The De-Uberization.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Personally I'm for Manaphy, Mew, and Latias, and Deoxys-S being considered for demotion.

Tyranitar is already in the Top 5 OU list and has the natural ability to fuck
up manaphy's day. As does abamasnow while resisting surf, grassknot, and only taking neutral damage from Ice Beam while hitting back with a SE woodhammer. Basically I see it this way: With the Darkrai thread, its uber because it needs two pokes to counter it. Manaphy needs another poke to sweep. What happens if your rain dancer is bronzong and it dances then explodes, and I switch in abamasnow? Abamasnow Wood Hammer with no Attack EVs does 67-79% to the Tail Glow Sweeper, and it CAN'T rest off the damage. Meanwhile, Manaphy without Tail Glow BUT with Life Orb only does 28-33% with Ice Beam (The Abamasnow calcs are taken from the mixed attacker lead set with 160SpD EVs)When the original testing was done, Abamasnow was thought of as a joke UU poke (thank God for Obi...)

As far as Latias goes, I think any pokemon built for taking special hits but does so worse than blissey needs consideration. It would be nice to have a solid wish passer other than jirachi/vaporeon. True it can calm mind, but so can suicune, and celebi, and blissey, etc.

Also the fact that everyone wants to use Mew to BP stuff convinces me that it should be considered (although my bias might be showing. After all, he's my favorite poke) Honestly though, just because something has a massive movepool doesn't mean that people don't pick out the best ones and stick them together. That's why we have mixape. He has access to Thunderpunch, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Flareblitz, Focus Blast, Mach Punch, Swords Dance, Taunt Aerial Ace, Poison Jab, U-Turn, Fake Out and Encore, yet 90% of people use Close Combat/Flamethrower/Nasty Plot/Grass Knot because it works BEST. As big as Mew' Movepool is, one set is going to outshine the others and become the standard.

And obviously the Deoxys-S case had been made over and over again.

And thank you if you took the time to read all this.

 

[Jediment]

The problem with Mew is not even so much the baton passing, it's the stat upping. Mew could easily run Nasty Plot//Taunt//Ice Beam//Thunderbolt, making it a Jirachi that's better. Also, the only way to screw up baton passing is with Haze, Roar, or Whirlwind, and Taunt shuts down all of those. I don't think it's as much of a threat in terms of baton passing (except in the hands of a good player), but the ability to make a powerful physical OR special sweeper with a significantly larger movepool than Infernape's makes mew pretty dangerous. It also has tolerable defenses (though Jirachi has a better type).

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

That set honestly wouldn't be that big of a deal as it gets destroyed by Tyranitar in sand and Mangezone. Even after a NP Mew's Bolt/Beam only does 31-37% to 252HP/0SpD Ttar (and that's with 252SpA Modest Nature). Meanwhile, 252 Adamant Ttar's Pursuit does 87-103% to 0HP/0Def Mew back if it switches out, and that's without any boosts. (I assume if you max SpA, you're maxing Spe too). But along that line, Shadowball/Aura Sphere would definitely be better, though Scarfcross could take it as it only takes 30-37% from a 252 Modest Shadowball. And honestly, with Garchomp, Ttar, Gyarados, etc running around, who's gonna make Mew a physical sweeper? People don't even use physical attacks with salamence, and he has a 135base. Mew would just be one of those pokes that allows for more room in team development. Forgot your 266 SpA Ice Beam? Don't have to rework your whole team. Damn, I dont have a Stealth Rocker. It's ok. It really just the ultimate niche pokemon.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

This poll is stupid and needs a "leave everyone where the fuck they are" option. I don't see why everyone thinks it will be more interesting in OU if they fuck around with the Uber tier and try to re-break everything. If you're bored in OU now then I guess you never played Advanced, G/S/C or R/B/Y.

 

[Darth Meanie]

Personally, I think that only really broken pokemon should be Uber. The legendary weather generators, Mew, and Wobbuffet. The thing I think that most people discussing Wobbuffet forget though is that YOU don't switch into Wobbuffet, Wobbuffet switches into YOU. And YOU don't switch out until Wobba says you can switch out. If you know what you're doing with Wobby, he can choose any pokemon that can't take him directly on and tear a hole straight through him. Mixed sweepers, taunters, and passers can really ruin Wobbys day, but not all pokemon can do that. If they can't, Wobby can make his enemies very unhappy. I personally think that switching is the best move in the game, and when Wobby can keep you from switching, potentially tear up at least one poke, and force you to give the enemy potentially TWO free turns: (T-wave on Chomp, will-o-wisp on infernape, T-bolt on Electrivire 0_o, EQ on DDmence) and the switch-in, you are screwed. This is why Wobby should be kept uber. Most pokemon you only need to have one counter too. With Wobby EVERY pokemon you have must be a counter.

Also, when it comes to tiers, I would like there to be a tier between OU and Uber, where blisseys and Mewtwos can play. I would like uber kept to Rayquaza, Kyogre, Groudon, Other Deoxys, Darkrai, Mew, and Wobby.

 

[Lyfsaho]

This poll is stupid and needs a "leave everyone where the fuck they are" option. I don't see why everyone thinks it will be more interesting in OU if they fuck around with the Uber tier and try to re-break everything. If you're bored in OU now then I guess you never played Advanced, G/S/C or R/B/Y.

This thread needs for people like you to stop posting things like these. Instead of contributing nothing, just leave.

 

[LickThePaint]

I think that ONLY Wob should be tested... He gets OHKO'd by a lot these days and the satlemate wob/wob has been fixed :/

 

[Jiggy-Ninja]

If you're bored in OU now then I guess you never played Advanced, G/S/C or R/B/Y.

I've never competitively played those Gens, and I'm not bored with OU.

I especially like the rampant Blissey usage, since I love killing that bitch.

 

[SkarmBliss]

The only thing you can deuberize is Deoxys E, also Wobby may be eligble for deuberization, coz there is a good way to beat him

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Personally, I think that only really broken pokemon should be Uber. The legendary weather generators, Mew, and Wobbuffet. The thing I think that most people discussing Wobbuffet forget though is that YOU don't switch into Wobbuffet, Wobbuffet switches into YOU. And YOU don't switch out until Wobba says you can switch out. If you know what you're doing with Wobby, he can choose any pokemon that can't take him directly on and tear a hole straight through him. Mixed sweepers, taunters, and passers can really ruin Wobbys day, but not all pokemon can do that. If they can't, Wobby can make his enemies very unhappy. I personally think that switching is the best move in the game, and when Wobby can keep you from switching, potentially tear up at least one poke, and force you to give the enemy potentially TWO free turns: (T-wave on Chomp, will-o-wisp on infernape, T-bolt on Electrivire 0_o, EQ on DDmence) and the switch-in, you are screwed. This is why Wobby should be kept uber. Most pokemon you only need to have one counter too. With Wobby EVERY pokemon you have must be a counter.

Also, when it comes to tiers, I would like there to be a tier between OU and Uber, where blisseys and Mewtwos can play. I would like uber kept to Rayquaza, Kyogre, Groudon, Other Deoxys, Darkrai, Mew, and Wobby.

Are you seriously suggesting that Mew is more broken than Mewtwo, Ho-Oh, Lugia, Giratina, and ARCEUS?

@ Skarmbliss: um, what way is that?

 

[evolutia]

This poll is stupid and needs a "leave everyone where the fuck they are" option. I don't see why everyone thinks it will be more interesting in OU if they fuck around with the Uber tier and try to re-break everything. If you're bored in OU now then I guess you never played Advanced, G/S/C or R/B/Y.

If a pokemon can play in the OU meta without over centralizing it why should it be banned? By your own logic Garchomp should be banned because of the theorycraft surrounding it before DP. That the tier list should have been decided long before people even had to play the game.

It's people like you that ruin topics like this.

 

[Darth Meanie]

Forgot Arceus -_-. Mewtwo and Ho-oh I think are okay because you know what you are getting into. Mew is a complete mystery. Baton Pass a Nasty Plot, or is it going to use it to sweep. Maybe endure to hit you with a boosted priority move.

 

[SkarmBliss]

@ Skarmbliss: um, what way is that?

Wobby uses Encore when you stat-up(eg Dragon Dance) keep on stat-upping til its maxed out, then attack then BAM, bye, bye Wobby. To destroy a FS Wobbuffet do the same thing, then attack, (remember to give the Pokemon a FS) then attack with a Priorty move(Weavile's a great Pokemon to do this)

 

[sanjay120]

No, that's when you switch out to something that will set up in the DDer's face. Maybe a Dummer. Charizard destroys teams if it gets one turn of setup.

 

[Darth Meanie]

encore lasts after Wobby switched out, and the enemy can either nick away at you or set-up itself. A properly executed encorefett lets you switch in and get one free turn to set up. If you encore T-bolt and switch to vire, or flare blitz and switch to heatran, we can have a lots of fun with Wobby. Wobbuffet requires good prediction to get in, but as I said, with most enemies you only need one counter to beat it. With wobbuffet you need SIX counters. That is why Wobbuffet is uber.

All RMTs would say the same thing: Wobb walks all over this team.

 

[cim]

Stat's aren't everything. Deoxys-E's frail, only a bit powerful, and he has no boosting moves, which makes him fine for OU.

Manaphy is a nearly unstoppable monster in the Rain, with 100% recovery, Tail Glow, and Surf behind sturdy Defenses and good SAtk. Even without Rest it sets up and KOs Blissey with 101 Subs.

Mew is out of the question. Not only is he as powerful as Manaphy at Nasty Plot/Tail Glowing and Jirachi at Calm Minding, he can Baton Pass 2 of any stat in the game, Explode, Transform, and sweep. Sometimes 2 or 3 of those at the same time. It's absolutely ludicrous to even consider Mew.

Latios sans Soul Dew again doesn't look too bad, but think about it. He's a more powerful Specsmence with no 4x weaks. Again, he's a more powerful Specsmence with no 4x weaks. He's also faster. And can take hits better. And has a giant movepool. Any questions?

Oh, you're saying only Latias? That's even more ludicrous. She takes hits nearly as well as Blissey, has Safeguard and Recover, and on top of that 110 base SAtk and Speed, so he'd STILL be a better Specsmence.

Wobbufett is also nuts. Encores whatever. If it's an attack, you die. If it's set-up, he switches for something that just needs one boost (Gyarados is an alright example), boosting while you switch out. And the Wobba can do this over and over again, unless you attack it, in which case he just kills you instead.

 

[Syberia]

* His opinion is too traditional, wanting to keep them as Ubers because "they've always been Ubers"

* He assumes we all just want the opportunity to play with these Ubers.

The fact that he's insulting people (if he is, I haven't actually read any of his posts in this thread) is the only one of those with any validity. Just because his argument is "too traditional" and doesn't agree with yours is not reason to exclude someone from a thread.

To everyone who says Mew and the Lati@s should be OU:
No. They both have way too large of movepools. So what if you expect Mew to start Baton Passing and instead it just Swords Dances or Nasty Plots on your ass for the sweep? The only thing currently that can do both of those is Infernape, and he's balanced out by the fact that he dies in one hit. Mew does not, and on top of that is not stuck just using Flamethrower/Grass Knot/Close Combat.

Send Blissey into Latios? Watch it Dragon Dance up in your face. And that's with no x4 weakness to Ice to fall back on and Ice Shard it away once it sets up because you guessed wrong.

Gengar is already a douche because of the number of options available to it. We don't need any more of those.

And Manaphy? You all point to the fact that there's no permanent Rain Dance in OU, but I ask if it's really necessary. Personally, I'd run Substitute/Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam @Leftovers. No Rain Dance, but still destroys Blissey and most things that resist Water/Ice.

 

[Dragontamer]

Heres the thing they where never tested together.Cresse,Blissey and Deoxy LG will guarantee that no special attacker runs wild.Darkrai murders psychics types ,guess what types Mew,Latias,Deoxy.Wobby, Celebi are?We may have ban upper tier of pokemon comparable to banning t-tar, garachomp, Salamence, Metagross,etc... Think about is Latias as the top poke and making every standard team have to be counter it any different than salamence as the top poke and every standard team you make has to have counter for it.

We cannot do that. If you want to play with those pokemon, why not just play Ubers? Remember, OU is a tier in of itself. It is a very well defined tier as it is and there is no point screwing with it by adding even more broken pokemon.

Would the "new" OU be balanced? Perhaps, but by then it wouldn't be the OU metagame. These decisions have to keep in mind the preservation of the current OU metagame. We should not fuck up OU with random Ubers just because we can.

Of course, I'm willing to bring in pokemon that don't overcentralize the metagame. However, if that involves changing the metagame by adding several clearly Uber pokemon (Darkrai, Mew AND Lati@s??), I'll have to disagree with that decision.

--------

Personally I'm for Manaphy, Mew, and Latias, and Deoxys-S being considered for demotion.

Tyranitar is already in the Top 5 OU list and has the natural ability to fuck
up manaphy's day. As does abamasnow while resisting surf, grassknot, and only taking neutral damage from Ice Beam while hitting back with a SE woodhammer. Basically I see it this way: With the Darkrai thread, its uber because it needs two pokes to counter it. Manaphy needs another poke to sweep. What happens if your rain dancer is bronzong and it dances then explodes, and I switch in abamasnow? Abamasnow Wood Hammer with no Attack EVs does 67-79% to the Tail Glow Sweeper, and it CAN'T rest off the damage. Meanwhile, Manaphy without Tail Glow BUT with Life Orb only does 28-33% with Ice Beam (The Abamasnow calcs are taken from the mixed attacker lead set with 160SpD EVs)When the original testing was done, Abamasnow was thought of as a joke UU poke (thank God for Obi...)

How can T-Tar mess up Manaphy? A tail-glow Surf easily OHKOs T-Tar in Sandstream without LO, and T-Tar fails to OHKO Manaphy. Further, Manaphy outspeeds T-Tar. If dancer Manaphy is using rain-dance on the turn T-Tar comes in, T-Tar loses sandstream (Rain Dance is activated after T-Tar comes in), Manaphy gains +1 Attack on surf and even with 0 EVs has a significant chance of OHKOing T-Tar the next turn. T-Tar counters neither the sweeper nor the Dancer.

As for Abomasnow... I don't have a full opinion. However, Acid Armor on the switch-in turns that into a 3-hit KO, giving plenty of time for Acid Armor -> Rain Dance -> Rest. This is a major issue with species clause in effect, because it takes 2 turns to set up hail again (switch-out Abomasnow, then switch him back in) I do admit that Abomasnow counters the typical Manaphy. However, if Abomasnow becomes a big problem, Manaphy can go for Surf / Blizzard / Grass Knot combo instead of Ice Beam. With that, Manaphy has a good chance of 2-hit KOing Abomasnow with Life Orb, which translates to a possible OHKO with Tail Glow, guarenteed with any form of spikes. (and with 100% accurate hail from Abomasnow, it is a perfect counter if it gets too bad). Manaphy outspeeds Abomasnow, meaning that Manaphy can kill Abomasnow before it can even land a Wood Hammer if Manaphy has Blizzard (even with those 160 Sp. Def EVs)

Also the fact that everyone wants to use Mew to BP stuff convinces me that it should be considered (although my bias might be showing. After all, he's my favorite poke) Honestly though, just because something has a massive movepool doesn't mean that people don't pick out the best ones and stick them together. That's why we have mixape. He has access to Thunderpunch, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Flareblitz, Focus Blast, Mach Punch, Swords Dance, Taunt Aerial Ace, Poison Jab, U-Turn, Fake Out and Encore, yet 90% of people use Close Combat/Flamethrower/Nasty Plot/Grass Knot because it works BEST. As big as Mew' Movepool is, one set is going to outshine the others and become the standard.

Focus Blast has poor accuracy, Mach Punch has poor attack, and Fake-Out is even worse and is not effective on a sweeper (Ambipom pulls off the U-Turn Fake-Out deal a lot better). Aerial Ace is weaker than Close Combat, even when AA is super-effective. Poison Jab offers no type coverage except for grass, and Flamethrower / Blitz deals with that easily. Hell, Flame Wheel is stronger than Poison Jab after STAB. That leaves Encore which Infernape doesn't have the defenses, nor any immunities to do well (At least Jumpluff can encore Garchomp's earthquake)

Really, those attacks aren't used because typically, they suck. T-Punch, Stone Edge, Earthquake and Flareblitz is a good choice set, but it is overpowered by other choice pokemon. (IMO, Choice Infernape should be used more often...)

Now we look at mew, it gets perfect coverage of Ghost / Fighting, it can be a wall with Barrier / Amnesia / recover, it can be anything and do it well, arguably better than most OU pokemon as it is. BP mew is an Uber-style play, but in OU 100 Atk / Sp. Attack is more than enough to sweep (*cough* SpecsMence). Add in any boost to any stat and you've got a major problem. Its almost a Smeargle with the right stats.

BP just makes it even worse. The opponent switches to a counter? No problem, mew can BP the hell out of there after the counter switches in (if prediction is used, you BP on the turn the counter comes in), now you got the counter's counter out with a +2 boost to any stat you want.

And Manaphy? You all point to the fact that there's no permanent Rain Dance in OU, but I ask if it's really necessary. Personally, I'd run Substitute/Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam @Leftovers. No Rain Dance, but still destroys Blissey and most things that resist Water/Ice.

The standard when Manaphy was OU was Tail Glow / Surf / Ice Beam / Grass Knot or Energy Ball. Meaning nothing resists (Vaporeon / Lapras would give you a problem without a grass attack), Manaphy still destroys non-CM Blissey with Tail Glow, and with a Rain Dance Bronzong or a Cleric it can heal back from T-Wave later.

 

[trader]

you didnt put an option for just voting for Mew to be moved down now im sad :(

 

[Spaniard]

LOL, does anyone know Wobbuffet?

Shadow Tag de-activates once he leaves play.

Lol, I'm sure you don't have the slightest clue how evil wobbuffet is. We all know it de-activates. But he can trap you whenever he wants and ko you to hell and back.

What can you do? Nothing, you're trapped, he is gonna hit twice as hard as you do, add wish-pass here and he can ko as many pokes as he wants. You don't attack him to stay safe? Ok get encored and I switch to wichever counter I want freely (and the following abuse). Not to mention a dugtrio switch in that will ko without being scratched. And yeah, what if you have to play wobbuffet vs wobbuffet?

Wanna test it with me? I'll use wobbuffet against you

 

[Lyfsaho]

you didnt put an option for just voting for Mew to be moved down now im sad :(

Yes I did. look, it says Mew AND / OR Manaphy. Thats the same.

Lol, I'm sure you don't have the slightest clue how evil wobbuffet is. We all know it de-activates. But he can trap you whenever he wants and ko you to hell and back.

What can you do? Nothing, you're trapped, he is gonna hit twice as hard as you do, add wish-pass here and he can ko as many pokes as he wants. You don't attack him to stay safe? Ok get encored and I switch to wichever counter I want freely (and the following abuse). Not to mention a dugtrio switch in that will ko without being scratched. And yeah, what if you have to play wobbuffet vs wobbuffet?

Wanna test it with me? I'll use wobbuffet against you

Instead of reading random comments and posting against them, I suggest you read the context around them first.

I was pointing something out which a few people didn't understand at the beginning, nothing more besides that.

He can trap you whenever he wants? seriously. To do this, you have to sacrifice a pokemon. Or tell me how you want to trap CBchomp - by switching in, and then encoring / countering? Wobby'll be dead by then.

It seems to me that you should actually use it a bit in the modern game before making assumptions. Shadow Tag nullifies itself, and Dugtrio deals with Wobbuffet splendidly.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

@ Dragontamer: Jesus Christ, how much theorymoning can we do? Acid Armor? That set counters itself! Rain Dance/Rest/Acid Armor/what? Toxic? Surf to get walled by water absorbers? And Infernape could get perfect coverage too with Shadow Claw if it wanted for four more base Atk and ten less BP, so the coverage issue isn't that big a deal. Garchomp is a better Swords Dancer than Mew, Togekiss is a better Nasty Plotter, Ninjask is better at passing Speed, and everyone posting these sweeper sets seems to forget that there's no STAB on them! Everyone expects it to sweep with 95BP moves with no STAB. Even After a Nasty Plot, Mew's Thunderbolt/Ice Beam does 31-37% without Life Orb to 252HP/0Ttar as stated earlier (I'm not including it since everyone is praising its bulkiness and that detracts from it).

If it's running Shadowball/Aura Sphere Garchomp takes 57-67% from Aura Sphere after a Nasty Plot. Admittedly, that is a lot, but remember, Garchomp's a SWEEPER. Infernape OHKOs the same Chomp 98% of the time after a Swords Dance Close Combat. What about actual walls though? I'm not saying it wouldn't be a force, but with people foregoing STAB for these neutral coverage combos these sets lack efficiency. All those sets are doing is making Gyarados/Garchomp or Blissey/Cresselia counters, which is fine but don't call that uber. Also,Deoxys-S shuts down the Baton Pass Set too with Taunt. I'm simply saying that they deserve to be tested. And at anyone saying that Latias definitely shouldn't be allowed because it takes hits ALMOST as well as Blissey, why do we allow blissey at all?

Oh, and to the guy screaming about running the set with Sub/Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam, how's that any more dangerous than Sub/Swords Dance/Dragon Claw/Earthquake Garchomp?

 

[Darth Meanie]

I said it before and I'll say it again. SOME pokemon can counter Wobbuffet, but not all. You have ONE pokemon that cannot counter him, and Wobby can exploit it. With other pokemon you need to have ONE counter to a pokemon. With Wobbuffet ALL of your pokemon need to counter Wobby. Encore set up or counterattacks can really put an unhappy dent into your enemies.

 

[Lyfsaho]

I said it before and I'll say it again. SOME pokemon can counter Wobbuffet, but not all. You have ONE pokemon that cannot counter him, and Wobby can exploit it. With other pokemon you need to have ONE counter to a pokemon. With Wobbuffet ALL of your pokemon need to counter Wobby. Encore set up or counterattacks can really put an unhappy dent into your enemies.

How in the hell? He can exploit in once, meaning, say, I bring a starmie, he switches in taking the Surf, starmie recovers, he encores it, switches in a sweeper and gets one turn to set up. Second time, this a) will be made much harder by the fact that Wobbuffet has lost life and b) will be much less useable, since your opponent will expect a Wobby switch-in into Starmie every time and can predict accordingly.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

How in the hell? He can exploit in once, meaning, say, I bring a starmie, he switches in taking the Surf, starmie recovers, he encores it, switches in a sweeper and gets one turn to set up. Second time, this a) will be made much harder by the fact that Wobbuffet has lost life and b) will be much less useable, since your opponent will expect a Wobby switch-in into Starmie every time and can predict accordingly.

Except there won't be a next time because Bellyzard just tore through your team with two free turns to get in and set up on. Shadow Tag is unholy.