Unpopular opinions

Samtendo09

Ability: Light Power
is a Pre-Contributor
Reminder that 100% of special steel moves are light-based, while only 18% of special fairy moves are. I agree with your overall point (that light as its own type isn't conceptually necessary), but it doesn't map to just Fairy.
I agreed with Cuddly that Light is not necessary for a type, but agree far more with Ironmage that light-based concepts isn’t really all that much associated with Fairy. Adding to what Ironmage said;
  • There’s the Light Trio who are all Psychic-type, but their signature moves are light-based. This is especially notable with Necrozma as it’s a being made of light and gems.
  • There’s also Tail Glow which is Bug-type and remained so.
  • Solar Beam and Solar Blade absorb light, and instantly attacks when harsh sunlight is active.
  • Light Screen and Reflect are a type of hardlight made to reduce different category of attacks; Special in Light Screen’s case, and Physical in Reflect’s case.
  • The Ability, Illuminate, which have no in-battle effect but is given to Pokémon of a variety of type. The only Fairy-type that got Illuminate is the Morelull line, and none of the single-typed Pokémon prior to Gen 6 gain Fairy just because they got Illuminate, though most do use Dazzling Gleam.
 

QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
Reminder that 100% of special steel moves are light-based, while only 18% of special fairy moves are. I agree with your overall point (that light as its own type isn't conceptually necessary), but it doesn't map to just Fairy.
Psychic also has a strong association with light and glow moves, and has a lot of space/star theming too.

The proposed Light-type annoys me because I think it comes from a misunderstanding of Dark. People assume that Dark needs a counterpart when it more or less does, in Fighting (and conceptually, Bug also) because it's the Evil-type, which I can understand Western translation teams being reluctant to use. But the issue there is that Dark conjures up ideas of shadow and gloom, which actually suits the Ghost-type better. The straightforward "fair play" combat style of Fighting types is pretty much in total contrast to how Dark plays.

EDIT: Ninja'd, darn it.
 
I still stan that Light should be a sub category of moves just like sound, bomb, punching, biting, and pulse moves. Moves like Flash Cannon, Mirror Shot, Luster Purge, Charge Beam, Solar Beam, Ice Beam, Psybeam, Aurora Beam (notice a trend?), Signal Beam (rip), and the ilk deserve abilities that take advantage of them.

My preferred new type is Beast/Feral, basically a cross between Normal and Dragon, giving more beastly/mammalian Pokemon more distinction from being "normal". More "domesticated/civilized/household" Pokemon, like Tauros, Bewear, and Stoutland are "Normal" while Bouffalant, Ursaring, and Zangoose are Beast/Feral. Plus it can give some depth to previously Single Type Pokemon like Luxray, Absol, Lycanroc, and the Legendary Beasts.
 

QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
Sunflora Fire Grass wen (only in my dreams)
View attachment 432218
Actually, what combos are left now? Fire Grass is one, Normal Dark, Poison Rock...
Without veering into wishlisting, some interesting ones that stand out to me:
  • Poison/Ice - by far the most interesting of the unused combinations to me, would potentially be a defensive and offensive powerhouse
  • Fire/Fairy - feels like one that should already have been done, really. But has a lot of creative potential
  • Normal/Steel - mechanically not brilliant but could conceptually be quite intriguing. I have a quite fixed idea of what this could be
  • Fairy/Fighting - really Gallade should be this, missed opportunity IMO
  • Normal/Ice - not a great typing really but fun nonetheless
  • Normal/Rock - can you tell I like combining Normal with other types? It's got the least combinations so could use some new pairings
  • Bug/Dark - if this isn't a cockroach I'll riot
  • Electric/Fighting - wait, we've had an Electric/Fighting before. No, we have. Zeraora? No, Zeraora is Electric/Fighting. Someone on the production team just forgot to add the Fighting-type to its coding. Seriously!
 
Without veering into wishlisting, some interesting ones that stand out to me:
  • Poison/Ice - by far the most interesting of the unused combinations to me, would potentially be a defensive and offensive powerhouse
  • Fire/Fairy - feels like one that should already have been done, really. But has a lot of creative potential
  • Normal/Steel - mechanically not brilliant but could conceptually be quite intriguing. I have a quite fixed idea of what this could be
  • Fairy/Fighting - really Gallade should be this, missed opportunity IMO
  • Normal/Ice - not a great typing really but fun nonetheless
  • Normal/Rock - can you tell I like combining Normal with other types? It's got the least combinations so could use some new pairings
  • Bug/Dark - if this isn't a cockroach I'll riot
  • Electric/Fighting - wait, we've had an Electric/Fighting before. No, we have. Zeraora? No, Zeraora is Electric/Fighting. Someone on the production team just forgot to add the Fighting-type to its coding. Seriously!
I'm still mad about Poison Ice Hisiuan Weavile, Fire Fairy Blacephalon, Fairy Fighting Gallade, a Bug Dark Ariadados, Electric Fighting Zeraora !
 
  • Normal/Steel - mechanically not brilliant but could conceptually be quite intriguing. I have a quite fixed idea of what this could be
Normal/Steel is my most-wanted type combo for a weird reason: It is currently the only type combo that was exclusive to Pokestar Studio opponents in Gen V that has yet to appear on an actual Pokemon(the other two were Psychic/Dark and Psyshic/Electric, which were given to real Pokemon in Gen VI and VII, respectively)
 
I'm not sure if "unpopular" or not, but honestly I think wanting new types is just showing lack of understanding of how difficult to balance a game like this is.

Just as is, the type chart is already a mess and certain types are significantly stronger than others. It's impossible to balance it perfectly, as for every type you buff, you are indirectly (or directly) nerfing another one. The existance of dual typing also further complicates it, and also acts as soft entry-barrier because not only you have to memorize the type chart, then you also need to factor in that many pokemon have 2 types which change their affinities and may negate or exacerbate an existing affinity.

The last thing this game needs is MORE of these making it even more of a mess than it already is.
Yeah, I don't think additional types are needed. I think what we really need is just more moves like Freeze-dry that allow certain types to circumvent bad matchups and interactions between different weather / terrain effects and types. Maybe Ice types could get a 50% def boost during hail or grass-types could get a passive healing effect during rain. I think this way of balancing types would be more interesting than adding new types
 
Ice types could get a 50% def boost during hail or grass-types could get a passive healing effect during rain.
Ice getting a Defense boost in hail wouldn't really accomplish anything beyond "oh it's like sand but the opposite" because while Rock-types consistently have high Defense and low Special Defense (and thus sand boosting their SpDef patches up a defined weak point), Ice-types have no such preference, and thus boosting their Defense is just a misguided attempt at symmetry and doesn't actually address the shortcomings of Ice-type Pokemon.

Also, Grass-types already defensively benefit from rain because it neutralizes their Fire weakness, and they already fit really well on rain because they resist the Electric attacks that threaten the Swift Swimmers and Hurricane spammers. Having Grass-types also heal from rain would be redundant and unnecessary.
 
Make Snow weather, and have it slow down Dragon and Water types, while boosting speed of Ice types
Actually, can we talk about how good water is? Resisted only by 3 types (2 of which can be killed by ice beam coverage), strong against the popular Ground, Rick, Fire, synergizes with its weather thanks to abilities, is VERY common, and Scald is great for burn
Meanwhile Grass is resisted by 6 types, weak to 5. Thank goodness for Sun teams
 
I am still of the opinion that the attempts to make Hail "patch ice's defenses" is wrong in concept anyway.
Despite the fact GF has this fetish for defensive ice types, Ice is still arguably top 3 offensive types. If hail was to be boosted to give a benefit, it should be a offensive one (es boosting ice type damage).

Specialized types are much more interesting than balanced ones. It's not a case that as far as competitive goes, the only time ice teams see play is when strong slush rushers exist.
(And well Aurora Veil on its own is already enough to patch their defensive issues)
 
I am still of the opinion that the attempts to make Hail "patch ice's defenses" is wrong in concept anyway.
Despite the fact GF has this fetish for defensive ice types, Ice is still arguably top 3 offensive types. If hail was to be boosted to give a benefit, it should be a offensive one (es boosting ice type damage).

Specialized types are much more interesting than balanced ones. It's not a case that as far as competitive goes, the only time ice teams see play is when strong slush rushers exist.
(And well Aurora Veil on its own is already enough to patch their defensive issues)
This is the one thing holding me back from wanting Frostbite put in the main games as-is. An SpA drop doesn't help Ice-types do Ice-type things, and it just feels like frostbite would be yet another option for bulky Ghosts to use instead of something primarily ran by Ice itself.
 
This is the one thing holding me back from wanting Frostbite put in the main games as-is. An SpA drop doesn't help Ice-types do Ice-type things, and it just feels like frostbite would be yet another option for bulky Ghosts to use instead of something primarily ran by Ice itself.
Frostbite wouldn't be the biggest buff to ice, but more so replace a pretty annoying rng mechanic which is why people want it
 
I do want the Pdef boost of Defense in Hail for Ice Mons. This would make the Hail setter to come in more easily, while the sweepers (Alolan Sandslash, Weavile and even Beartic) could use the Defense boost to safely use SD, heck, even Arctzolt coming on band Kartana Leaf Blade would appreciate it, or Arctovish coming into Lando.
Ice is an offensive type, but it's already offensive enough. Some help to take advantage of that offense is certainly useful.
 

QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
My preference for a Hail-related stat buff wouldn't actually be a Defence boost; I think that's buffing the wrong area. The vast majority of Rock-types appreciate a Special Defence boost, but not all Ice-types want or need a physical Defence boost: some, like Avalugg, don't require it, and others, like Weavile and Aurorus, aren't improved by it to the point where they'd be surviving physical attacks that would otherwise OHKO them.

Also conceptually I think it's a little uninspired but I'll try to focus on game mechanics here.

Instead, I'd go a different route and say that under hail, all non-Ice-types suffer a -1 drop in Speed. I'm envisioning this being an actual stat drop as opposed to the passive multiplier Sandstorm's boost is. Not all Ice-types are fast enough for this to be an overpowering mechanic, but it would change the dynamic of a lot of matchups, and encourage players to use new builds and stat spreads (suddenly Timid 252 Speed Walrein is looking like a good idea...)

Giving an outright Speed boost to all Ice-types would be too broken, but a debuff to everything else can be worked around, and would rebalance the existing Pokemon and mechanics around it. So Pokemon with abilities like Clear Body (many of whom already have an advantage over Ice-types) would prevent the effect from being too overpowering, and the White Herb would likely see an increase in viability and usage.
 
The thing is, Hail needs a reimagining from the ground up. Ice as a type has always had the issue of what the type chart says it's good at(fast offense) not matching what their stat spreads suggest(slow, very bulky). Sand helps Rock/Steel/Ground because those art types that are generally bulky in terms of stats which also have good defensive types, even though their offense isn't the greatest. Setting up chip damage is a good way of turning a neutral EQ or a non-STAB coverage move off of Tyranitar et al into a kill when it wouldn't be otherwise. Boosting Rock-types lower defense helps them a lot, of course. And this covers 3 types, which means you can pretty easily put together a team where the majority don't care about the weather damage, which conveniently helps ignore entry hazards.
Meanwhile, Hail sucks. Ice types don't need extra chip damage, they like it, but Blizzard is probably getting the kill anyway, and if it doesn't, hail won't help. Your team can't afford more than 2 mons that are immune to the weather due to type, and even that leads to a shocking SR weakness. And the ice-types that everyone wants to use are extremely fast sweepers that die to a light breeze, while Rock/Ground/Steel can cover a variety of roles in your team.
Aurora Veil is the only thing Hail really has going for it, and even that's really worse than most other options for Screens. It's busted because Screens are busted, and it's existence probably will keep GF from ever giving Hail anything else, but that doesn't make it good compared to Tyranitar+Excadrill, Kingdra, etc.
 
Hot take: I think the idea of buffing Hail is way off base.

Hail was at some point arguably the best weather in Gen 8 OU, purely off of the strength of Alolan Ninetales and Arctozolt (and formerly Kyurem). Even now, I don't think it's considered the worst weather in OU currently and it's definitely still at minimum viable-ish.
Sure, Hail currently doesn't really benefit most Ice-types at all, but does Sand really do that either? The strength of Sand teams from Gens 6 - 8 is built entirely off the strength of Tyranitar and Excadrill, both of which are strong even on non-Sand teams. I don't think I've ever seen a team where a Rock-type that doesn't have Sand Stream is meant to benefit from Sand (other than mono-Rock teams). Like, I guess it comes up when your opponent brings a Sand setter and your Terrakion/Nihilego happens to benefit, but that's about it.
Overall, I'm trying to say that Hail itself is a viable weather, it just doesn't benefit most Ice-types (similar to Sand).

Instead, I'd go a different route and say that under hail, all non-Ice-types suffer a -1 drop in Speed. I'm envisioning this being an actual stat drop as opposed to the passive multiplier Sandstorm's boost is. Not all Ice-types are fast enough for this to be an overpowering mechanic, but it would change the dynamic of a lot of matchups, and encourage players to use new builds and stat spreads (suddenly Timid 252 Speed Walrein is looking like a good idea...)

Giving an outright Speed boost to all Ice-types would be too broken, but a debuff to everything else can be worked around, and would rebalance the existing Pokemon and mechanics around it. So Pokemon with abilities like Clear Body (many of whom already have an advantage over Ice-types) would prevent the effect from being too overpowering, and the White Herb would likely see an increase in viability and usage.
Given how Hail is already viable (with its 2 main abusers at least), think of how absurd it would be for these two. The fact that Hail slows down non-Ice Pokemon makes it much harder to deal with Alolan Ninetales, since you can't Taunt/Knock/threaten a strong hit before it sets up Aurora Veil. With Hail slowing down other Pokemon, you can't use a fast Scarfer (namely Kartana) to revenge kill Arctozolt, and it won't have to choose between a +Atk and +Spe nature anymore. The only Pokemon that can revenge kill it without priority is 252 Speed Hawlucha (and if it does use a +Spe nature, you also need Jolly to be faster, and Jolly Hawlucha is a pretty bad set).
You don't even have to use a Hail team, Alolan Ninetales is now the fastest screens setter (aside from Prankster users) and it can set both screens in one turn. It's not very prevalent in Gen 8, but in Gen 7 it was a pretty strong enabler of screens HO.

So while this does make it so that Hail actually benefits Ice-types, the degree of benefit that it gives to the abusers that are already strong is absurd. The proposed counterplay doesn't really work; most Clear Body users aside from Dragapult are pretty slow, and slapping White Herb (or Utility Umbrella) onto random Pokemon to offset the speed drop is a countertech that is mostly useless versus non-Hail teams.
Plus, making the viability of a type strongly tied to a weather condition just seems flawed to me, since only auto-weather is really viable (what is effectively a +1 speed boost for 5 turns doesn't seem that good even for in-game) and that's tied to a small number of Pokemon.

There's more I want to elaborate on (like design trends in Ice-types that contribute to its perception as a generally bad typing) but I'm out of time for now.
 
Hot take: I think the idea of buffing Hail is way off base.

Hail was at some point arguably the best weather in Gen 8 OU, purely off of the strength of Alolan Ninetales and Arctozolt (and formerly Kyurem). Even now, I don't think it's considered the worst weather in OU currently and it's definitely still at minimum viable-ish.
Sure, Hail currently doesn't really benefit most Ice-types at all, but does Sand really do that either? The strength of Sand teams from Gens 6 - 8 is built entirely off the strength of Tyranitar and Excadrill, both of which are strong even on non-Sand teams. I don't think I've ever seen a team where a Rock-type that doesn't have Sand Stream is meant to benefit from Sand (other than mono-Rock teams). Like, I guess it comes up when your opponent brings a Sand setter and your Terrakion/Nihilego happens to benefit, but that's about it.
Overall, I'm trying to say that Hail itself is a viable weather, it just doesn't benefit most Ice-types (similar to Sand).
Thing is, Aurora Veil is stupid-good, but so are screens in general. Alolan Ninetails gets Hail+Screens in one moveslot, which is great, but it's pretty rare that a tier discusses Veil alone without talking about screens in general 6 months later. And Hail teams really fell off after Kyurem(which is a busted legendary) was banned. But every gen, there's a bunch of discussion of the other 3 weathers. Yes, TTar+Excadrill is what makes sand scary, but there's plenty of Hippo bulky teams that just happen to use lots of rock and steel mons, where the chip damage from sand is a reliable benefit. Rain is, of course, a meta-warping force. And Sun is decent, depending on the ruleset and what bans have come through for rain/sand.

And I'm not sure I'm advocating for a Hail buff. It needs a reimagining, alongside the Ice type in general. It's been pointed out repeatedly, the Ice type encourages fast sweepers, the Ice mons are bulky and slow. Sand works for sweeper builds because Excadrill is busted, it works for bulky builds because you can fill a team with mons that don't care about chip and enjoy inflicting it on your oppts. Ice can't do bulky builds because SR, and you can't stack too many Ice-types on your team to ignore/benefit from Hail because basically any sweeper has a coverage move that's SE against Ice. So you're left with "NinetailsA with Veil/Slush Rush Sweeper/one viable thing with Blizzard, possibly not an ice-type" as the only real Hail build. I don't like that, the weather should work with the type's advantages and encourage a variety of team comps. Instead, Hail's chip damage(the original benefit) is treated as a hinderance to be worked around.

In other words, don't buff it, but GF needs to figure out what they expect certain archetypes to be able to pull off(weather, Trick Room, Screens, Terrain, etc) and rework the relevant abilities/mons to fit their vision. Don't just make stuff and see what happens.
 
All this talk about Hail and ice buffs and no one is bringing up that the snow/blizzard weather conditions in Legends Arceus boost speed by 33%? (There isn't a Hail condition in the game).

If gen 9 does alter Hail to buff ice types, I would guess it would import this effect. It's not as big as the 50% spdef buff that rock types get in sandstorm, so maybe it would be more balanced. Of course in PLA speed affects the turn order/frequency, so the effects could play out differently in the traditional battle format. All I know is I got trampled by an alpha Glalie and friends in the snow once.
 
All this talk about Hail and ice buffs and no one is bringing up that the snow/blizzard weather conditions in Legends Arceus boost speed by 33%? (There isn't a Hail condition in the game).

If gen 9 does alter Hail to buff ice types, I would guess it would import this effect. It's not as big as the 50% spdef buff that rock types get in sandstorm, so maybe it would be more balanced. Of course in PLA speed affects the turn order/frequency, so the effects could play out differently in the traditional battle format. All I know is I got trampled by an alpha Glalie and friends in the snow once.
For what matters, I'd repeat once more to not consider any PLA change to be relevant for main series, even on "if they were to" moments like Hail changes (which we all know nothing will happen and are basically pure wishlisting anyway).
All of these were made to cather that specific gameplay, es weather alteration was due to weather not actually being a thing and being a atmosphere factor instead.

Snow/Blizzard effects are what they are to pseudo-replicate Slush Rush, and unsurprisingly, guess what Strong Sunlight did? Increase the speed of Grass type pokemon.
 

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