Ice is fine, and while GF should lean into it, fast special Ices are demonspawn thanks to their best moves freezing
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
Mystery Dungeon having Snow buff Ice type speed while being nonvolatile to others:
Kinda wish we had more weather from MD in mainline. Cloudy nerfing all moves but Normal is a surprising boon for Normal Types. Same with Fog weakening Electric moves
I dunno, weather wars really are only 2-3 of all weathers currenrtly, and terrains aren't enough
Kinda wish we had more weather from MD in mainline. Cloudy nerfing all moves but Normal is a surprising boon for Normal Types. Same with Fog weakening Electric moves
I dunno, weather wars really are only 2-3 of all weathers currenrtly, and terrains aren't enough
Mechanics from PLA absolutely might never be implemented in the traditional core series, but in a discussion about possible buffs to ice types through hail, the speed boost in snow/blizzard is the closest thing we have to an actual data point relevant to what changes GF might be most likely to make. If the topic is going to be discussed at all, this example warrants being brought up, since the usual speculation is "buff defense" to mirror sandstorm.
The idea that the effect is simply intended to mimic the effects of slush rush, while certainly plausible, is also far from airtight. Exactly zero of the 6 Pokemon that have slush rush are available in PLA, and there are other abilities GF could have chosen to replicate instead that several Pokemon in PLA actually have in the main series: Ice Body, Thick Fat, or Snow Cloak. Any of these could function similarly to provide atmosphere and mimic abilities, but GF chose the speed boost. Thick Fat is maybe less likely because rain already reduces fire damage, and snow cloak is perhaps less likely because fog reduces accuracy for every type, but ice body could certainly have been chosen as an option over a speed boost.
Pointing to grass types getting a speed boost and concluding it's simply because of chlorophyll also glosses over the fact that water types do not get a speed boost in rain despite the existence of swift swim and several families with that ability being in PLA, and instead GF opted for the weather-inherent effect of reducing fire damage.
Here's my take: Hail simply doesn't do enough as a weather in general, much less specifically in favor of Ice Types. Hail's effects outside of abilities/moves specific to it are Chip Damage (which Ice types mostly would care about for breaking Sturdy/Sashes and wearing down walls rather than playing attrition), and Blizzard Accuracy alongside Thunder/Solar move nerfs which generally occur in any weather besides their favorite. By comparison
Sand is the closest with few effects, but the one it bears is more significant.
Now getting into personal wish-listing, if we wanted to go defensive focused with Hail, I would have replicated Thick Fat's effect a bit by weakening Fire AND Water moves (presuming Hail to be tied to cold temperatures or snowstorm concepts in general that would disperse heat and chill water too much to flow well), and/or given it the ability to prevent burns while the weather is active (justification being the cold environment draws heat away before it can inflict lasting damage on the target to burn/scorch them).
One or both of these would give Hail a property akin to defensive Sun (reducing a SE type's damage to make stomaching their offenses easier even if not preferable), and the latter would give Ice Type Pokemon (if not Ice-coverage users) a leg up on Water Types with Freeze Dry while gaining a pseudo resistance. For a personal bias, the Water and Burn effects puts a massive dent in the spammability of Scald, a move a lot of people think is way too free to click for Water type Pokemon, by reducing the free hit and creating switches where the 30% Burn is not a consideration meaning defensive Waters simply clicking Scald every switch now risk giving away a Physical Set Up opportunity or utility turn for Defogging/Recovery/Pivoting.
Sand is the closest with few effects, but the one it bears is more significant.
- SpD boost for Rock types in general
- Similar Chip Damage
- Boosts Water moves
- Weakens Fire moves
- Thunder and Hurricane Accuracy (2 moves vs 1 and arguably more relevant for the latter given Hurricane drops to Air Slash vs Blizzard to Ice Beam as coverage, main reason I point it out since these moves can matter without dedicated weather while benefitting from it)
- Boost Fire
- Weaken Water
- Prevent Freezing (Gen 8 demonstrates this is a point people would care about for even small RNG chances)
Now getting into personal wish-listing, if we wanted to go defensive focused with Hail, I would have replicated Thick Fat's effect a bit by weakening Fire AND Water moves (presuming Hail to be tied to cold temperatures or snowstorm concepts in general that would disperse heat and chill water too much to flow well), and/or given it the ability to prevent burns while the weather is active (justification being the cold environment draws heat away before it can inflict lasting damage on the target to burn/scorch them).
One or both of these would give Hail a property akin to defensive Sun (reducing a SE type's damage to make stomaching their offenses easier even if not preferable), and the latter would give Ice Type Pokemon (if not Ice-coverage users) a leg up on Water Types with Freeze Dry while gaining a pseudo resistance. For a personal bias, the Water and Burn effects puts a massive dent in the spammability of Scald, a move a lot of people think is way too free to click for Water type Pokemon, by reducing the free hit and creating switches where the 30% Burn is not a consideration meaning defensive Waters simply clicking Scald every switch now risk giving away a Physical Set Up opportunity or utility turn for Defogging/Recovery/Pivoting.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
RSE Steven>ORAS Steven
ORAS Wallace>RSE Wallace
ORAS Wallace>RSE Wallace
I generally don't like remake redesigns as they typically overexaggerate things (like Morty becoming way more obviously ghost related in HGSS, Archie in ORAS), but I can't deny that ORAS Wallace is even more fabulous
But it does feel like Pokemon became less grounded after mid Gen 4, so ^shrugs^
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
I've replayed Platinum a few times and used Rotom two or three times (using the gift exploit to receive the Secret Key) and I honestly think it's the perfect Pokemon for Sinnoh to the point that a Platinum run without Rotom isn't a proper Platinum run. Not only is it obviously versatile as heck with its multiple forms, it's quite powerful for that stage of the game and has a great typing with great moves to boot, and it's such an iconic Platinum Pokemon that not using it just doesn't feel right.
But - as fun and unique as all its various typings are - I think I prefer it being Electric/Ghost in all forms. Electric/Ghost with Levitate is stellar typing in-game, but more to the point the additional acquired types don't do much for it offensively because it only gets that one extra move to make use of. It's overkill.
Also thematically it just works better, Rotom is a ghost so it not being Ghost-type in five of its six forms just doesn't sit right with me (much as I do enjoy the hilarity that is Fan Rotom's existence). The machines it possesses are basically just clothing, I don't see why possessing a toaster should inherently make it a Fire-type.
But - as fun and unique as all its various typings are - I think I prefer it being Electric/Ghost in all forms. Electric/Ghost with Levitate is stellar typing in-game, but more to the point the additional acquired types don't do much for it offensively because it only gets that one extra move to make use of. It's overkill.
Also thematically it just works better, Rotom is a ghost so it not being Ghost-type in five of its six forms just doesn't sit right with me (much as I do enjoy the hilarity that is Fan Rotom's existence). The machines it possesses are basically just clothing, I don't see why possessing a toaster should inherently make it a Fire-type.
Absolutely agreed that the type changes don't really make much sense, although my big issue with them is that Rotom ends up being pretty close to an idealised version of each dual typing (except in its Fan form obviously), thanks in large part to Levitate. New members for each combination have to compete with a relatively high-BST mon with a strong and versatile stat distribution, a fantastic ability, and access to the utility options provided by base Rotom's Ghost typing. Lanturn's a good example of a mon that shares a typing with a Rotom form but is almost completely outclassed by it.
I was a little confused about your Platinum comments until I realised that I've never played Platinum with access to the event room in the Galactic Eterna Building, so I've only used Rotom's underwhelming regular form in a Plat playthrough.
From my understanding, what makes OHKO moves threatening is that they are great against passive Pokémon like Cresselia, Chansey, Toxapex, and Slowking to name a few. These Pokémon are too passive enough to a point that OHKO user could just set up substitutes and proceed to spam OHKO moves due to the lack of power. It’s actually a common tactic on BSS for Pokémon like Glalie, Gliscor, and Articuno to run a OHKO Move + Substitute in order to run through defensive cores. Of course, if you use it against offensive Pokémon like Cindrace, Garchomp, and Thundurus, it’s much more risky because giving these Pokemon free turns to set up can be game losing, But on the other hand, if you connect, it’a a free KO.Another move that bothers me is Stealth Rocks, which I’m sure isn’t an unpopular opinion. But idk why everyone makes such a big deal out of Safety Boots. They’re just a half-assed solution to a completely unnecessary and broken move that has no reason to exist. Yes, let’s force all of those INCREDIBLY broken Bug/Flying types to waste their item slots to protect against a move that makes them lose 50% of their health for switching in. I’m glad we don’t have Beautifly terrorizing the metagame anymore
But instead, let’s ban the incredibly broken 30% accuracy, 8 PP OHKO moves that no one who actually cares about winning would ever use.
On a similar note, if OHKO moves were allowed, I’m sure Articuno would be a higher tier, since it’s pretty darn good user of it thanks to high bulk, Roost, Pressure, and Heavy Duty Boots especially; with Sheer Cold getting rid of Articuno’s biggest flaw of not touching Steel Types.
On the type chart specifically, my only wish is that a Ghost get another resistance. As much as I love Ghost, I think only having one resist and one immunity is too little, especially when one can’t do anything offensively back. It makes Ghost extremely spammable as a result, with Ghost/Fighting and Ghost/Fairy being unresisted. A lot of people argue that the low base power of Ghost moves hold it back, but I disagree because it is still very spammable. Look a Calyrex-Shadow and how it dominates every format it plays in to the point that it is being suspect tested in AG. Mimikyu dominates BSS thanks to Disguise and unresisted STAB mostly. Spectrier was banned due to high attacking stats and how Good ghost was offensively.
I think Hail should get a Stat Boost as well, just because it’s the only weather that doesn’t boost an attribute. A 50% Speed would compliment the offensive nature of Ice perfectly.
On topic of types, I do agree that there are too many types and a lot of them overlap either offensively and defensively like, Rock/Ground, Flying/Normal, Psychic/Ghost, and Dragon/Ice/Fairy. And that’s not taking consideration how STAB makes things even harder to balance: Dragon is outclassed by Fairy and Ice in forms of super effective coverage, but is great STAB hence dominance prior to Gen 6. A lot of types were intentionally designed to be better than others for the Single player aspect of Pokémon, like how Dragon has often higher BSTs and good moves because it was intentionally designed to be a Boss type, look at Dragonite in RBY, Garchomp in DP, and Salamence in RS.
Allow me to politely disagree with this.
Caly-Shadow is a similar case to Xerneas or Zacian, where the issue isn't it's typing but literally everything else. Absurly high stats, special-moxie (on top of negating resist berries), high BP stab, Nasty Plot, and coverage to hit what his stabs cannot hit aka dark types.
With these stats, Caly-ghost could be bug/flying and still probably be ridicolously strong.
I think it's reasonable enough that if Rotom is using the appliance as a body to fight in that it takes on a typing related to the appliance (and giving it Steel for all of them because Machine feels equally bland).
What I'm less a fan of is that Rotom's typing becomes Electric/[Appliance] specifically in all these combinations, partially because of some 20/20 hindsight, where most "possessed object" Pokemon tend to be Ghost/Secondary. I always interpreted Rotom as using its electricity to power the appliance (compared to most Mons like this just manipulating a physical body like Aegislash's Sword, Golurk's Golem, Polteageist's Pot) and then directing its function into whatever attacks it did, so what you'd be left with for the being to interact with is the Ghostly "shell" around the Fire/Ice/Water/etc. machine.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
You make a good point about Rotom's electricity being "used up" by inhabiting whatever machine it's in so Ghost/[type] is probably the more logical combination and yeah if it's inside a toaster then hitting it with Water moves should by rights do super-effective damage. Though given that it becomes "solid" in its new form, Ghost/[type] doesn't really work either - if it's possessing a fridge, that fridge shouldn't suddenly become intangible.
So I'm still given to thinking that neither Electric/[type] or Ghost/[type] is the ideal typing for it.
There's some discussion right now on the "things that annoy you" thread about Levitate's suitability as an ability and this reminded me of that. There are some Pokemon for whom levitating, and by extension being immune to Ground moves, is an integral part of their design yet are not Flying-type (Weezing, for instance). It's as integral to their design as, say, Slaking's Truant. A Slaking that did not have Truant wouldn't be properly embodying Slaking's design (though part of me thinks it'd be hilarious if they gave Slaking Slow Start as a Hidden Ability).
Some Pokemon embody more than two types yet the type system as it stands does not support this - thus abilities provide a way to embody that third type. Dhelmise is the neatest example of what I mean as it was very clearly designed to be equal parts Steel, Ghost, and Grass; its ability simulates the added Steel-type.*
I think this logic is sort of backwards with Rotom (which of course has Levitate but that's separate to the point I'm making). In Rotom's case, the additional move it learns is what should symbolise the new typing. Because that additional typing it gains from whatever machine it's in doesn't do anything else for it - it gives STAB to one extra move it gets, but its learnsets aren't different overall; it's not like it only gets Will-o-Wisp in its Heat Form. And there's an obvious example with Fan Rotom how the new typing doesn't do much for it.
______
*Kinda thinking now that Gyarados should have gotten a Dragon-type equivalent to Steelworker.
To add onto this a bit, SwSh and really the other core series games have a strong replayability factor to them. L:A is an experience I like and would recommend others to try, BUT I will agree it is not a game that's really meant to be replayed. L:A is more a game that wants you to take your time and get the most from your single playthrough experience, mainly via completing the Pokedex Tasks. The changes to the battling mechanics emphasize this, it's not the competitive minded system we're used to and that's the points, its meant to be more like a more action-packed RPG where your character has more options and able to do stronger or more frequent attacks.
Because of this, I wouldn't write off any future games in the Legends style unless you just really didn't like the style. You just gotta go into the game with the appropriate mindset, that it's not a core series game which is a general streamline experience, but rather something you should take your time with and maybe spend an hour or two between story beats to explore the areas to gather materials or fill out you dex tasks (which would also include using many different Pokemon). I found my L:A times to be rather relaxing, in particular I took to the hiding in the tall grass mechanic and silently walking around until the opportunity came to strike!
I agree, Sound just fits better as just a Move trait (which I also think they should do with Light, plenty of Light-based moves which they could design some Items and Abilities to manipulate).
Not so sure about this. Like, yes, "Regal" as a theme certainly has a lot of potential... but as a Type? Like, what would the Type Match-Ups be? Unlike Bug, Ghost, Dragon & Fairy there's really nothing you can solidly say a "Regal" would be weak to or resist. Like, the ONLY thing I could think of is them being weak to Poison because that's a popular story way of getting rid of a ruler, but what else? Would they be weak to Steel because royalty is also often killed by bladed weapons? Would they resist... uh, I don't know, Normal because they're royalty and not peasants?
While an initial logical conclusion, at the same time what this means is that if they do this then when they introduce the new Type then the only new Type combinations people have to expect would be for the new Type, which could be a bit boring. Having some Types combos still yet to be done (or have only been done by one other Pokemon/family so feels rare) gives new Pokemon that aren't for the new Type have a chance to excite the fans still. Not that an established Type combo couldn't do that if they bring a new angle to it, but a never before done/rare Type combo is an easier way for a new Pokemon to drum up excitement for players to use it.
You're right... what we instead need is TRIPLE Type Pokemon.
Well because a made a list a while ago here are all the Move I consider having the "Light" trait (though I may need to update it with some new Moves introduced this Gen):
- ATTACKS: Hyper Beam, Judgement, Swift, Techno Blast, Tri Attack, Oblivion Wing, Power Gem, Signal Beam, Moongeist Beam, Doom Desire, Flash Cannon, Mirror Shot, Origin Pulse, Solar Beam, Luster Purge, Mirror Coat?, Prismatic Laser, Psybeam, Aurora Beam, Dazzling Gleam, & Light of Ruin
- STATUS: Flash, Light Screen, Reflect, Aurora Veil, Safeguard, Spotlight, Tail Glow, Confuse Ray, Barrier?, & Magic Coat?
Once again, what's the Type Match-Ups? This feels too broad, sounds more like how you would describe the differences a Regional Variant has to its original.
Okay, to give an idea, here's my two new Type ideas in a spoiler box just so for those who don't care they can just keep reading.
RUBBER:
Things its weak to would be Types that would jeopardize this (Steel cuts it, Fire melts it, Ice freezes & degrades it).
Its resistant to Types that attacks would either bounce off it or just be unable to stick.
Immune to Electric (as the Team Rocket Trio know very well).
Types weak to it I see being natural Types that are harmed by pollution (Grass & Fairy) as well as Electric because Rubber interrupts its energy flow.
And the Types that resist it are Types a soft material would have a hard time doing damage against.
ALIEN:
For weaknesses I imagine the Alien-type being vulnerable to microoganisms or substances foreign to it (Poison & Grass), extreme temperatures which it would have to normally shield from being a space traveler (Fire & Ice), and its own tech.
It would meanwhile be resistant to the supernatural or magical as its a foreign being therefore such things have no meaning to it.
Types weak to Alien I took the approach of it being aspects of a creature of the visiting planet seeing this strange creature ascending from the skies. Scared, unsure how to fight against it, it's a complete unknown. And this would equally apply to any species encountering an "alien" being, even if by our view that species is also alien.
Finally the Types resistant to Alien would be either the durable materials or beings who think differently (Bug) or outside-the-box (Dark) thus aren't as freaked out.
I'm sure people on here can tear apart my Types and how they wouldn't work with the Type Chart we have now, but my point is that one of a new Type's first order of business would be how it fits into the Type Chart. Because without that a Type isn't a Type, it's a theme or trait that's best left for the Pokemon's design or battling mechanics.
- Weakness: Steel, Fire, Ice
- Resistance: Normal, Fighting, Ground, Bug, Water, Grass, Alien, Rubber
- Immunity: Electric
- Weak To Rubber: Grass, Electric, Fairy
- Resistant to Rubber: Rock, Steel, Fire, Rubber
- Color: Cerise
- Symbol: Mobius Strip
- Pokemon Re-type: Jigglypuff family (Rubber/Fairy), Wobbuffet (Psychic/Rubber), Trubbish family (Poison/Rubber), Donphan (Ground/Rubber)
Things its weak to would be Types that would jeopardize this (Steel cuts it, Fire melts it, Ice freezes & degrades it).
Its resistant to Types that attacks would either bounce off it or just be unable to stick.
Immune to Electric (as the Team Rocket Trio know very well).
Types weak to it I see being natural Types that are harmed by pollution (Grass & Fairy) as well as Electric because Rubber interrupts its energy flow.
And the Types that resist it are Types a soft material would have a hard time doing damage against.
ALIEN:
- Weakness: Poison, Fire, Grass, Ice, Alien
- Resistance: Ghost, Psychic, Dragon, Fairy
- Weak To Alien: Normal, Fighting, Psychic, Alien
- Resistant to Alien: Bug, Steel, Dark, Rubber
- Color: Dark Green
- Symbol: UFO
- Pokemon Re-type: Deoxys (Pure Alien; Psycho Boost changed to Alien-type), Clefairy family (Fairy/Alien), Lunatone & Solrock (Rock/Alien), Elgyem family (Psychic/Alien)
For weaknesses I imagine the Alien-type being vulnerable to microoganisms or substances foreign to it (Poison & Grass), extreme temperatures which it would have to normally shield from being a space traveler (Fire & Ice), and its own tech.
It would meanwhile be resistant to the supernatural or magical as its a foreign being therefore such things have no meaning to it.
Types weak to Alien I took the approach of it being aspects of a creature of the visiting planet seeing this strange creature ascending from the skies. Scared, unsure how to fight against it, it's a complete unknown. And this would equally apply to any species encountering an "alien" being, even if by our view that species is also alien.
Finally the Types resistant to Alien would be either the durable materials or beings who think differently (Bug) or outside-the-box (Dark) thus aren't as freaked out.
I'm sure people on here can tear apart my Types and how they wouldn't work with the Type Chart we have now, but my point is that one of a new Type's first order of business would be how it fits into the Type Chart. Because without that a Type isn't a Type, it's a theme or trait that's best left for the Pokemon's design or battling mechanics.
I think they can find another Ability for the Lotad family and Morelull family. Or, have it so they heal even more HP.
Honestly at this point the only way to address the Ice-types shortcomings I think, besides making speedier Ice-types, is to have Hail give a buff to their Ice-type moves to be more likely to freeze. Freezing is sorta the only gimmick Ice-types have aside from their Moves being SE against Dragon (and you don't need an Ice-type for that). "But Freezing is OP" Then they should work with the Freezing mechanic to not make it OP. No, I'm not saying they should replace it with L:A's Frostbite, but really think about how being Frozen affects a Pokemon. Once again, going into my personal idea notes:
* Thawing: After the freezing turn, chance of thaw increases by 15% (Turn 1 is 15%, Turn 2 is 30%, Turn 3 is 45%, etc.). But there are some factors which can alter this:
* Frozen Pokemon receive half damage from all types except:
- Ice moves decreases chance of thawing by 5%; 10% if the move can freeze and would have done so if the target wasn't already frozen.
- Hail decreases chance of thawing by 5%.
- If attacked with a Physical move that isn't Fire, Fighting, Rock, & Steel, chance of thawing increases by +5%.
- Sunlight increase chance of thawing by +10%.
- A Fire, Fighting, Rock, & Steel used on the target will free it after damage; User can use Fire move to free itself.
- Certain Status Moves instantly thaw: Refresh, Bulk Up, Growth, Shell Smash, Shift Gear
* Frozen Pokemon receive half damage from all types except:
- Ghost, Electric, Ice, Psychic, & Fairy is calculated normally.
- Fire, Fighting, Rock, & Steel have their power doubled (but frees the Frozen Pokemon).
- Boosting: Amnesia, Calm Mind, Charge, Cosmic Power, Focus Energy, Geomancy, Harden, Iron Defense, Laser Focus, Meditate, Minimize, Nasty Plot, Power Trick, Stockpile, Tail Glow, Withdraw, Work Up
- Type Changing: Conversion (2/Z), Camouflage (user becomes Ice-type)
- Healing: Healing Wish, Moonlight, Morning Sun, Recover, Slack Off, Swallow, Synthesis, Wish
- Other: Curse, Destiny Bond, Imprison, Magic Coat, Assis/Copycat (fails if not a usable move while Frozen)
- Ally Switch frees the user but makes the targeted Pokemon Frozen instead.
NEW HAIL & SNOW EFFECTS:
* There's a difference between Snowing & Hailing:
* Water-types lose their resistance to Ice-types.
* Moves with a chance to Freeze increase their chance by 50%. Doubles if the Pokemon is weak to Ice (Dragon, Flying, Grass, Ground) or is a Water-type.
* Prevents non-Fire-type moves from Burning (Tri Attack, Scald, Beak Blast, etc.).
* Affected Items: Never-Melt Ice/Icicle Plate/Ice Gem (Increases Power by +10)
* Following affects only in Hail:
* There's a difference between Snowing & Hailing:
- There's no Move that summons Snow, it's strictly an overworld effect.
- Snow can turn to Hail if an Ice-type is sent out (this explains why Snow Warning still summons Hail since only Ice-types have that Ability) or the move Hail is used (Hail summons Hail weather even if there's no Ice-type on the field).
- If Snow was turned into Hail it'll revert back to Snow when the Hail ends.
- If it's just Snowing then no Pokemon receives damage at the end of each turn but all other affects still happen. All Abilities (Ice Body, Slush Rush, Snow Cloak, Forecast), Moves (Blizzard, Weather Ball, Solar Beam/Blade, Moonlihgt/Synthesis/Morning Sun, Aurora Veil), & Items (Icy Rock) that are affected or affect Hail also do so with Snow.
* Water-types lose their resistance to Ice-types.
* Moves with a chance to Freeze increase their chance by 50%. Doubles if the Pokemon is weak to Ice (Dragon, Flying, Grass, Ground) or is a Water-type.
* Prevents non-Fire-type moves from Burning (Tri Attack, Scald, Beak Blast, etc.).
* Affected Items: Never-Melt Ice/Icicle Plate/Ice Gem (Increases Power by +10)
* Following affects only in Hail:
- Non-Ice- & Fire-types receive 1/16 of max HP damage at end of turn.
- Blizzard hits through Protect & it's variants 30% of the time.
- Increases Special Defense of Ice-types by 20%.
But you're not harming the appliance, you're harming Rotom. It's only possessing the appliance and using it to give itself more power, but when you attack you're harming Rotom's essence which is its Ghost-type + whatever Type it has absorbed from the power of the appliance its inhabiting.
I enjoyed playing through L:A despite the issues I have with it (though it did sadly frustrate me a bit too often). I also took my time with it, I explored most areas in detail, catching Pokémon and picking up items. Training 2-3 teams was also fun. I might be a bit too negative towards the game sometimes, but in the end, I think the 94 hours I spent on the game were worth it. I really disliked the changes to the battle system though. The changes might have made battles faster, but it made them less fun for me. L:A was okay, but it was not my dream Pokémon game and it is far from the best action RPG I have played.
I liked the style of the game (in general), there were just several major and minor issues I had with it that made it less enjoyable. I disliked the changes to the battle system, the Noble battles, the inconvenient and artificial traveling, the lack of some basic QoL features and the aggressive wild Pokémon. There were also many things that I have mixed feelings about such as the Ride Pokémon and the controls. I made a more detailed post about my issues with the game in the annoyances thread a while ago, though I think you have read it so I won't repeat it all again. That said, there were also many things I liked about the game. The "linear open world" layout was perfect, I liked the requests and missions (and having a list of them!), seamless battle transitions, exploring (for the most part) and working on the Pokédex. And most important of all, being able to nickname my Pokémon directly on the party screen! Also Enamorus, one of my top favorite Pokémon.
I can't really say I found it relaxing, it was more stressful since I far too often found myself having to run from aggressive wild Pokémon or Alphas, or being forced to battle them. In the end, whether I buy any future Legends games comes down to if they keep the issues from Arceus or if they make a better job with the future games. I think there is a lot of potential to make a really great Legends-style game, but I'm sadly not really expecting it to happen. I'd rather have them take the best parts of both Legends and the regular main series games and combine it into the ultimate Pokémon game! I'm definitely not expecting that to happen though. And we're getting into wishlisting territory, so I'll stop here.
Moving on to something else. I said earlier that I like Sword, but upon replaying it, I also remembered two things I do not like about it. Saying that I "enjoyed every second of the game" in a previous post was not really true. I think that disliking these two things is unpopular, so I'm posting them here.
The first one is Max Raids. I am not a fan of "unfair" battles in Pokémon, and Max Raids are a perfect example of that. The opponent is always Dynamaxed while you are limited to three turns as usual. The opponent can attack multiple times on the same turn, reset your stats and Abilities, as well as create shields which you need to break in order to damage it further. You are also limited to four "lives" and if you lose all of them, you automatically lose and get thrown out of the Den. Playing with AI partners can also be very risky as they can make very stupid moves. That said, I think low-star Raids are okay, but I am definitely not a fan of the high-star ones. Thankfully, Max Raids are optional for the most part. They are one feature I definitely won't miss in S/V.
The second is partly related to the above: Dynamax Adventures. For similar reasons to the regular Max Raids, they are basically unfair battles. I definitely prefer the traditional way of catching legendaries. I think games like OR/AS and US/UM did them better. US/UM could have done the Ultra Warp Ride better, but the actual catching process was great.
Last edited:
This has actually been explored on Smogon with Hidden/Bonus Type OM.
While you could choose your type and Pokemon didn’t get extra moves, most of what Wolf said was very wrong.
The Defensive resistances (which reduce damage by half in addition to immunities) matters way more than STAB (which gives a 1.5x bonus to certain moves). Rarely did a Pokemon have their bonus typing SOLELY for STAB. Urshifu would use Steel/Poison/Electric for STAB IH/PJ/TP but still benefited from the defensive utility. Kyurem used Ground for STAB Earthpower, but also giving it great resistances too. However, Pokemon like Magnezone used Flying and Mandibuzz would use Poison for their defensive utility only.
Also his examples are pretty bad.
Like in the video, Wolfie says that STAB would be bad because it’d give offensive Pokemon too much of a buff using Fighting Mamoswine vs Rotom-Wash as an example. But Mamoswine gets to be Ice/Ground/Fighting, but Rotom-Wash wouldn’t be Electric/Ghost/Water because? Also Fighting Mamoswine (which doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense) would benefit greatly defensively since it’s resistant to Rock and Stealth Rocks now.
Doesn’t help at all that the opponent can use multi-target moves multiple times in the same turn, or the fact that Perish Song can affect all of the player’s Pokémon and allies.
Don’t forget Zygarde always comes with Power Construct in Dynamax Adventures. That would be epic giving effectively two phases if it weren’t for the big issues you pointed out earlier.
The Battle Chatelaines did the Battle Facility Head role right.
These four are often overlooked. They tend to be ignored or disliked for replacing the Battle Frontier heads in ORAS. Despite this, they have the most jacked up teams of any Battle Facility Head.
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Nita#Super_Single_Battle_.28on_50th_consecutive_battle.29
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Evelyn#Super_Double_Battle_.28on_50th_consecutive_battle.29
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Dana#Super_Triple_Battle_.28on_50th_consecutive_battle.29
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/...ation_Battle_.28on_50th_consecutive_battle.29
The Battle Chatelaines have insane teams stacked entirely with powerful legendaries each and show themselves to be really scary in battle. Many people don't like this because there's no context as to how they got these legendaries (tbf there's never context for how anyone in a battle facility got a legendary), but it shows how these four trainers are effective heads of their battle facility and can even be fun to face off against. Nita's team in particular is insane because she has three legendary genies with moves and items to cover up for their weaknesses. You have to actually strategize around finding a clear way to maneuver through them sometimes and can even easily lose if you get lucked out by Tornadus.
Battle Facilities are made to be challenging aspects of the Pokemon games. In each of these, the player builds themselves up to face off stronger and stronger trainers throughout their streak. Once the player reaches (28+ wins before Gen 6, 40+ wins in Gens 6-7), they are able to face off against higher level trainers with stronger Pokemon, including teams with lower tier legendaries. Battle Facility Heads are supposed to be leaders of these; the strongest of them all, but plenty of them have teams that just don't cut it.
Here are some examples:
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Lucy#Gold_Symbol_challenge
- Pike Queen Lucy is head of the Battle Pike, one of the seven facilities in the Emerald Battle Frontier. In her final match she leads off with a Seviper and a Steelix. Two Pokemon that are pretty subpar for how far you have to go, where other trainers on this level in challenges have Tyranitar, Dragonite, and Latios. I get the theme of the Battle Pike were supposed to be serpents, but I don't get the purpose of it if it just stunts what Pokemon the leader can use to an extent this significant.
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Emmet#On_49th_consecutive_battle
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ingo#On_49th_consecutive_battle
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Emmet#On_49th_consecutive_battle_2
- Ingo and Emmet are leaders of the Battle Subway. While this is a good battle facility of its own, the heads could've had better Pokemon. If people are running stuff like Cresselia, Heatran, Salamence, Ferrothorn, and Garchomp before you reach them, plenty of regular trainers can have noticeably better teams than Ingo and Emmet before you reach them.
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/...ingle_Battle_.28on_50th_consecutive_battle.29
- Red is known as a Battle Legend but is a really awful offender of this same issue. I've had a 50 streak run where he ended up being easier than all 49 trainers it took to reach him because of how subpar his Pokemon were for a streak this high. His team is objectively worse than most if not all the previous 10 trainers you face off before him and could easily be the easiest match you battle in a 50 streak if you are that unfortunate. He holds the position of Battle Legend and Battle Tree head when he really should not.
On another note, the Battle Chatelaines have more real personality than any other Battle Facility Head I've ever seen. Nita is very rash and hasty, Evelyn is very shy, Dana is very sassy but is a little afraid of Morgan, Morgan is very careful and the most mature about the way she treats players. She is also the de-facto leader of the group.
Battle Facility Heads did not need to have as strong of personalities as they did and I didn't expect to see the Battle Chatelaines like this but it was a nice touch to have this in the games they were in.
===============================================================================================
On another note the Battle Maison as a whole is overlooked. I used to overlook it for the longest time because it wasn't seen as great, but was forced to try it out because it was the only way to get Porygon-Z in Alpha Sapphire. I've discovered that, if I'm not going crazy, the Battle Maison seems to be like a Battle Frontier in one building.
The Platinum Battle Frontier was 5 different modes for the player to challenge themselves and get rewarded in, with each being in different buildings.
The Battle Maison was 5 different modes for the player to challenge themselves and get rewarded in, with each being in the same building.
The main difference is that instead of having them all required to be singles and singles with different sprinkles on top, each of these modes were more vastly different. One was singles, one was doubles, one was triples, one was rotational, and one was doubles but you had to work with someone else. Five entirely different playstyles the game tries to have you master as opposed to one.
These four are often overlooked. They tend to be ignored or disliked for replacing the Battle Frontier heads in ORAS. Despite this, they have the most jacked up teams of any Battle Facility Head.
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Nita#Super_Single_Battle_.28on_50th_consecutive_battle.29
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Evelyn#Super_Double_Battle_.28on_50th_consecutive_battle.29
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Dana#Super_Triple_Battle_.28on_50th_consecutive_battle.29
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/...ation_Battle_.28on_50th_consecutive_battle.29
The Battle Chatelaines have insane teams stacked entirely with powerful legendaries each and show themselves to be really scary in battle. Many people don't like this because there's no context as to how they got these legendaries (tbf there's never context for how anyone in a battle facility got a legendary), but it shows how these four trainers are effective heads of their battle facility and can even be fun to face off against. Nita's team in particular is insane because she has three legendary genies with moves and items to cover up for their weaknesses. You have to actually strategize around finding a clear way to maneuver through them sometimes and can even easily lose if you get lucked out by Tornadus.
Battle Facilities are made to be challenging aspects of the Pokemon games. In each of these, the player builds themselves up to face off stronger and stronger trainers throughout their streak. Once the player reaches (28+ wins before Gen 6, 40+ wins in Gens 6-7), they are able to face off against higher level trainers with stronger Pokemon, including teams with lower tier legendaries. Battle Facility Heads are supposed to be leaders of these; the strongest of them all, but plenty of them have teams that just don't cut it.
Here are some examples:
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Lucy#Gold_Symbol_challenge
- Pike Queen Lucy is head of the Battle Pike, one of the seven facilities in the Emerald Battle Frontier. In her final match she leads off with a Seviper and a Steelix. Two Pokemon that are pretty subpar for how far you have to go, where other trainers on this level in challenges have Tyranitar, Dragonite, and Latios. I get the theme of the Battle Pike were supposed to be serpents, but I don't get the purpose of it if it just stunts what Pokemon the leader can use to an extent this significant.
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Emmet#On_49th_consecutive_battle
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ingo#On_49th_consecutive_battle
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Emmet#On_49th_consecutive_battle_2
- Ingo and Emmet are leaders of the Battle Subway. While this is a good battle facility of its own, the heads could've had better Pokemon. If people are running stuff like Cresselia, Heatran, Salamence, Ferrothorn, and Garchomp before you reach them, plenty of regular trainers can have noticeably better teams than Ingo and Emmet before you reach them.
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/...ingle_Battle_.28on_50th_consecutive_battle.29
- Red is known as a Battle Legend but is a really awful offender of this same issue. I've had a 50 streak run where he ended up being easier than all 49 trainers it took to reach him because of how subpar his Pokemon were for a streak this high. His team is objectively worse than most if not all the previous 10 trainers you face off before him and could easily be the easiest match you battle in a 50 streak if you are that unfortunate. He holds the position of Battle Legend and Battle Tree head when he really should not.
On another note, the Battle Chatelaines have more real personality than any other Battle Facility Head I've ever seen. Nita is very rash and hasty, Evelyn is very shy, Dana is very sassy but is a little afraid of Morgan, Morgan is very careful and the most mature about the way she treats players. She is also the de-facto leader of the group.
Battle Facility Heads did not need to have as strong of personalities as they did and I didn't expect to see the Battle Chatelaines like this but it was a nice touch to have this in the games they were in.
===============================================================================================
On another note the Battle Maison as a whole is overlooked. I used to overlook it for the longest time because it wasn't seen as great, but was forced to try it out because it was the only way to get Porygon-Z in Alpha Sapphire. I've discovered that, if I'm not going crazy, the Battle Maison seems to be like a Battle Frontier in one building.
The Platinum Battle Frontier was 5 different modes for the player to challenge themselves and get rewarded in, with each being in different buildings.
The Battle Maison was 5 different modes for the player to challenge themselves and get rewarded in, with each being in the same building.
The main difference is that instead of having them all required to be singles and singles with different sprinkles on top, each of these modes were more vastly different. One was singles, one was doubles, one was triples, one was rotational, and one was doubles but you had to work with someone else. Five entirely different playstyles the game tries to have you master as opposed to one.
The classic problem of random gauntlets with fixed bosses.
You can prepare yourself for the boss you are guaranteed to encounter, but everything beforehand is a lot more risky, for they may suddenly carry exactly what counters your composition with no way to see it coming.
Like Diablo II's Uniques and Superuniques being a lot more dangerous than the Act Bosses.
This was a really excellent post and I agree with pretty much everything you said. I wanted to reply but I don't really know what to say because you summed it all up so perfectly. But I have some short thoughts on a few subjects.
I agree. I love the Subway and the challenge it presents, but Ingo and Emmet have pretty bad teams, sadly. They should have had better teams.
This is one thing I totally love. I am pretty sure the Chatelaines have the most personality out of any facility bosses in the games. In comparison, I have recently realized that many other facility bosses are a bit lacking in this aspect. Back when I played Emerald when it was new, I remember thinking that the Frontier Brains were great characters with a lot of personality. But now that I look back, I think I just glorified them in my head because of the challenge they presented. They aren't as bad as some of the really flat characters in the series (like the Gym Leaders in Gen 1), but they are still far from the greatness of the Chatelaines.
Personally, I have had mixed experiences with battling Red. I have lost against him once, but I have won against him all other times I faced him. I think one thing that can make him difficult is his Charizard. Since it can Mega Evolve into either X or Y (or not Mega Evolve at all if he Megas another Pokémon), it is a bit unpredictable. But I guess he suffers from the same fate as other bosses; he is easy since you know what he runs (or at least what he can run) before the battle starts, making it predictable to an extent.
Yeah. As a Facility player, it makes me very happy to see people show some appreciation for the Maison. It was quite popular during the Gen 6 days as evidenced by our Maison thread here on the forums. It has the most replies of all the threads in the Battle Facilities forum and I remember using it a lot for inspiration when I battled at the Maison.
"No Battle Frontier" has become a negative tagline for OR/AS, sadly. It is a shame people don't see the greatness of the Maison. Personally, I used to be in the same boat. At first, I was unhappy about OR/AS not having the Battle Frontier. But after playing OR/AS, I found that the Maison was enough. Playing through it again, using some of the new Megas and some different strategies compared to what I used in X/Y... it was honestly fun enough. Nowadays, I think I enjoyed the Maison more than the Emerald Frontier. Now that's an unpopular opinion! Anyway, the Maison is one of my three favorites from the standard Battle Facilities. The Subway and the Tree are the other two. All three are great but in somewhat different ways.
And whenever this discussion is brought up, there's one thing I'm always wondering about. I often see people complain about the Frontier missing from OR/AS. But I wonder how many of those actually battled in the Emerald Frontier, and how many of them would have battled in the Frontier if it had been brought back in OR/AS? How many of them are Facility players to begin with? Did they even try the Maison in OR/AS (or X/Y, for that matter) or did they decide to miss out on all the fun it has to offer? It would be fun to do a study about this subject but I really don't have the time for that, or any idea of how to do it in a good way.
My interpretation is not that they are mad at the absence of the Battle Frontier (maybe disappointed but not really annoyed), but the fact it was teased, giving a feeling of "we could have added it, but we didn't want to".
As someone who's put a lot of time into both, the Maison does have its merits. However, a lack of nonstandard formats, which the Emerald Frontier had a lot of, is an easy to notice area where it can be improved. So the Maison doesn't necessarily lose out to the Emerald Frontier as is, but definitely loses out to the ideal of what an ORAS Frontier could have been. I'm still waiting for the chance to use Power-up Punch in the Arena.
As fine as the Maison was, it was, as I remember, a direct port from the XY Maison, not even bothering to reskin it so it didn't look out of place (the RSE tower, for instance, still looks pretty nice). That was one of the reasons it fell flat for me. The Battle Frontier was really great, and going through those facilities again with new pokemon and mechanics was a huge potential draw for me. However, I would have been just as happy if they replaced it with something new and equally fun. Since I wasn't getting functionality I didn't already have, it didn't feel like a new addition. And even then, when I did spend time in the maison, I was not impressed with the experience. The quality of life improvements in the Gen 5 subway and the opponent pokemon set improvements of the BDSP tower gave me enough reason to come back in those cases. As I remember, gen 6 had not updated their sets sufficiently to account for the improved power the player had access to through mega evolutions and more access to hidden abilities, and it was stale.