What is uber?

[Raikou]

Vaporeon stops Choice Scarf or Choice Specs Kyogre, which is the set most people seem to be complaining about. You obviously don't switch it into Thunder, just like Skarmory + Houndoom stop Choice Garchomp.

Unfortunately I have no choice but to switch in Vaporeon or Milotic when my whole team is 1-2 shotted by water spout, as is almost all of OU including Blissey. Even if I was to predict the thunder, the Kyogre user is capable of prediction just as well as I am and he has raw power on his side. Ice beam and water spout handle everything that can switch into thunder so it's like playing russian roulette against something with 680 base stats.

You can beat Garchomp with prediction and people still cry about him, and he has less power than Kyogre (180 base power move off 394 attack vs. 337 base power move off 438 special attack), which is my whole point. Kyogre > Garchomp, especially considering Kyogre supports an entire team with rain. So let's ban Garchomp instead of adding Garchomp v.2 to the metagame.

For the record, the Garchomp I think is most worthy of banning is the sand veil abusing SD version, if anything it just shows why we have evasion clause. And there is a silver lining to banning Garchomp- Flygon once again becomes usable and fills the dragon/ground niche while not being fucking ridiculous. How can we resist letting Flygon have a second chance?

 

[pmjc]

To be honest, if Garchomp is deemed more gamebreaking than Kyogre, I would rather take out Garchomp than allow in Kyogre. If that's what allows teams to have more diversity, then so be it.

This statement is true. I mean, the argument some users are proposing is that because one Pokemon may be game-breaking means that the action of bringing other game-breaking Pokemon is okay, but that statement fails to acknowledge the possibility that perhaps Garchomp is game-breaking and we need to eliminate Garchomp, as opposed to bringing in a slew of other Pokemon.

In regards to unbanning Ubers, I don't think unbanning Kyorge is really an argument, because even though water absorb pokemon can "Stop" choice versions, we're discounting the possibility that your opponent will outpredict you and use Thunder while you switch into your Water Absorber. A counter by definition is a Pokemon that can safely switch into all of it's attack and do damage to it. Also, saying that we therefore need to bring in Palkia to counter Kyorge is not a viable argument. It is simpler to not allow Kyorge than it is to allow Kyorge and a pokemon that can counter Kyorge.

Mew is also game-breaking, as its ability to BP any stat, taunt, recover at will, and having good defences makes it incredibly hard to stop. His effectiveness would make Baton Pass chains incredibly difficult to break. Not only that, but its also has the ability to use any of those stats it would Baton Pass to its own advantage.

Manaphy is one of the Pokemon which I suppose we could test in OU, but seeing as we tested it recently and we deemed it broken, I don't have much faith that it'll be proven to be non-game-breaking in OU. I mean, if it were tested recently and deemed broken, then why argue that it's anymore viable now?

The only Pokemon which I would really support being tested is Wobbuffet, and only because I want to know whether or not the improvement of Taunt would make it a viable choice in OU.

 

[Bologo]

Heh, I just thought of a great pokemon to get rid of Choice Scarf and Calm Mind Kyogre quite handily, though no one would bother to use it anyway since it is UU.

Quagsire @Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/236 SDEF/20 ATK
Adamant Nature
Ability: Water Absorb

- Earthquake
- Encore
- Yawn
- Waterfall

The main reason you want to use this is that it's immune to 3 of Kyogre's big moves on the Choice Scarf set. It gets 4HKOed by Ice Beam with Leftovers on, which is the only move on the set that can actually hit it thanks to Water Absorb and Ground typing.

Quagsire can Earthquake back for a solid 3HKO doing 34.60% - 40.47% per hit to a 0/0 Kyogre, which I would assume is the common EVs on a Choice Scarf Kyogre.

Then, against the Calm Minding set, Quagsire can just Encore the Calm Minds, or whatever hit it takes, and force Kyogre to switch out because even still, Ice Beam is the only damaging attack against it. Then you get a free switch-in with anything else while it's switching out.

I seriously thought that Kyogre learned Grass Knot, which is why I was reluctant to mention Quagsire, but now that I looked at Kyogre's movepool, it seems kinda like Shaymin. It has pretty much no movepool, but one move (water spout as opposed to seed flare) which can put a huge hurt on everything without an immunity.

 

[Stathakis]

hooly shit bologo you've done it again>.>
but still, if kyogre went to ou, then would you expect every team to have a quagsire on it? I can't see that happening.

 

[obi]

A counter by definition is a Pokemon that can safely switch into all of it's attack and do damage to it.

This is false. If that is the case, then several Pokemon have no counters. Infernape, Tyranitar, Salamence, Garchomp, and several others have no 100% counters, but that doesn't mean they are uncounterable. If we bring in Pokemon that you need to be able to beat despite being outpredicted at every turn, then things are looking even more grim for finding a large number of Pokemon that are counterable.

 

[umbarsc]

This is false. If that is the case, then several Pokemon have no counters. Infernape, Tyranitar, Salamence, Garchomp, and several others have no 100% counters, but that doesn't mean they are uncounterable. If we bring in Pokemon that you need to be able to beat despite being outpredicted at every turn, then things are looking even more grim for finding a large number of Pokemon that are counterable.

A counter should be capable of switching in on all of the standard moves of a set, or else it can't be called a counter. If it can't, it's just a switch-in. Otherwise, Celebi would be a Heracross counter, coming in on everything except Megahorn.

 

[Deck Knight]

Heh, I just thought of a great pokemon to get rid of Choice Scarf and Calm Mind Kyogre quite handily, though no one would bother to use it anyway since it is UU.

Quagsire @Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/236 SDEF/20 ATK
Adamant Nature
Ability: Water Absorb

- Earthquake
- Encore
- Yawn
- Waterfall

The main reason you want to use this is that it's immune to 3 of Kyogre's big moves on the Choice Scarf set. It gets 4HKOed by Ice Beam with Leftovers on, which is the only move on the set that can actually hit it thanks to Water Absorb and Ground typing.

Quagsire can Earthquake back for a solid 3HKO doing 34.60% - 40.47% per hit to a 0/0 Kyogre, which I would assume is the common EVs on a Choice Scarf Kyogre.

Then, against the Calm Minding set, Quagsire can just Encore the Calm Minds, or whatever hit it takes, and force Kyogre to switch out because even still, Ice Beam is the only damaging attack against it. Then you get a free switch-in with anything else while it's switching out.

I seriously thought that Kyogre learned Grass Knot, which is why I was reluctant to mention Quagsire, but now that I looked at Kyogre's movepool, it seems kinda like Shaymin. It has pretty much no movepool, but one move (water spout as opposed to seed flare) which can put a huge hurt on everything without an immunity.

There's a slight problem. Say you switch in on Kyogre's Sub and then Encore Calm Mind. Then say you Yawn. When Kyogre is asleep it will have 3 Calm Minds under it's belt.

Now, at this point you either start EQ'ing or switch in something else.

The problem is you can't Encore a sleeping pokemon. Since you won't know when Kyogre wakes up, it will be difficult to Encore it again. If it wakes up and uses Ice Beam, with 3 CM's on 0 SA Kyogre, it deals 63-76%. 252 SA Kyogre does 76-90%.

On 252/0 Kyogre, EQ deals 29-34% damage. That should break the Sub every time.

However, if it's 252/252 Kyogre (not entirely unreasonable considering that CM boosts its already massive SA and SD, it deals 22-26%. That isn't enough to break Kyogre's Sub reliably, let alone KO it before both sleep and Encore run out.

 

[Bologo]

A counter should be capable of switching in on all of the standard moves of a set, or else it can't be called a counter. If it can't, it's just a switch-in. Otherwise, Celebi would be a Heracross counter, coming in on everything except Megahorn.

Not if it's a Choice set. On a Choice set, if you can come in on a majority of the moves and take little to no damage while posing a threat to it, and therefore force it to switch out, then you just countered it. Not like it can switch moves or anything. In your example, Celebi CAN be a counter if Heracross is locked into a move that isn't Megahorn, because Celebi can force it out with the threat of Psychic.

Plus, being a TRUE counter to something is extremely hard for a lot of pokemon, not even just the top OUs. Being a true counter means that you have to be good against their whole movepool, which is very absurd in most cases, because most things in OU have very vast movepools.

There's a slight problem. Say you switch in on Kyogre's Sub and then Encore Calm Mind. Then say you Yawn. When Kyogre is asleep it will have 3 Calm Minds under it's belt.

Now, at this point you either start EQ'ing or switch in something else.

The problem is you can't Encore a sleeping pokemon. Since you won't know when Kyogre wakes up, it will be difficult to Encore it again. If it wakes up and uses Ice Beam, with 3 CM's on 0 SA Kyogre, it deals 63-76%. 252 SA Kyogre does 76-90%.

On 252/0 Kyogre, EQ deals 29-34% damage. That should break the Sub every time.

However, if it's 252/252 Kyogre (not entirely unreasonable considering that CM boosts its already massive SA and SD, it deals 22-26%. That isn't enough to break Kyogre's Sub reliably, let alone KO it before both sleep and Encore run out.

The solution for that is very simple. Don't Yawn. Encore lasts 4-8 turns, I think that's enough time to just bring out something that can kill Kyogre, just use a physical pokemon. Something like Breloom would end Kyogre extremely quickly, Breloom can get behind its own sub and Focus Punch Kyogre to death, most likely KOing before the Encore is over.

I wouldn't want to Yawn anyway, it doesn't go through Subs, so I'd just switch and bring in something else to do my dirty work for me.

 

[1059860]

So, if Kyogre gets moved to OU, basically all teams must carry a Vaporeon, or to an extend, a Calm Milotic?

And if Vaporeon/Milotic somehow gets killed, by such as ThunderPunch or Grass Knot, your team is basically screwed?

OU should be 6 vs. 6, not 4 + Kyogre + Vap/Milo vs 4 + Kyogre + Vap/Milo, nor 5 + Vap/Milo vs. 5 + Vap/Milo since everyone have to be prepared for a Kyogre or they lose almost automatically?
__________________________________

Not to mention if you have a Thunder Wave Kyogre + Wish Healer on your team, the situation can be even worse as not even Vaporeon can be a good counter.

 

[pmjc]

This is false. If that is the case, then several Pokemon have no counters. Infernape, Tyranitar, Salamence, Garchomp, and several others have no 100% counters, but that doesn't mean they are uncounterable.

What is your definition of what is considered a "Safe" switch in?

 

[scwizard]

Tell me when you done testing on shoddy plz so I can enjoy ladder again >:(
Those banned pokes are definitely uber.

EDIT: Garchomp has no hard counters and is is close to uber imo. I've never understood blisseys popularity.

Deoxys-e's needs another month of testing (a full month you see).

 

[umbarsc]

Not if it's a Choice set. On a Choice set, if you can come in on a majority of the moves and take little to no damage while posing a threat to it, and therefore force it to switch out, then you just countered it. Not like it can switch moves or anything. In your example, Celebi CAN be a counter if Heracross is locked into a move that isn't Megahorn, because Celebi can force it out with the threat of Psychic.

Like I said, those are just switch-ins. Houndoom is not a Garchomp counter, despite coming in on Scarfed Fire Blast. Celebi CANNOT be a counter to any Heracross with Megahorn, but it can switch in to Heracross on some of its moves.

Plus, being a TRUE counter to something is extremely hard for a lot of pokemon, not even just the top OUs. Being a true counter means that you have to be good against their whole movepool, which is very absurd in most cases, because most things in OU have very vast movepools.

Being a true counter is being a counter. You don't have to be good against their whole movepool to be a counter, because otherwise Hippowdon would fail to counter CB Tyranitar. You just have to be able to switch in to the standard moves of that set.

 

[Bologo]

Ok, but what's to say that everyone uses the standard moves on each set anyway? Not everyone follows the analysis down to the last move, there may be differences, and therefore people would deviate from the standard.

That makes the Hippowdon in your example very vunerable to something such as Avalanche from CB Tyranitar, which may not be a standard, but can still be used well, and will nullify Hippo as a counter for that moveset, thus, not being a true counter since it can't possibly defend against everything that pokemon can do.

 

[umbarsc]

Ok, but what's to say that everyone uses the standard moves on each set anyway? Not everyone follows the analysis down to the last move, there may be differences, and therefore people would deviate from the standard.

That makes the Hippowdon in your example very vunerable to something such as Avalanche from CB Tyranitar, which may not be a standard, but can still be used well, and will nullify Hippo as a counter for that moveset, thus, not being a true counter since it can't possibly defend against everything that pokemon can do.

Avalanche has the same power as Crunch, without the possibility of Defense being lowered, plus negative priority. So that specific example fails, but I get your point.

However, the fact that Heracross may or may not have Hidden Power Ice in some gimmick moveset doesn't mean Gliscor is not a counter. On the flip side, Claydol isn't a Physical Tyranitar counter even if that set lacks Crunch.

 

[obi]

Actually, if the set lacks Crunch, Claydol is a physical Tyranitar counter. If it's Choiced, Claydol is a counter for Tyranitar even with Crunch, as long as you bring it in on Stone Edge or Earthquake. Most OU Pokemon don't have a single Pokemon that you can use as your counter. However, a combination of Pokemon often does work 100%. No one ever said you don't have to use prediction. For instance, Skarmory + Fighting resist (such as Celebi) counters Choice Heracross. You don't play Pokemon in theory, you play it in reality, and in reality, Pokemon choose 4 moves among all the moves they learn, but only use 1 move at a time.

 

[umbarsc]

Actually, if the set lacks Crunch, Claydol is a physical Tyranitar counter. If it's Choiced, Claydol is a counter for Tyranitar even with Crunch, as long as you bring it in on Stone Edge or Earthquake. Most OU Pokemon don't have a single Pokemon that you can use as your counter. However, a combination of Pokemon often does work 100%. No one ever said you don't have to use prediction. For instance, Skarmory + Fighting resist (such as Celebi) counters Choice Heracross. You don't play Pokemon in theory, you play it in reality, and in reality, Pokemon choose 4 moves among all the moves they learn, but only use 1 move at a time.

This just leads to a pointless debate of "Well then I predict you go to Celebi and use Megahorn", so I think I'll cut it off right here.

But Claydol isn't a good counter to any form of Tyranitar, because 90% of the sets have a Dark move, and the rest likely have Ice Beam, so you wouldn't switch it in until you found out its set was Taunt/DD/Stone Edge/Earthquake. Wow, I don't really know what I was talking about lol.

 

[pmjc]

Well, if Obi feels confident enough that Kyorge would be a balanced addition to the metagame, I'm entirely for having him try it, even if I'm 100% certain that it would fail the tests. Besides, because we haven't done any testing (with the exception of Manaphy), everything any of us would spout would be "Theorymon".

To be honest, I really don't see any of these Pokemon passing, but if Obi feels confident that we'll have a better metagame, who am I to tell him that he's wrong when I don't have any actual evidence?

 

[umbarsc]

I think another thing we need to take into consideration is "How dangerous is it to lack a counter to this?". Will you be swept if you don't have a counter? For Kyogre, it's most definitely yes, it outspeeds basically everything and kills everything with Water Spout if it's holding a Choice Scarf, or boosts up with Calm Mind and sweeps with double-STAB Surfs. However, even though Wobbuffet is technically impossible to counter, it still only manages to get a kill or two, due to the fact that its defenses are too low to take strong neutral hits like Heatran's Fire Blast or Metagross's Meteor Mash too many times.

Gyarados is likely to sweep anyone caught without a counter, because it boosts its speed and attack with Dragon Dance, so it's harder to revenge-kill. The same deal with Yanmega, Rock Polish Rhyperior/Rampardos, and Dragon Dance Dragonite. Swords Dance Weavile is trouble if it outspeeds your whole team and you forget your counter in the PC, as is Garchomp, Azelf, and several others. However, any Metagross without Agility or Rock Polish isn't likely to sweep you, even if you lack a counter. Plus it's quite vulnerable to Dugtrio, making it easier to take down.

 

[Syberia]

For the record, the Garchomp I think is most worthy of banning is the sand veil abusing SD version, if anything it just shows why we have evasion clause. And there is a silver lining to banning Garchomp- Flygon once again becomes usable and fills the dragon/ground niche while not being fucking ridiculous. How can we resist letting Flygon have a second chance?

But with Substitute and Swords Dance, it's left with only 2 attacks. Skarmory walls Dragon Claw and Earthquake all day long, and doesn't mind missing a Whirlwind now and then because it's not going to be taking any appreciable amount of damage.

That being said, though, I say we edit Garchomp's trait on Shoddybattle to be Rough Skin or something instead of Sand Veil.

The thought of Roar/Whirlwind missing under any circumstances just seems strange. No matter how many Double Teams you've used, wouldn't you still be blown away by a strong gust of wind? Or hit by a massive earthquake, for that matter.

 

[Bologo]

But with Substitute and Swords Dance, it's left with only 2 attacks. Skarmory walls Dragon Claw and Earthquake all day long, and doesn't mind missing a Whirlwind now and then because it's not going to be taking any appreciable amount of damage.

That being said, though, I say we edit Garchomp's trait on Shoddybattle to be Rough Skin or something instead of Sand Veil.

The Sand Veil abuser doesn't HAVE to use Sub though. It could just as easily run Fire Blast/Fire Fang over Sub. If it uses Brightpowder, everything still only has a 72% accuracy or lower.

 

[Syberia]

I suppose. But that's a little too risky for my liking. And by "Sand Veil abuser," I tend to assume Sub/SD/Dragon Claw/EQ. Otherwise it's just your standard everyday SD chomp. Every tournament I've played in bans hax items anyways.

 

[Sovereign]

Manaphy- Controversial and might need testing if you want to drop this down, but if kyogre is somehow allowed with manaphy, then forget it.

Mew- I would actually lean this towards the ubers side not exactly because of its unpredictability, but more of the things it can do effectively (ex. trick, explosion, transform)

Ho-oh- Imo it should stay uber. One of its weaknesses is rock, but a good amount of rock attackers are slow and weak to earthquake (that and those weird sub + recover ho-ohs will just wait until stone edge misses or runs out of pp). Water for the most part are special attacks, and after a single calm mind, ho-oh will laugh at any water attack. There is stealth rock, but ho-oh can instantly recover that off and still have plenty of hp to survive thanks to its mega special defense and good defense.

Palkia- This is an uber. Palkias that carry rain dance or something that uses rain dance with damp rock usually mean there is no counter to this.

Dialga- This is an uber. I'll cut to the point on dialga using one of its common movesets. Bulk up/dragon claw/rest/sleep talk is almost unbeatable in ou. Even if you do roar it away, it'll eventually come down to the last pokemon, and you won't be able to stop it. You're going to need some hard special hitter like a speced gengar's focus blast to have some chance of bringing dialga down.

Darkrai- Imo darkrai isn't as bad as he sounds, but I would still stick him up in the ubers section for now. The mixed version is what really worries me about darkrai being in ou.

Deoxys-D- I'm leaning this towards ou. A lot of people say that deoxys-d has that infamous spike/recovery move/taunt combo, but so does skarm. Deoxys's weakness is similar to cresselia's, so I don't see why not try this out. The only thing I would caution about is its ability to calm mind/cosmic power.

Kyogre- This is an uber. I would not be happy knowing that a monster that can shoot out a 150 bp water move in the rain will be raping half of my team.

Wobbuffet- Just test this one.

Lugia- Uber. The only two ways I can think of that can reliably stop lugia are: gengar and toxic. I am not going to use gengar just because of lugia, and toxic wars won't even work half the time on lugia if its user knows what he's doing. Lugia has mega hp and good speed. That means it can sub/recover/reflect/whirlwind without much of a problem. Aka, lugia can avoid status inflictions and still wall perfectly. I guess weavile can do the trick, but it would need to get in there before reflect goes up.


Also, something was bothering me for some time. Isn't dragonite just as threatening as rayquaza? They're the same exact thing, except dragonite is slightly weaker...and that rayquaza has overheat while dragonite has fire punch.

 

[sandman]

I still think manaphy is uber. The thing that does discourage me is that when you look at shoddys weighted list and you see that after the sweeper set gets one nasty plot manaphy can pretty much beat the first ten pokemon listed, minus CMbliss, you see that this is going to drastically effect the metagame.

 

[1059860]

Manaphy- Controversial and might need testing if you want to drop this down, but if kyogre is somehow allowed with manaphy, then forget it.

Mew- I would actually lean this towards the ubers side not exactly because of its unpredictability, but more of the things it can do effectively (ex. trick, explosion, transform)

Ho-oh- Imo it should stay uber. One of its weaknesses is rock, but a good amount of rock attackers are slow and weak to earthquake (that and those weird sub + recover ho-ohs will just wait until stone edge misses or runs out of pp). Water for the most part are special attacks, and after a single calm mind, ho-oh will laugh at any water attack. There is stealth rock, but ho-oh can instantly recover that off and still have plenty of hp to survive thanks to its mega special defense and good defense.

Palkia- This is an uber. Palkias that carry rain dance or something that uses rain dance with damp rock usually mean there is no counter to this.

Dialga- This is an uber. I'll cut to the point on dialga using one of its common movesets. Bulk up/dragon claw/rest/sleep talk is almost unbeatable in ou. Even if you do roar it away, it'll eventually come down to the last pokemon, and you won't be able to stop it. You're going to need some hard special hitter like a speced gengar's focus blast to have some chance of bringing dialga down.

Darkrai- Imo darkrai isn't as bad as he sounds, but I would still stick him up in the ubers section for now. The mixed version is what really worries me about darkrai being in ou.

Deoxys-D- I'm leaning this towards ou. A lot of people say that deoxys-d has that infamous spike/recovery move/taunt combo, but so does skarm. Deoxys's weakness is similar to cresselia's, so I don't see why not try this out. The only thing I would caution about is its ability to calm mind/cosmic power.

Kyogre- This is an uber. I would not be happy knowing that a monster that can shoot out a 150 bp water move in the rain will be raping half of my team.

Wobbuffet- Just test this one.

Lugia- Uber. The only two ways I can think of that can reliably stop lugia are: gengar and toxic. I am not going to use gengar just because of lugia, and toxic wars won't even work half the time on lugia if its user knows what he's doing. Lugia has mega hp and good speed. That means it can sub/recover/reflect/whirlwind without much of a problem. Aka, lugia can avoid status inflictions and still wall perfectly. I guess weavile can do the trick, but it would need to get in there before reflect goes up.


Also, something was bothering me for some time. Isn't dragonite just as threatening as rayquaza? They're the same exact thing, except dragonite is slightly weaker...and that rayquaza has overheat while dragonite has fire punch.

Deoxys-D: Skarmory sure has that combo, but it dies on Thunder/bolt, flamethrower and Fire Blast. Deoxys-D, however, has both MONSTROUS Defense AND Special Defense. It's only a slower version of Lugia. Not to mention it can Light Screen/Reflect as well. With Taunt + Cosmic Power... Try that thing... You can barely touch it. Give it Toxic, Taunt, Cosmic Power and Recover can kill off any team without Aromatherapy. Even if one team DOES have Aromatherapy, once that therapist is fainted, your team is prone to toxic again. Steel/Poison types, Magic Guard and Immunity and Poison Healers are exception, but they can be taken down by another member. Deoxys-D covers the rest.

Darkrai: Yanmega, Hitmontop and Ninjask and Aerodactyl say hi. You can take a Focus Punch Gengar, you can take a Tyraniboah. You can have Yanmega or Crobat's Hypnosis... Now Darkrai's to be banned.

Rayquaza: I do agree that it's just a better version of Dragonite.

Mew: The Pokemon of ALL MOVES... I'm not going to put up with that in OU. It's too almighty.

Kyogre: Uber if its counter, Groudon is not being brought down, but I'd consider it Uber anyday. It's only to be walled really by Shedinja and Giratina, and that's only the standard set. If the Kyogre has Aqua Tail & Thunder Wave, it can be extremely dangerous!

Ho-Oh: Things like Aerodactyl can kill it with easy. Rock Slide or Stone Edge STAB on Aerodactyl deals an ENORMOUS amount of damage on Ho-Oh's 4x-weakness. Gyarados' Aqua Tail and Intimidate eats it quite badly, just carry a Rawst/Lum Berry if you are afraid of a burn. You can also have a Modest Persian Hypnosis, Nasty Plot and Power Gem. Starmie's Power Gem also deals an enormous amount of damage, but since it usually don't carry that, then STAB Surf would have to do. It has recover and can switch into Sacred Fire as well as shake off the Burn with a simple switch. ScarfCross and ScarfChomp are also able to Stone Edge this thing pretty easily, but becareful of ScarfCross' miss on Stone Edge... Scarf-Oh can be a problem, but Heatran/Houndoom takes the Sacred Fires anyday, and Earthquake can be solved by all Levitaters and as well as Flying types. This thing worths a test.

Lugia: Same with Deoxys-D... Quite ubersome. It's too defense, plus it has Whiriwind, Calm Mind and Recover/Roost.

 

[gengod]

I still think manaphy is uber. The thing that does discourage me is that when you look at shoddys weighted list and you see that after the sweeper set gets one nasty plot manaphy can pretty much beat the first ten pokemon listed, minus CMbliss, you see that this is going to drastically effect the metagame.

So can Azelf so that isn't really saying much about Manaphy.