Its decent against chien pao too if that’s your cup of tea, but yeah really mid at best if it doesn’t just wall your whole team
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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what perks does running headlong rush over earthquake have on great tusk? i see this fairly often and i feel like earthquake would be better since it has no drawback on top of being non-contact and having higher pp. does the extra 20 bp from headlong rush hit some important damage thresholds? haven't seen any calcs comparing the two
Headlong Rush isn't in the calc so i just made earthquake more powerful (headlong rush is italic'd), but i found these. I have no idea how relevant they are.
252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 214-253 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 178-211 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 276-325 (87 - 102.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 229-271 (72.2 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 172-204 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 144-169 (38.8 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 372-438 (100.5 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 308-366 (83.2 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(i run 116 HP kingambit to outspeed corviknight)
These calcs are wrong. The actual calc is
(Chi-yu has adaptability to simulate beads of ruin)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 376-444 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 460-542 (105.9 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 336-396 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 544-640 (125.3 - 147.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Baxcalibur is fucked
I've been trying to run slower/stall-like teams as well but I find that besides Garg and a selection of Unaware 'mons I am really forced to use something scarfed to deal with subbed set-up sweepers. I've been using scarfed Gholdengo to this end, but the team feels a little bit frailer overall than I'm used to stall being with all of the OP mons in the tier right now & it doesn't feel like there's real defensive counterplay to most of the Shed Tail setups that doesn't involve sacrificing at least one mon breaking the sub.
I know that any sound move and pokemon with Infiltrator can bypass substitute. Also Multi-Strike moves can continue to attack the pokemon after the substitute breaks, Loaded Dice can ensure this more often.
??? That isn't an accurate representation of beads of ruin. The drop is 25% of the opposing pokemon's defense drop.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 282-333 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah the counterplay to Shed Tail setups can be tough, I'm glad there are multiple options with some unaware Pokémon. Depending on the matchup I won't lie you might have to sack a Pokémon to break the substitute. I've been using scarfers with trick so I can break Cyclizar before it Shed Tail (Substitutes) up.
Yeah I feel like that's why I've been seeing an uptick of Mixed Dragapult and DD Dragapult with Dragon Dart [with Infiltrator].
Speaking of random swift swimmers have you tried out Golduck yet? It got Nasty Plot this gen and also has access to Ice Beam, Psychic, Focus Blast, and Grass Knot for coverage. I haven’t given it a try yet but if Floatzel can put in work maybe Golduck can tooI know this is gonna get eyerolls but hear me out.
This mon is actually pretty good.
So it's pretty clear right now that the metagame is very offensive. In order to combat that a bit, I wanted to mess around with rain; I made a few variants and discovered rain is quite difficult to build rn since you're kinda fucked if you lose a key piece to a strong Tera user. I didn't really like using Barraskewda - w/o Flip Turn it just wasn't hitting hard enough unless I burnt my Tera on it, and even then stuff like Roaring Moon still created awkward 50/50s. When scrolling through the list of Swift Swim users to find a replacement, I came across Floatzel.
Statistically it's just a worse Barraskewda, no doubt about that - but what really separates it is Wave Crash.
Floatzel @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Ice Spinner
- Aqua Jet
- Liquidation
I've been running this with Water as my Tera type and holy moly it's so good. The amount of games I've swept with Floatzel has been honestly insane, it's really threatening vs a lot of teams. Water Tera Wave Crash in rain is such a silly move that you can perform hilarious feats like the following:
OHKOing Roaring Moon: 252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon in Rain: 336-396 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
OHKOing Corviknight: 252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight in Rain: 378-446 (94.5 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
OHKOing pretty much every offensive mon: you get it
Now obviously you're not gonna wanna click this move all the time, but the point is there; it's really good at cleaning up weakened teams with Liquidation, so the recoil is not all that big a deal either. Here are a few games I got that really demonstrate how good Floatzel can be.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1725907395
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1725912943 (it kills all 6 lol)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1726618367 (it kills all 6 again)
I think it's better than Barraskewda solely off the sheer power of Wave Crash and think it deserves a bit more experimentation than the mediocre team I made. Would love to see what others can come up with!
Quaquaval @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 176 SpD / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Aqua Step
- Close Combat
- Taunt
got smashed by him on ladder. unironically better than palafin lol
I'm pretty sure you dropped defense instead of spdef there, buddy
Actually you are wrong, you probably used the damage calculator and gave Chi Yu Beads Of Ruin as its ability. However Beads Of Ruin isn't working on the damage calculator yet so you are calculating Chi Yu with no ability. As the in calculator ability isn't working we have to find another way to represent the increased damage that decreasing the special defense gives Chi Yu. As Baxcaliber has 208 Special defense we multiply 208 by 0.75 for a 25% reduction, which gives us an answer of 156 special defense. After reducing Baxcaliber's SpDEF to 156 this is the calc for Modest specs Chi Yu.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads Of Ruin Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 376-444 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Or instead of doing all that math you could give Chi Yu Adaptability and get the same result.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 376-444 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
No, he just used Beads of Ruin in the calculator and didn't realize the ability wasn't programmed lol.
I've tried scarfers with trick but a lot of them tend to sub first turn. So really the most effective strategy I've found is sending out an Unaware 'mon to tank a hit and break the Sub, then bring in Gholdengo.
if it is broken they can just ban it like they have done with baton pass the OHKO moves and the evasion boosting moves.
people who play "anything goes" may want to use it.
my question remains unanswered.
Has anyone tried Lucario much?
Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat / Earthquake
- Bullet Punch / Crunch / Ice punch / Earthquake
thanks to its typing, the standard e killer set (now with optional normal type stab) can be used in the current metagame to great success.
bullet punch is a decent auxiliary priority move, tho it’s limited since most things that revenge or check Lucario wont be threatened by it anyway, so the various other options cover the most problematic Pokémon.
eq hits gholdengo, tho close combat is important to be relevant without the +2 boost, and to break through Corvinight after +2. Crunch and ice punch are traditional coverage moves that might surprise ghost types and dragonite respectively. There’s probably value in finding a coverage move alternative for annihilape as well.
after a setup turn it’s e speed is more powerful than dnite at +1. And importantly, Lucario can actually run life orb thanks to its resistance to hazards and ability to set up on quite a few options.
in the current hazard stacking meta , there are lots of frail Pokémon’s with heavy duty boots that fold to +2 espeed anyway, or there are bulky Pokémon that fold to +2 close combats after taking hazards damage.
the main thing holding it back is the speed of most ghost types that threaten it, especially the popular choice scarf gholdeno set. generally speaking the high proportion of ghost types and also Tera-ghost Pokémon is an overall issue for lucario to provide consistent results without scouting out and baiting a team until many turns have passed.
However lucario retains value, even in the pre-ban gholdengo meta - excuse the wild assumption - thanks to its ability to put massive revenging pressure on the other ban-potential threats in OU, most notably the ice dog and the fire fish.
Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat / Earthquake
- Bullet Punch / Crunch / Ice punch / Earthquake
thanks to its typing, the standard e killer set (now with optional normal type stab) can be used in the current metagame to great success.
bullet punch is a decent auxiliary priority move, tho it’s limited since most things that revenge or check Lucario wont be threatened by it anyway, so the various other options cover the most problematic Pokémon.
eq hits gholdengo, tho close combat is important to be relevant without the +2 boost, and to break through Corvinight after +2. Crunch and ice punch are traditional coverage moves that might surprise ghost types and dragonite respectively. There’s probably value in finding a coverage move alternative for annihilape as well.
after a setup turn it’s e speed is more powerful than dnite at +1. And importantly, Lucario can actually run life orb thanks to its resistance to hazards and ability to set up on quite a few options.
in the current hazard stacking meta , there are lots of frail Pokémon’s with heavy duty boots that fold to +2 espeed anyway, or there are bulky Pokémon that fold to +2 close combats after taking hazards damage.
the main thing holding it back is the speed of most ghost types that threaten it, especially the popular choice scarf gholdeno set. generally speaking the high proportion of ghost types and also Tera-ghost Pokémon is an overall issue for lucario to provide consistent results without scouting out and baiting a team until many turns have passed.
However lucario retains value, even in the pre-ban gholdengo meta - excuse the wild assumption - thanks to its ability to put massive revenging pressure on the other ban-potential threats in OU, most notably the ice dog and the fire fish.
Dusk Mage Necrozma
formerly XenonHero126
Yeah it’ll definitely be coded either way, because of like you said AG. As well as the off chance that it’s balanced in OU.
I really think Shed Tail needs to go, especially to be consistent with the Baton Pass ban.
Cyclizar is far more obnoxious because of its speed and regenerator, but with it's steel typing Orthworm can also set up on defensive teams without much issue. Being able to set up Sub and Baton Pass in a single turn more then makes up for the extra 25% health lost - especially when passers don't usually have any other important jobs on their team other then passing subs. And heck and if Cyclizer gets gets banned we might even see scarf Orthworms. Realistically with Stealth Rock they'd only get a single chance to pass a sub but one sub is still enough to make a break a game.
While Orthworm isn't outright broken I do feel like it's almost like Shadow Tag Gothitelle in that it can just destroy certain team compositions despite being sucky in almost every other way.
Ok, I agree Shed Tails warrants greater discussion, but let’s not compare it to Shadow Tag or Gothitelle — trapping has an entirely different impact and Goth invalidated entire teams and Pokemon outright.
On the other hand it IS very comparable to weaker forms of baton pass, think: stuff like SD passing gliscor giving stuff a position to setup and win where they wouldn’t be able to otherwise. While the mon itself is relatively underwhelming, the strategy is just super cheesy and uncompetitive.
After playing the meta I agree that Cyclizar has to go.
And no, Orthworm is not broken, I played against him too and the low Speed does matter a lot, only allowing him to fire the move once. If he chooses the wrong moment (for example, when foe's Whirlwind Ting-Lu is still with high health) , the Mon is ruined.
Meanwhile Cyclizar can afford more mistakes due to enormous speed + Regenerator.
Comparison with Baton Pass are fair, but in reality Baton Pass was "broken" mainly due to Stats boost and Espeon being unable to be phazed or statused. Yes, Espeon specifically was a very big factor in Baton Pass Ban. With Shed Tail, Espeon still sees almost 0 use due to being unable to abuse it. Meanwhile actual abussers still have enough counterplay as long as Shed Tail is only used once, aka Orthworm.
What breaks Shed Tail is Cyclizar and Cyclizar only. Of course, if other fast Mons or Mons with gigantic HP or Mons with Regenerator learned the move, then the move would have to be banned.
As of now, unless there is enough evidence provided of Orthworm breaking the meta with Shed Tail, it's Cyclizar alone the one that has to go.
And no, Orthworm is not broken, I played against him too and the low Speed does matter a lot, only allowing him to fire the move once. If he chooses the wrong moment (for example, when foe's Whirlwind Ting-Lu is still with high health) , the Mon is ruined.
Meanwhile Cyclizar can afford more mistakes due to enormous speed + Regenerator.
Comparison with Baton Pass are fair, but in reality Baton Pass was "broken" mainly due to Stats boost and Espeon being unable to be phazed or statused. Yes, Espeon specifically was a very big factor in Baton Pass Ban. With Shed Tail, Espeon still sees almost 0 use due to being unable to abuse it. Meanwhile actual abussers still have enough counterplay as long as Shed Tail is only used once, aka Orthworm.
What breaks Shed Tail is Cyclizar and Cyclizar only. Of course, if other fast Mons or Mons with gigantic HP or Mons with Regenerator learned the move, then the move would have to be banned.
As of now, unless there is enough evidence provided of Orthworm breaking the meta with Shed Tail, it's Cyclizar alone the one that has to go.
How good do you guys think 
armarouge and 
ceruledge are? I've been looking here recently and saw that both had usage above the OU cutoff.
From my admittedly limited experience, these two aren't that threatening and frail, so I'm surprised they got a lot of usage.
Side note, I really like using Scizor right now! Priority is very useful in this metagame and Bullet Punch is great for revenge killing.
armarouge and ceruledge are? I've been looking here recently and saw that both had usage above the OU cutoff.From my admittedly limited experience, these two aren't that threatening and frail, so I'm surprised they got a lot of usage.
Side note, I really like using Scizor right now! Priority is very useful in this metagame and Bullet Punch is great for revenge killing.
They’ve felt pretty bad from what I’ve seen. Both run into any common offense team and get blown up while not doing a lot of damage in return. I can distinctly remember, LO Ceruledge Shadow Sneak couldn’t even hit 70 on my -1 Iron Valiant. In terms of fire and ghost competition, Ceruledge has to compete with stuff like Gholdengo, Chi-Yu, Gengar, and Dragapult for the slot a lot of the time. Armarouge is just a worse version of most special fires imo, it can’t do much. They might have a small niche, but I can’t see them being above like C when the VR rolls around.How good do you guys think
From my admittedly limited experience, these two aren't that threatening and frail, so I'm surprised they got a lot of usage.
Side note, I really like using Scizor right now! Priority is very useful in this metagame and Bullet Punch is great for revenge killing.
When people want cyclizar banned, what is the main reasoning? It isn't the strongest or most used pokemon in the meta, that's gholdengo. Gholdengo is warping the entire meta. But specifically cyclizar is not massively "broken" if your goal is just to win.
I don't know if people haven't realized it, but taking away toxic from literally every wall is why stuff like blissey isn't seeing more play. It can wall a lot of these threats. In addition, no teleport is massive. So the way the meta actually is right now is basically teams of offensive mons that are bulky with a hazard setter and maybe 1 or 2 walls. If you go watch 1500+ matches right now eventually someone gets something in and wins the game... and stuff like cyclizar, or even chi-yu, aren't the main way they're doing it.
So if you ban cyclizar, literally nothing changes. Banning chi-yu would change nothing. Maybe if you go down the entire list until only walls are good but there is no way to really change things unless you give back moves to walls who previously had them. Banning this stuff primarily only effects 1200-1300 rated games.
I don't know if people haven't realized it, but taking away toxic from literally every wall is why stuff like blissey isn't seeing more play. It can wall a lot of these threats. In addition, no teleport is massive. So the way the meta actually is right now is basically teams of offensive mons that are bulky with a hazard setter and maybe 1 or 2 walls. If you go watch 1500+ matches right now eventually someone gets something in and wins the game... and stuff like cyclizar, or even chi-yu, aren't the main way they're doing it.
So if you ban cyclizar, literally nothing changes. Banning chi-yu would change nothing. Maybe if you go down the entire list until only walls are good but there is no way to really change things unless you give back moves to walls who previously had them. Banning this stuff primarily only effects 1200-1300 rated games.
Dusk Mage Necrozma
formerly XenonHero126
Yeah Scizor's pretty good. I am overjoyed.How good do you guys think
From my admittedly limited experience, these two aren't that threatening and frail, so I'm surprised they got a lot of usage.
Side note, I really like using Scizor right now! Priority is very useful in this metagame and Bullet Punch is great for revenge killing.
Ceruledge is mediocre and this is new toy syndrome at work, but Armarouge has some merit as a Specs user. It's mostly outclassed by Chi-Yu though.
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