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What is uber?

Sovereign said:
Ok, so you switch in blissey, and now what? If it's the mixed version, darkrais sometimes carry sub so that they can just focus punch it, or it could have calm mind with life orb and actually 2ko blissey and ohko all the other randomly specific pokemon you mentioned. Gengar cannot even compare to what darkrai can do. As for deoxys-d....and what good use will a weak pokemon using extreme speed have? Superpower? That's a joke.
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I'm just demonstrating how large Deoxy-D's movepool is. With Calm Mind and Bold Nature, it can really take some hits AND deal damage. Recover gives him his HP back while Shadow Ball, Grass Knot, or STAB Psychic can definitely kill some damage after 1 or two CM at base 70 SAtk.

"Gengar cannot even compare to what Darkrai can do." Isn't specific enough at all. Do what? 10% more accurate sleep on one Pokemon. If sleep clause isn't on the this thing is Uber no doubt. If there is sleep clause, then it sure is a fair game. Plus, after the sleep is taken, you send out a Heracross. What you going to do? Switch? Unless you carry Aerial Ace... And only you would be carrying that on a Darkrai... And even if you really do, Scizor can really wall Darkrai as well, same with Pinsir. Non-Mix Darkrai is even easier. Lucario shakes off its attacks like there's no tomorrow. Hidden Power Honchkrow with Insomnia can both take the attack as well as as kill it with HP Fighting, as long as it doesn't carry Ice Beam or Thunderbolt.
What you going to have? Dark Void/Dark Pulse/Sub/Focus Punch?
Ice Beam/Dark Void/Sub/Focus Punch?
Sub/Calm Mind/Dark Void/Dark Pulse?

There are ways to counter all of those sets.
 
I am going to bump up this thread for obvious reason, to get back to the Garchomp discussion temperarily, until I receive Seph's response back (just PMed him) on how Curt's and my threads were "not getting anywhere". There's a poll that was going on, with more votes every minute, along with many people DISCUSSING why or why not Garchomp should be tested out of OU... How can a DISCUSSION be not getting somewhere?

I'll just use Obi's guard as a shield for now as this is his thread, to post matters about. As of now, please keep your discussions on topic. Of course, you can also talk about other ubers.
 
That was an awful discussion, at least once per page, someone would say he shouldn't be banned because he would suck in ubers etc. Both sides made fallacious arguments and butchered statistics.
 
the_artic_one said:
That was an awful discussion, at least once per page, someone would say he shouldn't be banned because he would suck in ubers etc. Both sides made fallacious arguments and butchered statistics.
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that discussion wasn't any better or worse than this discussion imo
 
1059860 said:
I'm just demonstrating how large Deoxy-D's movepool is. With Calm Mind and Bold Nature, it can really take some hits AND deal damage. Recover gives him his HP back while Shadow Ball, Grass Knot, or STAB Psychic can definitely kill some damage after 1 or two CM at base 70 SAtk.

"Gengar cannot even compare to what Darkrai can do." Isn't specific enough at all. Do what? 10% more accurate sleep on one Pokemon. If sleep clause isn't on the this thing is Uber no doubt. If there is sleep clause, then it sure is a fair game. Plus, after the sleep is taken, you send out a Heracross. What you going to do? Switch? Unless you carry Aerial Ace... And only you would be carrying that on a Darkrai... And even if you really do, Scizor can really wall Darkrai as well, same with Pinsir. Non-Mix Darkrai is even easier. Lucario shakes off its attacks like there's no tomorrow. Hidden Power Honchkrow with Insomnia can both take the attack as well as as kill it with HP Fighting, as long as it doesn't carry Ice Beam or Thunderbolt.
What you going to have? Dark Void/Dark Pulse/Sub/Focus Punch?
Ice Beam/Dark Void/Sub/Focus Punch?
Sub/Calm Mind/Dark Void/Dark Pulse?

There are ways to counter all of those sets.
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It is not only it's more accurate sleep move. It also has an ability that can potentially ruin anything asleep.
 
Question:

Do we NEED to actually test Garchomp at this point? He's been in the OU Metagame for a long time, and it seems that we should, right now, have enough evidence to make a decision.

Personally: I'm willing to discuss this, but I suspect that the conversation about Garchomp has more to do with his being #1 this month than his actual power. I've played a lot of CCG's, and its pretty common for cries of broken to follow a deck/card whenever it wins a major tourney.
 
Dr.Traveler said:
Question:

Do we NEED to actually test Garchomp at this point? He's been in the OU Metagame for a long time, and it seems that we should, right now, have enough evidence to make a decision.

Personally: I'm willing to discuss this, but I suspect that the conversation about Garchomp has more to do with his being #1 this month than his actual power. I've played a lot of CCG's, and its pretty common for cries of broken to follow a deck/card whenever it wins a major tourney.
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I think we do need to test Garchomp. However not in the same way we would other ubers (ex Deoxys-S,Wobbuffet). All we would have to do is ban Garchomp for a period of time and see if it opens up more options. Then from there have a discussion from those results and ultimately decide where it should be placed. (Although it does seem that we do have substantial evidence pointing to Garchomp overcentralizing the metagame).

I wouldn't say Garchomp being #1 is going to be a major point in the discussion but a point nonetheless.
 
NU is to UU as UU is to OU, not as uber is to OU.

Uber is supposed to be a tier reserved for Pokemon that cannot exist in a balanced tier. All other Pokemon are put into OU.

Some Pokemon are used more than others. At some point of use in OU, we say "anything used this much is OU, anything used less is UU.".

However, just like with OU, UU is not necessarily balanced yet. So we add BL. BL is the uber tier of UU. BL Pokemon cannot exist in a balanced tier where OU and uber Pokemon are banned (which is why it's absurd to talk about a BL metagame, it's not supposed to be balanced, and in fact, if it were, it is supposed to be UU, and we'd have an empty BL tier).

In theory we'd do the same thing to UU that we did to OU when we create NU (and thus we'd need another tier between UU and NU as a tier for unbalancing Pokemon). However, nobody played NU in ADV partly because it was full of uninspiring garbage like Luvdisc.

If people weren't so enamored of making DP tiers look like ADV tiers, this could be different. OU would probably include more Pokemon, the BL tier would be much, much smaller (I'd envision UU Pokemon being Steelix and Cloyster as far as ability to wall is concerned). This increase in the size of UU (by removing some from BL) means that it's possible to create an NU tier that's actually worth playing.
 
I'm all for adding as many Pokémon as possible to 'standard' play. I'm guessing that OU will become a much smaller tier, along with BL. This, as Obi mentioned, will open up many more options for UU, allowing team combinations that were not previously not viable in Standard to become available in UU. I wouldn't be surprised if the new UU became the most-played metagame at that point, but who knows?

I think Smogon needs to decide this: how centralizing is too centralizing? Conversations like these can go on forever about what centralizes or doesn't centralize the metagame. Does Smogon have an official stance on what is 'too' centralizing? Something like, "If the top X% of Pokémon used (on Shoddy or Competitor) is Y Pokémon or fewer, the game is too centralized?" Without a hard metric and months of testing, discussions like this will never be resolved. If a metric is established, people will still have dissenting opinions, but at least Smogon can say, "Here's our policy about centralization. If you don't like it, find another tier system elsewhere."
 
No, you are assuming the tiers are currently done properly; they aren't. Let's say we put Butterfree in BL. It obviously isn't going to unbalance UU, so it shouldn't be BL. Several "BL" Pokemon are there just because. Others easily balance out with other BL Pokemon, but people have this idea that DP UU must resemble ADV UU as closely as possible.
 
Uber is defined by too powerful for OU. UU is defined as not used as much as OU in OU. Ubers are not in consideration for UU because the aren't used in OU because they cannot be used, not because people just aren't using them. BL is too powerful for UU. NU is defined by not used as much as UU in UU (only Pokemon that aren't above UU can be considered for NU, because the reason the higher Pokemon aren't used in UU is because they are banned).
 
Hmm, so I guess that means that NU is where everything that really isn't usable in any tier is, essentially the slums for the poke-hobos.
 
evolutia said:
I think we do need to test Garchomp. However not in the same way we would other ubers (ex Deoxys-S,Wobbuffet). All we would have to do is ban Garchomp for a period of time and see if it opens up more options. Then from there have a discussion from those results and ultimately decide where it should be placed. (Although it does seem that we do have substantial evidence pointing to Garchomp overcentralizing the metagame).

I wouldn't say Garchomp being #1 is going to be a major point in the discussion but a point nonetheless.
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Probably a better way for me to have said it was "Garchomp is getting so much attention because he was number #1 last month."

Prior to that, there were countless threads on Blissey, countless broken debates on Blissey, etc. There are some "Complaint Lemmings" that just gripe about whatever happens to be number 1 this month. That isn't unique to Pokemon, it pretty much happens in any online community based around a game.

I'm all for discussing Garchomp as being Uber. There might be a case. I guess what I wonder is this: Do we need to generate more results, and if so, how?

I mean, we have results for Shoddy for the last few months. Where is Garchomp on those lists, and where are his counters? If Garchomp is number #1 in January, it would make sense that if Garchomp really is centralizing the meta game we should find the available Garchomp counters VERY highly ranked too.

Suppose we temporarily ban Garchomp? What is it we'll be looking for to change in order for that ban to become permanent?
 
Mia said:
Of course banning Garchomp will open up more options, since others will be able to flourish in its absence. Banning many pokemon in OU would have a similar effect since many of the counters are key to OU play. For example, one could argue that removing Garchomp would allow Flygon to regain popularity, but with the necessity of Cresellia diminishing, you'd be more likely to see Salamence instead.

Uber is, last I checked, a pokemon that is unfair for standard play. Deoxys speed form fits this description much better than Garchomp. Even if Garchomp does centralize standard play, it is not unfair for it. Therefore, it does not fit the description of uber.
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I would argue that having a nearly unresisted stab of Dragon/Ground (Skarmory, and Bronzgong are the only pokemon that resist it) and having those counters attacking Garchomp potentially miss if sandstorm is in play (A very common weather occurrence in OU) is "unfair".

It's not as though it doesn't have the stats or the movepool to take advantage of a miss or having so little resist it's STAB combo.



Dr.Traveler said:
Probably a better way for me to have said it was "Garchomp is getting so much attention because he was number #1 last month."

Prior to that, there were countless threads on Blissey, countless broken debates on Blissey, etc. There are some "Complaint Lemmings" that just gripe about whatever happens to be number 1 this month. That isn't unique to Pokemon, it pretty much happens in any online community based around a game.

I'm all for discussing Garchomp as being Uber. There might be a case. I guess what I wonder is this: Do we need to generate more results, and if so, how?

I mean, we have results for Shoddy for the last few months. Where is Garchomp on those lists, and where are his counters? If Garchomp is number #1 in January, it would make sense that if Garchomp really is centralizing the meta game we should find the available Garchomp counters VERY highly ranked too.

Suppose we temporarily ban Garchomp? What is it we'll be looking for to change in order for that ban to become permanent?
Click to expand...

We should be looking for what pokemon can flourish in a Garchompless environment. If more pokemon become available for OU play(a significant amount) then in the long run I would say that is for the better because you have more playing options.

Now I also think there are other pokemon that potentially push OU into overcentralizing itself around them and perhaps they need to have a look taken into them as well.
 
What is Ubers? Wobby don't stall me, don't wall me, no more...

I don't know
Why you're not there
I give you my stats but you don't care
So what is right
And what is strong
Gimme a sign

What is Ubers? Darkrai don't sweep me, don't sweep me, no more
What is Ubers? Arceus don't sweep me, don't sweep me, no more...

I want a Groudon
Not a Kyogre
Or maybe i should get a Manaphy
You want Dialga
But i want Palkia
What is strong?

What is Ubers? Dialga don't sweep me, don't sweep me, no more
What is Ubers? Lugia don't wall me, don't stall me, no more...
 
But Sand Veil makes countering it entirely dependent on luck, a majority of the time. When you're facing a Chomp that's locked into Outrage and can't switch, and then your CBeavile's Ice Shard misses, you still lose even though you made the best move possible. Not to mention the Sub/SD version that's pretty much guaranteed to get, at one point or another, a free Swords Dance. I say someone make a mod server on Shoddy where Sand Veil is replaced by another trait (I vote for Rough Skin) and see how broken Garchomp turns out to be in that situation.

The fact that luck was required to counter it played a big part in the banning of the move Wrap in R/B/Y.
 
As long as the tournament you run is swiss and not something ridiculous like single elimination, 80/20 in your favour is certainly good. This is presumably why people pack fireblast over flamethrower, especially in an attempt to truly wreck steel types on the switch in to physical pokes. As long as your team will usually win, like in this case 4/5 times, you should be able to have your skill represented fairly in a tournament or shoddy's ladder system.
 
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