I mean no offense but you're really asking for Drago to be blacklisted at this point. It's been thoroughly discussed and the general consensus at least from the council was to keep it unranked.
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Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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I mean no offense but you're really asking for Drago to be blacklisted at this point. It's been thoroughly discussed and the general consensus at least from the council was to keep it unranked.
Regidrago Dragon Energy vs. Clefable: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Also, why is this thread so obsessed with stall? It is pitiful in the metagame right now (yes, this can be subject to change) and only used to farm in mid-ladder. If your argument centers around "x beats stall", then you need to recenter your argument. Stall is not beaten by individual Pokemon unless the stall is bad or the player is bad. It is not something you just "cover" with a singular Pokemon -- it is an archetype defeated by outplaying and cohesive team construction like pretty much everything else.
Pieces to the puzzle like FuturePort, item displacement, positioning, and so on compliment breakers in the battle on stall, but it's not something you just take a singular swing at with a Pokemon and defeat. Regidrago does not have a niche, let alone one for 6-0ing stall without Fairy types, because stall is not actually good, stall without fairy types even worse, and why sacrifice your team in every other regard when there are more practical approaches that generate the same result? We cannot be wasting pages on this. I will move it to blacklist if I must.
Pieces to the puzzle like FuturePort, item displacement, positioning, and so on compliment breakers in the battle on stall, but it's not something you just take a singular swing at with a Pokemon and defeat. Regidrago does not have a niche, let alone one for 6-0ing stall without Fairy types, because stall is not actually good, stall without fairy types even worse, and why sacrifice your team in every other regard when there are more practical approaches that generate the same result? We cannot be wasting pages on this. I will move it to blacklist if I must.
Honestly this obsession with stall probably stems from past experiences from players in low-mid ladder where they got their asses handed to them by stall and it is much more impactful losing to that than losing vs some offense, as it makes you feel kinda hopeless. Leaving like mental scars in the players souls which makes them declare the war on stall from that point onwards. I myself used to be like that , but not anymore. Nowadays when I ladder, it's very rare for me to actually get matched up vs stall, granted I haven't laddered in like a week.
i don’t think that any mons are disgustingly overrated but there’s one i just want to talk about. it’s not even a bad mon, nor is it one that warrants a drop (as of right now), but i would like to discuss it in detail bc it’s been bothering me for a while now:
it’s just so damn passive…most of the other bulky waters can provide some sort of offensive support, such as the slow twins‘ future sight and fini’s ability to trap and remove passive mons like blissey, and, well, toxapex itself. its HP leaves a lot to be desired, as it isn’t high enough for pex to truly utilize the full potential of its huge defenses (although let’s just be grateful that it doesn’t have a good or even decent HP stat). walling urshifu-r and weavile is nice until you realize that fini does the same thing and isn’t a sitting duck against them, and bro can run a very effective colbur berry + body press set to dispatch weavile, as well as being able to always check urshifu-r. this thing is a huge momentum vacuum and forces no progress whatsoever. again, pex is a good pokemon, and the defensive support it provides is invaluable, but that’s all it brings to the table: defense. when you’re in need of a bulky water type, there are other options that aren’t complete deadweights against any pokemon without paper-thin defenses.
now, as for mons i find to be underrated? honestly there’s a lot that definitely have the tools to be effective, and when given the opportunity to shine, they absolutely run off with it. here’s a few mons that definitely deserve a closer look at in terms of viability:
this mf just kills shit left and right. literally no safe switch-ins barring the incredibly passive and rather uncommon blissey and maybe slowking. combine its ridiculous damage output with near unparalleled coverage with it being able to run two of flamethrower, ice beam, surf, thunderbolt, focus blast, and shadow ball, and you have a devastating special wallbreaker on your hands. B+ seems good for it, but i could even see a rise to A-, it’s just that ridiculously powerful.
HDB was a godsend for this thing. being able to preserve multiscale without having to worry about hazards just lets dragonite set up as much dragon dances as he pleases. weavile running triple axel and garchomp running scale shot can be a problem, but the inconsistency of those moves shouldn’t hinder nite too much. if it gets the opportunity to set up, it can devastate teams with ease. overall, dd nite has become more potent than ever with the addition of HDB, and i could foresee it rising to A in the future.
paper-thin defenses and a weakness to stealth rock leave a lot to be desired, but when you look past that, you can see that it has sky-high offenses and a very respectable speed tier, allowing it to function as either a late-game cleaner with choice scarf or a devastating wallbreaker with choice specs. its access to trick narrows its list of counters even further, as none of them appreciate being locked into a choice item. A seems reasonable for blacephalon, it doesn’t have a lot of variety in what it does, but it just does it so well that it definitely could be moved up to A rank.
what the hell is this mon doing in A? sky-high special attack, access to tons of coverage moves to force the opponent to play mind-games as to what coverage it has, and an ability that boosts its STAB to even higher levels? in A? bump this mf up to A+, tapu lele is just flat-out ridiculous in its wallbreaking capabilities. it can literally destroy anything it comes across with specs or clean up teams with impunity with scarf. lele literally just come in and kills shit. the other 3 i mentioned could use some team support or set-up to get going, but lele just switches in and claims at least one kill before switching out or getting taken out.
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While I agree somewhat with what other people have said about losing to stall being so much more soul crushing than say, offense. I want to add one thing most people say is that haxorus's niche in the meta game(and the reason it's c- by extension) is it's great matchup against stall for HO. Now I'm not saying UR haxorus, I'm just saying that's why most people say you would ever use it over garchomp. Also not saying regidrago should be ranked or that it even beats stall.
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Well while Garchomp almost entirely outclasses Hax, the difference is Hax has a real niche in the metagame. Many good stall teams have unaware clef so it's not like drago universally destroys stall, and there are other issues it will confront. Haxorus may be an inferior garchomp overall, but it does actually pretty consistently break most stall with some support unlike Regidrago, and in addition it can viably become a sweeper on HO that isn't as easily revenged as Garchomp in some situations thanks to resistances to grassy glide, not being x4 weak to ice shard, and the other unique resistances of mono dragon.
ignore that mobile smogon is awful and made me post this when i was barely started
sincerely, i couldn’t care less about regidrago. it’s funny how pages of discussion were wasted on “is this UR mon barely rankable?”
anyways..
S- -> S
i agree with the sentiments here that heatran deserves to be a full-on S rank. as both an offensive and defensive presence, it is absolutely meta-defining. it only has one or two bad matchups and will always find a way to make progress. while it doesn’t have the perfect splashability of landorus-t, it is still fairly easy to put onto a team due to its incredible defensive benefits. basically, this is just echoing the sentiments of other players.
A -> A (Stay A)
i don’t get the lele hype at all.
i see tons of people claiming that lele is super great and an A+ worthy mon, but personally, i think A is perfectly suitable. while on paper, it has little to no reliable switch ins, in practice, steels usually get the job done well enough. both sets have their share of flaws, lele is easily revenge killed due to its middling speed tier and awkward bulk, while scarf sets have actual switch ins, and while scarf lele is meant to be a cleaner, i just think there are better alternatives for cleaners on offense (not saying it’s bad at all, it’s fantastic don’t get me wrong, all i’m saying is that it faces some competition as a scarfer/cleaner).
A -> A-
volcarona is in a super awkward spot right now. while it is still super hard to switch into if you aren’t cautious enough, i just feel like most teams are well equipped enough to handle volcarona, mainly with stuff like heatran and tapu fini. i don’t have much else to say here, it just kinda fell off
B+ -> B/B-/C+
mew is not good guys. the only good set is the suicide lead set, which is fine, but otherwise, mew is pretty damn bad. cosmic power sets are all but bad cheese gimmicks that rarely work in a meta where weavile is so prevalent and where’s there has not been this much offensive pressure from the metagame in a while. other set-up variants are just plain bad, since 100 in both offensive stats is not good. returning to the suicide lead, it’s fine, but most of the time, i find that HO operates just fine with alternative hazard setters.
B -> B-/C+
cloyster does definitely have a niche, it’s a good part of hyper offensive teams and it’s very hard to face late game. however, B is probably somewhat pushing it. i just feel like the general inconsistency of shell smash strategies hinders it greatly as a whole. it also still doesn’t like steels, but this time it can’t flinch them out of existence!
there might be more, idk.
sincerely, i couldn’t care less about regidrago. it’s funny how pages of discussion were wasted on “is this UR mon barely rankable?”
anyways..
S- -> S
i agree with the sentiments here that heatran deserves to be a full-on S rank. as both an offensive and defensive presence, it is absolutely meta-defining. it only has one or two bad matchups and will always find a way to make progress. while it doesn’t have the perfect splashability of landorus-t, it is still fairly easy to put onto a team due to its incredible defensive benefits. basically, this is just echoing the sentiments of other players.
A -> A (Stay A)
i don’t get the lele hype at all.
i see tons of people claiming that lele is super great and an A+ worthy mon, but personally, i think A is perfectly suitable. while on paper, it has little to no reliable switch ins, in practice, steels usually get the job done well enough. both sets have their share of flaws, lele is easily revenge killed due to its middling speed tier and awkward bulk, while scarf sets have actual switch ins, and while scarf lele is meant to be a cleaner, i just think there are better alternatives for cleaners on offense (not saying it’s bad at all, it’s fantastic don’t get me wrong, all i’m saying is that it faces some competition as a scarfer/cleaner).
A -> A-
volcarona is in a super awkward spot right now. while it is still super hard to switch into if you aren’t cautious enough, i just feel like most teams are well equipped enough to handle volcarona, mainly with stuff like heatran and tapu fini. i don’t have much else to say here, it just kinda fell off
B+ -> B/B-/C+
mew is not good guys. the only good set is the suicide lead set, which is fine, but otherwise, mew is pretty damn bad. cosmic power sets are all but bad cheese gimmicks that rarely work in a meta where weavile is so prevalent and where’s there has not been this much offensive pressure from the metagame in a while. other set-up variants are just plain bad, since 100 in both offensive stats is not good. returning to the suicide lead, it’s fine, but most of the time, i find that HO operates just fine with alternative hazard setters.
B -> B-/C+
cloyster does definitely have a niche, it’s a good part of hyper offensive teams and it’s very hard to face late game. however, B is probably somewhat pushing it. i just feel like the general inconsistency of shell smash strategies hinders it greatly as a whole. it also still doesn’t like steels, but this time it can’t flinch them out of existence!
there might be more, idk.
I agree with this, I was just pointing out a reason why people may be so obsessed with stall as an archetype, and giving an example of a mon that newer players may not understand has more to it that is known for having a good stall matchup.
ignore that mobile smogon is awful and made me post this when i was barely started
sincerely, i couldn’t care less about regidrago. it’s funny how pages of discussion were wasted on “is this UR mon barely rankable?”
anyways..
S- -> S
i agree with the sentiments here that heatran deserves to be a full-on S rank. as both an offensive and defensive presence, it is absolutely meta-defining. it only has one or two bad matchups and will always find a way to make progress. while it doesn’t have the perfect splashability of landorus-t, it is still fairly easy to put onto a team due to its incredible defensive benefits. basically, this is just echoing the sentiments of other players.
A -> A (Stay A)
i don’t get the lele hype at all.
i see tons of people claiming that lele is super great and an A+ worthy mon, but personally, i think A is perfectly suitable. while on paper, it has little to no reliable switch ins, in practice, steels usually get the job done well enough. both sets have their share of flaws, lele is easily revenge killed due to its middling speed tier and awkward bulk, while scarf sets have actual switch ins, and while scarf lele is meant to be a cleaner, i just think there are better alternatives for cleaners on offense (not saying it’s bad at all, it’s fantastic don’t get me wrong, all i’m saying is that it faces some competition as a scarfer/cleaner).
A -> A-
volcarona is in a super awkward spot right now. while it is still super hard to switch into if you aren’t cautious enough, i just feel like most teams are well equipped enough to handle volcarona, mainly with stuff like heatran and tapu fini. i don’t have much else to say here, it just kinda fell off
B+ -> B/B-/C+
mew is not good guys. the only good set is the suicide lead set, which is fine, but otherwise, mew is pretty damn bad. cosmic power sets are all but bad cheese gimmicks that rarely work in a meta where weavile is so prevalent and where’s there has not been this much offensive pressure from the metagame in a while. other set-up variants are just plain bad, since 100 in both offensive stats is not good. returning to the suicide lead, it’s fine, but most of the time, i find that HO operates just fine with alternative hazard setters.
B -> B-/C+
cloyster does definitely have a niche, it’s a good part of hyper offensive teams and it’s very hard to face late game. however, B is probably somewhat pushing it. i just feel like the general inconsistency of shell smash strategies hinders it greatly as a whole. it also still doesn’t like steels, but this time it can’t flinch them out of existence!
there might be more, idk.
Mew should stay where it is, probably the best crit-me-not wincon we have in ou right now.
Lele is debatable, but steels aren't super safe against focus blast. Probably barely A+ in my mind.
Other than that, nothing I really disagree with here.
while this may be true, it still doesn’t stop demon mew from being super fishy and relying on bad play to win imo. also again, the influx of weavile, kart, etc. on the tier is super irritating for it as well, as it pretty much can’t do anything to it unless it runs body press, which in that case, it’s super vulnerable to status. demon mew 4mss is really bad for it as well, since you want cp/stored power/taunt/roost/body press at the same time, but you just can’t, which is pretty irritating.
y’all mind if I drop a few more noms here
- S- -> S
wow, another ”heatran is S tier” nom, how original of you, corvi. jokes aside, i genuinely don’t know what else there is to say about heatran that hasn’t been said a million times before. extremely splashable, hard to switch into, provides invaluable team support, exerts tons of offensive pressure, etc etc. without a doubt an S rank pokemon, and i think everyone can agree with that sentiment.
- A+ -> S-
torn-t, the best defogger in the tier bar none. also extremely versatile in how he can function. you have the standard defog set which provides invaluable utility for your team, as well as the nasty plot set, mixed wallbreaker set, assault vest set, and much more. access to regenerator and a fast u-turn only makes it even better as a pivot, as it can u-turn out of a bad MU, such as weavile, and bring in a teammate who can reliably handle it, while healing off torn is overall definitely worthy of S- imo.
- A+ -> S-
when people look for defensive ground types, they turn to landorus-therain, but garchomp has always been the best offensive ground type ever since its introduction in gen 4. the scale shot set is a fierce wallbreaker that becomes increasingly hard to revenge kill (without priority ofc), with the only safe switch-in being the metal birds, and even then, that’s assuming they don’t get crit or eat chip damage. hell, chomp can even run a tanky set that utilizes its solid defensive typing, good natural bulk and access to utility moves, and it does it well. the amount of roles it can fill definitely warrants a rise to S-.
- A+ -> S-
the amount of offensive support futureport provides is ridiculous. not only does it pressure the opponent, it also brings in one of slowbro’s strong, hard-hitting teammates safely. being able to give the likes of melmetal the ability to break past its checks is simply absurd. while slowbro itself isn’t exactly the strongest mon in the tier, it’s no slouch either with its decent special attack stat of 100. if you’re in need of a bulky water that can support the deadly wallbreakers your team has, bro as well as slowking are always reliable options. and before I continue on, let me just say that all the other pokemon i talked about in my top 10 are also considerations for S-.
- A -> A+
a unique defensive typing as well as huge coverage and a solid special attack stat, and you have a mon that is always a consideration if your team lacks an answer to fairies. its high HP and special defense when combined with assault vest makes glowking into a nigh insurmountable special wall with enough firepower to justify using, unlike a certain pink blob. honestly a hella underrated mon, and one worthy of A+
- B+ -> A-
can either be a special wall that blanket checks special attackers or a terrifying wallbreaker with choice band. the specially defensive set is effective at checking the likes of pult, koko, volcarona, and other pokemon, but i want to talk about how utterly devastating the CB set is. this thing deadass 2HKOs the entire meta. like, i’m not kidding, here are the calcs I made to show how destructive this beast is.
- -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 308-364 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 169-199 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 55.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 189-223 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
even the likes of buzz, hippo and tang get 2HKOed if they get chipped. this thing is utterly insane when it comes to dealing damage. move it to A-, this mf is a monster.
- B -> B+
in a metagame riddled with powerful ghost types, aegislash isn’t the first that usually comes to mind. but imo, it can be effective by virtue of its excellent stats. being able to move between 140 / 140 defenses and 140 / 140 offenses allows for aegislash to survive a hit with its great defenses, then hit back hard with its great offenses. it can be hard to fit on teams over ghosts such as pult, but it can put out great results with the right team support.
- S- -> Swow, another ”heatran is S tier” nom, how original of you, corvi. jokes aside, i genuinely don’t know what else there is to say about heatran that hasn’t been said a million times before. extremely splashable, hard to switch into, provides invaluable team support, exerts tons of offensive pressure, etc etc. without a doubt an S rank pokemon, and i think everyone can agree with that sentiment.
- A+ -> S-torn-t, the best defogger in the tier bar none. also extremely versatile in how he can function. you have the standard defog set which provides invaluable utility for your team, as well as the nasty plot set, mixed wallbreaker set, assault vest set, and much more. access to regenerator and a fast u-turn only makes it even better as a pivot, as it can u-turn out of a bad MU, such as weavile, and bring in a teammate who can reliably handle it, while healing off torn is overall definitely worthy of S- imo.
- A+ -> S-when people look for defensive ground types, they turn to landorus-therain, but garchomp has always been the best offensive ground type ever since its introduction in gen 4. the scale shot set is a fierce wallbreaker that becomes increasingly hard to revenge kill (without priority ofc), with the only safe switch-in being the metal birds, and even then, that’s assuming they don’t get crit or eat chip damage. hell, chomp can even run a tanky set that utilizes its solid defensive typing, good natural bulk and access to utility moves, and it does it well. the amount of roles it can fill definitely warrants a rise to S-.
- A+ -> S-the amount of offensive support futureport provides is ridiculous. not only does it pressure the opponent, it also brings in one of slowbro’s strong, hard-hitting teammates safely. being able to give the likes of melmetal the ability to break past its checks is simply absurd. while slowbro itself isn’t exactly the strongest mon in the tier, it’s no slouch either with its decent special attack stat of 100. if you’re in need of a bulky water that can support the deadly wallbreakers your team has, bro as well as slowking are always reliable options. and before I continue on, let me just say that all the other pokemon i talked about in my top 10 are also considerations for S-.
- A -> A+a unique defensive typing as well as huge coverage and a solid special attack stat, and you have a mon that is always a consideration if your team lacks an answer to fairies. its high HP and special defense when combined with assault vest makes glowking into a nigh insurmountable special wall with enough firepower to justify using, unlike a certain pink blob. honestly a hella underrated mon, and one worthy of A+
- B+ -> A-can either be a special wall that blanket checks special attackers or a terrifying wallbreaker with choice band. the specially defensive set is effective at checking the likes of pult, koko, volcarona, and other pokemon, but i want to talk about how utterly devastating the CB set is. this thing deadass 2HKOs the entire meta. like, i’m not kidding, here are the calcs I made to show how destructive this beast is.
- -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 308-364 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 169-199 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 55.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 189-223 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
even the likes of buzz, hippo and tang get 2HKOed if they get chipped. this thing is utterly insane when it comes to dealing damage. move it to A-, this mf is a monster.
- B -> B+in a metagame riddled with powerful ghost types, aegislash isn’t the first that usually comes to mind. but imo, it can be effective by virtue of its excellent stats. being able to move between 140 / 140 defenses and 140 / 140 offenses allows for aegislash to survive a hit with its great defenses, then hit back hard with its great offenses. it can be hard to fit on teams over ghosts such as pult, but it can put out great results with the right team support.
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Why is there steel surge in the landorus-therian calc is my question?
Small critique; try and justify more of those rises with metagame relevant information. A lot of that is general-speak which is fine for the basics of a nom, but it's important to add more layers of depth (i.e. current trends, meta, input vs. output, etc.). I emphasize that specifically because it plays directly into how things are ranked, rather than just their general role. Continue as you will though.
Speaking of noms.
Volcarona
A -> A-I'll take this one to my grave if I must, I think A is pushing it for Volcarona right now. Sure, it's a threatening set up sweeper, but in practice it's difficult to facilitate and it's kinda MU fishy. It is stifled by the required support and bulk for appropriately fitting onto anything aside from HO, while bulkier sets are mediocre. An offensively inclined meta with an ongoing popularity of its soft checks makes it easier for the average team to prepare for than was previously commonplace as well. Volcarona is specialized for an offensive niche, which it admittedly excels in, but is just not A worthy.
Cloyster
B -> C+Cloyster jumped the curb and kept riding with this one. It's a fringe pick for HO and nothing more, even with the recent prominence of screens I feel like this was rather ambitious and quite possibly an oversight that needs scaled back.
Scizor
B -> B-Walmart Corviknight. Its defensive sets are subpar at best in most cases and its only other niche is as a screens HO member, which is rather mediocre still. It belongs among the likes of other fringe HO picks like Blaziken or Celesteela (which can occasionally find their way into other builds).
Ninetales-A
A -> A-I've been rather on the fence with this one. It's certainly the best screens setter in the tier with little competition for what it offers, yet I feel like this rank is somewhat bloating it due to how MU fishy HO is and how middle of the road hail has been since it peaked.
Trick Room
/ 
C -> C-They have no legitimate niche in the current meta apart from Trick Room that really makes them outstanding, especially Marowak.
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Couple noms from me
B+ -> A-
On the one hand Nidoking doesn't entirely love the aggressive metagame right now. On the other hand, it tears apart the common defensive structures used to check top threats like Heatran and Weavile, and it also functions pretty damn well with volt/turn/port support that helps it gain way more opportunities consistently.
A- -> B+
I don't care for Corviknight's passivity. With the trend towards more offensive teams, I find it's too easily overwhelmed by what it should be theoretically checking. It just doesn't exert enough pressure imo. TornT is a better overall defogger in most cases that can exert pressure while also providing utility.
B+ -> B/B-
I don't really find Mew worth much of a slot these days. There are better suicide leads and as an offensive threat it's entirely unspectacular, outclassed and just not really strong. It's tough to justify when teams need every slot they have too much, and there are just more consistent choices.
On the one hand Nidoking doesn't entirely love the aggressive metagame right now. On the other hand, it tears apart the common defensive structures used to check top threats like Heatran and Weavile, and it also functions pretty damn well with volt/turn/port support that helps it gain way more opportunities consistently.
A- -> B+I don't care for Corviknight's passivity. With the trend towards more offensive teams, I find it's too easily overwhelmed by what it should be theoretically checking. It just doesn't exert enough pressure imo. TornT is a better overall defogger in most cases that can exert pressure while also providing utility.
B+ -> B/B-I don't really find Mew worth much of a slot these days. There are better suicide leads and as an offensive threat it's entirely unspectacular, outclassed and just not really strong. It's tough to justify when teams need every slot they have too much, and there are just more consistent choices.
Yeah I agree. Defog corviknight is too passive on BO and balance teams and lets in some dangerous mons for free. Tornadus on the other hand can cripple breakers by outrunning most of them and knocking off their critical item. To a lesser extent the same goes for lando , in addition to it being able to toxic stuff. The defog set for corv only really fits on stall where you theoretically have enough defensive switchins , but sadly stall also isn't great these days.
When I see a corviknight I don't fear it if it's defog , but I fear its boosting sets as then it's hard to overwhelm. I wonder if these sets are good enough to help it stay A-
B+ -> A-
I had the same feelings but in my case it mainly down to seeing the standard set all the time and always having a good answer or two. I've come around a bit since using a slow u-turn clay+double screen on offensive teams and after having faced a few agilty/bu/power trip versions while unprepared. The defog set just eases pressure on the opponent so much that you might as well be giving them a free turn.
might as well post more noms, except most of these won’t be as positive as the last ones.
A -> A-
i talked about it earlier but pex is far too passive and faces competition from other bulky waters like bro and fini who can actually pose a threat and support their team in a meaningful way. while at first i didn’t believe that pex should actually drop because of this, with the trend of more offensive teams in the current meta, that means that pex struggles to keep up. this should definitely be a consideration for A-.
A- -> B+
the truth hurts. corviknight is outclassed as a defogger, is incredibly limited in what it can actually check, and is rather passive compared to other defoggers. it’s outdone as a bulky steel by ferrothorn and melmetal, and as a defogger by zapdos and torn-t. while it’s by no means a bad pokemon, it’s definitely one that faces strict competition from other pokemon. i talked about this in my most recent (and now deleted) post on this thread, but corv cannot effectively wall the pokemon it’s supposed to check after it’s been chipped, forcing it to immediately roost on the switch, limiting its effectiveness as a physical wall.
with that being said, this will not stop me from slotting corv onto nearly every team i make, and it shouldn’t stop you either.
A- -> B+
ngl mag is definitely a mon who does not appreciate the removal of hidden power. being unable to guarantee the OHKO on ferrothorn with HP fire is definitely not good, and being forced to slot body press on its specs set to beat it isn’t giving any points in its favor either.
- 4 Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferrothorn: 104-124 (29.5 - 35.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
now of course, it still has the body press set, but imo it’s far too passive and i‘ve found it to be deadweight as soon as it removes the bulky steels on the opposing team. definitely should move this down to B+.
B -> C+
everything i said about corv also applies to this mf’s defensive sets. not to mention that there’s barely anything for scizor to reliably threaten, in a metagame where steel STAB is so easy to stop. a 4x weakness to fire leaving it vulnerable to heatran and the multitude of fire coverage running amok in the tier definitely does not help either. overall, scizor has had a huge fall from grace from its former OU glory, and it’s placement should reflect that.
C -> C-
is primarina powerful as fuck? yes. does that make her worth slotting onto a team over other waters? no. overall, primarina is incredibly niche and is hopelessly outclassed. being slow af while not actually being bulky enough to reliably take strong hits isn’t exactly helping either. she still hits like a freight train with her specs set, but is generally not worth a slot on a team over other water and fairy types.
C- -> UR
what the fuck does quagsire do in the current metagame? i said it about pex, i said it about primarina, and i’ll say it again about quagsire: there are numerous different water types to choose from in the tier, and all of them are far more viable. all in all, quagsire has no niche in the current metagame. it is incredibly passive, only fits on 1 team style, cannot threaten anything at all, and is easily overwhelmed by weavile, garchomp, buzzwole, urshifu-r, melmetal, and many others. literally ever physical breaker barring scizor can all 2HKO quag on the switch after stealth rock. and as i mentioned before, quag only fits on one type of playstyle: stall. so being an already weak, inconsistent pokemon that cannot reliably wall anything and only fits on a team style that kinda sucks as of rn should definitely not be ranked.
B -> B+
yeah, these last few noms are just mons that i forgot to talk about in my other post for reasons i do not know why. with that being said, let’s get right into why i think hydreigon is an underrated powerhouse in OU.
the thing is about hydrei is that you never know what coverage it’s running from team preview. now obviously, dark pulse is a given, and it can be assumed that it has roost for some longevity, but aside from that, there’s no telling as to what this monster has in store for whoever switches into its brutally powerful attacks. it has draco meteor as a secondary STAB option to annihilate damn near anything after a boost, earth power to slam specially defensive heatran thinking it could take draco meteor, flash cannon to dent the fairies who would threaten it with their STAB, fire blast to eviscerate ferrothorn and corviknight switch-ins, u-turn to pivot out of special walls such as blissey, superpower (with some attack investment) to threaten the aforementioned special walls, or even surf/hydro pump to OHKO lando before it can get off rocks to gain an immediate advantage early game. this thing is so versatile in deadly in what it can effectively run. now, unfortunately, its speed tier leaves a lot to be desired, being outsped by garchomp, dragapult, tapu koko, and weavile, all of which outspeed and threaten it immediately, and while its ability and typing provides valuable resists/immunities to fire, water, electric, ghost and ground, its multitude of weakness to equally common attacking types in ice, fighting, and a 4x weakness to fairy definitely hold it back from being even better. make no mistake however, as with the right team support, hydrei can become a fierce offensive threat and is definitely worthy of B+.
C+ -> B
access to a slow flip turn and stealth rock allows swampert to be an effective support mon with the ability to bring in teammates safely. swampert has a great defensive typing, solid bulk, and tons of utility moves. this helps swampert find itself a niche among its fellow bulky waters as a stealth rock setter. having a good matchup against most SR setters is definitely a nice thing to have, allowing it to scare off the heatran or landorus looking to set up stealth rocks early game and set its own entry hazards as they switch. it’s not a great pokemon, but it’s definitely an effective one.
C+ -> B-
tangrowth has tons of resists and fantastic physical bulk, which helps it stave off the offensive powerhouses the tier has to offer, such as urshifu-r, garchomp, zeraora, and kartana. and it’s not exactly passive either, with its 100/110 offenses, it can pose an offensive threat while still providing invaluable defensive utility for its teammates. unfortunately, the one thing truly holding tang back is its typing, which is both a blessing and a curse. resisting water, electric and ground is amazing for a defensive mon, but weaknesses to fire, flying, and ice is never a good thing. while its special defense leaves a lot to be desired, an assault vest set can circumvent its biggest weakness and bolster its bulk even further. overall, while not as effective as the tier’s other bulky grass type in ferrothorn, tangrowth has a solid niche in the current meta and it embraces it fully.
A -> A-i talked about it earlier but pex is far too passive and faces competition from other bulky waters like bro and fini who can actually pose a threat and support their team in a meaningful way. while at first i didn’t believe that pex should actually drop because of this, with the trend of more offensive teams in the current meta, that means that pex struggles to keep up. this should definitely be a consideration for A-.
A- -> B+the truth hurts. corviknight is outclassed as a defogger, is incredibly limited in what it can actually check, and is rather passive compared to other defoggers. it’s outdone as a bulky steel by ferrothorn and melmetal, and as a defogger by zapdos and torn-t. while it’s by no means a bad pokemon, it’s definitely one that faces strict competition from other pokemon. i talked about this in my most recent (and now deleted) post on this thread, but corv cannot effectively wall the pokemon it’s supposed to check after it’s been chipped, forcing it to immediately roost on the switch, limiting its effectiveness as a physical wall.
A- -> B+ngl mag is definitely a mon who does not appreciate the removal of hidden power. being unable to guarantee the OHKO on ferrothorn with HP fire is definitely not good, and being forced to slot body press on its specs set to beat it isn’t giving any points in its favor either.
- 4 Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferrothorn: 104-124 (29.5 - 35.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
now of course, it still has the body press set, but imo it’s far too passive and i‘ve found it to be deadweight as soon as it removes the bulky steels on the opposing team. definitely should move this down to B+.
B -> C+everything i said about corv also applies to this mf’s defensive sets. not to mention that there’s barely anything for scizor to reliably threaten, in a metagame where steel STAB is so easy to stop. a 4x weakness to fire leaving it vulnerable to heatran and the multitude of fire coverage running amok in the tier definitely does not help either. overall, scizor has had a huge fall from grace from its former OU glory, and it’s placement should reflect that.
C -> C-is primarina powerful as fuck? yes. does that make her worth slotting onto a team over other waters? no. overall, primarina is incredibly niche and is hopelessly outclassed. being slow af while not actually being bulky enough to reliably take strong hits isn’t exactly helping either. she still hits like a freight train with her specs set, but is generally not worth a slot on a team over other water and fairy types.
C- -> URwhat the fuck does quagsire do in the current metagame? i said it about pex, i said it about primarina, and i’ll say it again about quagsire: there are numerous different water types to choose from in the tier, and all of them are far more viable. all in all, quagsire has no niche in the current metagame. it is incredibly passive, only fits on 1 team style, cannot threaten anything at all, and is easily overwhelmed by weavile, garchomp, buzzwole, urshifu-r, melmetal, and many others. literally ever physical breaker barring scizor can all 2HKO quag on the switch after stealth rock. and as i mentioned before, quag only fits on one type of playstyle: stall. so being an already weak, inconsistent pokemon that cannot reliably wall anything and only fits on a team style that kinda sucks as of rn should definitely not be ranked.
B -> B+yeah, these last few noms are just mons that i forgot to talk about in my other post for reasons i do not know why. with that being said, let’s get right into why i think hydreigon is an underrated powerhouse in OU.
the thing is about hydrei is that you never know what coverage it’s running from team preview. now obviously, dark pulse is a given, and it can be assumed that it has roost for some longevity, but aside from that, there’s no telling as to what this monster has in store for whoever switches into its brutally powerful attacks. it has draco meteor as a secondary STAB option to annihilate damn near anything after a boost, earth power to slam specially defensive heatran thinking it could take draco meteor, flash cannon to dent the fairies who would threaten it with their STAB, fire blast to eviscerate ferrothorn and corviknight switch-ins, u-turn to pivot out of special walls such as blissey, superpower (with some attack investment) to threaten the aforementioned special walls, or even surf/hydro pump to OHKO lando before it can get off rocks to gain an immediate advantage early game. this thing is so versatile in deadly in what it can effectively run. now, unfortunately, its speed tier leaves a lot to be desired, being outsped by garchomp, dragapult, tapu koko, and weavile, all of which outspeed and threaten it immediately, and while its ability and typing provides valuable resists/immunities to fire, water, electric, ghost and ground, its multitude of weakness to equally common attacking types in ice, fighting, and a 4x weakness to fairy definitely hold it back from being even better. make no mistake however, as with the right team support, hydrei can become a fierce offensive threat and is definitely worthy of B+.
C+ -> Baccess to a slow flip turn and stealth rock allows swampert to be an effective support mon with the ability to bring in teammates safely. swampert has a great defensive typing, solid bulk, and tons of utility moves. this helps swampert find itself a niche among its fellow bulky waters as a stealth rock setter. having a good matchup against most SR setters is definitely a nice thing to have, allowing it to scare off the heatran or landorus looking to set up stealth rocks early game and set its own entry hazards as they switch. it’s not a great pokemon, but it’s definitely an effective one.
C+ -> B-tangrowth has tons of resists and fantastic physical bulk, which helps it stave off the offensive powerhouses the tier has to offer, such as urshifu-r, garchomp, zeraora, and kartana. and it’s not exactly passive either, with its 100/110 offenses, it can pose an offensive threat while still providing invaluable defensive utility for its teammates. unfortunately, the one thing truly holding tang back is its typing, which is both a blessing and a curse. resisting water, electric and ground is amazing for a defensive mon, but weaknesses to fire, flying, and ice is never a good thing. while its special defense leaves a lot to be desired, an assault vest set can circumvent its biggest weakness and bolster its bulk even further. overall, while not as effective as the tier’s other bulky grass type in ferrothorn, tangrowth has a solid niche in the current meta and it embraces it fully.
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This I don't think I really agree with, A feels perfectly fine for Pex since I think it's already dropped to a ranking that fits it. Do you have any examples of how exactly pex struggles to keep up in the more offensive metagame or instances of mons taking advantage of it that might not have happened a couple months ago when bulkier teams were overall better? The reasoning you gave kind of just feels like vibes and assumptions lol. While Pex does have issues being a bit of a sitting duck that slows the pace of the game, it's still able to annoy many of the things that switch into it via its opportunities to knock an item off or fish for burns, and things of course can't really set up in front of it unlike the other even more passive fat mons. I don't know if I think Fini is better than Pex either, Fini has always struck me as a bulky water that doesn't really like being a bulky water. Its scarf set I still think is its best but it doesn't exactly threaten all that much, and its defensive sets are notorious for letting it get worn down and sinking about as much momentum as any non-pivoting fat mon.
Hell, I'd say Pex almost gets a little more flack than it needs to these days based on how useful it still is for BO/Balance structures, even if those admittedly don't have as many good matchups maybe as once before (which is part of why it's no longer A+ fwiw)
While I don't think Pex deserves to drop to A-, I can understand the sentiment about its passivity. While it can nominally help annoy teams between knock off and scald, it still is taunt bait and a common victim of trapping due to not being able to exert enough pressure sometimes.
Honestly I would often prefer Slowbro/Slowking on bulky structures due to their ability to keep offensive momentum while being a reliable defensive presence.
this is exactly what i meant to say with my nom. pex is damn near useless when it gets taunted, and its inability to exert any amount of pressure offensively (which is very important nowadays, with how fast-paced and offensive the meta has become) is not giving it any points in its favor. while i can 100% see why clementina would think that A is suitable for pex, a drop is not actually outside the realm of possibility for me.
pex struggles to keep up simply because, as i’ve said numerous times, it’s too passive and weak. 63/53 offenses are laughable, its offensive movepool is atrocious, and it simply does not provide any sort of offensive support whatsoever. it’s role as a defensive tank is nearly unparalleled, but as you said, it’s not as important now as it was a few months back. in a metagame where slowbro sees arguably the most amount of use as a bulky water, pex being blown past by the pokemon it’s supposed to check such as urshifu-r, melmetal, and weavile courtesy of future sight leaves a massive hole in the pex user’s team. and as i’ve said with corviknight and quagsire, when you’re barely even able to wall the very pokemon you check, that’s not a good thing.
i hope i was able to provide enough information to support my point, but if there’s anything you still disagree with, you’re more than welcome to prove me wrong.
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Oh I agree that Slowbro especially is the single best bulky water in the tier, but I do think Pex is generally better than like every mon in A- except for maybe Slowking. I don't think another drop is out of the question later on, but right now it feels like a solid A tier mon just due to that insane defensive profile and not being left behind as much IMO as the meta is admittedly a lot more offensive than say, 2021. I also think that while it might sound counterintuitive, a lot of people generally don't play Pex aggressively enough IMO and don't realize just how many things it can stay in that it really shouldn't
Pex is just weird because it's kind of a really crappy good mon and a really amazing bad mon depending on POV
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I'm not sure I agree with this. While I agree that Quag is very hard to justify and generally underperforms on stall compared to other sweeper-stoppers like CM Unaware Clef, it boasts only one thing that Clef cannot: it handily beats LO Zeraora, Blaziken, and SD/Grav Lando. On the whole, those mons themselves are not common outside of HO teams but they do perform pretty well against most Chansey/Clef/Corvi/Pex stalls. In general, stall shouldn't rely on Quag to actively take big hits but to fall back on when you either get the opponent locked into a resist or when you see they're boosting and cannot break Quag.
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