• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

What is uber?

Calm Mind
Taunt/Recover
Shadow Ball /Thunder
Aura Sphere / Ice Beam

is basically near perfect for any team, even UBERS, damn near unstoppable as well.
 
DBZ_Trunks1000 said:
Palkia - Make it hold Life Orb or Leftovers, and he is fine by me in OU

Dialga- Same as Palikia

Darkrai- Fine in OU

Deoxys-D- Fine in OU

Wobbuffet- Fine in OU
Lugia- Fine in OU
Click to expand...
Your joking right? palkia is a monster in ubers and has no real counters there, what makes you think it would be ok in OU? Same as dialga unless we do that theory that Obi has with letting more than one uber in at a time because Deoxys D can counter the mix version, blissey does well against the specs version, and the bulk up set is counter by hippowdown and skarm minus the ones with a fire move. Darkrai i'm not sure about but probably uber. In the first uber wifi tournament i remember reading how Zerowing successfully used wobbufet and thats when i believed he was uber, but regardless of that i think he is uber because there is no counter for him. Lugia is like the evolved form of suicune, people would be forced to change their teams to have some way of taking down lugia, even in ubers he is a pest to take out. Deoxys D seems like he might need testing.
 
My reasoning was that Kyogre has more numerous counters in enemy Water types like Ludicolo, Lapras, Kindra, Palkia, Dialga, Quagsire, enemy Kyogre, and if it's locked into Thunder, you can Dugtrio it. Groudon doesn't have similar Pokemon, although I guess Grass types have better offensive choices against Groudon than some of the others. I'm OK with a few minor adjustments to the list I gave.
 
Obi said:
How is that a fallacy? I guess I'll have to explain what I'm proposing once again.

I'll begin by saying what I'm not proposing. I'm not saying "Unban everything!", as is made obvious by my list of Pokemon I wouldn't unban.

I'm not saying "Unban these Pokemon forever! They aren't broken for sure!". I thought I had made this clear, also, but some comments (not just yours) have convinced me to say this again. I'm saying those are the Pokemon I would recommend testing.

My actual method runs something like this:

1) Play
2) Find the Pokemon that is / are truly unbalancing from that list
3) Ban them.
4) Repeat step 1 with the new list of Pokemon.

I fail to see the fallacy in that reasoning.
Click to expand...
An interesting retort, but it has nothing to do with my point at all. The fallacy lies in that "balance" is a relative state and yes, perhaps by allowing multiple "low ubers" we could achieve a different sort of balance, but that's just redefining the overall OU powerlevel to be higher, because in effect, the "low ubers" that you propose to "test" will be the counters to themselves, much like the uber environment consists of primarily ubers outside of a few niche OU pokes (and shedinja).
 
I'd also like to dispell the myth that Shedinja sees much use in ubers. I have seen three so far. Two of those were only used because the people thought you could Baton Pass Swords Dance.
 
Thunder kills Lapras and 2hko's Kingdra, and neither can 1hko in return iirc. Dugtrio better pray the Kyogre user has poor prediction skills, but theoretically Dugtrio can kill almost anything if comes in on the right move. As for the uber counters, if you let in Palkia aka Specsmence on steroids with great resists and 1 weak and his uncounterable in ubers friend Dialga, we may as well let in the Latis because they're both much weaker sans soul dew than those two, are they not? Now every team must carry one or all of these and/or be made solely of counters to them, of which there are few (or in Palkia and Dialgas case, none). Go ahead and test it if you want, but that looks like ubers-lite to me, with all the lack of diversity seen in ubers.

Why not let in all at once no soul dew Latis, Manaphy, Deoxys-S and whatever else sucks in current ubers and try them out instead? Even if one or more is deemed uber after testing, they're a lot less likely to overcentralize things, especially considering the Latis already have counters in OU and wouldn't need uber ones.
 
Obi said:
I'd also like to dispell the myth that Shedinja sees much use in ubers. I have seen three so far. Two of those were only used because the people thought you could Baton Pass Swords Dance.
Click to expand...
I only mentioned shedinja because it was brought up earlier in either this or some other ubers-demotion thread.
 
Obi said:
I'd also like to dispell the myth that Shedinja sees much use in ubers. I have seen three so far. Two of those were only used because the people thought you could Baton Pass Swords Dance.
Click to expand...

I almost never see Yanmega, Dugtrio, Tentacruel or Abomasnow in OU anymore, but they're still quite common in a lot of other people's experience.

Perhaps you don't see many Shedinja's, but other people may see them everyday in ubers.
 
Obi said:
My reasoning was that Kyogre has more numerous counters in enemy Water types like Ludicolo, Lapras, Kindra, Palkia, Dialga, Quagsire, enemy Kyogre, and if it's locked into Thunder, you can Dugtrio it. Groudon doesn't have similar Pokemon, although I guess Grass types have better offensive choices against Groudon than some of the others. I'm OK with a few minor adjustments to the list I gave.
Click to expand...

Groudon lures in Exeggutor, Shiftry, Tangrowth etc. and unlike Kyogres counters, which have to target it's considerable Special Defense, all of Groudon's switchins can hit its considerably non-Uber 90 Base Sdef. Theoretically it can counter these with Rock Polish + Fire Move, but that leaves it pretty much without other boosters since it will almost assuredly have Earthquake. That leaves Stone Edge or Dragon Claw in the 4th spot. It could also predict by starting with Overheat or Fire Punch, but you can say the same thing about Kyogre starting with Thunder. The existence of Groudon will also make these countering pokemon much more prevalent for precisely the same reason: Free Chlorophyll speed boost. Tyaritar and Hippowdon would have to risk switchin into Grass Knots instead of Solarbeams, in anticipation of Groudon-inspired teams, so it isn't like they get a free pass, nevermind even Hippowdon doesn't want to spar with a Groudon that might have Swords Dance.

Bronzong walls Groudon fairly well if it isn't packing a fire move, as even Swords Dance versions have no way to score an effective hit. I suppose the counterargument is that Bronzong can't really harm Groudon without utilizing sleep, Calm Mind, or a weird HP, but thats what you'd have to consider. Will-O-Wisp neuters Groudon in a way Kyogre can't really be neutered, and a CB Earthquake is infamous for being setup bait for loads of pokemon.

Skarmory can send it out with Whirlwind, but again only if it lacks fire moves and again, Skarm has no effective means of damaging it. Although since Groudon is faster, getting hit be EQ during Roost probably isn't a huge concern.

Either way, most Groudon sets will probably be formulated around:

~ Earthquake
~ Boosting move
~ Fire Move
~ Stone Edge/Dragon Claw.

If the boosting move is Swords Dance it can be outsped by many pokemon and hit with Ice Beam, just like Chompy. If the boosting move is Rock Polish it will have a difficult time stopping walls like Cresselia who are immune to Earthquake or pokemon like Dusknoir that can neuter it with Will-O-Wisp.
 
That's stuff about Groudon is quite true Deck Knight.

People thought that Rhyperior's STAB Earthquake off of 140 base attack would destroy everything, but it ended up being totally countered by a crap load of stuff. Groudon's STAB Earthquake only has 10 more base attack on it, so it can't be terrible. Groudon doesn't get STAB on his Stone Edge either, so in a way, he's actually outclassed by Rhyperior with the Rock Polish set.

I'd say that the Swords Dance set has a lot of competition with Garchomp because of Garchomp's Dragon STAB and 102 base speed being a lot more handy than 90 base speed.

The Fire move really isn't that much of an advantage if it's physical, seeing as Groudon can't learn Flare Blitz, so it's stuck with the sub-par Fire Punch. However, it can just as easily put Fire Blast on its set to hit unsuspecting physical walls.

The point about him luring in a lot of pokemon strong against his Ground typing is true too, and that's a big disadvantage that Kyogre doesn't do with Drizzle. With Drought, there's also a lot more that can pull off a quick Sleep Powder or Stun Spore on Groudon, and then there's also the big problem of him still being neutral to Fire, which means that he can eat a humongous boosted Overheat, possibly STABed, and most likely not survive since as Deck Knight mentioned, 100/90 special defense is good, but not super-duper.

Specs Flygon can also really mess up Groudon if he doesn't have Dragon Claw, since Flygon resists everything Ground/Rock/Fire, while being able to throw back a boosted Specs Fire Blast of his own for the probable 2HKO.

Really, IMO Groudon does need to be added to that list, since Sun messes him up a lot more than Rain can mess up Kyogre.

Heh, if Groudon is let in though, like Deck Knight mentioned, there will still be competition for Ground types, while Kyogre will the undisputed champion of Waters.

If this guy is let in, I can't wait for Solar Power Specs Sunflora to start tearing up anything that switches into that massive Leaf Storm.
 
Bologo said:
I'd say that the Swords Dance set has a lot of competition with Garchomp because of Garchomp's Dragon STAB and 102 base speed being a lot more handy than 90 base speed.

The Fire move really isn't that much of an advantage if it's physical, seeing as Groudon can't learn Flare Blitz, so it's stuck with the sub-par Fire Punch. However, it can just as easily put Fire Blast on its set to hit unsuspecting physical walls.

Heh, if Groudon is let in though, like Deck Knight mentioned, there will still be competition for Ground types, while Kyogre will the undisputed champion of Waters.
Click to expand...

You're actually pretty right with your first statement, which anulls your second one. Garchomp is indeed similar to Groudon in some aspects, although the former only has speed to go for it stats-wise and a secondary Stab move-wise. But then again, there are one or two vital differences.

Now, when we come to your second statement - Groudon has base 100 sp.atk, which is a good stat- not great, no, but good. Couple that with the fact that he effectively get Stabed Fire moves, and therein lies the problem; Groudon could run a set like this one:

Groudon @ Leftovers
Naughty
252 Att, 252 Speed, 6 HP
Swords Dance
Earthquake
Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
Overheat / FireBlast / Eruption

as you say, reminds us a bit of Garchomp- except that Overheat deals 121.86% - 143.41% to Standard Skarmory and 59.17% - 69.53% to MAX HP / MAX SPDEF Bronzong, which is a reliable 2KO and not many people use in the first place.

That having been said, he does have much more viable counters than Kyogre, with Chlorophyll pokemon switching in and Outspeeding and Solarbeaming / Grass Knotting, and I agree with one or two persons who've stated this before: It's either Kyogre AND Groudon, or neither. Weather effects need to be balanced.
 
Agreeing with Deck Knight, we need Groudon if we want to bring in Kyogre.
Anyways forgot sword dance on Groudon, I'd go CB to hit hard from the start and just Earthquake away, while putting in stealth rock for fliers.
 
Obi said:
No, it wouldn't. One person is a ridiculous sample space. Moreover, you would naturally win more than you usually do because you have access to more Pokemon. If Salamence, Garchomp, Togekiss, and Tyranitar were banned, and I were having this same discussion for them, you would still sweep teams with some combination of the four of them vs. normal OU teams, simply because they won't be prepared and even if they are, they are at an inherent disadvantage. That doesn't mean those Pokemon are necessarily broken.

The only test I would see as valid is the Shoddy ladder. I would first request that people try to avoid posting dissertations on why Pokemon X is broken after the testing has started until we get some hard statistics to analyze. Then people can post their subjective reports in light of this data.
Click to expand...

I worded my idea wrong. I meant to say that I would test MANY people and I would tell them what they would be up against.
 
But, even if you do test against many people, some of the Pokemon that they use, might not be the Pokemon that can counter the Pokemon that you use,
Lets say that they dont think about the other things that UU pokemon can do.... Then, you wouldn't be testing this Pokemon's real affect, unless you used many people, using many different teams, each useing these Pokemon.
I'm all for this idea.
 
DBZ_Trunks1000 said:
Wow i didn't even bother to read pass page 2 of this thread. Not having anything against obi, but some of you are just bias for the fact that he is Obi. Hell, c'mon be honest. I will tell why i feel some of these pokes are Uber and can't stay in OU.

Manaphy- Manaphy is Uber no doubt. Manaphy is basically a tad bit slow Azelf with MUCH better defenses and can Tail Glow without the fear of Pursuit. With Tail Glow/ Calm Mind, Rest, Surf, Grass Knot/ Ice Beam/ Rain Dance. Not a lot can even switch in or wall it. Hell a Surf under Rain With Life Orb, will 2hko any Blissey IIRC. Kyogre ( who you are trying to move to OU dies to Grass Knot. If someone dares to use Vaporeon, what the hell can Vaporeon do back to Manaphy, TOXIC? while i rest? lulz. Manaphy shouldn't be allowed in OU. Can make Rain Dance teams more popular sure, but will be broken in so many ways.


Mew- If Mew was to be allowed in OU, you may as well give Cresselia 8 move slots. if Baton Pass was banned on Mew then it may be a shot. But he can basically do anything to it's counters he wants to. He can Bulk Up, to avoid Pursuit damage, and then RECOVER later. Or Calm Mind to reduce Shadow Ball damage, then RECOVER later. He is basically Cresselia with more Speed ( Doesn't fear Tyranitar Pursuit ) He has the option to set up and INSTANT recovery, while Cresselia has to have an 8 PP Moonlight, and with T-tar everywhere that sucks. Rest Talk is basically Cresselia only option.


Ho-oh- Choice Banded Sacred Fire hurts every poke, then with the burn rate, makes a 2hko even easier, especially if Sand is out to negate leftovers. With it's defense's he can switch in on Megahorns and Close Combat, hit back hard with Sacred Fire. Hell even Punishment on Calm Mind Cresselia isn't anything to laugh at, or Calm Mind Slowbro. Even rocks who are physical attack based, get ruined by burn. Everyone says Stealth Rock this, Stealth Rock that. A good player who wants to use Ho-Oh really knows how to not keep Stealth Rock on the field.

Palkia - Make it hold Life Orb or Leftovers, and he is fine by me in OU

Dialga- Same as Palikia

Darkrai- Fine in OU

Deoxys-D- Fine in OU

Kyogre- Wow, lets be honest, what stops Kyogre. He can wall with Toxic ( other bulky waters ) Make Manaphy the biggest threat in OU. Thunder most counters for some Paralysis. Calm Mind and sweep, if you think CM Cune was TOUGH, you must have no met Calm Mind Kyogre, especially with Thunder at it's disposal. Only pokes to wall Surf/Thunder Kyogre would be Quagsire <_< and Shedninja. Not all Kyogre run choice items, so trying to trap with Dugtrio would be risky. Too Specs set can 2hko Blissey. Scarf sets runs through teams after Blissey takes its defeat.

Wobbuffet- Fine in OU
Lugia- Fine in OU
Click to expand...

Wobbuffet now... What you going to do with one in OU? The only thing that can hurt it much is a critical hit from Weavile's night slash or Banded Weavile, Specs Gengar or a Banded Heracross.

Lugia is a Cresselia with Roost or Recover and Whirlwind... Just no. Same deal with Deoxys-D... It has recover. The only reason Cresselia is allowed is because that thing doesn't have that vast movepool like Deoxys-D and can only heal by Rest-Talk or the 8PP Moonlight. Deoxys-D can spread EVs towards its HP and Defense while Calm Mind on SDef and kill, or Bulk up while it EVs its SDef and kill physically. Not to mention it learns Superpower, which kills Blissey in like 2 hits after Bulk Ups. If in anyway or form it is damaged, it has Recover as well.

Palkia... Are you serious? Lustrous Orb + Rain Dance (Either the move or Kyogre, if that gets moved down) + STAB Surf = It will kill... It learns Flamethrower, Thunder(or -bolt), Lustrous Orb + STAB Spacial Rend, and a quite a large movepool. Even if you send out Blissey, that thing gets killed by Lustrous Orb boosting, Rain and STAB Aqua Tail.

Dialga can probably be moved down if you were to choose one of the two dragons since he's slower and gets killed by a mass earthquaker, but still has great stats and quite a lot of resistances. Give it Choice Scarf and it would still destroy half of the OU tier, but this thing is a much more lenient choice than Palkia, who indeed is a beast.

Darkrai is an anti-sleeping beauty. Thank god this is only a single battle, or else Dark Void would be horrendously pwning.

Mew -- What you said.

Ho-Oh: Aerodactyl's Stone Edge easily kills it before it can even make an attack... It's 4X weak to ROCK. Stealth Rock takes away half of its health alone. It's no problem in OU as long you have a relative decent wall or Rock type Sweeper.

Manaphy: Hippowdon & Tyranitar & Abomasnow prevents it to be an user of Free Rester. Even if in rain, Modest Jolteon with STAB 100% Accuracy Thunder kills Manaphy no problem. If Wobbuffet gets moved down, it can either Encore or Mirror Coat.

Kyogre is a pain in Uber already... Its SDef is decent, along with Supreme attacks. STAB Water Spout with full HP and Modest max SAtk in Rain gives out HUGE AMOUNT of damage. Mantines get zapped by Thunder while Blissey can get killed with Aqua Tail. If it holds a Lum Berry, it avoids any kind of status, allowing it to take down at least 1 Pokemon with Water Spout. Even if you switch out Hippowdon or Tyranitar for Sandstorm to cancel out the rain, the Sandstreamer will be taken down by this whale.

So in conclusion, Ho-Oh is the only thing that should be moved down; Dialga is shaky, but I think it should stay up there in Ubers... And its typing is wonderful.
 
If just to settle the issue once and for all, I wouldn't be against a test. I do not have high expectations, in regards to that this test will make several Poke`mon in the Uber tier viable in OU; as I feel several on the list are there for good reason. However, if it will ease everyones' curiousity and help straighten the issue out, it might be worth the hassle.

I will add that Manaphy was permissable on WiFi here some months ago, and during that period, it was quite common and deadly, even without rain; so it's not completely untested. Then again, the metagame now is fairly different than what it was several months ago.
 
Neus said:
If just to settle the issue once and for all, I wouldn't be against a test. I do not have high expectations, in regards to that this test will make several Poke`mon in the Uber tier viable in OU; as I feel several on the list are there for good reason. However, if it will ease everyones' curiousity and help straighten the issue out, it might be worth the hassle.

I will add that Manaphy was permissable on WiFi here some months ago, and during that period, it was quite common and deadly, even without rain; so it's not completely untested. Then again, the metagame now is fairly different than what it was several months ago.
Click to expand...

Oh yea, definitely a test. I'd love to participate. If you want to taste a Rain Palkia, doomion'd.
 
Uh Fire Punch IS doing something on Groudon...

399 attack vs 416 defense, 75 power(*2 *2 *1.5), 334 max HP: 94.61% - 111.38%

Sunny Day makes it like as if it was STAB so who gives a fuck about Flare Blitz. And that's without Life Orb too.
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
Uh Fire Punch IS doing something on Groudon...

399 attack vs 416 defense, 75 power(*2 *2 *1.5), 334 max HP: 94.61% - 111.38%

Sunny Day makes it like as if it was STAB so who gives a fuck about Flare Blitz. And that's without Life Orb too.
Click to expand...

Okay. 2x for hitting SE, 1.5x for Sunny Day, and I'm going to assume 2x for SD?

Yeah, Steel types don't exactly wall something with defacto Fire STAB. Fire/Ground is a pretty good offensive combo, Heatran already uses it to much success. Really, only Flying/Levitating Dragons and Waters can take Groudon (but it can run Stone Edge too).

If Smogon goes in favor of allowing everything, I think only Arceus (depends on if type is apparent from when it is sent out or not) , Deoxys A (for being impossible to predict off the bat), and Rayquaza (not sure on this one, but DD+Outrage is deadly) would be banned fairly quick. Mewtwo is more iffy, it doesn't have as viable a Physical side as Deoxys A.

Latios, Latias, Groudon, and Kyogre all go together. Latios + Latios because there is not enough difference between them to ban one but not the other; Groudon + Kyogre because having only 1 infinite weather banned is a little unfair, allow both or none. Now the Lati@s are linked to the Weather ubers because the Lati@s are some of the best counters for the Weather ubers. They all balance each other out, but I don't know what effect they will have on the rest of the game.

Giratina I really don't know about. To me, it sounds like the call to ban Blissey from standard. Allowing Giratina makes Groudon and Kyogre much easier to counter, but doesn't help with Lati@s. There's also the fact that Giratina takes neutral hits incredibly well, like Cresselia on steroids. I would trust Obi here, if not that Giratina made it much easier to allow Kyogre and Groudon.

In summary, I believe an actual full out no-holds bar test is the only way to accomplish this. We can't control Shoddy enough to do it there, so I think when Competitor is released we should start with no ban list and work from there. Go in months at a time, with the most popular Pokemon (obviously the most uncounterable) being decided on after each month. It should only take a few months to settle the ban list this way.
 
I'm going to touch upon something that hardly anyone has poked at yet—is such a test even practical? Naturally, those who want to win are going to use most of the ubers at their disposal on their team at the same time, I'd say at least three per team. You couldn't exactly fault anyone for throwing together a five-uber Kyogre/Manaphy/Palkia/Giratina/Darkrai/Blissey "team" like I just did, and there are battlers competent enough to make that an actual balanced team. But what you'd have in Obi's purported test would be three-, four- or five-uber teams opposing the original-five ubers teams, and this is a problem because I don't see why a popular uber's usefulness would drop any more than it would in the actual uber metagame just because it's being testing in an environment with pokemon that were already available to counter it in the first place.

Allow me to explain further with an example. Say we have uber x, who is countered by uber y and non-uber z. I have a hard time buying the "well the uber metagame hasn't been in place long enough yet for people to have explored the non uber counters" argument. What Obi is proposing is a convenient way of opening the masses' eyes to the merits of non-uber pokemon, but that's kind of a roundabout way of determinig counters for uber x especially when you know you have all 492 pokemon at your disposal (Arceus not included).

More importantly, uber y counters uber x no matter what "tier" you're in. I have a hard time also, therefore, believing that a three-uber team with uber x facing off against a three-uber team with uber y is much different than two-uber or five-uber teams squaring off against one another—what would change? What would be the difference? The only one I see is where Obi has attempted to draw the line somewhere after Groudon and Mewtwo, which is a line I don't think can be drawn with 100% objectivity even if I agree with it. I'd rather test everything straight up than come to some conclusion beforehand that we shouldn't bother testing this uber or that uber because they're "obviously" uber. That kind of got us into the "predicament" we're in now (predicament being in quotes to indicate the fact that the way the uber tier was sorted out in early 2007 is less of a big deal to one battler than it is to another).

Again, I'd rather us test Wobbuffet and the Latis, preferably at the same time. But in the interest of a test being practical, we absolutely must remember that, for all our efforts to conduct a qualitative experiment, the quantitative constraint placed upon us since the first trainers' eyes met does not make a mass testing of "suspects" (uber pokemon that are currently being considered for the standard metagame) very practical for the reasons I stated above. We only have six pokemon per side. Consider the logistics behind conducting this test in 2015 when at have 1,000 pokemon and dozens and dozens of "uber" pokemon. In my opinion, we've reached the point where Obi's line will be crossed back and forth by so many suspects that it fades to the point where we wonder why we don't just test things two or three pokemon at a time. It's tough to say how objective "two or three" even is at this point, but a mass testing is almost doomed to fail from the beginning.
 
The only way I can see testing like this working is if you did it starting with a pool of all pokemon, then as certain pokemon prove to be overcentralising to the metagame, remove them.

You can't really slowly add pokemon back into the standard metagame, but in reality this method of testing is rather painstakingly long, so it's not that feasible either.

As pure examples, because I'm not going to weigh into what is an uber and what isn't, if Infernape was only countered by Giratina, then Infernape would need to be moved to the Uber list, and then Giratina would remain in standard until it was proven to be overcentralising by being unbreakable by the pokemon currently allowed in the standard metagame.

You can only really go by process of elimination to find out what is classified as uber and the scope cannot be just limited to the pokemon currently listed as uber either, simply because if one pokemon gets "demoted" to standard that may enable another pokemon in standard to become uber. Somehow I think I worded that badly, but I hope the point gets across.

Anyhow, you can't just play theorymon and say "X stays because it's got A, B and C" because A, B and C may only be relevant if Y is no present. Got to have the entire scope of the game available for review for this to mean anything.

Which is largely why all the current uber talk is a complete and utter waste of time right now, either arrange extensive testing to back up the claims or accept that you can't prove alterations to the gameplay will affect things one way or the other.
 
The problem I have with your argument, Obi, is that I think it is stemming from the fact that you want the OU metagame to be as inclusive as possible. My perception is that you believe we have unnecessarily legislated the banning of some pokemon that may be permissible in the standard environment. While this is a legitimate point of view, I think you are being short-sighted in effort to fix the problem. By allowing the pokemon you list in the OU metagame, you restrict it more than you expand it. Niche pokemon who currently enjoy some use (list below) will be completely edged out and sent UU... which will in turn edge out a whole new (and larger) list that will be sent to NU where they will never see the light of day. The presence of the pokemon you list obliges the use of teams built of the sturdiest and the strongest and, I believe, destroys the tiny bit of variety we've been able to manufacture under the current system.

People will no longer have the luxury to use the special sweepers below when Kyogre and Manaphy are available... the walls will be supplanted by Lugia and Deoxys-D... and all mixed attackers are swept under the rug when Dialga and Palkia arrive. Even some of the most OU of OU pokemon would become overshadowed and fall to disuse... Gengar to Darkrai, Cresselia to Lugia, and even Garchomp/Salamence to the Dialga/Palkia. I also contend that any sort of stalling strategy will be no longer be viable when you have CM Kyogre or CB Ho-oh (not to mention the others) breathing down your neck. This eliminates just about anything whose primary purpose is spiking, stealth rocking, toxic spiking, rapid spinning, and all ghosts not named Darkrai. That list includes Skarmory, Starmie, Forretress, and many, many others.

I completely disagree with your rationale behind testing them all at once. You may be able to strike a balance with all of them present... but I don't think it is the sort of balance anyone wants... it wouldn't even be close! I'm all for testing things to expand the pool of allowed pokemon, but I think the best way to do so would be to rank them in order of perceived viability and test them one at a time. If one of them completely breaks the game when it is added and necessitates the presence of another former uber to balance it, then we've just narrowed what is usable beyond what could ever be desirable.

Dusknoir
Porygonz
Magnezone
Azelf
Donphan
Scizor
Yanmega
Jolteon
Snorlax
Milotic
Tentacruel
Mamoswine
Roserade
Spiritomb
Dragonite
Zapdos
Weezing
Ninjask
Umbreon
Alakazam
Crobat
Gallade
Staraptor
Froslass
Tangrowth
Aerodactyl
Slowbro
Mismagius
Charizard
Rhyperior
Empoleon
Ambipom
Sceptile
Arcanine
 
I disagree with much on your list, and, coincidentally, have used several of those Pokemon in ubers (and it wasn't as counters to the Pokemon I'd keep banned). Scizor, Magnezone, Ninjask, and Zapdos are those that I have used in DP ubers right now (and you can get they only get better with the likes of Giratina and Groudon banned!). I don't see how you got some of those on the list, either. However, you can't just consider those who would be worse off. How about those that would likely improve?

Ludicolo
Kingdra (Swift Swim means it's faster than things, a huge advantage over Palkia's middling Speed)
Lanturn
Shedinja
Lapras
Quagsire
Dugtrio
Abomasnow
Yanmega
Ninjask
Milotic (Hey Ho-oh!)
Floatzel
Electivire
Celebi
Machamp
Hariyama
Spiritomb
Aerodactyl
Raikou
Primeape
etc.

The point is we can both name Pokemon that would improve or worsen in such a change, and in fact, we both named some of the same Pokemon for opposite trends! I say we let the numbers speak for themselves if the question is broadening the game. We can predict what trends will show up where all day, or we could find the actual numbers.


Jumpman:

We don't need to test Mewtwo, Rayquaza, and Deoxys-A because we already have tested them for a year. That's what I view the uber tier as, a big test. I've played DP ubers quite a bit, and the list I came up with is based on that (although I have become convinced that perhaps Groudon deserves a shot... it was a borderline case as the mirror-image to Kyogre). If your argument is that we don't know how Deoxys-A, Mewtwo, and others would fare after we just ban Rayquaza (the Pokemon I have found to be the most centralizing force), then that's a different story, but I have seen no evidence to suggest that those Pokemon are weakened by Rayquaza's absence.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top