The De-Uberization.

[Aeroblacktyl]

Haha that's funny cause Donphan can't even 2hko Garchomp

but that's besides the point

the point is, any other poke could be set up that normally would have a hardass time switching in etc etc etc

 

[Lyfsaho]

If you want to play what if games, what if I switch to something like Infernape, which completely destroys the rest of your team? Hypothetical games can go either way.

You switch to Infernape, and while I switch out you Nasty Plot? Be my guest while I switch Starmie in.

 

[Raikou]

Have any of you watched the Wobbufett video?

Oh, and if Wobbuffet gets 2HKO'd, it can't Mirror Coat/Counter.

Have you? Because it proves my point exactly. The turn Wobb switches out, you are still stuck, which is a free switch. Since you are still under the effects of encore, you must switch while their newly switched in Pokemon sets up. PLEASE use your brain.

 

[Jediment]

Sure, there are things that can 2HKO Wobbuffet. Choice Band Heracross Megahorn gets a guaranteed OHKO in fact. But if you were using Wobby, why in hell would you let your opponent hit you with a Choice Band Megahorn? If Wobby switched in on Close Combat (the logical decision), he's 4HKO'd and has no problems removing Heracross with Counter - no Encore required. Just because Wobbuffet has "counters" (can you call them that?) in OU doesn't mean he is an OU; keep in mind that a Pokemon doesn't have to be able to sweep every team 6-0 to be Uber. It has to over-centralize the metagame.

 

[footballfanatic]

Free switch ins make something Uber now?

First of all, if you Encore something that attacks instead stat-ups/status, then the free switch in is void.

Second of all, you do realize that 1. Dugtrio already does this, and 2. People get free switch ins all the time(Immunities...hello?), it's hardly game breaking and in no way makes Wobby uber.

With the offensive nature of D/P, how many times is Wobby going to be switching in in a match? If it switches in on an Outraging Garchomp, it will be left at 16% maximum, you'll kill Garchomp, sure...(something Weavile already accomplishes), but who else are you going to be able to switch in on and counter?

I'm not saying that is should be OU, but it shouldn't just be written off.

 

[MegaMewtwo]

First of all, if you Encore something that attacks instead stat-ups/status, then the free switch in is void.

If you Encore an attack, you keep Wobby in to counter it, or switch to something that resists it or is immune. Duh.

 

[Jediment]

How many Pokemon on your team know a Fighting attack? And how often do you use one? Each one of those is a chance for Wobby to switch in.

Dugtrio doesn't drap fliers.

You don't just get a free switch in, you get a free turn after that. To do whatever you want.

So Wobbuffet doesn't counter everything. Arceus doesn't counter everything.

 

[DemonOfWrath]

You could also Encore a move that something you have is immune to, again with my previous sub SD haxchomp example you Encore an electric move, switch, same result as if you Encore'd a stat-up or TW. And the difference between Duggy and Wobb is that Wobb can take hits and allow for its teammates to setup free, Duggy either kills something or doesn't.

You can also theoretically heal Wobb with say, Wish, and some prediction so it can do it's job again.

 

[Raikou]

Footballfanatic, actually read some of the previous posts in this thread before posting another rant and you will find counters to every argument you've put forth. My first post even explained your example involving Dugtrio.

I am guessing you don't play competitive Pokemon much, I suggest you do before you throw out incorrect data left and right to people who do. Wobbuffet doesn't just give free kills and free switches, he gives free switches AND setup. That's all some things which are fragile but dangerous need and its gg.

However, I wouldn't worry because none of the smogon staff smoke enough crack to ever allow Wobb into OU. We're better off discussing things like Manaphy, Mew etc.

 

[Lyfsaho]

If you Encore an attack, you keep Wobby in to counter it, or switch to something that resists it or is immune. Duh.

Because you have something immune to everything encored in the metagame?

Example: Weezing gets switched into your Gyara. You bring in Wobba, taking the Tbolt. The Weezing will o wisp's, you encore him and get burned in the process. Now, whatever you switch in WILL still get burned unless it is a fire pokemon (aka Ape), which is never pleasant and immediately rules out tons of setup-ers. Not to mention being burned isn't Wobba's dream either.

 

[IggyBot]

except, it does.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K-KlWuTRoFA

inform yourself first, talk second.

Also, that video just proved exactly what everyone is talking about, it was obviously you who didn't understand.

 

[Lyfsaho]

Also, that video just proved exactly what everyone is talking about, it was obviously you who didn't understand.

please don't presume to tell me what I may or may not understand. I made that video, if you haven't noticed. And I posted it here in answer to a person who did not realize how shadow tag functioned, not to anything else.

go back to saying how Wobbuffet can switch into anything ,take the hit easily, encore while taking a second hit easily, and then switch out / retaliate with counter mirror coat after taking a third hit easily. more people will listen to you that way.

 

[Bologo]

Because you have something immune to everything encored in the metagame?

Example: Weezing gets switched into your Gyara. You bring in Wobba, taking the Tbolt. The Weezing will o wisp's, you encore him and get burned in the process. Now, whatever you switch in WILL still get burned unless it is a fire pokemon (aka Ape), which is never pleasant and immediately rules out tons of setup-ers. Not to mention being burned isn't Wobba's dream either.

Uhh, just don't switch in a physically-based pokemon into the burn then.

Plus, I would switch in Infernape and get a Swords Dance/Nasty Plot off anyway while Weezing has to switch out while I do that. A lot of people use Heatran, Will-O-Wisp also give him free set-up. Milotic is also very common, and if that thing gets a burn, it's going to be extremely hard to kill thanks to Marvel Scale.

Really, using Will-O-Wisp was a really bad example for your argument.

I could just use a Cleric on my team, and Wobbuffet can come back out and do its job again.

 

[footballfanatic]

Footballfanatic, actually read some of the previous posts in this thread before posting another rant and you will find counters to every argument you've put forth. My first post even explained your example involving Dugtrio.

I am guessing you don't play competitive Pokemon much, I suggest you do before you throw out incorrect data left and right to people who do. Wobbuffet doesn't just give free kills and free switches, he gives free switches AND setup. That's all some things which are fragile but dangerous need and its gg.

However, I wouldn't worry because none of the smogon staff smoke enough crack to ever allow Wobb into OU. We're better off discussing things like Manaphy, Mew etc.

Everyone jumps on my case for calling someone dumb/an idiot, I better see someone yell at him. He clearly took a shot at me...at least I base my insults on something rather than just stabbing in the dark with no basis at all.

1 Turn to setup is hardly game breaking and happens on a regular basis in a battle.

Gyarados switches in on a Weavile, the Weavile can't do jack to it and the best it can do is limit it to 1 DD before getting a suitable counter in.

Wobbuffet basically does the same thing, but it requires way more prediction and basically kills Wobbuffet.

Let's say Wobbuffet switches in on a Gyarados as it DDs, now the Gyarados expecting Counter goes for another DD(dumb, but for the sake of arguement) and Wobby Encores it. Now you go to a Sub+SD Garchomp as Gyarados DDs again. Now what? Well, I can go to Cress as Garchomp Subs...and that's that.

Pokemon get a free turn to setup ALL THE TIME, and it doesn't necessarily end the game(unless you're unprepared for it).

 

[evolutia]

Moving into the Manaphy Zone

I'm glad a topic like this came up. The bulk of my post is going to be in regards to Manaphy being banned.

Does anyone have any logs of discussion of the Manaphy banning or logs of battles where Manaphy's brokeness was shown? I'm not looking for theorycraft here I just want straight answers.
---

Now for the theorycraft part. Manaphy has one of the most shallow movepools in ubers and it can even be regarded has shallow in OU. That therein is where Manaphy's weakness lies as it cannot run a set that can counter all of it's potential counters.

I would assume a typical Manaphy would run something like
Rest
Raindance
Surf
Ice beam/Grassknot/Tail Glow

Without Tail Glow Manaphy indeed becomes a great supporter type pokemon, It can power up the likes of Gyarados like Tyranitar powers up Rock type pokemon. A set without Tail Glow would severely lack when it comes to offensive might and depending on it's move choice it can be walled by certain pokemon. If it runs Ice beam Starmie beats it with thunderbolt/thunder and or stalls it out of rain(If Manaphy is running a set with a huge amount of sp def ev's) until Manaphy can no longer recovery properly and has to switch out. Slowbro/Suicune with CM and hp electric as well as CM Blissey with Thunderbolt beat such a set.

If it chooses to run Grassknot, then Celebi would love to come in and CM up in it's face. Sceptile threatens to kill with with a Choice Specs Leaf Storm. Shaymin with Seed Flare forces it out. With a set like that Manaphy still has to fear electric attacks/pokemon who may even use Thunder over thunderbolt to take advantage of Manaphy's Rain. Aboma/Hippo/Tyranitar can switch in on a predicted rest rendering Manaphy useless.

With Tail Glow Manaphy only has Surf as an attacking move (Unless something else is supporting it, I'll get to that later). and Vaporeon/Poliwrath/Lapras/Toxicroak render Manaphy useless as it cannot hurt them period.
Celebi/Shaymin/Sceptile still threaten them with poweful grass type moves
CMBliss/CMSlowbro/Cune with HP electric beat it.

Now for the all out attacker set Manaphy might ruin in conjution with a Raid Dance user with a Wet Rock.

Grass knot
Surf
Tail Glow
Ice beam

A set like that looks fearsome but the Manaphy user has to be weary that it only has a set amount of time to sweep, if it does not use the correct moves or have it's counter's worn down it's not going to beat a team. If the Rain Dancer gets defeated it takes away alot of power from Manaphy. Of course it can still set up on it's own but Either it's going to be slow and bulky or fast in power, in the latter choice Manaphy will lose it's role as a bulky water and won't be able to take his. The bulky Manaphy's speed may hinder it from sweeping.
---

To me Manaphy doesn't seem to be anymore threating than the likes of, Salamence/Tyranitar/Garchomp. Manaphy users will always run a fairly predictable set. Lose to counters because it doesn't have the correct move to hit them. Either be to slow to sweep. Too focused in speed to take hits. Manaphy also has a major problem with weather as Kyogre isn't here to give it endless showers and Tyranitar/Hippo/Aboma render it harmless by switching in on predicted rests.

I really do want to hear the opinions of those who took part in the discussion to have Manaphy banned and perhaps enlighten me more on what I may have missed that made Manaphy so broken. Also to those who said it was tested before and Manaphy was proven broken. Did the metagame change at all since then? I've heard from a number of people that it has.

 

[Jediment]

1. Footballfanatic, your insults are "you're an idiot". He didn't directly insult you.

2. Lyfsaho's video is the most obvious set up I've ever seen. You deliberately sacrificed Wynaut, you played Wobbuffet like an idiot against Salamence (you know Counter, ya know), and the Sub that Tyranitar got is what let him beat Salamence. So in fact, you proved that you're wrong.

3. Fight a Wobbuffet and then talk about how easy it was to eliminate it. Or how easy it was to just work around it.

 

[Lyfsaho]

1. Footballfanatic, your insults are "you're an idiot". He didn't directly insult you.

2. Lyfsaho's video is the most obvious set up I've ever seen. You deliberately sacrificed Wynaut, you played Wobbuffet like an idiot against Salamence (you know Counter, ya know), and the Sub that Tyranitar got is what let him beat Salamence. So in fact, you proved that you're wrong.

3. Fight a Wobbuffet and then talk about how easy it was to eliminate it. Or how easy it was to just work around it.

that video was about shadow tag. nothing else. not meant to show wobba's prowess in competetive battling.
I have fought with / against more than enough wobbuffet's since the release of d/p. It has some unique and delicious options, but they do not suffice to make him a solid uber anymore, at all.


Anyway, lets also look at Manaphy and at the elaborate and well-made post on it back there.

 

[footballfanatic]

1. Footballfanatic, your insults are "you're an idiot". He didn't directly insult you.

2. Lyfsaho's video is the most obvious set up I've ever seen. You deliberately sacrificed Wynaut, you played Wobbuffet like an idiot against Salamence (you know Counter, ya know), and the Sub that Tyranitar got is what let him beat Salamence. So in fact, you proved that you're wrong.

3. Fight a Wobbuffet and then talk about how easy it was to eliminate it. Or how easy it was to just work around it.

How did he not directly insult me?

He stated that I was so ignorant when it came to pokemon that it was as if I had never battled before. That's not insulting? Considering I think I'm at least somewhat well-informed when it comes to pokemon, and have spent tons of hours battling, it's incredibly insulting to me, it wouldn't be to you?

 

[Jediment]

If, upon analyzing my data, I discovered it was inaccurate, no. You need to calm down. You being pissed isn't helping anybody do anything.

 

[evolutia]

A set like that looks fearsome but the Manaphy user has to be weary that it only has a set amount of time to sweep, if it does not use the correct moves or have it's counter's worn down it's not going to beat a team. If the Rain Dancer gets defeated it takes away alot of power from Manaphy. Of course it can still set up on it's own but Either it's going to be slow and bulky or fast in power, in the latter choice Manaphy will lose it's role as a bulky water and won't be able to take his. The bulky Manaphy's speed may hinder it from sweeping.

I should have said a limited amount of time to take advantage of Rain Dance's effects

Also regarding the Tail Glow Sweeper, what makes that Manaphy without Rain Dance support more fearsome than any sweeper(physical or special) seen thus far in the in the DP Meta.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Haha too bad Wobbuffett doesn't learn Safeguard to prevent the next thing switching in from being burned

 

[IggyBot]

You switch to Infernape, and while I switch out you Nasty Plot? Be my guest while I switch Starmie in.

I said Infernape destroys the rest of your team, so you obviously don't have Starmie left. But you completely missed the point of that post anyways.

To dumb it down for you, don't play what if games, just look at the facts. The fact is, Wobbuffet can give many pokemon a free set up much more easily than they can get it on their own, because there is no guesswork involved on what attack you're switching in to.

Haha too bad Wobbuffett doesn't learn Safeguard to prevent the next thing switching in from being burned

Yeah, that really sucks. Oh wait......

 

[Bologo]

How did he not directly insult me?

He stated that I was so ignorant when it came to pokemon that it was as if I had never battled before. That's not insulting? Considering I think I'm at least somewhat well-informed when it comes to pokemon, and have spent tons of hours battling, it's incredibly insulting to me, it wouldn't be to you?

Umm, can you please stop ruining threads? You already killed the Darkrai thread, don't kill this one too. If you want respect you've gotta give it, same goes to whoever was insulting you.


Anyways, I personally think Wobbuffet should at least be given a try. Remember, Wobba requires incredible prediction to use well, unless you've switched it in on a Choice pokemon. Especially if it's facing something like MixApe. Encore is a dangerous move for both sides, because if you predict wrong, you may end up Encoring a lethal move that will get you destroyed.

Another thing that will screw Wobbuffet over is a sleeping move. It can't exactly Encore that, because it'll be sleeping. Then, if you don't have a Cleric, Wobbuffet is in a lot of trouble. Sleep moves are VERY common in today's metagame, and Wobbuffet will have to Safeguard prior to the sleeping move so heh you never know. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Raikou]

Umm, can you please stop ruining threads? You already killed the Darkrai thread, don't kill this one too. If you want respect you've gotta give it, same goes to whoever was insulting you.


Anyways, I personally think Wobbuffet should at least be given a try. Remember, Wobba requires incredible prediction to use well, unless you've switched it in on a Choice pokemon. Especially if it's facing something like MixApe. Encore is a dangerous move for both sides, because if you predict wrong, you may end up Encoring a lethal move that will get you destroyed.

Another thing that will screw Wobbuffet over is a sleeping move. It can't exactly Encore that, because it'll be sleeping. Then, if you don't have a Cleric, Wobbuffet is in a lot of trouble. Sleep moves are VERY common in today's metagame, and Wobbuffet will have to Safeguard prior to the sleeping move so heh you never know. That's just my opinion though.

How much prediction skill does it take to switch him into a physical attacker and hit counter? Or switch him into a special attacker and hit mirror coat? Or switch him into Blissey or some other wall, hit encore, and watch as Garchomp/Azelf/whatever gets a free setup to start sweeping your opponent's team, which you can repeat every single time the Pokemon you set up on shows up? It's mind numbingly boring and takes very little skill actually, just keep it away from taunters or sleep inducers and send it in at will against almost everything else.

 

[footballfanatic]

Umm, can you please stop ruining threads? You already killed the Darkrai thread, don't kill this one too. If you want respect you've gotta give it, same goes to whoever was insulting you.


Anyways, I personally think Wobbuffet should at least be given a try. Remember, Wobba requires incredible prediction to use well, unless you've switched it in on a Choice pokemon. Especially if it's facing something like MixApe. Encore is a dangerous move for both sides, because if you predict wrong, you may end up Encoring a lethal move that will get you destroyed.

Another thing that will screw Wobbuffet over is a sleeping move. It can't exactly Encore that, because it'll be sleeping. Then, if you don't have a Cleric, Wobbuffet is in a lot of trouble. Sleep moves are VERY common in today's metagame, and Wobbuffet will have to Safeguard prior to the sleeping move so heh you never know. That's just my opinion though.

You've got to be kidding. I was debating the Wobbuffet issue just like everyone else and someone out of nowhere insults my intelligence, and now I'M ruining the thread?

Come on now.

Back to the topic, I completely agree with you. I think it deserves to be tested just like every other borderline Uber. People are writing it off instantly because it has this stigma of being incredibly broken(mostly based off misinformation about Shadow Tag...I know before that video, I thought Shadow Tag trapped the poke forever).