Hopefully the actual Charge move get this buff.
I always thought it was a waste to use it because neither the Sp. Def nor the extra damage moved the needle if I had to use it immediately.
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Pokemon Scarlet & Violet - 18th Nov 2022! **OFFICIAL INFO ONLY**
- Thread starter DHR-107
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I always thought it was a waste to use it because neither the Sp. Def nor the extra damage moved the needle if I had to use it immediately.
wait I thought that was how Charge had always worked
what the fuck it's seriously always lasted a single turn?
Yep.
Edit: I thought it was 50% for some reason. Double power is still way worse than attacking twice because you either get no boost if you don't use an Electric attack right after using Charge or the opponent knows you'll attack with an Electric attack and send in someone that resists, like a Ground type. If you really want to boost, Work Up 50% then two attacks deals as much as 3 attacks would and you still have the buff after that. It's even harder to justify if the Pokemon can also learn Calm Mind. No one in their right mind would use Charge over Calm Mind! (Source: The only guy I know who did that, me, is not in their right mind. :P)
Also, it didn't give the SpD boost when Charge was introduced in Gen 3. It didn't get that much needed but still lame buff until Gen 4. It was worse than useless for the Gen 3 AI because knowing Charge made the AI spam it every turn instead of doing something.
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It's a 100% boost, technically, isn't it? It doubles the power.
Which is...still less effective than just using the same move twice. It basically exists in a very specific design space of "try to read an opponent and then get the ko next time" but the scenarios you'd want to do that are so slim they may as well not exist.
It really needs to be a x2.5 boost or at least keep the boost until yo uuse an electric move or switch out. It'd still be niche, but "chambering" a x2 electric move for a rainy day is at least a niche I can see someone using.
The Special Defense boost was nice to have on hand in-game, at least.
Does make me wonder if frog can stack Charge and Ability. Probably not, but would be hilarious if it could (even if still suboptimal)
Yeah, definitely this one. Analytic and Stakeout weren't breaking anything with low BST. So assuming this Frog isn't randomly something with 500+ bst the best we're going to get out of it is a Specs electric death star.
If we lose out on the Terra STAB to change typing it seems like you're better off just running a different Pokémon.
The more I look into terastallizing, the more underwhelming it seems. Is there any confirmed Pokemon that would be better off terastallizing into a new type rather than its original (or one of its original)?
Mid battle it can throw a wrench into other people who forget your Toxtricity is now Dark type instead of Electric/Toxic, gaining an immunity to Psychic attacks. But you loose two STAB move pools and just have Tera Blast or Throat Chop, Payback or Snarl. But as a general rule seems like it would be better to Tera into the original type. Because what does a Dark type Toxtricity bring to the table that another Dark type wouldn't?
Suppose people will have to really look into it. I just think the enhanced STAB to same types makes the most sense, especially for single type Pokemon. Almost like a boost for under performing single type Pokemon. Things like Rapidash or Flareon would seem to benefit the most. I suppose this is a way to give some love to under utilized Pokemon that are not too versatile.
Mid battle it can throw a wrench into other people who forget your Toxtricity is now Dark type instead of Electric/Toxic, gaining an immunity to Psychic attacks. But you loose two STAB move pools and just have Tera Blast or Throat Chop, Payback or Snarl. But as a general rule seems like it would be better to Tera into the original type. Because what does a Dark type Toxtricity bring to the table that another Dark type wouldn't?
Suppose people will have to really look into it. I just think the enhanced STAB to same types makes the most sense, especially for single type Pokemon. Almost like a boost for under performing single type Pokemon. Things like Rapidash or Flareon would seem to benefit the most. I suppose this is a way to give some love to under utilized Pokemon that are not too versatile.
Toxtricity will be going normal because STAB Punk Rock Boomburst, but I get your point.
There's various reasons to Tera into a completely unrelated type. Lures(5 drag, 1 mag, where your oppt doesn't know that Salamence can go poison), pokes with really bad typings that you want to use anyway (Avalugg), mons where it fixes a specific problem(Regileki with TeraIce might actually go offensive successfully, TGhost hazard setters can spinblock for themselves), or mons where keeping them alive is more important than anything else(Weather/terrain/trick room/hazard setters, clerics, etc, all love getting just one more chance to do their thing).
Now, which of those will be good is going to take months of testing minimum. And they all have to compete with the "Press this button to make Salamence deal even more damage" option. But they exist, and we'll see at least some of them used I'm sure, if only for the surprise factor.
Overall? My guess is weather teams are the big winners. You either make your Barraskewda deal even more damage, you make Kingdra pure-dragon so you have a way of handling Rillaboom, or you make Pelipper Ground to counter opposing weather-setters. And you decide which of those 3 you need after the battle starts, unlike Z lures. Sun can get STAB Fire on Chlorophyll users. I'm actually not sure what problem it solves for sand, maybe bring back Tyraniboah but with STAB? Nevertheless, I'm sure whatever sand starts doing will be similarly disgusting to the other two.
So its hard to say given that we have yet to play around with the mechanic. However, I think it would be most beneficial as a way to cover threats that a Pokemon or team isn't traditionally built to deal with. Volcarona is a pretty clear cut example. It typically struggles with Heatran and Rock-types. However, Terrastalizing into a Ground-type will allow it to completely flip these match-ups in its favor. Another example is Hydreigon. It's biggest achilles heel is its bad Fairy-type match-up. Terrastalizing into a Steel-type will mitigate this issue.
Pretty sure competitively speaking every Pokémon ever will use Terra thing. There’s no reason to not assign a Tera type even if it isn’t used in battle. So everything will have one. Maybe if you’re weak to Tapu Lele you can give your Toxapex the Steel type. Maybe Zapdos can be ground for when it gets boots Knocked off but still has to Defog. Weavile could be mono ice to guarantee the OHKO on Corviknight. Some Pokémon will rarely use their Tera ability but all of them will occasionally find games when it can get you a free turn out of nowhere, or where it can give you a sweep / kill you don’t deserve.
I think defensive Pokémon will generally want a type change while offensive ones will just focus on the double STAB. But sometimes Toxapex will want double Scald and no ground / psychic weakness or Volcarona will become poison to really destroy that Toxic Chansey.
tl;dr everything will use its Tera form from time to time because this mechanic is fucking broken.
It depends.
Pokemon with good dual typings will use it in more niche scenarios of match-ups. Like Grass Heatran, which can decide to stay Fire/Steel the entire match or Terastallize when facing a Rain team or heavy Ground spam, or Fairy Slowbro when your opponent has a Specs Hydreigon when you don’t have a Dark resist *cough* *cough* .
Pokemon with bad typing will use it a lot because a lot of times their bad typing is what holds them back.
Pokemon who are Mono typing already have little to no drawbacks Terastallizing, like Water Barraskewda or Fire type Clefable.
Additionally, Pokemon with immunity abilities benefit a lot from this mechanic since they can get all the benefits of the type while also removing one weakness. Things like Ground Volcanion or Flying Zeraora.
Lastly would be Pokemon who use it for Tera Blast, the Hidden Power replacement, if they are missing some coverage or if their movepool is that bad. Like Ground Volcarona or Klingklang in lower tiers.
It’s simple and not overbearing, while also having a wide arrange of usecases. Kind of the opposite of Dynamax.
Until we actually get the mechanic and start playing with it I am going to continue to maintain that unless it can outright win the game then defensive Terastal won't generally be the call to make, especially since changing a 'mon's typing will completely change what it handles defensively and that can not be overstated enough. Sure you can, for example, change your Toxapex into a Steel-type to give your team a way to handle Tapu Lele... but what do you do if you change the only thing on your team that does well vs something like Volcarona that now actually threatens Pex? Or deal with the fact that now Magnezone can trap and KO it?
Terastal being a once-per-battle thing means that it isn't a good substitute for planning against certain common threats that your team would otherwise be weak against.
Terastal being a once-per-battle thing means that it isn't a good substitute for planning against certain common threats that your team would otherwise be weak against.
Terastallize based on team preview.
If your opponent has Tapu Lele, Terastallize.
If your opponent has Volcarona, don’t Terastallize.
If your opponent has both, maybe build a better team or Terastallize something else to check either Pokemon.
I think your analogy just proves its usefulness, as Toxapex had no chance to check Tapu Lele, and if your opponent is running Tapu Lele and Volcarona, your Toxapex still has to deal with Volcarona.
Meanwhile, most (Purely) offensive uses of Terastallization don’t significantly change a Pokemon’s match-ups besides Tera Blast.
Like for example, let’s pretend Electric or Fire are bad defensive typings, and you Terastallize Victini.
With Fire, your V-creates are a lot more powerful, but most of your checks are still going to check you because your Fire typing doesn’t change what it is Super Effective against.
With Electric, your Bolt Strike is stronger, but it’s not like Water types aren’t already beaten by Bolt Strike anyways.
That isn’t to say using it offensively is bad by any means, or that defensively Terastallizing makes you unkillable. It’s more that you can expand each defensive Pokemon’s good match-ups, while offensive Pokemon aren’t going to change most of their match-ups without Tera Blast. Like Volcarona can use Ground (which is useful defensively) and Tera Blast to beat Toxapex and Heatran, but that doesn’t mean much if Volcarona learns Earthpower naturally in SV.
We're on smogon, in the EULA there's written that we need to trashtalk everything GameFreaks makes without even playing the games
I really don't like GF and the newer gens but it has been proven over and over again how little theorymoning does before release. We don't even know the in-and-outs of the mechanicWe're on smogon, in the EULA there's written that we need to trashtalk everything GameFreaks makes without even playing the games
It reminds me of people wanting nerfs on fighting game characters before the game even releases. It just does nothing and leads to nothing
Speculation is fun, but yeah I think people need to keep in mind that it's really only that. We can work with the information made available to us, but we can only do so much without A. the hard numbers and exact workings of Terastalizing and B. practical applications of it. It's why the frequent conversations about offensive vs defensive Terastalizing strike me as a bit futile - we just don't have enough context for how this game and its meta will shake out to really make judgments on that.
With that said, Poison-Tera Cresselia haunts my nightmares
With that said, Poison-Tera Cresselia haunts my nightmares
Ironic.
My nightmare is Fighting-Tera Blacephalon. Nothing is safe from Specs Shadow Ball/Overheat/Tera Blast/Trick.
Is it really, remember that by swapping to Fighting, it now lost stab on SB/OH (on top of Tera Blast looking like a pathetically weak move so far).
Incidentally, one of the reasons for which I do agree that offensive Teralyze will likely be almost exclusively used for SuperStab. Bar specific outliers (like Volcarona), losing your main stabs usually does more harm than good since a lot of 1-2hko turn into 2-3kos.
Theorymonning is dumb and I think it's important to realize that there's like a solid 90% chance that every single one of your meta predictions will be completely wrong at some point over the course of the generation, but this is a competitive site populated by players of... various skill levels, so it's going to happen. There's no way to avoid it.
I think the key is going to be getting to choose during the battle. Picture a team with 2 offensive ghosts. 1 has Ghost-Tera, the other Fighting with TBlast*. If the oppt doesn't have any good dark/normal switchins, you can go TGhost and just overwhelm any neutral walls. If they do, bring out your TFight option, Tera after they switch in, and hit them with a STAB SE move. Then even if you get revenged, your other Ghost is free to sweep.
There's ways around that, to be clear, but I'm thinking there will be a lot of chaos in the early meta as people are trying things out. I doubt it will be broken, certainly it's no Dynamax, but people are going to stress while trying to handle some of the options.
*assuming TBlast is 100ish BP.
The speculation and theorymoning, even at this stage where we don't know a ton, is fun though. Plus it helps give you ideas for where you want to start when teambuilding once the games launch. Like with me wanting to start with a team of Sylveon/Arcanine/Noivern and have the filler be stuff like a physical ground and/or steel type and something that would be a great alternative to Fairy-Tera Pixilate Hyper Voice Sylveon (which likely would be the aformentioned Ground and/or Steel.)
On the note of Cresselia, I wonder how they are going to deal with the moves ibtroduced in PLA
Cause you know what is scarrier than a Poison Cresselia? A Poison Cresselia with Recover + Double Team in one move slot
Current speculation is that most PLA moves aren't going to be available in other games, with the occasional signature move or similar being brought in, but rebalanced. Basically what happened for PLA with regular moves, but in reverse. Because yes, there's plenty of moves from that game that just don't work in the main battle system, but others are pretty much clones of existing moves.