Roflmao, no one really uses Dusknoir and Shuckle, for lack of solid recovery. Them main reason why Gliscor is used more than Weezing, because Weezing has Pain Split, while Gliscor gets roost. Because typing wise and movepool wise, Weezing is a better defensive wall then Gliscor. Deo (def form) has a lot to offer, either Reflecting or Light Screening. He gets recover and can either spike or Stealth Rock, and is fast enough to taunt things that may try and set up. He can Super Power Tyranitar or Weavile trying to switching. While Brick Break from Dusknoir is lol on Tyranitar. Not to mention, he is slower than Tyranitar
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What is uber?
- Thread starter obi
- Start date
Manaphy is the only one on this list I agree with. If it doesn't have Drizzle it isn't nearly as big of a threat. It would have to spend a slot to have Rain Dance to even activate its ability AND then it opens itself up to the swift style Thunder coming in and messing it up. If you put that Rain Dance on there then what else can it have move wise? Surf (duh! I would think this is obvious), Rest, Ice Beam? One way or another without Drizzle, Manaphy would be sacrificing an option to do something.
If it doesn't have Rain Dance then its just a more well rounded Suicune. I think the other thing that scares people is without the rain, this thing has Nasty Plot. A Surf coming from that would hurt. Perhaps then Vaporeon's popularity would go up.
If anything Manaphy deserves a solid test. If it had a 4x weakness like Celebi I know people wouldn't hesitate to bring it down to OU.
Restrictions? You want to take away moves these pokes are known for? Banning moves is what got the Evasion banning argument started (not arguing it just making a point!)
I use shuckle....but, that is because I have an undying love for that moldy rock just like I do for Electrode. Dusknoir is still nice and meaty AND it has great status inducing moves/typing. Ddeoxys is an unused uber and that is probably because there are way better tanks (BEHOLD THE GHOST DRAGON!) Shuckle ONLY has its defenses to go on. I can be 3HKO'd by S-toss and can't really stop it because it lacks massive attack and its recovery move is rest which gives them 2 turns to work around you. Ddeoxys still has some speed and can survive at least 4 stoss AND recover it all off. Not to mention it can stealth rock, spikes and rip every leftover off your team. How many tanks can do that?
Heh, don't forget that Deoxys-D is one of the few Psychic walls not beaten by Tyranitar. Remember, he can learn Superpower, which busts T-Tar in half.
To the person who said that low HP screws all high defense tanks, that's partially correct. They're not screwed completely though. Remember, if they get Leech Seeded, they're not giving the foe as much HP back, which is a very good thing. Plus, about Shuckle. If he's EVed correctly, even without sandstorm, he is not OHKOed by ANYTHING. WITH sandstorm, it can reach a max of 921 special defense, taking <25% from pretty much every special attack there, even some that it's weak to. Plus, don't forget, it's miserably hard to set-up against it thanks to Encore and Knock Off. Shuckle is getting really popular, and he's actually starting to approach the OU cut-off point in weighted ratings at #65. If something uses Seismic Toss on you, just Encore and go to something else and you'll have a free turn of set-up.
Deoxys-D is actually quite fast for a wall at base 95 speed, and I know it was already mentioned, but when you compare Deoxys-D's defenses and Cresselia's defenses, they're almost the same, so therefore low HP does NOT break a tank/wall if it has the super-high defenses to back it up. (obviously)
To the person who said that low HP screws all high defense tanks, that's partially correct. They're not screwed completely though. Remember, if they get Leech Seeded, they're not giving the foe as much HP back, which is a very good thing. Plus, about Shuckle. If he's EVed correctly, even without sandstorm, he is not OHKOed by ANYTHING. WITH sandstorm, it can reach a max of 921 special defense, taking <25% from pretty much every special attack there, even some that it's weak to. Plus, don't forget, it's miserably hard to set-up against it thanks to Encore and Knock Off. Shuckle is getting really popular, and he's actually starting to approach the OU cut-off point in weighted ratings at #65. If something uses Seismic Toss on you, just Encore and go to something else and you'll have a free turn of set-up.
Deoxys-D is actually quite fast for a wall at base 95 speed, and I know it was already mentioned, but when you compare Deoxys-D's defenses and Cresselia's defenses, they're almost the same, so therefore low HP does NOT break a tank/wall if it has the super-high defenses to back it up. (obviously)
Lets put Garchomp in Ubers.
Wobbuffets there, he doesn't make the game fun.
Garchomp makes the game boring too.
So toss that bitch in ubers =P
Really hate that dude >.>
Personal hatred aside
The lati's could fully be put in OU, or atleast they're 1 of the best cantidates to move down.
In advance really the best reason they were in ubers in the first place was soul dew and its the same in DP.
The problem that would arrive with them in OU is that with calm mind there just as bad ass as when they have soul dew apparently.
also Kyogre in OU is can't happen, ever.
It's like putting Metagross/Tyrannitar/Salamence/Dragonite/Garchomp in NU.
Wobbuffets there, he doesn't make the game fun.
Garchomp makes the game boring too.
So toss that bitch in ubers =P
Really hate that dude >.>
Personal hatred aside
The lati's could fully be put in OU, or atleast they're 1 of the best cantidates to move down.
In advance really the best reason they were in ubers in the first place was soul dew and its the same in DP.
The problem that would arrive with them in OU is that with calm mind there just as bad ass as when they have soul dew apparently.
also Kyogre in OU is can't happen, ever.
It's like putting Metagross/Tyrannitar/Salamence/Dragonite/Garchomp in NU.
Why not have a BL UBer Tier?
All the Base 100s across the board: Celebi/Mew/Jirachi/Manaphy/Shaymin/etc.
and perhaps the Lati@s twins, and Ho-Oh/Lugia.
All the Base 100s across the board: Celebi/Mew/Jirachi/Manaphy/Shaymin/etc.
and perhaps the Lati@s twins, and Ho-Oh/Lugia.
yeah that would be cool a team with any 1 of these, you are in this tier so that true OU battles can remain without gay wobbufet
Darkrai should be taken out of Uber as long as Sleep Clause is on. Take sleep with a wall just like the way you take Hypnosis from Yanmega, Bronzong and Gengar and put something else in to kill it.
Its movepool is much smaller than a lot of other Pokemon, and it doesn't have as many resistances and immunities as some other Pokemons as well.
Gengar is immune to Normal, Ground and Fighting, while resisting Bug, Poison, and Grass...
Lum Berry users can also take a free Dark Void, while Yanmega can OHKO with Bug Buzz; Ninjask can OHKO with X-Scissor (Sub, SD); and Hitmontop's STAB Mach Punch Boosted by Technician and maybe a Life Orb or Choice Band can kill Darkrai no problem. If it's holding Lum Berry, it can switch in and deal hard damage on Darkrai, maybe OHKO-ing it.
Its movepool is much smaller than a lot of other Pokemon, and it doesn't have as many resistances and immunities as some other Pokemons as well.
Gengar is immune to Normal, Ground and Fighting, while resisting Bug, Poison, and Grass...
Lum Berry users can also take a free Dark Void, while Yanmega can OHKO with Bug Buzz; Ninjask can OHKO with X-Scissor (Sub, SD); and Hitmontop's STAB Mach Punch Boosted by Technician and maybe a Life Orb or Choice Band can kill Darkrai no problem. If it's holding Lum Berry, it can switch in and deal hard damage on Darkrai, maybe OHKO-ing it.
Good point on the Shuckster. The sucky thing is if you get stuff with it as your last poke and it doesn't have a solid move to hurt the opponent with. Roll Out was made for Shuckle.
The issue with Darkrai is really a stat issue (moves too). Its strong enough to really hurt teams and with Taunt and Dark Void as well as its Bad Dreams ability it puts a bad hurtin into anyone who is asleep. If the sleep clause is on then you only put one asleep but, lets say the person is smart. They will wait and use that sleep option wisely. The problem comes with the fact that it IS Gengar+. Gengar is already OU, if you rose its stats and gave it a better typing wouldn't you then say "Oh Gengar rules!" Well, they did and that's why its uber.
This isn't a thread to play theorymon with every currently uber Pokemon I mentioned, especially considering most of the Pokemon you've mentioned already have their own threads. I've been OK with the Kyogre discussion because it's mostly unique to this thread and a lot of it is framed in reference to potentially unbanning Groudon with it, and with regard to other Pokemon that could be brought down with it.
As long as HP is above 20 or so, HP is completely irrelevant except for factoring in Leech Seed, Seismic Toss, and Night Shade. Defense and Special Defense are irrelevant. The actual stat that matters is, as I've said in many threads, HP * Defense or HP * Special Defense, roughly. When you calculate this stat (essentially what DragonTamer's tiers are, except he adds the logarithmic scale to make other calculations easier), Deoxys-D with 252 HP / 252 Def is just a fraction of a percent higher than a Skarmory with the same spread for taking physical hits (and obviously much, much higher for taking special hits). However, Skarmory obviously has better resistances, so the hits that Deoxys-D actually takes better are Fire, Electric, and Fighting, with a negligible increase in ability to take hits from Water, Ice, Psychic, and Rock. Of these, we have virtually no physical Fire moves that people use (Charizard Fire Punches and if Ho-oh is allowed it would Sacred Fire), Electric is pretty much just ThunderPunch Metagross (Meteor Mash is just as strong on Deoxys-D as ThunderPunch is on Skarmory) and Electivire, which leaves us Fighting, the only true advantage for Deoxys-D. I'd go into this more, but the point is that raw HP or raw Defense are entirely irrelevant as long as HP is above a certain very low threshold (barring set-damage moves). The real reason Shuckle sucks is because it has to Rest. This isn't as much of an issue for Giratina because it has massive tanking abilities (high stats all around means a huge product) and great resistances and immunities.
To make the obvious case for this, consider a Pokemon with 120 HP and 60000 Defense and Special Defense. If we forget about Seismic Toss and Night Shade for a moment (maybe it's a Normal / Ghost?), this Pokemon is an amazing tank, so obviously you can't just look at HP. If you are going to be dumb and think this proves that high defenses are important, just consider 60000 HP with 120 in both defenses. This Pokemon is just as amazing of a tank (better hope it can't Baton Pass those Substitutes!), and in fact takes hits that aren't a set-damage just as well as the first Pokemon, so obviously defenses aren't the whole story, either.
As long as HP is above 20 or so, HP is completely irrelevant except for factoring in Leech Seed, Seismic Toss, and Night Shade. Defense and Special Defense are irrelevant. The actual stat that matters is, as I've said in many threads, HP * Defense or HP * Special Defense, roughly. When you calculate this stat (essentially what DragonTamer's tiers are, except he adds the logarithmic scale to make other calculations easier), Deoxys-D with 252 HP / 252 Def is just a fraction of a percent higher than a Skarmory with the same spread for taking physical hits (and obviously much, much higher for taking special hits). However, Skarmory obviously has better resistances, so the hits that Deoxys-D actually takes better are Fire, Electric, and Fighting, with a negligible increase in ability to take hits from Water, Ice, Psychic, and Rock. Of these, we have virtually no physical Fire moves that people use (Charizard Fire Punches and if Ho-oh is allowed it would Sacred Fire), Electric is pretty much just ThunderPunch Metagross (Meteor Mash is just as strong on Deoxys-D as ThunderPunch is on Skarmory) and Electivire, which leaves us Fighting, the only true advantage for Deoxys-D. I'd go into this more, but the point is that raw HP or raw Defense are entirely irrelevant as long as HP is above a certain very low threshold (barring set-damage moves). The real reason Shuckle sucks is because it has to Rest. This isn't as much of an issue for Giratina because it has massive tanking abilities (high stats all around means a huge product) and great resistances and immunities.
To make the obvious case for this, consider a Pokemon with 120 HP and 60000 Defense and Special Defense. If we forget about Seismic Toss and Night Shade for a moment (maybe it's a Normal / Ghost?), this Pokemon is an amazing tank, so obviously you can't just look at HP. If you are going to be dumb and think this proves that high defenses are important, just consider 60000 HP with 120 in both defenses. This Pokemon is just as amazing of a tank (better hope it can't Baton Pass those Substitutes!), and in fact takes hits that aren't a set-damage just as well as the first Pokemon, so obviously defenses aren't the whole story, either.
Or else just use my normalised base stats. :)
After thinking a bit more, I'm starting to realise that Garchomp being allowed in the metagame allows for other debatable Pokemon for discussion to be allowed as well.
February's stats are out, and Garchomp has deposed Blissey as the #1 Pokemon in the weighted list. That means that the high-ranked people are predomonantly using Garchomp. They are obviously doing this for a reason. Could this reason be "this is obviously overpowering the whole metagame"?
My personal opinion is that Kyogre is easier to counter than Garchomp. I understand why Obi is saying to allow Kyogre in. If Kyogre is easier to counter than Garchomp, and Garchomp is allowed, then surely Kyogre would be no problem?
If Garchomp is overpowering the whole metagame, then, of course, people would say "then why not also allow Mew, and Wobbuffet, and Kyogre, in?"
What I'm saying is that it'd be a bit hypocritical to say "no, don't allow Kyogre and that stuff in!" and then also say "but I still want my Garchomp".
After thinking a bit more, I'm starting to realise that Garchomp being allowed in the metagame allows for other debatable Pokemon for discussion to be allowed as well.
February's stats are out, and Garchomp has deposed Blissey as the #1 Pokemon in the weighted list. That means that the high-ranked people are predomonantly using Garchomp. They are obviously doing this for a reason. Could this reason be "this is obviously overpowering the whole metagame"?
My personal opinion is that Kyogre is easier to counter than Garchomp. I understand why Obi is saying to allow Kyogre in. If Kyogre is easier to counter than Garchomp, and Garchomp is allowed, then surely Kyogre would be no problem?
If Garchomp is overpowering the whole metagame, then, of course, people would say "then why not also allow Mew, and Wobbuffet, and Kyogre, in?"
What I'm saying is that it'd be a bit hypocritical to say "no, don't allow Kyogre and that stuff in!" and then also say "but I still want my Garchomp".
Here is why I have a problem with the "counters" argument. There are at least 4 Pokemon in the top 10 most used for February who have no 100% counters: Garchomp, Tyranitar, Lucario and Salamence. All four of those have 0 100% counters.
Yet we allow them in our metagame anyway...why, because we realize (at least subconsciously lol) that Pokemon is a team game, and counters absolutely do not have to be single Pokemon against other single Pokemon.
Many people use this "counter" argument to declare why something shouldn't be brought down from uber, but why then don't you use this "counter" argument to shift something up to uber?
I am telling you right now that Garchomp, Tyranitar, Lucario and Salamence have no counters. And of course, this is represented in their respective usage statistics.
I really don't think this "counter" argument should ever be used...unless people are 100% consistent and ban Garchomp, Tyranitar, Salamence and Lucario too.
Hmmmm...that sounds a little ridiculous, doesn't it ;)
Yet we allow them in our metagame anyway...why, because we realize (at least subconsciously lol) that Pokemon is a team game, and counters absolutely do not have to be single Pokemon against other single Pokemon.
Many people use this "counter" argument to declare why something shouldn't be brought down from uber, but why then don't you use this "counter" argument to shift something up to uber?
I am telling you right now that Garchomp, Tyranitar, Lucario and Salamence have no counters. And of course, this is represented in their respective usage statistics.
I really don't think this "counter" argument should ever be used...unless people are 100% consistent and ban Garchomp, Tyranitar, Salamence and Lucario too.
Hmmmm...that sounds a little ridiculous, doesn't it ;)
X-Act and Aldaron, I agree 100%. I had just mentioned something similar in the Darkrai thread, about how there are currently Pokemon in OU who are just as difficult to counter as certain ubers may be, but two wrongs never make a right.
Well what would the other argument be? Overcentralisation? We both know that Garchomp currently overcentralises the metagame, and it goes without saying that the like of Kyogre would do the same.
Well what would the other argument be? Overcentralisation? We both know that Garchomp currently overcentralises the metagame, and it goes without saying that the like of Kyogre would do the same.
As uncounterable as Garchomp and Salamence seem on paper, my OU teams handle them quite well. On the other hand, Kyogre just has to predict my water switchin first turn and thunder it, then he's free to sweep any of my 4 OU teams with water spout. And I do run into the occasional asshole Kyogre user over wifi so this is coming from experience.
People seem to forget that Garchomp, Salamence and Tyranitar all have crippling achilles heels in their 4x weaks to common moves, including the priority moves vacuum wave, mach punch and ice shard. So even if you lack a definitive counter, you can always use these as insurance. Kyogre, Darkrai, and all their uber friends don't even have that- Kyogre for example has 2 weaks which are going to hit his 140 base special defense and almost never 1hko.
But I suppose having counters doesn't matter, as Latios has common counters in OU (Blissey and Bronzong wall every version, unlike Salamence who can rape Blissey with brick break) and yet people don't consider bringing him down.
In any case, if we're trying to improve diversity, I'd rather just ban Garchomp than restrict the metagame even more by adding something like Kyogre.
People seem to forget that Garchomp, Salamence and Tyranitar all have crippling achilles heels in their 4x weaks to common moves, including the priority moves vacuum wave, mach punch and ice shard. So even if you lack a definitive counter, you can always use these as insurance. Kyogre, Darkrai, and all their uber friends don't even have that- Kyogre for example has 2 weaks which are going to hit his 140 base special defense and almost never 1hko.
But I suppose having counters doesn't matter, as Latios has common counters in OU (Blissey and Bronzong wall every version, unlike Salamence who can rape Blissey with brick break) and yet people don't consider bringing him down.
In any case, if we're trying to improve diversity, I'd rather just ban Garchomp than restrict the metagame even more by adding something like Kyogre.
My question is this:
Garchomp has usurped Blissey in the top used list, and all of a sudden it is too powerful and must be banned, but Blissey shouldn't be despite being on top of the list for several months in a row (and has now descended into the lowly second place.)
Seriously, if people aren't accounting for Garchomp on their teams it says more about them than Garchomp.
Garchomp has usurped Blissey in the top used list, and all of a sudden it is too powerful and must be banned, but Blissey shouldn't be despite being on top of the list for several months in a row (and has now descended into the lowly second place.)
Seriously, if people aren't accounting for Garchomp on their teams it says more about them than Garchomp.
Cresselia counters Lucario, Salamence, and Garchomp nicely, while Tyranitar has trouble with bulky Fighting-types (like Hitmontop, Hariyama, and Machamp) without resorting to the gimmicky Aerial Ace. Can we really say they have no 100% counters? SpecsLuke is probably the closest thing among that list, but that's locked into a single move, and thus you can maneuver around it, unlike something holding a Life Orb or Leftovers.
Oh, and you might as well add Heracross to that list, because Specs HP Ice 2HKO's Gliscor; Swords Dance, Toxic Orb Facade 2HKO's Weezing; and CB Earthquake covers every other Poison-type barring Crobat. ;)
I didn't mention Garchomp just because it's now #1. I'm just saying that it has less counters than Kyogre, and yet it is allowed. Blissey is a different story altogether, since it's mostly a counter Pokemon rather than an attacker. Blissey is overused just because it counters more Pokemon than most anything else, in fact.
The most common Lucario set which is the Swords Dance set will 2hko Cress with Crunch easily, and with Srock down Cb Garchomp always 2hkos Cress with Outrage as well, of course Cress is a decent switch into both but by definition I wouldnt consider them 100% counters.
Seriously, (edited out material)? Lucario Swords Dances while Cresselia switches in. Lucario then 2HKO's Cresselia with Crunch. Counter? No.
Salamence has 112 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe evs with Adamant, meaning Salamence has 405 Atk, 359 HP and 196 SpD. It Dragon Dances while Cresselia switches in. If Cresselia doesn't want to be guaranteed a 2HKO with leftovers (assuming no sand storm / stealth rock of course), she has to run 252 HP / 252 defense Bold, meaning her special attack is a paltry 186. However, her defense is left useless as Crunch then does a minimum of 55.809%. Her ice beam does on average damage of 79.4%, meaning Salamence can Crunch again and KO Cresselia. O, you'll run enough special attack to 90% Mence? Well that would require 228 special attack, meaning you are running a less defensive Cresselia, which comes out to 444 HP and 327 Def. Well if you run that one, I'll run Yache Berry Salamence, who 2HKO's Cresselia around 40% of the time. Cresselia a counter to Salamence? Nope.
Garchomp Swords Dances on the switch. It has yache berry. It is guaranteed a 2HKO on Cresselia with Outrage. Counter? Nope.
As for the Bulky fighters on Ttar, I'll give you those. Those are semi-counters, as they still take relatively hard hits on the switch.
And I will not include SpecsHeracross because I am not speaking in the realm of Gimmick. All the possibilities I gave you are viable sets.
So, since you know, we don't have counters for Salamence, Garchomp and Lucario, we should be banning them, right?
Or should we scrap a failing point?
The thing you're temporarily forgetting is that Kyogre's ability will literally impact the metagame greatly, whereas Garchomp's ability is almost the opposite when you consider that a good deal of its power comes from the fact that it benefits from a similar "overcentralizing" ability that Tyranitar and Hippowdon have. It's been stated in this thread already how many pokemon are both beneficially and adversely affected by infinite rain, and while both Garchomp and Kyogre themselves would be threats with which an entire team would be inclined to reckon, Garchomp on the whole does not impact the entire metagame the way Kyogre would. I don't think a test is necessary to figure this one out.
edit obi you bitch you didn't do my posts and page 9 and 10 justice this is our CHANCE to finally duke it out =(
Counter Pokemon do hold ground, Aldaron. It is true that some of the Pokemon right now already require multiple counters and scouting to be countered to begin with. However, the extent to which I'm willing to bet the current ubers do so is far bigger. They need less moveslots to fuck up a larger amount of Pokemon. They're more efficient at this aspect.
Firstly no one Evs Cress to Ohko Garchomp, Cresselia's max SpAtk is 273 with a Modest nature so therefore if it is eved to ohko Garchomp it will take around 70-84% from a DDanced Life Orbed Crunch from Salamence which isn't too good for something thats supposed to be a counter.
And Swords Dance Outrage is indeed viable as is being used alot currently on the few SD chomps i see just because of the lack of power Dragon Claw offers in comparison. Either way Cress can still be 2hkoed by CB Outrage and would have no time to set up a Reflect, and as for Moonlight how often do you see a Garchomp without Sandstorm anyway. Moonlight Cress is already hardly viable in a Sandstorm saturated metagame
This is more or less true but it doesnt hold for certain Ubers who would indeed be viable in OU, but Kyogre is simply one of those Ubers who has no buissness being in Ou and Dialga and Palkia surely fall into that category.
And Swords Dance Outrage is indeed viable as is being used alot currently on the few SD chomps i see just because of the lack of power Dragon Claw offers in comparison. Either way Cress can still be 2hkoed by CB Outrage and would have no time to set up a Reflect, and as for Moonlight how often do you see a Garchomp without Sandstorm anyway. Moonlight Cress is already hardly viable in a Sandstorm saturated metagame
This is more or less true but it doesnt hold for certain Ubers who would indeed be viable in OU, but Kyogre is simply one of those Ubers who has no buissness being in Ou and Dialga and Palkia surely fall into that category.
I couldn't agree more. Just ban Garchomp and let's see what happens. It can't really make the game worse that's for sure.
My thoughts exactly. Tyranitar has had no true counter besides Thick Fat Hariyama since people learned it could carry Ice Beam (Choice Band Earthquake 2HKO's most other Fighters, including Machamp and Hitmontop with Intimidate). Tyranitar also has the same ability that Kyogre does to change the metagame just by it existing in a team.
There are two ways we can go. Allow most things, excluding the ones that not even ubers can really counter, or we could ban everything that lacks at least 1 entirely solid counter. I believe Hipmonlee brought this up, banning all 600 BST pokemon and possibly the 580 BST pokemon. This still actually leaves a large part of the metagame intact. It just removes three of the four Pokemon you listed as being uncounterable (and Metagross, Heatran, Celebi, Jirachi, etc. who have been debated before, but we leaned towards the first option).