Oh God, not another Wobbuffet discussion!

Note that those are not real quotes (although they have some semblance to something I was saying). To clarify, those are fictional quotes. I think that is pretty low.

Why does he run Shoddy again?
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Hmm... maybe because I coded it (with bearzly, who isn't interested in administering it -- I wonder why, when you get insulted randomly for supporting testing!).

Edit: I probably shouldn't have entertained this, but fictional quotes and personal insults? - come on.
 
haha, I might as well hope aboard and see how the wobbuffet shit storm is going.

Colin, I'll give a reason why, people hate Wobbuffet. No reason as to why. You know how people say never say never? I'm saying Never.
 
i have only seen one wobb and i didnt have any trouble with him. he doesnt seem like much of a threat once you play with him. on paper he looks broken.

he is definately by far the most threatening lead but he doesnt really help late game. from my experiences with him thats how he worked.
 
<--- This one person with that name called* Qyyu loves how ppl play Shoddy and yet hate the creators....it's just like hating your mother. I mean if you hate the creator of shoddy then he didn't need to make it afterall and you ppl woulda been "wheres my pokemon simulator?, cause breeding and battling takes too long *sob**sob*"....your mom didn't need to have you either. Point is don't hate the creator, because it's kinda short sighted and a misunderstood reason for hatred. Also the reason shoddy is run by ppl like him is because he can program the right things for the shoddy to work, I can bet people in nintendo who program the games for pokemon absolutely HATE pokemon but they get paid big bucks so they'll do it anyways thats whats called LIFE so live with it!. <- Not to be so rude.

Maybe I should start doing some damage calcs on wobby ; ~ ;
 
ColinJF said:
Note that those are not real quotes (although they have some semblance to something I was saying). To clarify, those are fictional quotes. I think that is pretty low.

Hmm... maybe because I coded it (with bearzly, who isn't interested in administering it -- I wonder why, when you get insulted randomly for supporting testing!).

Edit: I probably shouldn't have entertained this, but fictional quotes and personal insults? - come on.
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Fictional quotes my ass! Others who were on and might be Smogon members to back me up were Tempus (Tempest? something like that), Mysterious Stallion, somebody whose name started with a "B" (maybe Brawly or Brawler or something? Could be way off on that one)

Your exact words were

"Colin: why is being uncounterable so damning"
"Colin: so should we ban Trapinch too"

They didn't necesarily come right after eahc other like that, I didn't feel a need to put my post of "Wobby is unbalancing...you might notice if you actually battled."
 
Excellent. Prove that your quotes aren't fiction by citing different fictional quotes. What I actually said is "(20:34:15) Colin: by the reasoning of people who repeatedly stress that about wobbufet you'd think trapinch is broken" and it was intended to be a joke. This is ridiculous. Here's a tip for making up Colin quotes: I don't usually captalise my sentences in a chat, or use periods.

I deleted my post so I could make it less vague. Sorry about that confusion.

Fortunately, most people have been more reasonable in handing Wobbuffet, and day one has generally been constructive--but we can't prove much with a one day test! I'm looking forward to the next couple of weeks.
 
Clear said:
I think I saw it in smogon, and even on netbattle that Wynaut got Wish as a NYPC moves.

I want you to know that Wobbuffet is more trouble than its worth. Saying to even unban Wobb is like saying unbanning Double Team. Even without wish, yes it has counters, but most of them are too specific and have a lasting effect on the metagame. Look at Deoxys-E, great! Now all Choice Scarfers are useless, enjoy getting stuck with one move at a time and getting your ass kicked before you can because Deoxys is the fastest piece of shit ever to rip popular CSers like Azelf, Chomp, Starmie, just to name a few, like tissue paper. Best of all, it can CHOOSE his moves with Life Orb! Who wouldn't want that?

You want a reason why it deserves to stay banned? Simple, cause it is fucking Wobbuffet. It will switch in to whoever he wants to kill that he can. And he CAN do it. There is no ifs, there is no buts. Explain how would Spiritomb counter Wobb when I don't switch in against it. Does the entire metagame need to run fucking U-turns, Shed Shit, Baton Pass, Taunt so we can accomidate dildo head here? Fuck no, we don't need that. The game is balanced as it is until Shoddy's "Revolution" went and fuck it all up.

If it is not broken, don't fix it.
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I didn't see Wish on the ADV Analysis for Wobbuffet, and if it was on netbattle, I'm damn sure that it would be an option on the moveset. Sorry, I still don't believe that at all if you only think you saw it on smogon. Tickle is useful though.

It's actually the only move that isn't mentioned at all on Wobbuffet's analysis in DP.

Y'know, Deoxys-S isn't the only thing that screwed over Choice Scarfers. Yanmega is far more dangerous at screwing over Choice Scarfers with Speed Boost.

I've already mentioned this about Wobbuffet, but PASSIVE DAMAGE messes with him majorly. He cannot by any means switch in on whoever he wants, because if he's taking so much damage on the switch, he can come in on who he wants, but only once, maybe twice. Then he's useless. What do you do if your set-up gets messed up by something? You basically just sacrificed an entire pokemon for a set-up that failed.

The game is NOT all that balanced, seriously. There's a huge gap in power in the top 20 and the rest of OU. Seriously, you have things like Abomasnow at the bottom of OU, while you have powerhouses like Garchomp & Salamence at the top. You can't seriously tell me that's not a huge gap.

Seriously, whoever did it, don't make fun of Colin just for finally testing something that has had debates like this one for months on end, without him making the program, you would have to rely on WiFi, and I'm going to guess that you don't want to do that. He does have to try to do what's fair, and not testing it will just continue with these kinds of debates, while an actual test will decide things permanently. I don't think it's unreasonable to give him props for finally deciding to shut the Wobbuffet debate up once and for all with some cold-hard data.
 
Posting something you did say doesn't mean you didn't say something else.

I am going to try and keep this from degenerating into a flame war, so i will say, please just ask one of the people I named (or tried to name)

And, Colin, why don't you post my direct reply to your question involving why being uncounterable was damning. It should have a timestamp relatively close to what you just posted, and say something along the lines of "If you played, you would know that being uncounterable is hugely damning" or something like that.

And sorry for capitalising the sentence and adding periods...its a natural instinct..I will remove them for your pride :)
 
Clear said:
You want a reason why it deserves to stay banned? Simple, cause it is fucking Wobbuffet. It will switch in to whoever he wants to kill that he can. And he CAN do it. There is no ifs, there is no buts. Explain how would Spiritomb counter Wobb when I don't switch in against it. Does the entire metagame need to run fucking U-turns, Shed Shit, Baton Pass, Taunt so we can accomidate dildo head here? Fuck no, we don't need that. The game is balanced as it is until Shoddy's "Revolution" went and fuck it all up.
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Just because he is "Wobbuffet" doesn't mean much, I can name my Caterpie Wobbuffet and suddenly it's UBER in what that sentence states.

BUT there is Taunt, U-Turn, Baton Pass even torment and switcheroo/trick, status moves, shed shell and critical hits. But theres no buts huh?

^ and no the entire metagame does not need to run taunt/u-turn/baton pass because truth be told a lot of ppl already use those moves, what you are saying is that those moves will be even more common than they already are? the pokemon that use taunt for a reason are great enough wobbuffet revenge counters. bulkydos, kristy, taunt ambipom, taunt weavile, u-turn swellow off to dusknoir, baton pass ninjask of to some slow poke w/e.

+ Temper temper I counted 5 insults, which makes me believe you can't keep a steady argument without being childish and using profane words.
 
Qyyu said:
Just because he is "Wobbuffet" doesn't mean much, I can name my Caterpie Wobbuffet and suddenly it's UBER in what that sentence states.

BUT there is Taunt, U-Turn, Baton Pass even torment and switcheroo/trick, status moves, shed shell and critical hits. But theres no buts huh?

^ and no the entire metagame does not need to run taunt/u-turn/baton pass because truth be told a lot of ppl already use those moves, what you are saying is that those moves will be even more common than they already are? the pokemon that use taunt for a reason are great enough wobbuffet revenge counters. bulkydos, kristy, taunt ambipom, taunt weavile, u-turn swellow off to dusknoir, baton pass ninjask of to some slow poke w/e.

+ Temper temper I counted 5 insults, which makes me believe you can't keep a steady argument without being childish and using profound words.
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Uh, 1 insult (to wobbuffet) and 4 expletives for emphasis hardly constitute any sort of "childish" behavior, and the word you're looking for is profane, not profound. Honestly, by pointing that out as a tagline, you come off as more childish than he does. (The irony of me having to point this out does not escape me)

Anyway on topic, same as DX-s, saying that wobby can be revenge killed != a good argument. U-turn is seen on a few pokemon, but hardly can be considered common; and while dry-baton passing is a viable strategy, it's uncommon as well. Taunt is really the only common countering move because of its overall effectiveness against walls, and not just wobby.

and your good ambipom with taunt needs to switch into wobby first.
 
Clear said:
I think I saw it in smogon, and even on netbattle that Wynaut got Wish as a NYPC moves.

I want you to know that Wobbuffet is more trouble than its worth. Saying to even unban Wobb is like saying unbanning Double Team. Even without wish, yes it has counters, but most of them are too specific and have a lasting effect on the metagame. Look at Deoxys-E, great! Now all Choice Scarfers are useless, enjoy getting stuck with one move at a time and getting your ass kicked before you can because Deoxys is the fastest piece of shit ever to rip popular CSers like Azelf, Chomp, Starmie, just to name a few, like tissue paper. Best of all, it can CHOOSE his moves with Life Orb! Who wouldn't want that?

You want a reason why it deserves to stay banned? Simple, cause it is fucking Wobbuffet. It will switch in to whoever he wants to kill that he can. And he CAN do it. There is no ifs, there is no buts. Explain how would Spiritomb counter Wobb when I don't switch in against it. Does the entire metagame need to run fucking U-turns, Shed Shit, Baton Pass, Taunt so we can accomidate dildo head here? Fuck no, we don't need that. The game is balanced as it is until Shoddy's "Revolution" went and fuck it all up.

If it is not broken, don't fix it.



From last page, got cut off by me, QFT.
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Pokemon, serious business.



Honestly, some people need to realize that Pokemon is just a pasttime. Its not like its your life or anything. So Wobbuffet is unbanned, big whoop. Go whine about it on a messageboard.

Pokemon is a fun game and yes, we're trying to be competive here, but might it not be healthy to try and not let it overtake our lives?
 
*looks at Lou Cypher* :s ...true true

*to Fennikusa*
ya so Ambipom's gonna come in on a revenge kill ofcourse
 
I don't think any sizable number of people are going to actually boycott Shoddybattle because of Wobbuffet. Every election we get celebrities saying "If Joe Quimby wins the election this year, I'm moving to Canada!", and after every election they are still here. It's easy to say you're going to do something, but in the end they often turn out to be empty threats.

I mean, come on, you've already ended your "boycott" of Shoddybattle because of Deoxys-S and if anything it's more firmly cemented in than ever.
 
Clear said:
I think I saw it in smogon, and even on netbattle that Wynaut got Wish as a NYPC moves.

I want you to know that Wobbuffet is more trouble than its worth. Saying to even unban Wobb is like saying unbanning Double Team. Even without wish, yes it has counters, but most of them are too specific and have a lasting effect on the metagame. Look at Deoxys-E, great! Now all Choice Scarfers are useless, enjoy getting stuck with one move at a time and getting your ass kicked before you can because Deoxys is the fastest piece of shit ever to rip popular CSers like Azelf, Chomp, Starmie, just to name a few, like tissue paper. Best of all, it can CHOOSE his moves with Life Orb! Who wouldn't want that?

You want a reason why it deserves to stay banned? Simple, cause it is fucking Wobbuffet. It will switch in to whoever he wants to kill that he can. And he CAN do it. There is no ifs, there is no buts. Explain how would Spiritomb counter Wobb when I don't switch in against it. Does the entire metagame need to run fucking U-turns, Shed Shit, Baton Pass, Taunt so we can accomidate dildo head here? Fuck no, we don't need that. The game is balanced as it is until Shoddy's "Revolution" went and fuck it all up.

If it is not broken, don't fix it.
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Yeah!

Progress is stupid and pointless.
 
How is it progress to introduce a Pokemon who drags the game back into the Stone Age? Seriously, there's no skill in Wobbufet. There's no sense of achievement. Both players just pick a move and cross their fingers.

I accept the want for testing, and it isn't bothering me THAT much. My standard team does have 4 Choice users though, and it's getting moderately annoying for the opponent to have constant free revenge kills, but...sure, we all love a good test.

As the analysis says, no self respecting player would use him though, so that should be considered when the weighted usage is looked at. Most the successful players have enough experience/dignity to avoid him, and it'll most likely be unexperienced players who use him.
 
I've only faced two Wobbuffet in my recent experience, one of which was a lead. Seriously, having a lead that can't deal with Wobby means that either you lose your lead or your opponent gets an opportunity to set up. Fortunately, several leads have a method of dealing with a lead Wobbuffet, including but are not limited to:

Gyarados - Taunt
Gengar - Hypnosis
Bronzong - Hypnosis
Tyranitar - Taunt (most that I've seen don't carry it, though)
Hippowdon - Roar
Breloom - Spore
Crobat - Hypnosis, U-turn
Ambipom - U-turn

I'm not counting the ones that can at least 2HKO it straight out, but the Wobby user could predict that and Counter/Coat accordingly.

The point is, IMO, Wobbuffet really isn't as gamebreaking as once thought. I'm not even seeing it in the teams that I at least 3-0, and the ones I do see are easily dealt with, though usually at the cost of one Pokemon. I probably just made a mistake or two dealing with them, however...
 
SubVersion said:
You totally missed the point. Wobb encoring gets you both a free switch and a free turn to stat-up. Simply switching Charizard into EQ gets me a free switch, but then my Charizard is sitting there vulnerable. Same goes for Smeargle.
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Using Wobb:

Turn 1 - Garchomp uses EQ, Wobb uses Endure
Turn 2 - Zard switches in, Garchomp uses EQ
Turn 3 - Counter switches in, Zard Subs
Turn 4 - Counter breaks Sub, Zard Drums


Without Wobb:

Turn 1 - CBChomp uses EQ, Suicune uses Rest
Turn 2 - Zard switches in, CBChomp uses EQ
Turn 3 - Counter switches in, Zard subs
Turn 4 - Counter breaks sub, Zard Drums
 
With Wobb, you can do it on more than choice'd ground attacks with the 'Zard example. You can encore and use that to allow more situations for that setup then hoping they use a choice'd attack your setup pokemon is immune to. It's possible without Wobb, but far easier.

Sorry for stealing your type of example but it makes it easier to show.

Using Wobb:

Turn 1 - Starmie uses Recover, Wobb uses Encore
Turn 2 - Zard switches in, Starmie uses Recover
Turn 3 - Counter switches in, Zard Subs
Turn 4 - Counter breaks Sub, Zard Drums


Without Wobb:

Turn 1 - Starmie uses Recover, Slowbro uses HP Electric
Turn 2 - Zard switches in, Starmie uses Recover
Turn 3 - Starmie Surfs, Zard dies

As you can see, Wobb simply allows you to setup that Zard on more than just choice'd ground attacks, making it far easier to get that Drum off.

Edit: I know that the without Wobb bit wouldn't possibly happen with decent battlers, it's a good example of what I'm saying though.
 
Well, as usual, I am going to bring up my anti-"counters" argument.

Who gives a flying fuck if something can't be countered? Let me answer this question for you: THE. ENTIRE. POPULATION. OF. BATTLERS. WHO. PLAY. COMPETITIVELY. ONLINE.

Why is this so? Because we freaking allow Garchomp, Tyranitar, Salamence and Lucario in our standard metagame! Do not even try and argue that there is a counter for any of those 4, because I guarantee to you that it does not exist. A counter is defined as something able to switch into any set and pose an immediate threat to that Pokemon. There is not 1 Pokemon for any of those 4 that fulfills both requirements.

So please, spare me the hypocritical "counters" argument. It is complete inconsistent crap. Find a better argument.

Hell, admitting that your arguments come from a subjective basis in defining "overcentralization" would get us much farther than this supposedly objective counters argument that is utilized only when convenient.

So, since I have so eloquently established that using this counter nonsense is hypocritical (unless, of course, you decide to be consistent and ban Garchomp, Tyranitar, Salamence and Lucario), do you guys (directed specifically at Clear and Hitit4three) have any solid basis for your positions?
 
AA said:
Most people worry about countering Wobbuffet a great deal. You are right; there are no Wobbuffet counters. However, that’s just thinking about Wobbuffet incorrectly. Wobbuffet takes up a team slot, and he must accomplish the worth of killing one of his enemy’s Pokemon if he wants to break even. It’s perfectly reasonable to prevent him from doing this. After all, he’s a rare Pokemon that is worth pretty much nothing when his HP is low. Just wearing him down with someone is likely enough, and you can play prediction games with him to stretch out how much value you get for your Pokemon. You can use the large number of Pokemon against which he simply cannot win to keep him out and to force him to come in at times at which he will gain the least. The solution isn’t to “counter” him; the solution is to just play some Pokemon to make sure he doesn’t get what he wants.
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If a Pokemon needs to take out at least one opponent to break even, then I don't think anything comes as close as Wobbuffet does at being guaranteed one of these kills. The other close things are Exploders, weaker trappers Duggy and Maggy and things like CounterSash. And all of these are poor immitations of what Wobbuffet does. They don't even have a choice most of the time on what to kill or even suicide on, Wobbuffet works against a very wide range of Pokemon.

The way I would use Wobbuffet is probably using it to take out one Pokemon I am having the most trouble with, either offensively or defensively. I would probably couple it with Dugtrio as well, so that anyone getting greedy hoping they can minimalize their loss by using a non-attacking move (thinking 1 free turn is always better than losing 1 Pokemon) finds that they end up in a worse scenario.
 
Yes, I've witnessed firsthand the deadly Wobbuffet-Dugtrio combination. I've had Spiritomb on all of my teams, but the Wobby lead use is making me want to lead with it.

You know what the Wobby lead threat has done? It's forcing leads to be able to deal with it. If the lead isn't Spiritomb, isn't a Flyer/Levitater, doesn't have Whirlwind/Roar or Taunt or Hypnosis/Spore or U-turn, or isn't holding a Shed Shell, it's susceptible to Wobby-Trio. It's as simple as the Wobbuffet using Encore and the player acting accordingly--whether be switching on a possible 2HKO, CounterCoating on a 3HKO, or switching in Dugtrio on a support move (most of them, anyway). With that combination, Wobby can possibly help KO 2 Pokemon (3 if it can somehow get in a Destiny Bond).

Fortunately, many skilled players should have a lead that can already deal with Wobby so that such a situation doesn't happen, but those that don't (I can personally attest to this) will have to adjust.

...Shoot, now I'm on the fence as to whether Wobby is too much for OU. I'll have to change my team and test it, first, to make sure it's not too much of a liability...
 
Aldaron said:
Well, as usual, I am going to bring up my anti-"counters" argument.

Who gives a flying fuck if something can't be countered? Let me answer this question for you: THE. ENTIRE. POPULATION. OF. BATTLERS. WHO. PLAY. COMPETITIVELY. ONLINE.

Why is this so? Because we freaking allow Garchomp, Tyranitar, Salamence and Lucario in our standard metagame! Do not even try and argue that there is a counter for any of those 4, because I guarantee to you that it does not exist. A counter is defined as something able to switch into any set and pose an immediate threat to that Pokemon. There is not 1 Pokemon for any of those 4 that fulfills both requirements.

So please, spare me the hypocritical "counters" argument. It is complete inconsistent crap. Find a better argument.

Hell, admitting that your arguments come from a subjective basis in defining "overcentralization" would get us much farther than this supposedly objective counters argument that is utilized only when convenient.

So, since I have so eloquently established that using this counter nonsense is hypocritical (unless, of course, you decide to be consistent and ban Garchomp, Tyranitar, Salamence and Lucario, ), do you guys (directed specifically at Clear and Hitit4three) have any solid basis for your positions?
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Agreeing, a lot of OU pokes can't be countered it depends on the set. Most of the 600 crew cant be countered, if not all of it.

Dragonite: The DD set can 2hko everything in OU, and it can even go special, and can go CB, and has to be walled by a steel type.
Tyranitar: Can use physical, and gliscor isnt a full counter because of ice beam.
Salamence: Hello there Mixmence
Metagross:Physical is hard to wall, and even then it can go special. :p
Garchomp:CB chomp has to be walled by a steel type during outrage
 
Aldaron said:
Well, as usual, I am going to bring up my anti-"counters" argument.

Who gives a flying fuck if something can't be countered? Let me answer this question for you: THE. ENTIRE. POPULATION. OF. BATTLERS. WHO. PLAY. COMPETITIVELY. ONLINE.

Why is this so? Because we freaking allow Garchomp, Tyranitar, Salamence and Lucario in our standard metagame! Do not even try and argue that there is a counter for any of those 4, because I guarantee to you that it does not exist. A counter is defined as something able to switch into any set and pose an immediate threat to that Pokemon. There is not 1 Pokemon for any of those 4 that fulfills both requirements.

I am going to go in depth in this argument, but I will defeat it.

Garchomp: Cress w/Ice Beam...Mamoswine with Ice Shard, Skarmory, Bronzong...Unless it has a Fire Blast, in which case Starmie becomes a counter also. Don't forget Pory2 too.

Mence: Bliss counters some variants, Cress does also, just a little bit of prediction dominates it, Bronzong can usually counter...

Lucario: What Lucario beats Spiritomb? I would look for others but I see no need...

Tyranitar: It comes in, you switch to Hitmontop...you take part of a 3HKO from EQ or Crunch (if Impish with the right EVs), and OHKO with Mach Punch if banded, otherwise 2HKO. If TTar Subs, you break Sub, take a hit, and send in Skarm/Hippo/LS Celebi/Lucario/I am just gonna stop now...


So please, spare me the hypocritical "counters" argument. It is complete inconsistent crap. Find a better argument.

Spare me the "there are no counters" argument. Its BS.

Hell, admitting that your arguments come from a subjective basis in defining "overcentralization" would get us much farther than this supposedly objective counters argument that is utilized only when convenient.

So, since I have so eloquently established that using this counter nonsense is hypocritical (unless, of course, you decide to be consistent and ban Garchomp, Tyranitar, Salamence and Lucario), do you guys (directed specifically at Clear and Hitit4three) have any solid basis for your positions?
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I do have a solid basis...Wobby's presence alone is forcing many pokes, leads especially, to either Uturn, Sleep it, or Taunt. Not every single lead has those options. Wobby, played correctly is almost always a guaranteed KO or setup because of its all-encompassing trapping abilities. Having played it, it neutralizes almost all the setup strategies, takes hits very well, and is, as I stated before, UN-counterable.
 
Wtf? Why are you and Blaziken_57 unable to understand a simple concept. The definition of a counter is something that can switch into the pokemon repeatedly, and pose immediate threat.

You, hitit4three, have managed to give me specific counters to sets, not the general threats that are Lucario, Salamence and Garchomp.

Cresselia is never a Garchomp counter; it is 2HKO'd by CBCHomp's Outrage.
Mamoswine is OHKO'd by Chain Chomp's Fire Blast.

Skarm and Bronzong are both dealing with the same issue of being 2HKO'd by Fire Blast.

Starmie? How is something that is OHKO'd by a CB Outrage a counter?

Same with PoryZ. There, none of your supposed "counters" can switch in. Therefore, it is not a counter. Get it? Or do I have to spell it out even more clearly?

As for mence, you said my part for me. "Bliss counters some variants" Well guess what Sherlock, that isn't all variants. Cresselia, for the last god damned time, is not a counter to Salamence, how many times do I have to spew out the numbers. Bronzong?!! Levitate Bronzong is 2HKO'd by Life Orb Fire Blast, and Heatproof Bronzong is 2HKO'd by Earthquake. Again, those aren't counters. Do you still not get it?

Lucario, lol, I'm glad you brought up Spiritomb, because it is the main example of why something that seems like a counter is not. Lucario Swords Dances on the switch. If you have max hp max def Spiritomb, Life Orb Crunch will do 58.591% max (meaning the possibility exists) each time for the 2HKO. However, you say Spiritomb can Will-o-wisp? So what? Will-o-wisp is 75% accurate, and your ability to counter Lucario is dependent on that 75% success rate. Therefore, it isn't a 100% counter. Again...no counters. Got anything else kid?

"Spare me the no counters argument. It is BS"

Ok, then give me some real counters. And this time, be sure to adhere to the definition of "counter." Or should I explain that to you one more time?
 
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