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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
Gotta love how with three of the "unused" you listed, two of them have been used: Obstagoon for Normal/Dark and Nihilego for Poison/Rock
Without veering into wishlisting, some interesting ones that stand out to me:
- Poison/Ice - by far the most interesting of the unused combinations to me, would potentially be a defensive and offensive powerhouse
- Fire/Fairy - feels like one that should already have been done, really. But has a lot of creative potential
- Normal/Steel - mechanically not brilliant but could conceptually be quite intriguing. I have a quite fixed idea of what this could be
- Fairy/Fighting - really Gallade should be this, missed opportunity IMO
- Normal/Ice - not a great typing really but fun nonetheless
- Normal/Rock - can you tell I like combining Normal with other types? It's got the least combinations so could use some new pairings
- Bug/Dark - if this isn't a cockroach I'll riot
- Electric/Fighting - wait, we've had an Electric/Fighting before. No, we have. Zeraora? No, Zeraora is Electric/Fighting. Someone on the production team just forgot to add the Fighting-type to its coding. Seriously!
I'm still mad about Poison Ice Hisiuan Weavile, Fire Fairy Blacephalon, Fairy Fighting Gallade, a Bug Dark Ariadados, Electric Fighting Zeraora !
Normal/Steel is my most-wanted type combo for a weird reason: It is currently the only type combo that was exclusive to Pokestar Studio opponents in Gen V that has yet to appear on an actual Pokemon(the other two were Psychic/Dark and Psyshic/Electric, which were given to real Pokemon in Gen VI and VII, respectively)
Yeah, I don't think additional types are needed. I think what we really need is just more moves like Freeze-dry that allow certain types to circumvent bad matchups and interactions between different weather / terrain effects and types. Maybe Ice types could get a 50% def boost during hail or grass-types could get a passive healing effect during rain. I think this way of balancing types would be more interesting than adding new types
That would be redundant with Rain Dish, which several Grass-types have. Grass-types are more associated with sun, anyway.
Ice getting a Defense boost in hail wouldn't really accomplish anything beyond "oh it's like sand but the opposite" because while Rock-types consistently have high Defense and low Special Defense (and thus sand boosting their SpDef patches up a defined weak point), Ice-types have no such preference, and thus boosting their Defense is just a misguided attempt at symmetry and doesn't actually address the shortcomings of Ice-type Pokemon.
Also, Grass-types already defensively benefit from rain because it neutralizes their Fire weakness, and they already fit really well on rain because they resist the Electric attacks that threaten the Swift Swimmers and Hurricane spammers. Having Grass-types also heal from rain would be redundant and unnecessary.
Actually, can we talk about how good water is? Resisted only by 3 types (2 of which can be killed by ice beam coverage), strong against the popular Ground, Rick, Fire, synergizes with its weather thanks to abilities, is VERY common, and Scald is great for burn
Meanwhile Grass is resisted by 6 types, weak to 5. Thank goodness for Sun teams
I am still of the opinion that the attempts to make Hail "patch ice's defenses" is wrong in concept anyway.
Despite the fact GF has this fetish for defensive ice types, Ice is still arguably top 3 offensive types. If hail was to be boosted to give a benefit, it should be a offensive one (es boosting ice type damage).
Specialized types are much more interesting than balanced ones. It's not a case that as far as competitive goes, the only time ice teams see play is when strong slush rushers exist.
(And well Aurora Veil on its own is already enough to patch their defensive issues)
Despite the fact GF has this fetish for defensive ice types, Ice is still arguably top 3 offensive types. If hail was to be boosted to give a benefit, it should be a offensive one (es boosting ice type damage).
Specialized types are much more interesting than balanced ones. It's not a case that as far as competitive goes, the only time ice teams see play is when strong slush rushers exist.
(And well Aurora Veil on its own is already enough to patch their defensive issues)
This is the one thing holding me back from wanting Frostbite put in the main games as-is. An SpA drop doesn't help Ice-types do Ice-type things, and it just feels like frostbite would be yet another option for bulky Ghosts to use instead of something primarily ran by Ice itself.
Frostbite wouldn't be the biggest buff to ice, but more so replace a pretty annoying rng mechanic which is why people want it
I do want the Pdef boost of Defense in Hail for Ice Mons. This would make the Hail setter to come in more easily, while the sweepers (Alolan Sandslash, Weavile and even Beartic) could use the Defense boost to safely use SD, heck, even Arctzolt coming on band Kartana Leaf Blade would appreciate it, or Arctovish coming into Lando.
Ice is an offensive type, but it's already offensive enough. Some help to take advantage of that offense is certainly useful.
Ice is an offensive type, but it's already offensive enough. Some help to take advantage of that offense is certainly useful.
My preference for a Hail-related stat buff wouldn't actually be a Defence boost; I think that's buffing the wrong area. The vast majority of Rock-types appreciate a Special Defence boost, but not all Ice-types want or need a physical Defence boost: some, like Avalugg, don't require it, and others, like Weavile and Aurorus, aren't improved by it to the point where they'd be surviving physical attacks that would otherwise OHKO them.
Also conceptually I think it's a little uninspired but I'll try to focus on game mechanics here.
Instead, I'd go a different route and say that under hail, all non-Ice-types suffer a -1 drop in Speed. I'm envisioning this being an actual stat drop as opposed to the passive multiplier Sandstorm's boost is. Not all Ice-types are fast enough for this to be an overpowering mechanic, but it would change the dynamic of a lot of matchups, and encourage players to use new builds and stat spreads (suddenly Timid 252 Speed Walrein is looking like a good idea...)
Giving an outright Speed boost to all Ice-types would be too broken, but a debuff to everything else can be worked around, and would rebalance the existing Pokemon and mechanics around it. So Pokemon with abilities like Clear Body (many of whom already have an advantage over Ice-types) would prevent the effect from being too overpowering, and the White Herb would likely see an increase in viability and usage.
Also conceptually I think it's a little uninspired but I'll try to focus on game mechanics here.
Instead, I'd go a different route and say that under hail, all non-Ice-types suffer a -1 drop in Speed. I'm envisioning this being an actual stat drop as opposed to the passive multiplier Sandstorm's boost is. Not all Ice-types are fast enough for this to be an overpowering mechanic, but it would change the dynamic of a lot of matchups, and encourage players to use new builds and stat spreads (suddenly Timid 252 Speed Walrein is looking like a good idea...)
Giving an outright Speed boost to all Ice-types would be too broken, but a debuff to everything else can be worked around, and would rebalance the existing Pokemon and mechanics around it. So Pokemon with abilities like Clear Body (many of whom already have an advantage over Ice-types) would prevent the effect from being too overpowering, and the White Herb would likely see an increase in viability and usage.
The thing is, Hail needs a reimagining from the ground up. Ice as a type has always had the issue of what the type chart says it's good at(fast offense) not matching what their stat spreads suggest(slow, very bulky). Sand helps Rock/Steel/Ground because those art types that are generally bulky in terms of stats which also have good defensive types, even though their offense isn't the greatest. Setting up chip damage is a good way of turning a neutral EQ or a non-STAB coverage move off of Tyranitar et al into a kill when it wouldn't be otherwise. Boosting Rock-types lower defense helps them a lot, of course. And this covers 3 types, which means you can pretty easily put together a team where the majority don't care about the weather damage, which conveniently helps ignore entry hazards.
Meanwhile, Hail sucks. Ice types don't need extra chip damage, they like it, but Blizzard is probably getting the kill anyway, and if it doesn't, hail won't help. Your team can't afford more than 2 mons that are immune to the weather due to type, and even that leads to a shocking SR weakness. And the ice-types that everyone wants to use are extremely fast sweepers that die to a light breeze, while Rock/Ground/Steel can cover a variety of roles in your team.
Aurora Veil is the only thing Hail really has going for it, and even that's really worse than most other options for Screens. It's busted because Screens are busted, and it's existence probably will keep GF from ever giving Hail anything else, but that doesn't make it good compared to Tyranitar+Excadrill, Kingdra, etc.
Meanwhile, Hail sucks. Ice types don't need extra chip damage, they like it, but Blizzard is probably getting the kill anyway, and if it doesn't, hail won't help. Your team can't afford more than 2 mons that are immune to the weather due to type, and even that leads to a shocking SR weakness. And the ice-types that everyone wants to use are extremely fast sweepers that die to a light breeze, while Rock/Ground/Steel can cover a variety of roles in your team.
Aurora Veil is the only thing Hail really has going for it, and even that's really worse than most other options for Screens. It's busted because Screens are busted, and it's existence probably will keep GF from ever giving Hail anything else, but that doesn't make it good compared to Tyranitar+Excadrill, Kingdra, etc.
Hot take: I think the idea of buffing Hail is way off base.
Hail was at some point arguably the best weather in Gen 8 OU, purely off of the strength of Alolan Ninetales and Arctozolt (and formerly Kyurem). Even now, I don't think it's considered the worst weather in OU currently and it's definitely still at minimum viable-ish.
Sure, Hail currently doesn't really benefit most Ice-types at all, but does Sand really do that either? The strength of Sand teams from Gens 6 - 8 is built entirely off the strength of Tyranitar and Excadrill, both of which are strong even on non-Sand teams. I don't think I've ever seen a team where a Rock-type that doesn't have Sand Stream is meant to benefit from Sand (other than mono-Rock teams). Like, I guess it comes up when your opponent brings a Sand setter and your Terrakion/Nihilego happens to benefit, but that's about it.
Overall, I'm trying to say that Hail itself is a viable weather, it just doesn't benefit most Ice-types (similar to Sand).
You don't even have to use a Hail team, Alolan Ninetales is now the fastest screens setter (aside from Prankster users) and it can set both screens in one turn. It's not very prevalent in Gen 8, but in Gen 7 it was a pretty strong enabler of screens HO.
So while this does make it so that Hail actually benefits Ice-types, the degree of benefit that it gives to the abusers that are already strong is absurd. The proposed counterplay doesn't really work; most Clear Body users aside from Dragapult are pretty slow, and slapping White Herb (or Utility Umbrella) onto random Pokemon to offset the speed drop is a countertech that is mostly useless versus non-Hail teams.
Plus, making the viability of a type strongly tied to a weather condition just seems flawed to me, since only auto-weather is really viable (what is effectively a +1 speed boost for 5 turns doesn't seem that good even for in-game) and that's tied to a small number of Pokemon.
There's more I want to elaborate on (like design trends in Ice-types that contribute to its perception as a generally bad typing) but I'm out of time for now.
Hail was at some point arguably the best weather in Gen 8 OU, purely off of the strength of Alolan Ninetales and Arctozolt (and formerly Kyurem). Even now, I don't think it's considered the worst weather in OU currently and it's definitely still at minimum viable-ish.
Sure, Hail currently doesn't really benefit most Ice-types at all, but does Sand really do that either? The strength of Sand teams from Gens 6 - 8 is built entirely off the strength of Tyranitar and Excadrill, both of which are strong even on non-Sand teams. I don't think I've ever seen a team where a Rock-type that doesn't have Sand Stream is meant to benefit from Sand (other than mono-Rock teams). Like, I guess it comes up when your opponent brings a Sand setter and your Terrakion/Nihilego happens to benefit, but that's about it.
Overall, I'm trying to say that Hail itself is a viable weather, it just doesn't benefit most Ice-types (similar to Sand).
Given how Hail is already viable (with its 2 main abusers at least), think of how absurd it would be for these two. The fact that Hail slows down non-Ice Pokemon makes it much harder to deal with Alolan Ninetales, since you can't Taunt/Knock/threaten a strong hit before it sets up Aurora Veil. With Hail slowing down other Pokemon, you can't use a fast Scarfer (namely Kartana) to revenge kill Arctozolt, and it won't have to choose between a +Atk and +Spe nature anymore. The only Pokemon that can revenge kill it without priority is 252 Speed Hawlucha (and if it does use a +Spe nature, you also need Jolly to be faster, and Jolly Hawlucha is a pretty bad set).
You don't even have to use a Hail team, Alolan Ninetales is now the fastest screens setter (aside from Prankster users) and it can set both screens in one turn. It's not very prevalent in Gen 8, but in Gen 7 it was a pretty strong enabler of screens HO.
So while this does make it so that Hail actually benefits Ice-types, the degree of benefit that it gives to the abusers that are already strong is absurd. The proposed counterplay doesn't really work; most Clear Body users aside from Dragapult are pretty slow, and slapping White Herb (or Utility Umbrella) onto random Pokemon to offset the speed drop is a countertech that is mostly useless versus non-Hail teams.
Plus, making the viability of a type strongly tied to a weather condition just seems flawed to me, since only auto-weather is really viable (what is effectively a +1 speed boost for 5 turns doesn't seem that good even for in-game) and that's tied to a small number of Pokemon.
There's more I want to elaborate on (like design trends in Ice-types that contribute to its perception as a generally bad typing) but I'm out of time for now.
Thing is, Aurora Veil is stupid-good, but so are screens in general. Alolan Ninetails gets Hail+Screens in one moveslot, which is great, but it's pretty rare that a tier discusses Veil alone without talking about screens in general 6 months later. And Hail teams really fell off after Kyurem(which is a busted legendary) was banned. But every gen, there's a bunch of discussion of the other 3 weathers. Yes, TTar+Excadrill is what makes sand scary, but there's plenty of Hippo bulky teams that just happen to use lots of rock and steel mons, where the chip damage from sand is a reliable benefit. Rain is, of course, a meta-warping force. And Sun is decent, depending on the ruleset and what bans have come through for rain/sand.
And I'm not sure I'm advocating for a Hail buff. It needs a reimagining, alongside the Ice type in general. It's been pointed out repeatedly, the Ice type encourages fast sweepers, the Ice mons are bulky and slow. Sand works for sweeper builds because Excadrill is busted, it works for bulky builds because you can fill a team with mons that don't care about chip and enjoy inflicting it on your oppts. Ice can't do bulky builds because SR, and you can't stack too many Ice-types on your team to ignore/benefit from Hail because basically any sweeper has a coverage move that's SE against Ice. So you're left with "NinetailsA with Veil/Slush Rush Sweeper/one viable thing with Blizzard, possibly not an ice-type" as the only real Hail build. I don't like that, the weather should work with the type's advantages and encourage a variety of team comps. Instead, Hail's chip damage(the original benefit) is treated as a hinderance to be worked around.
In other words, don't buff it, but GF needs to figure out what they expect certain archetypes to be able to pull off(weather, Trick Room, Screens, Terrain, etc) and rework the relevant abilities/mons to fit their vision. Don't just make stuff and see what happens.
All this talk about Hail and ice buffs and no one is bringing up that the snow/blizzard weather conditions in Legends Arceus boost speed by 33%? (There isn't a Hail condition in the game).
If gen 9 does alter Hail to buff ice types, I would guess it would import this effect. It's not as big as the 50% spdef buff that rock types get in sandstorm, so maybe it would be more balanced. Of course in PLA speed affects the turn order/frequency, so the effects could play out differently in the traditional battle format. All I know is I got trampled by an alpha Glalie and friends in the snow once.
If gen 9 does alter Hail to buff ice types, I would guess it would import this effect. It's not as big as the 50% spdef buff that rock types get in sandstorm, so maybe it would be more balanced. Of course in PLA speed affects the turn order/frequency, so the effects could play out differently in the traditional battle format. All I know is I got trampled by an alpha Glalie and friends in the snow once.
For what matters, I'd repeat once more to not consider any PLA change to be relevant for main series, even on "if they were to" moments like Hail changes (which we all know nothing will happen and are basically pure wishlisting anyway).
All of these were made to cather that specific gameplay, es weather alteration was due to weather not actually being a thing and being a atmosphere factor instead.
Snow/Blizzard effects are what they are to pseudo-replicate Slush Rush, and unsurprisingly, guess what Strong Sunlight did? Increase the speed of Grass type pokemon.
Ice is fine, and while GF should lean into it, fast special Ices are demonspawn thanks to their best moves freezing
Mystery Dungeon having Snow buff Ice type speed while being nonvolatile to others:
Kinda wish we had more weather from MD in mainline. Cloudy nerfing all moves but Normal is a surprising boon for Normal Types. Same with Fog weakening Electric moves
I dunno, weather wars really are only 2-3 of all weathers currenrtly, and terrains aren't enough
Kinda wish we had more weather from MD in mainline. Cloudy nerfing all moves but Normal is a surprising boon for Normal Types. Same with Fog weakening Electric moves
I dunno, weather wars really are only 2-3 of all weathers currenrtly, and terrains aren't enough
Mechanics from PLA absolutely might never be implemented in the traditional core series, but in a discussion about possible buffs to ice types through hail, the speed boost in snow/blizzard is the closest thing we have to an actual data point relevant to what changes GF might be most likely to make. If the topic is going to be discussed at all, this example warrants being brought up, since the usual speculation is "buff defense" to mirror sandstorm.
The idea that the effect is simply intended to mimic the effects of slush rush, while certainly plausible, is also far from airtight. Exactly zero of the 6 Pokemon that have slush rush are available in PLA, and there are other abilities GF could have chosen to replicate instead that several Pokemon in PLA actually have in the main series: Ice Body, Thick Fat, or Snow Cloak. Any of these could function similarly to provide atmosphere and mimic abilities, but GF chose the speed boost. Thick Fat is maybe less likely because rain already reduces fire damage, and snow cloak is perhaps less likely because fog reduces accuracy for every type, but ice body could certainly have been chosen as an option over a speed boost.
Pointing to grass types getting a speed boost and concluding it's simply because of chlorophyll also glosses over the fact that water types do not get a speed boost in rain despite the existence of swift swim and several families with that ability being in PLA, and instead GF opted for the weather-inherent effect of reducing fire damage.
Here's my take: Hail simply doesn't do enough as a weather in general, much less specifically in favor of Ice Types. Hail's effects outside of abilities/moves specific to it are Chip Damage (which Ice types mostly would care about for breaking Sturdy/Sashes and wearing down walls rather than playing attrition), and Blizzard Accuracy alongside Thunder/Solar move nerfs which generally occur in any weather besides their favorite. By comparison
Sand is the closest with few effects, but the one it bears is more significant.
Now getting into personal wish-listing, if we wanted to go defensive focused with Hail, I would have replicated Thick Fat's effect a bit by weakening Fire AND Water moves (presuming Hail to be tied to cold temperatures or snowstorm concepts in general that would disperse heat and chill water too much to flow well), and/or given it the ability to prevent burns while the weather is active (justification being the cold environment draws heat away before it can inflict lasting damage on the target to burn/scorch them).
One or both of these would give Hail a property akin to defensive Sun (reducing a SE type's damage to make stomaching their offenses easier even if not preferable), and the latter would give Ice Type Pokemon (if not Ice-coverage users) a leg up on Water Types with Freeze Dry while gaining a pseudo resistance. For a personal bias, the Water and Burn effects puts a massive dent in the spammability of Scald, a move a lot of people think is way too free to click for Water type Pokemon, by reducing the free hit and creating switches where the 30% Burn is not a consideration meaning defensive Waters simply clicking Scald every switch now risk giving away a Physical Set Up opportunity or utility turn for Defogging/Recovery/Pivoting.
Sand is the closest with few effects, but the one it bears is more significant.
- SpD boost for Rock types in general
- Similar Chip Damage
- Boosts Water moves
- Weakens Fire moves
- Thunder and Hurricane Accuracy (2 moves vs 1 and arguably more relevant for the latter given Hurricane drops to Air Slash vs Blizzard to Ice Beam as coverage, main reason I point it out since these moves can matter without dedicated weather while benefitting from it)
- Boost Fire
- Weaken Water
- Prevent Freezing (Gen 8 demonstrates this is a point people would care about for even small RNG chances)
Now getting into personal wish-listing, if we wanted to go defensive focused with Hail, I would have replicated Thick Fat's effect a bit by weakening Fire AND Water moves (presuming Hail to be tied to cold temperatures or snowstorm concepts in general that would disperse heat and chill water too much to flow well), and/or given it the ability to prevent burns while the weather is active (justification being the cold environment draws heat away before it can inflict lasting damage on the target to burn/scorch them).
One or both of these would give Hail a property akin to defensive Sun (reducing a SE type's damage to make stomaching their offenses easier even if not preferable), and the latter would give Ice Type Pokemon (if not Ice-coverage users) a leg up on Water Types with Freeze Dry while gaining a pseudo resistance. For a personal bias, the Water and Burn effects puts a massive dent in the spammability of Scald, a move a lot of people think is way too free to click for Water type Pokemon, by reducing the free hit and creating switches where the 30% Burn is not a consideration meaning defensive Waters simply clicking Scald every switch now risk giving away a Physical Set Up opportunity or utility turn for Defogging/Recovery/Pivoting.