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What is uber?

Syberia said:
But Sand Veil makes countering it entirely dependent on luck, a majority of the time. When you're facing a Chomp that's locked into Outrage and can't switch, and then your CBeavile's Ice Shard misses, you still lose even though you made the best move possible. Not to mention the Sub/SD version that's pretty much guaranteed to get, at one point or another, a free Swords Dance. I say someone make a mod server on Shoddy where Sand Veil is replaced by another trait (I vote for Rough Skin) and see how broken Garchomp turns out to be in that situation.

The fact that luck was required to counter it played a big part in the banning of the move Wrap in R/B/Y.
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Then Salamence should be banned as well. Intimidate is cheap. It's not fair when it switches into my Heracross, and ought to take like 65% damage from Close Combat, but instead takes around 45% damage because it fucking lowers my attack stat. It even has a shot at surviving my Stone Edge, which adds an unfair luck factor (will it OHKO or not?), even when I make the best move possible.

I've also never liked the fact that I'm about to sweep in UU with my Reversal Primeape, but that stupid Sharpedo kills me with Rough Skin. It's cheap, because I made the best moves possible. So your suggestion would only make things worse.

Sand Veil is VERY overrated by some people here.
 
I keep thinking of Pokemon that need to be tested but just the stats say it all, for all ubers. Then, the movesets will completely rip apart OU, but Mew may need testing, since all of its movesets (unless you are choicing it) have non - damaging moves, which can easily be taunted, laying waste to it with its all too balanced stats. (Also fucks up its ability to baton pass the stat boosts). If Mew had a way to trap, not just taunt then I would consider it uber, no question.....But it does not. WTF at any other suggestions for other Pokemon being lowered to OU, they would tear it apart.

OMG! It pisses me off to see people suggest already OU Pokemon in uber, because people are taking OU, and saying, no Tyranitar, no Blissey, no Ninjask, No Dusknoir etc. (just an example) This is because people are mostly being reallllllly annoying when their team has a weakness to a certain Pokemon. Rebuild your team if you do not currently have a counter! I am not saying that to anybody here.
All Pokemon in the OU and uber tier should be there, stay there, and wallow in their own despair if they cannot deal with it...., well Mew can be moved down maybe, but I would not say into OU.

PLEASE do not move onto banning items, such as bright powder or kings rock, as I have seen earlier, some people are thinking of banning Garchomp because of evasion boost and bright powder. Well sorry, but Ninjask is not the only Pokemon you are allowed to miss against! Pokemon are not just built for the regular stats. Pokemon will be boring if Accuracy and Evasion are ignored. There are easily ways of countering this, but just because the never missing move is less powerful, it has some potential against Evasion. Live with the fact that people have better and more exciting strategies than the usual.
 
The difference between your Sharpedo/Primeape example and Sand Veil is that you know that when you Close Combat a Sharpedo, you will take damage. However, you can't be certain before doing so if using a move that will only hit 80% of the time will work out for you. Some people, me included, dislike the 'luck' element.
 
back to ubers... kyogre would be gay. ill give it that. but without its precious rain it gets counterd. t-tar could counter it fairly well especially scarf versions and other scarfers could revenge it. not to mention thunder can hit it for a lot more thatn t-bolt and it can be killed. i say if you unban kyogre, manaphy stays uber. I could also vouch for a new idea. Uber border line. Kind of like the bl for ou and uu but for ou and ubers. things that might fall into that catagory are broken ou's such as garchomp and tyranitar and blissey, and iffy ubers like kyogre, manaphy, and such.
 
I'm with Obi on this one. Most 'ubers' should be tested in OU first. I would've thought that Deoxys-S was the perfect example of a Pokemon that doesn't deserve to be uber. Look at it! It's almost BL. People have been saying for ages that it just doesn't look good enough to be uber, but many people still consider it uber today.

Was Deoxys-E even tested in OU in Advance, or was he just thrusted straight into the uber tier?

Another thing that bugs me is how people seem to have this fixation that because a Pokemon isn't legendary, it cannot be uber. I'm not saying Garchomp should be uber, but I'm sure it's more deadly in OU than a few of the current ubers would be.

Not only this, but now we have such a large group of ubers, that, in effect, they all prevent each other from being uber. In RBY, Mewtwo easily beat everything, largely thanks to Amnesia, and a broken type-combo, but mainly because it had no competition (except Mew to an extent). Now, Mewtwo has so many Pokemon to compete with that he isn't that broken, and neither are most of his competitors, so they should become the new OUs. Does anyone get what I'm saying?

If we continue to get new generations for a long time, and they carry on giving us more and more legendaries each generation, then the Uber tier will escalate, and we'll end up with 50 ubers or something ridiculous, when they could just be the 50 OUs, with Arceus and a couple of friends as the actual ubers.
 
Hah, I just read all 16 pages of this, and I finally have something to contribute to this.

I'm new to competitive pokemon. I'm working on my first breed ever. I don't have anything worth trading other than a copy of Expert Evan's Ninjask, and everyone seems to have one of those. I don't even have a full wifi team built yet, and I'm pretty mediocre on Shoddy.

However, when it gets to a debate on luck, I have experience in other games to draw back on. Namely, Smash Bros. I'm not amazing at smash bros, but I've argued a lot about it.


Luck generally is accounted for in Smash when discussing whether items should be turned on, and which stages to use. It's generally a consensus in the competitive smash community that attempts should be made to completely eliminate all randomness. To do so, stages are banned if they have random movement, because it can ruin combos, and items are banned in general, because they appear in random places and will generally be better for one player than the other.

Now, that isn't possible in pokemon, due to the fact that most moves do not have 100% accuracy, but I can see where you're going with the fact that the loss of accuracy is due to the opponents choice, not your own. You can't really complain about your hypnosis missing, because it has low accuracy, and you knew that when you chose it, but it is a little more reasonable to complain about your opponents pokemon's ability's effect on your accuracy costing you the game. I can definitely see banning Garchomp to ubers because of Sand Veil, but then again, it's not random that your opponent has Garchomp, they chose it for a reason, just that you missed.
 
I don't really like this concept. With the whole debate on "Lati@s without Soul Dew should at least have a chance in OU" or something like that, this is just going to cause an argument.

I could even see Garchomp doing decently in ubers with a Choice Scarf, it'd fuck Lati@s, Deoxys-A and Rayquaza, although a Groudon with Dragon Claw or Kyogre/Mewtwo with Ice Beam, or even a Giratina with Will-o-wisp (if you can't KO it with your dragon move quickly) would ruin it.

I would really rather just leave both metagames untouched. Tyranitar is easily beatable, so is Celebi now, and I just don't like where this is headed, but I can discuss whatever.
 
I can't argue for all ubers but I can say with great certainty that unbanning certain ubers would severely over centralize the metagame. Take Scarfogre for example. It comes in, starts the rain, and then hits something with a full power Water Spout. There really isn't much that you can do even in the ubers game. Generally, the pokes in the current OU environment can be stopped with the exception of Chomp in the sand. You can say all you want about Chomp, but when you've sacrificed half of your team to try to land an Ice Beam on the thing with no resulting KO on the Chomp, you are truely out of luck. Because Chomp is allowed in the current metagame, I do agree that you have a major case for unbanning many ubers. One thing that I would be worried about however is the major lack of legit usable Mews and such available. There are quite a few ubers that are exclusively obtained which, in my mind, would lead to an influx in hacking just to get those pokes. Just my two cents.
 
chaos 9 said:
back to ubers... kyogre would be gay. ill give it that. but without its precious rain it gets counterd. t-tar could counter it fairly well especially scarf versions and other scarfers could revenge it. not to mention thunder can hit it for a lot more thatn t-bolt and it can be killed. i say if you unban kyogre, manaphy stays uber. I could also vouch for a new idea. Uber border line. Kind of like the bl for ou and uu but for ou and ubers. things that might fall into that catagory are broken ou's such as garchomp and tyranitar and blissey, and iffy ubers like kyogre, manaphy, and such.
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what are you on? your saying that ttar counter a pokemon with a 150 power stab 2x effective move?kyogre will and always will be uber because of it's great stats a 150 power stab move that gets boosted by it's ability and the tied for third best sp atk in the game with specs nothing can counter it even blissey with max hp, sp def AND +sp def nature can be 2HKOed by kyogre.
 
As for Lati@s not being uber;

I've been running a Latios set in my team(s) lately:
Latios@Choice Specs
252/252 Special attack/speed
-Draco Meteor
-HP fire
-Thunderbolt
-Ice beam

More often than not, it's dead weight. It adds another Mamo/Weavile/Syclant weak, and most teams have enough of those.

With regards to everything else:

Regarding OU's competing in ubers: Ubers is a whole new ball game. If something is viable to play in Ubers and is OU, by all means, let it stay OU. It's like saying a year 8 Footy team can compete with fellow year 8 teams, but this team is so good it can compete with higher year level teams. However, if the team gets too good, it has to stick to playing year 9 and higher teams only, where the constant effect of having to perform to your best can take it's toll.
This is the so called "Manaphy effect". Manaphy is the really good year 8 team, but it's just so good it cannot play year 8 teams anymore, relegating it to ubers (year 9+ teams). The problem with garchomp is the Line between overpowered and Sanely powerful is blurry.

In regards to Ubers in OU.
If there is a certain variable that makes something uber IE Banned, than this variable should be eliminated and that soothing trialled, Which is exactly what i'm doing with lati@s. Soul dew is the Variable, giving Specs/Scarf/Leftovers is eliminating the variable. This however can only be applied to a certain extent, meaning that if Wobba's ability makes it uber, fat luck, Gamefreak/Nintendo's given Wobba that and we either have to live with it or ask GF/Nin to ditch it in order to portray the metagame accuratly.

In regards to any flaws in this post, i wrote this up at 10 at night. No excuse, but...
 
Obi said:
Now, I have my suspicions that Lugia, Mew, and Palkia would also turn out to be uber for sure. However, I haven't found them to be too overpowering in the current uber environment.
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Wrong way of thinking, but the stuff about how that it doesn't matter how well a Pokemon does it Ubers doesn't decide if its Ubers has already been discussed.

Obi said:
Manaphy
Deserves Testing.

 Mew
IMO, belongs in Ubers. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to start using my Uber Baton Pass team in OU (just replacing Dialga) and make everyone run Sandstream leads to counter it, plus I wouldn't have to worry about Arceus or Taunt Mewtwo. But really, Mew supports the team way too well.

Ho-oh
This is one I might consider for OU Testing, but it will probably remain Ubers. Sacred Fire with its 50% Burn rate is just way too good.

 Palkia
Probably uber.

Dialga
Again, probably Uber.

 Darkrai
IMO, Definitely Uber. Dark Void is just way too good with those stats and movepool.

 Deoxys-D
This seems to be getting some controversy, so I'll say that I'm firmly in the camp that Deoxys-D definitely belongs in Ubers. People comparing it to Cresselia are WAAAAY off base. They have the same typing and comparable defenses (Cresselia has higher HP, Deoxys-D has higher Defense and Special Defense stats), while Cresselia has the better ability. However, Deoxys-D has a HUGE FUCKING MOVEPOOL.

First and foremost, Deoxys-D has Recover, which is a huge step up above Moonlight, meaning it can carry a reliable Recovery move that isn't fucked over by Sandstorm, the main drawback of Cresselia, who's usually forced to run Rest/Sleep Talk as a result.

Then we have the fact that Deoxys-D is literally the ultimate support Pokemon. It can not only Thunder Wave like Cresselia can, and throw up both Reflect and Light Screen, but it can also do a whole lot of other shit as well. It has access to Spikes, Stealth Rock, AND Toxic Spikes. It can Toxi-stall really well, which goes in tandem with the fact that it's also a fairly fast Taunter. And the one stat that many people seem to forget is Deoxys-D's 90 Base Speed Stat, making it faster than the majority of Taunters that can safely switch into it (anything faster with Taunt risks getting hit hard).

Then we have the fact that it can Cosmic Power, raising its Defenses almost to the point where it'd be almost impossible to take down since he also has access to Recover. Not to mention it can also Calm Mind as well.

And then let's not forget its offensive movepool. It learns all the things Cresselia can learn, plus a whole lot more. Superpower makes it so that Tyranitar can't safely switch in all the time like it can against Cresselia. Kind of busy right now, I'll get back to all the other shit it can do later (I did this one last)

Kyogre
Hell fucking no, and the reasons have already been stated on this topic.

Wobbuffet
Meh, I personally think Wobbufet is too good for OU. Annoying as fuck and just too effective at what it does.

 Lugia
No. Haven't read through the entire topic yet, but the reasons should already have been stated, and I don't have time to write all my opinions down. Really though, it's the best wall in the game.
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