(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

[QuentinQuonce]

Zeraora being electric/fighting is the same as people arguing about electric/dark luxray: there's about 1 to 2 design choices that could argue about it, which is very little to go by, but everyone talks as it is obvious

Zeraora is bipedal and has big hands. That's about it. Plasma fists is barely a fist move either.

Luxray has dark fur and a mean face. That's also about it

Aside from the arguments Pumpkin made about the moves it learns (which, yes, it's not the first Pokemon to lean into another type's flavour without being of that type, but still) for me personally the thing with Zeraora isn't so much that it feels like it should be, but that the fact that it isn't is such a missed opportunity.

Speedy frail Electric Pokemon are not a new thing, but there are very few speedy frail Fighters, and Electric/Fighting hasn't been done before. There are very few Fighting legendaries, and while maybe they thought that two Fighting mythicals would be too much for Gen VII it still strikes me as a waste that they didn't give it a second type. Zeraora is perfectly fine as a sole Electric mon, but it would be buckets more interesting if it were part-Fighting.

Luxray I don't personally have much of a stake in, but I will say I find it odd that apparently so many people think that a Pokemon specifically called out as being brave and heroic should be Dark.

 

[Arkm]

Alolan Sandslash not being ice/ground.

If we are talking about zeraora being electric/fighting, Electivire deserves secondary fighting type more.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Luxray I don't personally have much of a stake in, but I will say I find it odd that apparently so many people think that a Pokemon specifically called out as being brave and heroic should be Dark.

Luxray does try to murder the fuck out of you in PMD2, so there's that. Admittedly, a bunch of mons try to murder the fuck out of you, so it's not really special in that regard, but between its sometimes aggressive portrayal, edgy black color scheme, and enhanced night vision (which would be useful for a nocturnal predator), I can see where people see Dark-type flavor in it. I don't much care one way or the other. Luxray needs more than just Dark typing to save it.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

If we are talking about zeraora being electric/fighting, Electivire deserves secondary fighting type more.

No.

Electivire (or more accurately, the Electabuzz family since Gen 2) learns some odd Fighting-type moves, but the same is also true for its counterpart the Magmar family, and nobody ever says Magmortar should be part Fighting. Electavire also doesn't look really look like a Fighting-type. It's just big.

Stop adding fighting type to anything with the ability to throw a punch

 

[Worldie]

Luxray needs more than just Dark typing to save it.

Tbh it's not really a case of "give it dark type to buff it", it's just a case of "why isnt this dark type".

As you figured, it's mainly due to its design and the darker, aggressive theme of its look (it even has Intimidate after all).

I doubt being Electric/Dark would have changed anything as far as competitive viability goes, it would have made it stand out a bit from the plethora of mono electric types but that's really about it. It doesn't even get Knock Off so it's not like he'd gain anything other than some affinity shifts and stab on Crunch.

 

[Arkm]

Electavire also doesn't look really look like a Fighting-type. It's just big.

Electavire(don't know what that pokemn is) doesn't look like a figting type. But Electivire surely does.

 

[R_N]

Electavire(don't know what that pokemn is) doesn't look like a figting type. But Electivire surely does.

Somehow I don't think Electivire is a "figting" type either

 

[pika pal]

Couple preceding posts

As far as annoyances with typing, something I have mixed feelings about is the frequency of Monotypes vs Dual Typings. I don't think the latter should be imposed on Pokemon, but a combination of types I feel helps to emphasize aspects of a Pokemon they want to play up, and a part of me finds Monotyping (unfairly though it may be on my part) makes a Pokemon feel more "Vanilla" in character as well as in gameplay.

 

[Eeveeto]

The Electabuzz line did look like a Fight type since the very beginning. They also learned many Fight Moves, some of them very exclusive:
-Rolling Kick (which being so exclusive should have been buffed long ago) is only learned by Electabuzz line, Machamp line, Hitmonlee and Hitmontop (also Marshadow, but that is SM already).
-Cross Chop in Gen 2 only Electabuzz, Magmar, Golduck, Primeape and Machamp lines get the Move, at the moment the strongest Fight move. In Gen 3 Hariyama gets added. Then in DPP Croagunk , Lucario and Teddiursa lines get the move too.

Of course, this kinda gets countered by the fact that Electivire didn't get CC or Superpower in a Gen many Mons got it, but still, it's still sad DPP introduced 3 pure Electrics when 8 already existed, every single of which except Jolteon and Raikou were eating dust.
Electivire being Fight type and Luxray being Dark wouldn't have saved them from being bad as Generations passed, they wouldn have needed way more than that. Still, one thing is being Stunfisk, Eelektross (pure Electric, but with Levitate) or Morpeko (who robbed Luxray) level bad and another one is sticking with the likes of Boltund, Manectric (not Mega) or Zebstrika.

 

[R_N]

Couple preceding posts

As far as annoyances with typing, something I have mixed feelings about is the frequency of Monotypes vs Dual Typings. I don't think the latter should be imposed on Pokemon, but a combination of types I feel helps to emphasize aspects of a Pokemon they want to play up, and a part of me finds Monotyping (unfairly though it may be on my part) makes a Pokemon feel more "Vanilla" in character as well as in gameplay.

my rule of thumb with monotypes is "just how much am i thinking this could have been a dual type"

Polteageist couuuuuuuuuld have been dual type i guess but i think it works fine as a mono Ghost type. Very cute, its fine. We're fine.
Pincurchin is on thin ice
Lurantis would be this but I get the concept behind it loud and clear and think it's funny

Glalie does have me think about it when I look at it, as said before. But it doesn't consume me. Much.
Samurott's focus on swordplay really feels like it should have been fighting type like Gallade and the muskeeters (& much later on, Sirfetch'd). Its enough "sea lion" that it's not a constant thought but it's enough that it's there


Meanwhile I look at Grapploct or Florges and now i'm the joker



Shoutout to Smolive for being one of the few times I go "couldn't this have been monotype?" I know the normal dual types always get people in a huff, but with those I can look at them and go, you know yeah. Yeah you're a little normal. Pretty normalesque. Kinda normalish, you know? Smolive is just a green olive. I guess its a light green olive? Is the lighter color meant to indicate normalcy? Will it become more normal as it evolves? Many mysteries.

 

[Arkm]

Somehow I don't think Electivire is a "figting" type either

So these looks like fighting types

but this not

 

[Arkm]

Also Incineroar looks more of a fighting type than any Blaziken, Infernape or Emboar.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Okay, so I think it's important to point out that there are cultural connotations to the Fighting and Dark types in Japan that don't necessarily translate over well to other countries. The Fighting type represents more than just being physically strong or good at fighting through any means necessary, it also represents a sense of honor that is held in high regard in Japanese martial traditions. This ties into the warrior code of bushidō, most versions of which put a heavy emphasis on honorable conduct. As such, straightforward, face-to-face combat is glorified in many ways in Japanese culture; the Fighting type represents this, as most Fighting types are depicted as stoic and honorable.

On the flip side of this is the Dark type. It's pretty well-known that in Japanese, the Dark type's name actually translates to Evil type, and this is no accident. The Dark type generally represents the opposite of the Fighting type; dishonorable, deceptive, and unfair tactics. Dark-types are usually depicted as cunning, aggressive, and deceitful, as are most Dark-type moves. It wasn't until Gen 4 that we would get a Dark-type move that actually involves the concept of darkness as in a lack of light in Dark Pulse, and even then Dark Pulse is described as negative energy.

Incineroar is a heel fighter. In short, he's the bad guy wrestler who often uses dishonorable and unfair tactics. This is why he's a Dark-type; it makes perfect sense when you consider the cultural connotations behind the two typings. Many of the other Pokemon you posted, especially the Swords of Justice, represent the honorable side of the Fighting-type. Electivire is usually depicted pretty neutrally in this respect, neither as a particularly honorable battler nor a particularly deceptive one, so it having neither typing also makes sense.

 

[KalosianPorygon]

So these looks like a fighting type
View attachment 456066View attachment 456067

How dare you slander the Swords of Justice!?

 

[Arkm]

Okay, so I think it's important to point out that there are cultural connotations to the Fighting and Dark types in Japan that don't necessarily translate over well to other countries. The Fighting type represents more than just being physically strong or good at fighting through any means necessary, it also represents a sense of honor that is held in high regard in Japanese martial traditions. This ties into the warrior code of bushidō, most versions of which put a heavy emphasis on honorable conduct. As such, straightforward, face-to-face combat is glorified in many ways in Japanese culture; the Fighting type represents this, as most Fighting types are depicted as stoic and honorable.

On the flip side of this is the Dark type. It's pretty well-known that in Japanese, the Dark type's name actually translates to Evil type, and this is no accident. The Dark type generally represents the opposite of the Fighting type; dishonorable, deceptive, and unfair tactics. Dark-types are usually depicted as cunning, aggressive, and deceitful, as are most Dark-type moves. It wasn't until Gen 4 that we would get a Dark-type move that actually involves the concept of darkness as in a lack of light in Dark Pulse, and even then Dark Pulse is described as negative energy.

Incineroar is a heel fighter. In short, he's the bad guy wrestler who often uses dishonorable and unfair tactics. This is why he's a Dark-type; it makes perfect sense when you consider the cultural connotations behind the two typings. Many of the other Pokemon you posted, especially the Swords of Justice, represent the honorable side of the Fighting-type. Electivire is usually depicted pretty neutrally in this respect, neither as a particularly honorable battler nor a particularly deceptive one, so it having neither typing also makes sense.

how does that makes a beetle or a fire pig or brawling crab or a venomous frog fighting(honourable) type?

Also what's so stoic and honorable about primeape(an angry monkey)

 

[Nitro Indigo]

Luxray does try to murder the fuck out of you in PMD2

Eh, everyone forgot about Time and Darkness the instant Sky came out, and he's replaced by a Manectric there.

 

[spookysocialist]

Here's my thing about Luxray.
Does anything in it's design really suggest dark type? Not really.
But does anything in it's design suggest electric type? Nope
literally the only thing I can tell is it's hair is all standing up like it bathes in hair gel, which I guess means it's covered in static. but I'd say I'd sooner see it as pure dark than pure electric

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

how does that makes a beetle or a fire pig or brawling crab or a venomous frog fighting(honourable) type?

Also what's so stoic and honorable about primeape(an angry monkey)

Well there's 3 interpretations of Fighting type.
1. Honor
2. Martial arts and related physical activity (Machamp, Passimian)
3. Likes to fight, mostly brawling-based (Scraggy, Crabominable, Primeape)

However, punch =/= Fighting. Many martial arts use punches though, and brawling is very punch-based, so a lot of Fighting types do end up punch-based.

You do make a good point about Toxicroak though.

 

[Esserise]

9 times out of 10, I never really have an issue with the typing that Game Freak chooses to assign to a Pokémon, even if another combination might have potentially been more interesting. That’s where cases like Luxray and Zeraora land for me.

The times when I do question things is more when we’re explicitly told something about the Pokémon, especially its biology or behavior, that would seem like a really strong justification for a specific type.

So like, I’m fine with taking real squids or octopuses as inspiration and then making it into something that isn’t a Water type (Malamar, Grapploct), because I don’t feel like a Pokémon simply being based on a marine creature should dictate its type — I think it can be more fun or surprising when they throw little curve balls with that stuff.

But if the Pokémon’s own in-universe lore is like “it has developed psychic powers” (Golduck), “its body has fused with the flower it carried” (Florges), or “its body is a rock covered in thick ice” (Glalie), that’s when I start to wonder what the design logic was. Although, I think we do know from various bits of development info that the people who design the Pokémon initially don’t always have full creative control over their gameplay properties (Frillish having the Ghost type applied to it after the fact which disappointed its creator, James Turner admitting to not having any say in choosing Naganadel’s moves or stats, etc.) I doubt that accounts for every oddball case, but I’m sure it’s a factor in at least some of them.

 

[Arkm]

Well there's 3 interpretations of Fighting type.
1. Honor
2. Martial arts and related physical activity (Machamp, Passimian, Emboar)
3. Likes to fight, mostly brawling-based (Scraggy, Crabominable, Primeape)
However, punch =/= Fighting

Electivire fights the third criteria. It's pokedex entries is filled with it fighting

Pearl
Diamond	It pushes the tips of its two tails against the foe, then lets loose with over 20,000 volts of power.
Platinum	Heedless of enemy attacks, it closes in, shoves its tails onto the foe, then looses high voltage.

White
White 2	Heedless of enemy attacks, it closes in, shoves its tails onto the foe, then looses high voltage.
Black
Black 2	The instant it presses the tips of its tails onto an opponent, it sends over 20,000 volts of electricity into the foe.

Alpha Sapphire	It pushes the tips of its two tails against the foe, then lets loose with over 20,000 volts of power.

Sun	It pushes the tips of its tails against its foes and then lets loose a high-voltage current. Its foes are burned to a crisp in an instant.

If that isn't enough to make Electivire fighting type then Heracross and Toxicroak aren't fighting type either.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Electivire fights the third criteria. It's pokedex entries is filled with it fighting

Pearl
Diamond	It pushes the tips of its two tails against the foe, then lets loose with over 20,000 volts of power.
Platinum	Heedless of enemy attacks, it closes in, shoves its tails onto the foe, then looses high voltage.

White 2	Heedless of enemy attacks, it closes in, shoves its tails onto the foe, then looses high voltage.
White
Black
Black 2	The instant it presses the tips of its tails onto an opponent, it sends over 20,000 volts of electricity into the foe.

Alpha Sapphire	It pushes the tips of its two tails against the foe, then lets loose with over 20,000 volts of power.

Sun	It pushes the tips of its tails against its foes and then lets loose a high-voltage current. Its foes are burned to a crisp in an instant.

If that isn't enough to make Electivire fighting type then Heracross and Toxicroak aren't fighting type either.

That's just pretty basic "this Pokemon can do a thing and it's [insert bullshit units] amounts impressive". Most Pokemon have entries like that.

 

[Arkm]

That's just pretty basic "this Pokemon can do a thing and it's [insert bullshit units] amounts impressive". Most Pokemon have entries like that.

So are toxicroak, primape, heracross and many other fighting types entries.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Dragging this back to Zeraora for a minute, what specifically marks it out as a would-be Fighting type is the specific flavour of the moves it learns. Sure Zeraora learns lots of Fighting moves and that's not hugely notable in of itself, but the nature of the moves it gets is significant. Like there was some discussion ages back about how Zeraora is one of a handful of Pokemon that gets Helping Hand despite not having an obvious thematic link, and the best explanation I could contribute was "well, it has that Fighting vibe", since lots of Fighting species get HH. It also gets Coaching from the IoA tutors and Bulk Up by TR in addition to learning a truly massive amount of Fighting moves.

If it just learned, say, Close Combat and no other Fighting move, then that wouldn't stand out so much. Lots of Pokemon learn one or two notable moves of a different type - I've always found it interesting that Xerneas gets Outrage, for instance. But Zeraora gets Close Combat and Aura Sphere and Revenge and Focus Blast and Reversal and Low Kick and Low Sweep and Drain Punch and Power-Up Punch and Quick Guard. It's a massive overspecialisation considering that it's a type it doesn't have. It also has a strong thematic emphasis on its physical prowess - slashing, ripping, punching, kicking - which emphasises that link all the more. I find it hard to believe that no-one in development at least considered the idea of making Zeraora part Fighting.

 

[Arkm]

But Zeraora gets Close Combat and Aura Sphere and Revenge and Focus Blast and Reversal and Low Kick and Low Sweep and Drain Punch and Power-Up Punch and Quick Guard.

Electivire has it beat in that department since it learns 16 fighting moves meanwhile Zeraora learns 15.

Brick Break, Counter, Cross Chop, Detect, Focus Blast, Focus Punch, Hammer Arm, Low Kick, Power-up Punch, Seismic Toss, Dynamic Punch, Karate chop, low sweep, rock smash, rolling kick, submission.

Quite a lot of fighting moves for a non-fighting type.

For comparison, it learns 18 electric type moves.

It seems someone in the dev team thought it was a part fighting type.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Electivire has it beat in that department since it learns 16 fighting moves meanwhile Zeraora learns 15.

Brick Break, Counter, Cross Chop, Detect, Focus Blast, Focus Punch, Hammer Arm, Low Kick, Power-up Punch, Seismic Toss, Dynamic Punch, Karate chop, low sweep, rock smash, rolling kick, submission.

Quite a lot of fighting moves for a non-fighting type.

For comparison, it learns 18 electric type moves.

It seems someone in the dev team thought it was a part fighting type.

As I said, the specific flavour of the moves it learns - Quick Guard and Helping Hand and Coaching - speaks more loudly than the amount of moves. Lots of Pokemon get Brick Break, but not Quick Guard.