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What is uber?
- Thread starter obi
- Start date
yess.. and scarfogre has water spout / thunder / ice beam / surf
hp grass may make its intro in the place of ice beam or surf... wish support and spin support says hello to keep his hp up.
To be fair, Azelf cannot take a CB Pursuit from Weavile. Manaphy takes it easily. Manaphy's defenses are significantly better than Azelf's.
Electivire guarentees 2HKO Manaphy with ThunderPunch.
And Manaphy is faster and gets a OHKO on Electivire. Not very well thought out...
Anyone who thinks Manpahy is anything short of Uber obviously hasn't had enough standard play experience. Its been tested at least twice since D/P started and both times its dominated the entire game to the point of being almost a guaranteed win.
Yeah, that's how I've been looking at it. One particular battle stands out in my memory where I was cruising to victory, then the opponent broke out Manaphy and the game was over pretty quickly. A lot of people may be pro-Manaphy but that just tells me that they use Blissey in their team. For those of us who don't use (CM)Blissey, Manaphy is a complete nightmare, and our only hope is usually to revenge kill - which isn't that easy with 328 speed, 100/100/100 defences and one of the best defensive typings around.
Weavile is not in the top 10 list of the Shoddy weighted list, and Azelf can survive Weavile's Pursuit with enough HP Evs provided it doesnt switch.
Manaphy was only tested once and was found to be fairly powerful but not to the point that it was unbeatable or it "guaranteed a win" and that was arguably when D/P first started and people were simply testing things out. The metagame has since evolved and i dont see why it cant simply be re-tested, I mean come on when Manaphy was banned people were still complaining about how Rhyperior was unbeatable and that's really saying something.
This can be said or any pokemon provided you dont have a counter to it. I've been swept by Infernape or DDance Tar even when i have been dominating an entire match simply because I didnt have an approiate counter and that doesnt mean that they are Uber.
I'm pretty sure its been tested twice. Once was the early days to the initial banning then the second time was after the game really kicked off and everyone realised it wasn't a Celebi/Jirachi 2.0 and its counters could be counted on 1 hand. This was only using one set as well, Tail Glow sweeper set.
Thing with Manaphy is theres tons of brute force Pokemon in standard game but Manaphy is practically bulkier than a Garchomp with little weakness, fast and has that brute power as well.
Last I checked after TG, nearly everything in the top 20 is a OHKO with none of them being able to even do more than a max of 80% on Manaphy under a multiple of situations, except Blissey. Now thats a massive problem causing a knockon effect and Blissey begins to overcentralize the metagame even more than it already is and its already no.1 anyway.
Thing with Manaphy is theres tons of brute force Pokemon in standard game but Manaphy is practically bulkier than a Garchomp with little weakness, fast and has that brute power as well.
Last I checked after TG, nearly everything in the top 20 is a OHKO with none of them being able to even do more than a max of 80% on Manaphy under a multiple of situations, except Blissey. Now thats a massive problem causing a knockon effect and Blissey begins to overcentralize the metagame even more than it already is and its already no.1 anyway.
manaphy's defenses are what seperate it from azelf and unlike many other sweepers it can actually take a hit from CSchomp and ko it back.
Agreed, and to a degree, I was at fault. But what are the OU counters to it exactly? The analysis lists Calm Mind Blissey as the only OU counter. I haven't ran any calculations, but maybe Ludicolo could stand up to him for a few turns too. Raikou has been mentioned a few times, but that has been dismissed now.
I didn't have Blissey. I didn't have Ludicolo. And since it would take something like Specs Sceptile to revenge kill him, I was helpless.
Obviously I wasn't the only one having this sort of experience, because Manaphy was deemed to be 100% uber.
There was a good Manaphy thread a while back just before its banning and I recall the more reliable Manaphy counters suggested were.
-Draco Meteor + Kingdra, needs a Petaya boost to do it but its a OHKO on Manaphy. Switches in easily and most of Manaphy's moves let it setup.
-Ludicolo. Takes very little damage and can avoid a direct confrontation if necessary if its a more stall based one.
-CM Blissey, but only CM Bliss. Other variations of Bliss get annihilated.
-CS or CB Slaking can technically switch in and take it out in one hit.
-SpecsSceptile with Leaf Storm.
Raikou was suggested but various problems were pointed out. One being only a Modest Raikou can OHKO but if it has HP Ice it'll have the same speed as Timid Manaphy. Manaphy hits back for a OHKO. However if it has Specs thats no problem as it can run Timid.
Specsmence theoretically does it too but it risks not only a predicted Ice Beam but risks being outspeeded too having the same speed base.
Just to tell you, in OU, Manaphy would have to carry Rain Dance to not fall to Toxic Blissey. If it carries Rain Dance, two other move slots would be taken up by Tail Glow and Rest.
Toxic Blissey + Vappy / Quagsire / Lapras, anyone?
That is just one example, btw.
Bottom line: The metagame is much more established now, and testing Manaphy in this environment would be much more telling than testing it during a period that everyone thought Rhyperior and Garchomp were equivalent threats.
Toxic Blissey + Vappy / Quagsire / Lapras, anyone?
That is just one example, btw.
Bottom line: The metagame is much more established now, and testing Manaphy in this environment would be much more telling than testing it during a period that everyone thought Rhyperior and Garchomp were equivalent threats.
This is absurd I can't believe people are thinking about unbanning Kyogre. It has 150 base special attack. Amazing stats in general. A unique 150 BP water move with a very good chance of a rain boost. Amazing move pool. Amazing versatility (bulky water, specs spout, rain dance supporter, CMer).
Can it be beaten? Yes of course! Would it over centralize the metagame? DUH! The number one question for all teams would be "how do you beat Kyogre" It would make everyone change their teams, adding a one of these pokemon which can sometimes counter some variants maybe.
I see what Obi's idea behind the topic was. That the line between uber and OU is a very fuzzy one. A line in the sand. But if you play ubers you see how people always use the same 20 pokemon. In OU I see around 50 pokemon regularly, maybe even more.
An argument could be made for banning/unbanning deoxys-e, or for banning garchomp or cresselia. An argument could be made for unbanning wobb or Manaphy even. But Kyogre is on the side of duh, it's uber.
EDIT: lol, if Kyogre and Manaphy were both unbanned at once (and no other pokemon) the only types of winning teams would be rain teams and counter rain teams.
Can it be beaten? Yes of course! Would it over centralize the metagame? DUH! The number one question for all teams would be "how do you beat Kyogre" It would make everyone change their teams, adding a one of these pokemon which can sometimes counter some variants maybe.
I see what Obi's idea behind the topic was. That the line between uber and OU is a very fuzzy one. A line in the sand. But if you play ubers you see how people always use the same 20 pokemon. In OU I see around 50 pokemon regularly, maybe even more.
An argument could be made for banning/unbanning deoxys-e, or for banning garchomp or cresselia. An argument could be made for unbanning wobb or Manaphy even. But Kyogre is on the side of duh, it's uber.
EDIT: lol, if Kyogre and Manaphy were both unbanned at once (and no other pokemon) the only types of winning teams would be rain teams and counter rain teams.
Well,if Kyogre is unbanned,we can unban Groudon too.Or am i wrong?
Seriously,don't.
Anyways,Thunder Zapdos can catch Manaphy and OHKO him.
Manaphy is another one i can say that we can unban.He,Deoxys-D and Latias.And please,not Lugia...who needs Blissey/Hippowdon when you have Lugia?Weavile doesn't even 2HKO this without Swords Dance.
Seriously,don't.
Anyways,Thunder Zapdos can catch Manaphy and OHKO him.
Manaphy is another one i can say that we can unban.He,Deoxys-D and Latias.And please,not Lugia...who needs Blissey/Hippowdon when you have Lugia?Weavile doesn't even 2HKO this without Swords Dance.
Depends on what you mean by that. CB Pursuit isn't a OHKO on standard Azelf, even sometimes with SR damage (84%-99.00%), meaning you've got a decent shot at either dodging the Night Slash or Flamethrowering the Weavile.
You do know that all of the pokemon you mentioned cannot switch into these ubers, right? I'm not going to switch in a yanmega into a darkrai's dark pulse, and I'm not going to switch in starmie or gyarados just to see them get tbolted. The cosmic power/toxic/recover/taunt deoxys-d set has nothing on steel or poisons, meaning the only thing you can do is switch out...not to mention that if you have blissey, just switch the steel and blissey back and forth to force pp outage.
Part of the problem with Dewless Latios is, like moveset restrictions, item restrictions just cause a lot of headaches for tier administration. Do we have a bunch of test periods for non-Scarf, non-Specs Kyogre? Is Attack-form Deoxys alright if it can only hold a Lagging Tail? Giratina with Black Sludge or a Toxic Orb to reduce its walling capabilities?
Not really worth the hassle given how much stuff is already in OU/BL and how relatively new the metagame is, in my opinion... and probably not worth it even after D/P becomes more seasoned.
Not really worth the hassle given how much stuff is already in OU/BL and how relatively new the metagame is, in my opinion... and probably not worth it even after D/P becomes more seasoned.
For the most part theres no real major benefits to using HydroRest exclusively against the all out TG sweeper considering hardly anything safely counters that version.
Rain support is a trifle matter seeing RD teams are powerful in their own right anyway.
Yes ignore the fact that Zapdos can be outspeeded by Manaphy.
The real question of this thread should be is "revenge killers" enough to allow certain pokemon in to metagame?In R/S the answer may have been no,but in D/P answer may be yes.In R/S heracross was never going to be faster than mewtwo but D/P that is not truth.Garchomp has few real counters after Cresse but it can be "revenge killed" fairly easy that keeps it from dominating the game.
How many solid counters do you need,before pokemon is ok?
I have always believe in good team building is the best counters for stuff i never depend on one pokemon beat another single pokemon straight up.Your belief ubers come down to which side this argument you take
All Pokemon need couple solid counters(probably like four to five) in the game or else they are uber
or
Pokemon needs one or two solid counters in game and good solid team building makes up the rest of the equation.
How many solid counters do you need,before pokemon is ok?
I have always believe in good team building is the best counters for stuff i never depend on one pokemon beat another single pokemon straight up.Your belief ubers come down to which side this argument you take
All Pokemon need couple solid counters(probably like four to five) in the game or else they are uber
or
Pokemon needs one or two solid counters in game and good solid team building makes up the rest of the equation.
That is certainly true to an extent but there are certain things out there that are just so incredibly tough without a major weakness that revenge killing doesn't actually work properly. You have to look at the whole picture too.
Manaphy itself is takes only a bit more than half damage from even big major sweepers like Outrage Scarfchomp. It only has two weaknesses and a lack of grass/electric priority attacks. Its great all-round speed and ease of running lefties for recovery puts it above even most speedy powerhouses.
Its not realistically feasible to rely on revenge kills on something which isn't/can't be crippled easily to begin with. So you need a good counter or two available even if it has to take advantage of moveslot syndrome or 50/50 prediction.
Technically anything can be revenge kill. You slap a Focus Sash on something, hit the uber as hard as it can, then you bring in your handy ScarfDugtrio to do like 30-50% with EQ depending on what the Poke is.
So in my opinion revenge kill is a bad argument for anything ever. Unless your argument is "Well after it uses Outrage I'll Ice Shard" but I digress.
So in my opinion revenge kill is a bad argument for anything ever. Unless your argument is "Well after it uses Outrage I'll Ice Shard" but I digress.
For Darkrai, if you say so, but I can switch Blissey into Dark Pulse, as well as Tyranitar.
Plus, what's an EXTREMELY SAFE SWITCH into Gengar? It has Hypnosis as well as can Focus Punch. A ResTalk Probopass can switch into Darkrai. Umbreon can switch into Darkrai (other than Focus Punch). MC Calm Milotic can kill Darkrai if someone else is taking sleep. Calm Togekiss can take Thunderbolts and Ice Beams, then finish Darkrai with Aura Sphere. Trick Room teams also nail this thing super hard, such as Machamp or Tyranitar or BellyWrath.
And I only mentioned one set of Deoxys-D's moves... It has a HUGE movepool, such as Counter/MC, Recover, SuperPower, Cosmic Power, ExtremeSpeed, Psycho Boost, WHATEVER etc. etc. etc.
Ok, so you switch in blissey, and now what? If it's the mixed version, darkrais sometimes carry sub so that they can just focus punch it, or it could have calm mind with life orb and actually 2ko blissey and ohko all the other randomly specific pokemon you mentioned. Gengar cannot even compare to what darkrai can do. As for deoxys-d....and what good use will a weak pokemon using extreme speed have? Superpower? That's a joke.