to deal with for some teams, it's lack of recovery makes it so you can always kinda just brute force through it over the course of a game, through hazard or just a million resisted hits. The fact that defensive variants don't really hit back with anything also plays in its disfavor: it's a pretty passive mon over all, notably lacking any sort of pivot unlike other walls in the tier like corv, lando, slowbro, etc. that would allow it to keep momentum going.

On another note, I wanted to share a Victini set I've had quite some success with recently, especially in this replay where I face one of the ladder's dreaded mono-bs teams: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1558137345

Victini @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Taunt
- Toxic
- U-turn

Let's be realistic; When's the last time you clicked Bolt Strike/Fusion Bolt on your boots victini ? That shit does like 40% to physdef pex anyways, I wouldn't run it on non-choiced sets. For this reason, I prefer to run this taunt/toxic variant which can easily cripple mons that like to come in on Victini that are extremely passive such as Hippo, Defensive Mew, etc... and can really be crippled by Toxic on the Switch or Taunt + U-Turn. Let me know what you think.

the last time i clicked electric move..? The last time i used victini lmao
Rocks/spikes + strike 2kos pex and is also useful for fini and shifu as said earlier.
 
Dracozolt tends to be prediction reliant though. you need to first correctly predict that lando switchin to draco, and if you mispredict you tend to lose momentum with zolt far easier than with rain/hail/fire abusers. if they switch in a steel on that draco you're now at minus-2 and they can rather safely now switch lando, and lando in general is omnipresent, while sun/rain/ice wallbreakers tend to easily get past lando.
i'll give you that hippo is not particularly common though. it doesn't help that lando is immune to spikes and commonly runs defog to boot.

Dracozolt can beat those checks but the issue they aren't really gonna be staying in on dracozolt, meaning you need another offensive mon to lure those in. For an offense, being able to lure in the usual checks is essential. Rain, Sun in particular make this easy as their abusers can 2hko most of the common resists in weather like volcanion, and even the exceptions like heatran for instance are easily lured by the tons of ground and fighting coverage available to the various sun abusers.


the speed doubling is a fair point, as awell as band ttar, but running band means less weather turns. Torkoal has utility options like toxic, rapid spin, and Yawn and lava plume, and pelipper can even run a choice specs set if we are going the route of making it offensive to compare to ttar. And Alola Ninetails has useful options like hypnosis, encore, freeze-dry, and Grudge


That isn't to say Sand isn't viable or good, but it should be the worst and I haven't seen the success of it on the same level of rain/hail. Sun vs Sand is closer
I mean I can give you that its worse than rain and hail, but I think sun is well worse off that it, because of the struggle to form a solid defensive structure against common mons like heatran and dragapult that also has competent defoggers. I think one flaw in your argument is a sentence in your 2nd paragraph.
For an offense, being able to lure in the usual checks is essential.
A lot of sand teams are usually not offense, and rely on hazards and toxic to make significant progress against mons like Buzzwole and Lando. I also disagree with the notion that you have to predict the switch to lando with zolt. In most matchups exca will be the sweeper that sticks around to clean in the endgame. Dracozolt is here for a good time, not a long time. It is perfectly reasonable in a lot of matchups to trade Dracozolt for fire blast on switch+draco damage on Landorus, and there's always a good chance they try to uturn or defog instead, putting the sand user in a fantastic position. Another thing I disagree with is exca's checks not staying in on Dracozolt. Dracozolt has maybe 3 reasonable switchins in the entire vr, and the one that is most common (lando) absolutely must be preserved in sand matchups, and kept from taking significant damage. This leads to a lot of players staying in, because letting lando get to 50% puts them in a really poor position should dracozolt come in later. Most people are glad to give up an exca check to keep their zolt check, because of how much harder it is to switch into zolt.
 
On the Sand vs Sun discussion. As someone who used Sand through middle school against my bff I have to agree that Sun is just better rn.

My main reasoning is that Sun can have a much wider variety of abusers than Sand. Sand has Excadrill and Dracozolt. If you want to use Lycanroc with maybe some Adamant Sand Rush shenanigans maybe? Sand didn't care about abusers before because Excadrill was such a big threat that it didn't need more abusers. Excadrill could carry sand on its back, but now that Exca has fallen from grace it just doesn't cut it with 2 abusers.

Sun however can abuse literally any decent fire type. The main ones obviously being Charizard, Victini, and Volcanion, but using Specs Tran, Blacephalon, Volcarona, Darmanitan, Blaziken, hell even things like Rotom-Heat could be good in Sun. Sun also has the incredible Chlorophyll user Venusaur who can take the bulky waters the fire types struggle to beat. When you fight a sun team you never know what you're going to be fighting and thats the really good niche with Sun. Even Rain doesn't utilize the incredible variety Sun does. Rain has Barra, Kingdra, and Seismitoed, along with Zapdos and Thundo-T that you see constantly, but I've seen so many different kinds of Sun teams its ridiculous. Volcanion Sun, ScarfTran Sun, SpecsTran Sun, Volcarona Sun, Sun HO with Darm and Victini shredding through teams. The main Venusaur sun teams. Zard teams, ect ect. Sun absolutely has its place in the meta due to the sheer amount of options it has. Sand just is a sad shell of what it once was. Zolt loses to any ground type and Exca gets hard walled by Corviknight. The most viable mon in the tier Lando-T can beat both of them and thats just a huge problem. At least for Sun they can use Sun boosted fire moves to just overwhelm Lando without the need to boost, but Exca has to boost to fight Lando.

It isn't even a contest imo.
 
People seem to be really underestimating Dracozolt’s wallbreaking potential. Even spdef lando, the supposed check that makes it trash, is taking ~50% from lo draco on the switch, which is a lot,

172 SpA Life Orb Dracozolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 153-181 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'm not sure what calcs you are running to get 50%. With rocks up this is more true but not from LO Draco alone. Even max SpAtk doesn't break 45%. Dracozolt doesn't just struggle with Spdef LandoT, it's very prediction reliant.

As for Excadrill, I don’t think it’s as bad as people make it out to be. It provides great utility with hazard removal, and Zapdos isn’t running heat wave nearly as often as before, making it easy to set up on.

Excadrill having no defensive utility is a huge problem. It's immensely frail and walled too easily. And cannot beat many hazard setters making it bad as a remover. And Zapdos is running beat wave a lot more lately. I don't know what you are talking about. Especially as offensive Zapdos is gaining more and more popularity. And as for Banded Ttar, yeah you could but then you lose the longer sand duration. And Banded Ttar also has major problems of being significantly frailer and easier to pressure.

As far as having better setters I can't agree. Hippo is passive and can kill momentum. Tyranitar is better and has utility tools, but forgoes leftovers for smooth rock most of the time and means it gets worn down by hazards and chip very fast.

It is perfectly reasonable in a lot of matchups to trade Dracozolt for fire blast on switch+draco damage on Landorus, and there's always a good chance they try to uturn or defog instead

This is what is meant partially when talking about prediction. Sand teams always have to make sure they make the right calls so they get the most out of every turn which means one wrong prediction puts them on the back foot and gives the opponent huge momentum. And it doesn't help that Dracozolt is revenge killed easily by priority ice shard. Sand also really only has these two abusers while even sun has options beyond Venusaur like Heatran, Darmanitan, Victini...

Sand simply doesn't match up well at all against the meta.
 
I feel like sand is really good in theory but can be kind of a liability in practice unless you're literally a clairvoyant and know how to predict every switch, which already puts you at a disadvantage when you have to be biting your nails almost every turn. Sand is fun but because it's so easy to choke the game from just one bad turn it really limits it. Sand loves the brainless button clicking Lando players but those kinds of Landos become less common up the ladder lol
 
I feel like sand is really good in theory but can be kind of a liability in practice unless you're literally a clairvoyant and know how to predict every switch, which already puts you at a disadvantage when you have to be biting your nails almost every turn. Sand is fun but because it's so easy to choke the game from just one bad turn it really limits it
sand seems like it would be really good but your prediction game needs to be on point to win.

If you bolt beak on a lando switch, that could potentially cost the game. But, if you draco on a steel..
the same thing happens
and excadrill honestly just isnt strong enough anymore to cut it.
 
Something that came to mind is how ridiculously overtuned barraskewda is.

:barraskewda:

What’s your method to deal with it if you’re:

- not running slowbro, toxapex or tangrowth
- not running a weather team

Why is barraskewda overtuned? Because if your opponent knows it has a MU advantage with the fish, then they are just 1-2 double switches or pivots away from forcing you into a losing position. The 90BP flip turns and the fact that liquidation 2HKOs resistant offensive Pokémon can easily overwhelm a team in just a few turns.



I sincerely believe that Weavile is getting a lot of the focus because it performs so well against popular and extremely viable OU Pokémon.

But then you have overtuned Pokémon like Barraskewda, and the previously mentioned lele, who are not “better” than Weavile at all, but certainly apply significantly more pressure in a matchup advantage scenario.
 
Dude, Sand Rush Vish wouldn't be balanced just because Sand Rush Zolt is. All Sand Rush does is trade rendering fat unviable for rendering offense unviable, because now you've got 170 BP Fishious Rends coming off something that outspeeds Scarfed Base 100s.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 372-438 (104.2 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 448-528 (159.4 - 187.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 408-480 (145.1 - 170.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 450-531 (141.9 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 224-264 (70.6 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So your options are, what... Full-health Pult with no hazards up and the hope it's not bluffing Band with Mystic Water, full stall, opposing weather or Scarf Trace Gardevoir? No thankyou.

I was (mostly) joking with the Dracovish comment. I was simply riffing on the fact that people were talking about the new abomination fossil mons being better for hail than sand by pointing out that sand didn't get its main new toy due to its big mouth.

But you're arguing that Vish would be broken because it can KO a bunch of offensive threats under sand with choice band? I have some bad news for you on that front:

252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 355-418 (87.8 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Rain: 330-388 (81.6 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's only slightly more powerful than Barraskewda in rain. And Barraskewda has flip turn to wear down counters and way more attack so its coverage options actually do damage.

Sand Rush Dracovish would be balanced in OU. It's banned purely due to strong jaw.

(And yes I know complex bans blah de blah, I completely understand why they're not done, but let a man dream of his Vish teaming up with its big thigh deformed brethren Zolt to play in the sand together)
 
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On the Sand vs Sun discussion. As someone who used Sand through middle school against my bff I have to agree that Sun is just better rn.

My main reasoning is that Sun can have a much wider variety of abusers than Sand. Sand has Excadrill and Dracozolt. If you want to use Lycanroc with maybe some Adamant Sand Rush shenanigans maybe? Sand didn't care about abusers before because Excadrill was such a big threat that it didn't need more abusers. Excadrill could carry sand on its back, but now that Exca has fallen from grace it just doesn't cut it with 2 abusers.

Sun however can abuse literally any decent fire type. The main ones obviously being Charizard, Victini, and Volcanion, but using Specs Tran, Blacephalon, Volcarona, Darmanitan, Blaziken, hell even things like Rotom-Heat could be good in Sun. Sun also has the incredible Chlorophyll user Venusaur who can take the bulky waters the fire types struggle to beat. When you fight a sun team you never know what you're going to be fighting and thats the really good niche with Sun. Even Rain doesn't utilize the incredible variety Sun does. Rain has Barra, Kingdra, and Seismitoed, along with Zapdos and Thundo-T that you see constantly, but I've seen so many different kinds of Sun teams its ridiculous. Volcanion Sun, ScarfTran Sun, SpecsTran Sun, Volcarona Sun, Sun HO with Darm and Victini shredding through teams. The main Venusaur sun teams. Zard teams, ect ect. Sun absolutely has its place in the meta due to the sheer amount of options it has. Sand just is a sad shell of what it once was. Zolt loses to any ground type and Exca gets hard walled by Corviknight. The most viable mon in the tier Lando-T can beat both of them and thats just a huge problem. At least for Sun they can use Sun boosted fire moves to just overwhelm Lando without the need to boost, but Exca has to boost to fight Lando.

It isn't even a contest imo.

To add on to this that sun is better, the sand setters are usually better off not committing to being a dedicated sand setter. Just about everybody has said that Dracozolt and Excadrill sucks. With Dracozolt, stabs + fire blast and earthquake does seem nice but the life orb is the problem. If you don't have godlike predictions, your little dinosaur is not gonna accomplish anything much before dying. Perhaps worst of all is if you end up dracoing a steel type and now, they're really not gonna fear your fire blast at all. Excadrill does have a better time but it isn't much as physical defense Ferrothorn with body press can be an issue along with Buzzwall, Zapdos and Corviknight. In the end, the amount of issues that these two have is just not worth for Tyranitar and Hippowdon to commit to supporting them. To make things worse, sand teams can't even rely on Garchomp anymore because we banned sand veil. As inconsistent as it was, there is nothing more heartbreaking than seeing a 'Weavile used ice shard. Garchomp avoided the attack' and your Weavile just dies

Rn, Hippowdon is far better off with lefties as an incredibly obnoxious alternative to Landorus and can be troublesome to setup on due to roar. While Tyranitar is far better off as a band breaker. The regular band sets are already strong enough but if that thing decides to use assurance and is supported by a team that can pressure you not to defog, that shit is painful

From personal experience, I think that sand was at its best during the time Spectrier was terrorizing the tier. Ghost horse practically forces every team to run a dark type and Tyranitar was one of the most reliable answer. It walls the hell out of choiced sets while Excadrill destroys any non scarf. I spammed sand teams during that team and it gave me very consistent results
 
It's only slightly more powerful than Barraskewda in rain. And Barraskewda has flip turn to wear down counters and way more attack so its coverage options actually do damage.

Sand Rush Dracovish would be balanced in OU. It's banned purely due to strong jaw.

It's more powerful and significantly bulkier than Barraskewda.

252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barraskewda: 225-265 (85.5 - 100.7%)

252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dracovish: 150-177 (46.7 - 55.1%)

This massively increases the number of times Vish can switch in by just hard switching into attacks, instead of being reliant on risky doubles or pivot moves. Dracovish also has a good secondary typing to bash Dragons and sometimes muscle through waters and grasses via Banded Outrage. It can even take 70% off Ferrothorn with Band Low Kick. Dracovish doesn't need Flip Turn to wear down its counters, it just straight up kills them.

Comparing Dracovish to Barraskewda only makes sense in water STAB damage output. In the real world they're drastically different. Dracovish should stay banned forever.
 
I mean I can give you that its worse than rain and hail, but I think sun is well worse off that it, because of the struggle to form a solid defensive structure against common mons like heatran and dragapult that also has competent defoggers. I think one flaw in your argument is a sentence in your 2nd paragraph.

A lot of sand teams are usually not offense, and rely on hazards and toxic to make significant progress against mons like Buzzwole and Lando. I also disagree with the notion that you have to predict the switch to lando with zolt. In most matchups exca will be the sweeper that sticks around to clean in the endgame. Dracozolt is here for a good time, not a long time. It is perfectly reasonable in a lot of matchups to trade Dracozolt for fire blast on switch+draco damage on Landorus, and there's always a good chance they try to uturn or defog instead, putting the sand user in a fantastic position. Another thing I disagree with is exca's checks not staying in on Dracozolt. Dracozolt has maybe 3 reasonable switchins in the entire vr, and the one that is most common (lando) absolutely must be preserved in sand matchups, and kept from taking significant damage. This leads to a lot of players staying in, because letting lando get to 50% puts them in a really poor position should dracozolt come in later. Most people are glad to give up an exca check to keep their zolt check, because of how much harder it is to switch into zolt.

1) well for Sun, I admit Heatran is a huge challenge and it's one of the most used pokemon, and one of the several reasons why Sun is inferior to Rain and hail, but it's pretty easy to fit Garchomp on Sun since it gets boosted fire/fang fire blast coverage to beat buzzwole/Skarmory/Corviknight and can check Tran and Volcarona while compressing an electric immunity. And you can also run your own Heatran, Air balloon variants fit pretty well on Sun as a check to many opposing Heatrans for Sun, and combined with the fact that all the breakers have fighting and earth coverage Heatran is definitely a threat but can be played around. The other big issue with Sun is that it struggles with not just Dragapult but also a lot of Dragons in general, and the classic solutions are either a Weavile or a Mandibuzz. Mandibuzz isn't the best defogger i agree, but still is not bad at covering the offensive threats to Sun. You could still run a combo of something like Defog Lando T+ weavile+ air balloon Tran or equivalent and cover most of the problems Sun has, but of course not perfect.

2) I agree i overlooked that, but in general I haven't seen that many sand teams lately to begin with.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-teambuilding-lab-closed.3682792/
https://pokepast.es/900df0470f645d83

just looking at a few examples In the teambuilding lab, There are 3 sand teams, 1 BO and 2 balances, and it seems like Dracozolt and Excadrill being together tends to force your sand team toward BO rather than balance, as you typically want another breaker like Tornadus especially if forggo-ing Band Ttar, but you still want that 3rd breaker, and then you still need room for rocks and another piece of defensive backbone, so it doesn't seem to be easy to make a team that can force progress with hazards and toxic while running both sand breakers/sweepers.

I'd be happy to learn about other sand teams though that have had success in tourneys but there doesn't seem to be that many.


3) I agree that Dracozolt rewards skillful play heavily but it's still very mind-gamey to use it. your opponent doesn't want to risk Lando sure, but that doesn't mean they should take no risks at all as the alternative, so it's still a bit of a huge 50/50 with the most common mon in the tier which is an issue the other playstyles have less often. and Dracozolt is normally on a timer too, so it's not there for a long time but if you predict wrong it's in for a short and bad time almost as much as it is in for a good time. The things that can wall dracozolt are few, but lots of things can render each coverage move irrelevant. So Dracozolt ends up being a high risk high reward kind of pokmeon. With each mispredict you're losing health and precious sand turns which are gonna be few given that running Band Ttar means you lose soft sand. So if dracozolt comes in on slowbro, you could hit an electric move, but then you lose momentum to lando, you could hit draco, but then their ferrothorn punishes you, you could hit Fire blast predicting the ferro but then bro can teleport bring in lando. but if Slowbro is their back up check to excadrill, then they wouldn't really want to risk the Teleport anyways and would still hard switch out most of the time anyways. So the result is slowbro isn't really gonna stay in on Dracozolt most of the time in that sense. Though i can see situations where if you had zolt out on Ferro, switching in slowbro to pivot on the fire blast, then going lando on the electric move might be desireable.
 
What are your thoughts about weavile?

:ss/Weavile:

1. Does Weavile have any hard counters or checks?
2. Do you like building with Weavile?
3. How often do you see weavile on ladder?
4. What do you feel is the best Weavile set?
5. Do you feel that Weavile forces you to build against or around it?
Honestly just looking for some opinions on the ice weasel!

--

1). For something with a reputation of being a devastating breaker and cleaner with good overall role compression and utility, I feel as though public opinion often gives Weavile the long end of the stick more often than it deserves. Its tools offer it a variety of sets and spreads, but they are linear, which means that most of its checks and counters don't have to do anything crazy to impede any individual set. This makes Weavile overall more manageable, and also allows for some of its usual targets to prepare for it from the preview rather than devising more complicated means of removing it.​

Counters

:ss/buzzwole: :ss/Toxapex: :ss/tapu fini:

A counter is defined as "a Pokemon which can manually switch into an opposing Pokemon and still win every time, even under the worst scenario, without factoring in hax.", which Buzzwole, Toxapex, and Tapu Fini appropriately fit the bill of. Their defensive profiles give them consistent ways of dealing with Weavile, and their versatility affords them the ability to fit onto many team structures without subtracting from the team overall.
  • Buzzwole is a physical wall, whose high physical bulk proves to handle Weavile consistently. Buzzwole resists Weavile's strong Dark-type STABS, in addition to having access to Roost which gives it a steady source of recovery. Defensive sets use items such as Leftovers and Heavy-duty Boots, which grant Buzzwole a means to preserve its longevity, while Rocky Helmet gives it a way to punish Weavile. Its offensive presence makes it less passive than other walls, which makes Buzzwole a ready counter for Weavile.
  • Toxapex is a staple of the tier and a well rounded defensive asset to many teams. As with other more passive defensive counters, it is important to manage Toxapex appropriately in the face of offensive threats like Weavile. Toxapex resists Weavile's Ice-type STABs, while managing Knock Off or Beat Up through careful defensive play. Items such as Black Sludge, Rocky Helmet, and Eject Button directly benefit Toxapax, by preserving its longevity, punishing Weavile, or gaining momentum. While passive, its coverage and recovery allow Toxapex to slowly dismantle Weavile.
  • Tapu Fini, much like the former two, possesses solid bulk in addition to great defensive typing, which resists both of Weavile's STABs. Unlike Toxapex, as a defensive Water-type it isn't nearly as passive-- though, it also needs to play equally as carefully due to its lack of consistent recovery. Items such as Leftovers are most common and preserve Tapu Fini's longevity, while Choice Scarf offers Tapu Fini speed control and a way to cripple incoming counters and checks. Its defensive profile and wide movepool afford it sets like Calm Mind, which quickly turn it into a threatening win condition and counter to Weavile.
(These discount the situationals and partners of Weavile, which may vary. However, most of the time these apply).

Checks

:urshifu-rapid-strike: :kartana: :Clefable: :ninetales-alola: :tapu koko: :zeraora: :regieleki: :Tapu lele:
:Blacephalon: :Blaziken: :Tyranitar: :scizor: :volcarona: :Heatran:
:ferrothorn: :slowbro: :magnezone: :melmetal:
:barraskewda: :weavile:

A check is defined as "a Pokémon which can- when given a free switch into the opposing Pokemon- win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." There are a number of these Pokemon in the tier, which have both the offensive and defensive profiles which allow them to consistently check Weavile-- most appearing with both variety and ubiquity.

Though most of these offer some form of counterplay for Weavile in the tier (including itself), some are more set and / or coverage dependent. Without their set or coverage, they are overall more vulnerable to Weavile. This can reduce the overall effectiveness of the checks, which is significant to their role. For instance, Kartana, Clefable, Tapu Lele, Blacephalon, and Slowbro may be overall more vulnerable due to their item or set dependency.

Hazards
(No, not entry hazards).

:Volcarona: :Heatran: :Zapdos: :ferrothorn:
:garchomp: :corviknight: :toxapex: :Buzzwole:
:slowbro: :magnezone: :melmetal:

Hazards refer Pokemon associated with risk in making contact with, by attempting to chunk / dent, due to their ability to lure or cripple Weavile with contact effects and damage reducing berries. Making contact with Volcarona, Heatran, or Zapdos can result in Burns or Paralysis, while Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Corviknight, Toxapex, Buzzwole, Slowbro, and Magnezone can wear it down with Rocky Helmet in addition to abilities such as Iron Barbs or Rough Skin. Those such as Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Slowbro, Magnezone, and Melmetal are capable of running damage reducing berries which lure Weavile or prevent it from stopping their sweep.

Weather

:Pelipper: :ninetales-alola: :torkoal: ( :Tyranitar: / :hippowdon: )
:barraskewda: :seismitoad: :Arctozolt: :Venusaur: :Excadrill: :dracozolt:
Weather is an overall great way of reducing matchup fishing in most cases, with members which proactively check Weavile. Though this refers to a specific playstyle rather than select Pokemon, the offensive output in combination with members which check Weavile make Weather teams a great way out-offense it.

--

2. I'm enjoying building with Weavile a lot, it's a great sweeper and breaker which fits on a lot of teamstyles and has decent role compression. In fact, there are few times where I don't build with it because of how stupidly simple teambuilding can be, and because of how offensively potent it is.​
3. I see Weavile quite a lot on ladder, even though I'm not exactly at a high ELO. Weavile's splashability makes it a present threat in the tier, which its usage reflects.​
4. There are a couple good sets, but I feel that the best Weavile set is Swords Dance. It can afford to run a variety of items, though the most important is Heavy-Duty Boots, which preserves its longevity and makes it a menace in the late game. Other items reduce this longevity, including its next best set, Choice Band. While Choice Band is a very good set which affords a lot of coverage and damage, the value that Heavy-Duty Boots gives Weavile in a game (in addition to not being choice-locked) makes Swords Dance that much better overall.​
5. To some degree, I believe Weavile forces you to build against it. This isn't unlike other threats of the tier, and to some degree it works towards the builder's advantage because Weavile is so common and encourages counterplay.​
Thanks for sharing!

--

As for other comments:

I was (mostly) joking with the Dracovish comment. I was simply riffing on the fact that people were talking about the new abomination fossil mons being better for hail than sand by pointing out that sand didn't get its main new toy due to its big mouth.

But you're arguing that Vish would be broken because it can KO a bunch of offensive threats under sand with choice band? I have some bad news for you on that front:

252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 355-418 (87.8 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Rain: 330-388 (81.6 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's only slightly more powerful than Barraskewda in rain. And Barraskewda has flip turn to wear down counters and way more attack so its coverage options actually do damage.

Sand Rush Dracovish would be balanced in OU. It's banned purely due to strong jaw.

(And yes I know complex bans blah de blah, I completely understand why they're not done, but let a man dream of his Vish teaming up with its big thigh deformed brethren Zolt to play in the sand together)
The thing about restricting abilities, items, or moves on certain Pokemon like Dracovish is that it crosses into complex ban territory, which we have covered before in detail. The overall philosophy of restricting certain play is to remove uncompetitive aspects as a whole and simulate a balanced environment, rather than selectively targeting one thing by adding or subtracting from it which deviates from the standard mechanics of a generation.

Of course, I think you know this, but I wanted to get my thoughts out of the way.

--

As for Gen 9, one of my hopes is to have Hidden Power and other removed moves restored. As much as I completely despised Hidden Power for being a coverage cheat code, I think it can be balanced out to only be available on certain Pokemon, and with certain typing. Other moves like Pursuit and Return / Frustration could also be reworked, so that they are included and balanced aspects of the game.
 
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--

1). For something with a reputation of being a devastating breaker and cleaner with good overall role compression and utility, I feel as though public opinion often gives Weavile the long end of the stick more often than it deserves. Its tools offer it a variety of sets and spreads, but they are linear, which means that most of its checks and counters don't have to do anything crazy to impede any individual set. This makes Weavile overall more manageable, and also allows for some of its usual targets to prepare for it from the preview rather than devising more complicated means of removing it.​

Counters

:ss/buzzwole: :ss/Toxapex: :ss/tapu fini:

A counter is defined as "a Pokemon which can manually switch into an opposing Pokemon and still win every time, even under the worst scenario, without factoring in hax.", which Buzzwole, Toxapex, and Tapu Fini appropriately fit the bill of. Their defensive profiles give them consistent ways of dealing with Weavile, and their versatility affords them the ability to fit onto many team structures without subtracting from the team overall.
  • Buzzwole is a physical wall, whose high physical bulk proves to handle Weavile consistently. Buzzwole resists both of its STABs, in addition to having access to Roost which gives it a steady source of recovery. Defensive sets use items such as Leftovers and Heavy-duty Boots, which grant Buzzwole a means to preserve its longevity, while Rocky Helmet gives it a way to punish Weavile. Its offensive presence makes it less passive than other walls, which makes Buzzwole a ready counter for Weavile.
  • Toxapex is a staple of the tier and a well rounded defensive asset to many teams. As with other more passive defensive counters, it is important to manage Toxapex appropriately in the face of offensive threats like Weavile. Toxapex resists Weavile's Ice-type STABs, while managing Knock Off or Beat Up through careful defensive play. Items such as Black Sludge, Rocky Helmet, and Eject Button directly benefit Toxapax, by preserving its longevity, punishing Weavile, or gaining momentum. While passive, its coverage and recovery allow Toxapex to slowly dismantle Weavile.
  • Tapu Fini, much like the former two, possesses solid bulk in addition to great defensive typing, which resists both of Weavile's STABs. Unlike Toxapex, as a defensive Water-type it isn't nearly as passive-- though, it also needs to play equally as carefully due to its lack of consistent recovery. Items such as Leftovers are most common and preserve Tapu Fini's longevity, while Choice Scarf offers Tapu Fini speed control and a way to cripple incoming counters and checks. Its defensive profile and wide movepool afford it sets like Calm Mind, which quickly turn it into a threatening win condition and counter to Weavile.
(These discount the situationals and partners of Weavile, which may vary in effect of the situation. However, most of the time these apply).

Checks

:urshifu-rapid-strike: :kartana: :Clefable: :ninetales-alola: :tapu koko: :zeraora: :regieleki: :Tapu lele:
:Blacephalon: :Blaziken: :Tyranitar: :scizor: :volcarona: :Heatran:
:ferrothorn: :slowbro: :magnezone: :melmetal:
:barraskewda: :weavile:

A check is defined as "a Pokémon which can- when given a free switch into the opposing Pokemon- win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." There are a number of these Pokemon in the tier, which have both the offensive and defensive profiles which allow them to consistently check Weavile-- most appearing with both variety and ubiquity.

Though most of these offer some form of counterplay for Weavile in the tier (including itself), some are more set and / or coverage dependent. Without their set or coverage, they are overall more vulnerable to Weavile. This can reduce the overall effectiveness of the checks, which is significant to their role. For instance, Kartana, Clefable, Tapu Lele, Blacephalon, and Slowbro may be overall more vulnerable due to their item or set dependency.

Hazards
(No, not entry hazards).

:Volcarona: :Heatran: :Zapdos: :ferrothorn:
:garchomp: :corviknight: :toxapex: :Buzzwole:
:slowbro: :magnezone: :melmetal:

Hazards refer Pokemon associated with risk in making contact with, by attempting to chunk / dent, due to their ability to lure or cripple Weavile with contact effects and damage reducing berries. Making contact with Volcarona, Heatran, or Zapdos can result in Burns or Paralysis, while Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Corviknight, Toxapex, Buzzwole, Slowbro, and Magnezone can wear it down with Rocky Helmet in addition to abilities such as Iron Barbs or Rough Skin. Those such as Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Slowbro, Magnezone, and Melmetal are capable of running damage reducing berries which lure Weavile or prevent it from stopping their sweep.

Weather

:Pelipper: :ninetales-alola: :torkoal: ( :Tyranitar: / :hippowdon: )
:barraskewda: :seismitoad: :Arctozolt: :Venusaur: :Excadrill: :dracozolt:
Weather is an overall great way of reducing matchup fishing in most cases, with members which proactively check Weavile. Though this refers to a specific playstyle rather than select Pokemon, the offensive output in combination with members which check Weavile make Weather teams a great way out-offense it.

--

2. I'm enjoying building with Weavile a lot, it's a great sweeper and breaker which fits on a lot of teamstyles and has decent role compression. In fact, there are few times where I don't build with it because of how stupidly simple teambuilding can be, and because of how offensively potent it is.​
3. I see Weavile quite a lot on ladder, even though I'm not exactly at a high ELO. Weavile's splashability makes it a present threat in the tier, which its usage reflects.​
4. There are a couple good sets, but I feel that the best Weavile set is Swords Dance. It can afford to run a variety of items, though the most important is Heavy-Duty Boots, which preserves its longevity and makes it a menace in the late game. Other items reduce this longevity, including its next bets set, Choice Band. While Choice Band is a very good set which affords a lot of coverage and damage, the value that Heavy-Duty Boots gives Weavile in a game (in addition to not being choice-locked) makes Swords Dance that much better overall.​
5. To some degree, I believe Weavile forces you to build against it. This isn't unlike other threats of the tier, and to some degree it works towards the builder's advantage because Weavile is so common and encourages counterplay.​
Thanks for sharing!

--

As for other comments:


The thing about restricting abilities, items, or moves on certain Pokemon like Dracovish is that it crosses into complex ban territory, which we have covered before in detail. The overall philosophy of restricting certain play is to remove uncompetitive aspects as a whole and simulate a balanced environment, rather than selectively targeting one thing by adding or subtracting from it which deviates from the standard mechanics of a generation.

Of course, I think you know this, but I wanted to get my thoughts out of the way.

--

As for Gen 9, one of my hopes is to have Hidden Power and other removed moves restored. As much as I completely despised Hidden Power for being a coverage cheat code, I think it can be balanced out to only be available on certain Pokemon, and with certain typing. Other moves like Pursuit and Return / Frustration could also be reworked, so that they are included and balanced aspects of the game.
One thing I want to say is that buzzwole only counters the hdb set and that it doesn't resist ice, only dark.
252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 228-273 (58 - 69.4%) -- approx. 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 399-471 (101.5 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
--

1). For something with a reputation of being a devastating breaker and cleaner with good overall role compression and utility, I feel as though public opinion often gives Weavile the long end of the stick more often than it deserves. Its tools offer it a variety of sets and spreads, but they are linear, which means that most of its checks and counters don't have to do anything crazy to impede any individual set. This makes Weavile overall more manageable, and also allows for some of its usual targets to prepare for it from the preview rather than devising more complicated means of removing it.​

Counters

:ss/buzzwole: :ss/Toxapex: :ss/tapu fini:

A counter is defined as "a Pokemon which can manually switch into an opposing Pokemon and still win every time, even under the worst scenario, without factoring in hax.", which Buzzwole, Toxapex, and Tapu Fini appropriately fit the bill of. Their defensive profiles give them consistent ways of dealing with Weavile, and their versatility affords them the ability to fit onto many team structures without subtracting from the team overall.
  • Buzzwole is a physical wall, whose high physical bulk proves to handle Weavile consistently. Buzzwole resists both of its STABs, in addition to having access to Roost which gives it a steady source of recovery. Defensive sets use items such as Leftovers and Heavy-duty Boots, which grant Buzzwole a means to preserve its longevity, while Rocky Helmet gives it a way to punish Weavile. Its offensive presence makes it less passive than other walls, which makes Buzzwole a ready counter for Weavile.
  • Toxapex is a staple of the tier and a well rounded defensive asset to many teams. As with other more passive defensive counters, it is important to manage Toxapex appropriately in the face of offensive threats like Weavile. Toxapex resists Weavile's Ice-type STABs, while managing Knock Off or Beat Up through careful defensive play. Items such as Black Sludge, Rocky Helmet, and Eject Button directly benefit Toxapax, by preserving its longevity, punishing Weavile, or gaining momentum. While passive, its coverage and recovery allow Toxapex to slowly dismantle Weavile.
  • Tapu Fini, much like the former two, possesses solid bulk in addition to great defensive typing, which resists both of Weavile's STABs. Unlike Toxapex, as a defensive Water-type it isn't nearly as passive-- though, it also needs to play equally as carefully due to its lack of consistent recovery. Items such as Leftovers are most common and preserve Tapu Fini's longevity, while Choice Scarf offers Tapu Fini speed control and a way to cripple incoming counters and checks. Its defensive profile and wide movepool afford it sets like Calm Mind, which quickly turn it into a threatening win condition and counter to Weavile.
(These discount the situationals and partners of Weavile, which may vary in effect of the situation. However, most of the time these apply).

Checks

:urshifu-rapid-strike: :kartana: :Clefable: :ninetales-alola: :tapu koko: :zeraora: :regieleki: :Tapu lele:
:Blacephalon: :Blaziken: :Tyranitar: :scizor: :volcarona: :Heatran:
:ferrothorn: :slowbro: :magnezone: :melmetal:
:barraskewda: :weavile:

A check is defined as "a Pokémon which can- when given a free switch into the opposing Pokemon- win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." There are a number of these Pokemon in the tier, which have both the offensive and defensive profiles which allow them to consistently check Weavile-- most appearing with both variety and ubiquity.

Though most of these offer some form of counterplay for Weavile in the tier (including itself), some are more set and / or coverage dependent. Without their set or coverage, they are overall more vulnerable to Weavile. This can reduce the overall effectiveness of the checks, which is significant to their role. For instance, Kartana, Clefable, Tapu Lele, Blacephalon, and Slowbro may be overall more vulnerable due to their item or set dependency.

Hazards
(No, not entry hazards).

:Volcarona: :Heatran: :Zapdos: :ferrothorn:
:garchomp: :corviknight: :toxapex: :Buzzwole:
:slowbro: :magnezone: :melmetal:

Hazards refer Pokemon associated with risk in making contact with, by attempting to chunk / dent, due to their ability to lure or cripple Weavile with contact effects and damage reducing berries. Making contact with Volcarona, Heatran, or Zapdos can result in Burns or Paralysis, while Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Corviknight, Toxapex, Buzzwole, Slowbro, and Magnezone can wear it down with Rocky Helmet in addition to abilities such as Iron Barbs or Rough Skin. Those such as Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Slowbro, Magnezone, and Melmetal are capable of running damage reducing berries which lure Weavile or prevent it from stopping their sweep.

Weather

:Pelipper: :ninetales-alola: :torkoal: ( :Tyranitar: / :hippowdon: )
:barraskewda: :seismitoad: :Arctozolt: :Venusaur: :Excadrill: :dracozolt:
Weather is an overall great way of reducing matchup fishing in most cases, with members which proactively check Weavile. Though this refers to a specific playstyle rather than select Pokemon, the offensive output in combination with members which check Weavile make Weather teams a great way out-offense it.

--

2. I'm enjoying building with Weavile a lot, it's a great sweeper and breaker which fits on a lot of teamstyles and has decent role compression. In fact, there are few times where I don't build with it because of how stupidly simple teambuilding can be, and because of how offensively potent it is.​
3. I see Weavile quite a lot on ladder, even though I'm not exactly at a high ELO. Weavile's splashability makes it a present threat in the tier, which its usage reflects.​
4. There are a couple good sets, but I feel that the best Weavile set is Swords Dance. It can afford to run a variety of items, though the most important is Heavy-Duty Boots, which preserves its longevity and makes it a menace in the late game. Other items reduce this longevity, including its next bets set, Choice Band. While Choice Band is a very good set which affords a lot of coverage and damage, the value that Heavy-Duty Boots gives Weavile in a game (in addition to not being choice-locked) makes Swords Dance that much better overall.​
5. To some degree, I believe Weavile forces you to build against it. This isn't unlike other threats of the tier, and to some degree it works towards the builder's advantage because Weavile is so common and encourages counterplay.​
Thanks for sharing!
when I asked for thoughts I didn't expect a 6 paragraph essay..
Joking aside, I mostly agree with your thoughts, except I feel that banded Weavile is the better set.
Banded lets weavile 2HKO things it should have absolutely NO business KOing, and can come in on a lot. The weakness to entry hazards does hurt quite a bit, but honestly, I haven't had as much hazard pressure in this meta where I feel that defogging has downsides. The only times I've really had problems with defogging is when I'm against mons like Bish and Gapdos.
Banded weavile can do some absolutely insane feats like 2HKOing buzzwall, and possibly even corv if its not running physdef.
also now i just had the worst idea of pads weavile to ignore rocky helm and flame body tran
im going to make this a set now brb

its going to be terrible bc it doesnt have the raw strength of band nor the staying power of hdb but idc

Banded beat up is also just extremely fun

Why do you think that sd hdb is better than band? I'm asking for an opinion, not to be rude or anything
 
when I asked for thoughts I didn't expect a 6 paragraph essay..
Joking aside, I mostly agree with your thoughts, except I feel that banded Weavile is the better set.
Banded lets weavile 2HKO things it should have absolutely NO business KOing, and can come in on a lot. The weakness to entry hazards does hurt quite a bit, but honestly, I haven't had as much hazard pressure in this meta where I feel that defogging has downsides. The only times I've really had problems with defogging is when I'm against mons like Bish and Gapdos.
Banded weavile can do some absolutely insane feats like 2HKOing buzzwall, and possibly even corv if its not running physdef.
also now i just had the worst idea of pads weavile to ignore rocky helm and flame body tran
im going to make this a set now brb

its going to be terrible bc it doesnt have the raw strength of band nor the staying power of hdb but idc

Banded beat up is also just extremely fun

Why do you think that sd hdb is better than band? I'm asking for an opinion, not to be rude or anything

As I mentioned, Heavy-Duty Boots preserves Weavile's longevity and makes it a better endgame sweeper. A few months ago I would have agreed that Band was the overall better set due to the immediate power and how unprepared some teams were for it, but over the course of the last few months the meta has shifted a lot and counterplay has seemingly adjusted to it. Plus, being choice-locked really doesn't help, although sets with Beat Up are rather strong but they are team dependent. Other Choice Band coverage like Low Kick or Poison Jab is somewhat comparable to replacing a slot on Heavy-Duty Boots, and with the added power of Swords Dance it's a little more intimidating with added benefit of luring certain checks.
 
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