Even Pachirisu gotta take out the trash sometimes, and best way is to fling it at people
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Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations
- Thread starter Kurona
- Start date
I know iron sand is very different than normal sand, but even knowing that, I can't not complain that Sandy Shocks can't learn Sand Attack, Sand Tomb, or Scorching Sands. (Shore Up is sand related, but Sandy Shocks can't learn that either.) The only move with sand in its name Sandy Shocks can learn is Sandstorm, which is barely worth mentioning when pretty much every other Ground type also learns it.
I can confirm it my Hammer Girl still have it (but never used it because her stabs are always better, but when you don't have False Swipe, that helps)
So, this has moreso to do with stat distribution combined with the movepool, but here goes. In gen I, where Special doubled as attack and defense, most Pokémon with good Special stats are of the Special types, and vice versa, most physical type Pokémon have low-average Special stats. Most Rock, Ground, and Fighting types have fairly mediocre Special stats, regardless of how expansive their Special movepools are.
So here's Dugtrio. It has a Special of 70. The only Ground types with higher Special stats are Nidoking and Nidoqueen, at 75, with some of the broadest Special movepools in the game. Dugtrio's Attack is barely higher, at 80. Tauros, the #1 Pokémon in gen I PvP, also has 70 Special, and also packs a broad Special movepool.
Dugtrio learns no Special moves whatsoever. If I'm not mistaken, Dugtrio has the highest Special of any Pokémon that learns no Special moves. That it had such a high Special stat for a Ground type that had no Special moves at all is quite an oddity. 70 was pretty good for a physical type in gen I.
So here's Dugtrio. It has a Special of 70. The only Ground types with higher Special stats are Nidoking and Nidoqueen, at 75, with some of the broadest Special movepools in the game. Dugtrio's Attack is barely higher, at 80. Tauros, the #1 Pokémon in gen I PvP, also has 70 Special, and also packs a broad Special movepool.
Dugtrio learns no Special moves whatsoever. If I'm not mistaken, Dugtrio has the highest Special of any Pokémon that learns no Special moves. That it had such a high Special stat for a Ground type that had no Special moves at all is quite an oddity. 70 was pretty good for a physical type in gen I.
If you look at the Pokemon who can't learn Substitute, you'll find the usual crowd of weak Pokemon with hyper-limited movepools.
And also Quaxly and Quaxwell, for some reason.
And also Quaxly and Quaxwell, for some reason.
they're obsessed with being stars but by quaquaval they realize the real star move, is to know when to sub out.
Squirrels like to dig through trash, can be an easy meal for them.
There's also Park Se-jun's Pachirisu. "How does that relate to this"? Because his Pachirisu helped him take out the trash.
Could be a case of its name being a misnomer. The people who saw Sandy Shocks mistook the "sandy" material attached to the tips of its magnet as sand, but they're more likely iron filings like what makes the beard of Probopass and Alolan Golem (and none of them learn sand moves either). It probably should be more accurately be called "Filament Shocks".
First let's note that Skitter Smack was one of the Moves introduced in SwSh's Isle or Armor DLC. What this means is that, before SV, the only way to have this move is through Move Tutor. I think this plays a big part as, unless there's a really good reason, you're probably not going to see many older Pokemon getting this move added to their moveset, if any at all. Newer Pokemon have a greater chance, and we see that with what Pokemon learn it now (though it's odd only Nymble get it via Breeding as there's a few Bug-types who got it via Move Tutor in SwSh that are in SV; probably something they'll fix when they add HOME connectivity).
Second, Skitter Smack's Japanese name is "Creeping Strike". While there's probably a few other Pokemon you can say could have this, for the Tinkatink family specifically it's not out-of-place. The line's whole story is that they're bullied as a Tinkatink by having their metal "hammers" eaten by ore-eaters (so it would be better for them to creep around and take opportunistic strikes to get their meals and not noticed by others), when they become Tinkatuffs they start attacking Steel-type Pokemon to gather scrap metal to make their hammers stronger (so now they're creeping around waiting for an opportunistic strike on Steel-types to gather scrap metal), and finally as a Tinkaton they're on full revenge mode hunting their former tormentors and taking whatever it feels like (so now its creeping around to stalk its targets before striking them).
Their goal for Dugtrio was super fast with decent Attack but fragile (but still usable). As you noted, Special also counted as Special Defense, and being a Ground-type ALL of Dugtrio's weaknesses were on the Special side: Grass, Water, & Ice. So it made sense to buff up its Special so that it could possibly take at least one attack form its weakness as well as taking a neutral Physical attack.
Something to support this hypothesis is that when they did the Physical-Special split, it was Dugtrio's Special Defense that kept the 70 and its Special Attack made a low 50.
Checking their Dex, Quaxly's thing is that its a neat freak ("It likes to keep things tidy and is prone to overthinking things"), and Quaxwell's is that it trains and competes with its legs to improve its dance moves.
Substitute's Japanese name is "Scapegoat"... sorta. In Japanese its "Migawari" and, from what I've read, "Substitute" is actually a bit more accurate than "Scapegoat". Eitherway, the idea is that a "Migawari" is something which replaces or stands-in for another person.
There could also be another layer to this. Apparently the Quaxly family isn't native to Paldea, their species migrated to Paldea long ago. Part of Quaxwell's training involves observing movements of people & Pokemon from other regions. This all pays off with Quaquaval performing striking dances (and kicks) from far-off regions.
So Quaxly is a neat freak and Quaxwell trains very hard through observation, thus they're more hands-on and likely wouldn't want to have something else sub in for them. And by the time they're Quaquaval they're a master of their craft so don't mind sending in a Substitute if they feel they need a break.
Man, those were the days when 70 was still a workable offensive stat. Now people are saying a 100 offensive stat is "too low" for OU (and this gen's UU). Power creep.
Also, back in Gen 1 you either had an incredibly wide movepool or nothing at all besides your STAB and Normal-type moves. A lot of Bug-types didn't even have STAB lol.
To smack Corviknight, of course.
Skitter Smack's Japanese name refers to a more insect-like method of creeping and crawling, though not necessarily something that only insects can do. It's not really the kind of stalking prey style of creeping. Kind of a problem with Bulbapedia's translations as they're very limited in explanation, and sometimes straight up wrong. Like Hisuian Typhlosion's signature move, Infernal Parade, is Hyakki Yakou in JP, the "Night Parade of 100 Demons". While the folklore reference is explained in the trivia section, the translation provided at the top of the page is just "Infernal Parade". I'd recommend checking a Japanese to English dictionary like Jisho to find out more about the names, can be pretty handy.
Anyway, regarding Dugtrio, at 35 base HP I don't think it was ever intended to tank SE hits. Anything with 110+ Special nets a guaranteed OHKO off 95+ BP STAB SE moves, assuming max stat EXP. At 0 stat EXP, just 73 Special is required, of the Pokemon that are of Dugtrio's weakness types, only Poliwrath, Kingler, and Kabutops fall short of 73 Special (even Parasect has 80 Special, though Mega Drain is its best Grass move). Might also point out that Tauros' Special also became its Special Defense in gen II as well, though with Tauros that could very well have just been a nerf (though it probably prefers having 40 Special Attack compared to 40 Special Defense).
Certainly, with no Special moves Dugtrio's Special stat could only possibly have been used defensively, a trait that is as far as I can tell wholly unique to Dugtrio among fully evolved Pokémon in gen I (aside from Ditto), but the 35 base HP undercuts the value of this purpose too much to have any actual meaning at just 70. I mean, these are the same developers that gave Hitmonchan all of the elemental punches (otherwise signatures for Magmar/Electabuzz/Jynx) and a Special stat of just 35 (in gen I, only Onix has worse Special bulk than the Hitmons, 35 Special ties with Mankey and Machop!), I genuinely do not think Dugtrio was given such a relatively high Special stat to tank SE hits.
Anyway, regarding Dugtrio, at 35 base HP I don't think it was ever intended to tank SE hits. Anything with 110+ Special nets a guaranteed OHKO off 95+ BP STAB SE moves, assuming max stat EXP. At 0 stat EXP, just 73 Special is required, of the Pokemon that are of Dugtrio's weakness types, only Poliwrath, Kingler, and Kabutops fall short of 73 Special (even Parasect has 80 Special, though Mega Drain is its best Grass move). Might also point out that Tauros' Special also became its Special Defense in gen II as well, though with Tauros that could very well have just been a nerf (though it probably prefers having 40 Special Attack compared to 40 Special Defense).
Certainly, with no Special moves Dugtrio's Special stat could only possibly have been used defensively, a trait that is as far as I can tell wholly unique to Dugtrio among fully evolved Pokémon in gen I (aside from Ditto), but the 35 base HP undercuts the value of this purpose too much to have any actual meaning at just 70. I mean, these are the same developers that gave Hitmonchan all of the elemental punches (otherwise signatures for Magmar/Electabuzz/Jynx) and a Special stat of just 35 (in gen I, only Onix has worse Special bulk than the Hitmons, 35 Special ties with Mankey and Machop!), I genuinely do not think Dugtrio was given such a relatively high Special stat to tank SE hits.
Well originally I was going to suggest it's Special stat was just treated as a dump stat. Of course, the problem with that idea is that, if they were just going to "dump" all those points, why not just make Dugtrio's BST lower by like 20 points so it matches its Defense stat. That's when I thought maybe they gave it the extra 20 on Special just to make up for all its Special SE weaknesses.
I feel it's more likely that the developers did not even realize Dugtrio had no Special attacks. A lot of stuff in gen I just doesn't make any sense from a gameplay balance standpoint, like Rock Throw having 65% accuracy and the terrible movepools for many Pokémon.
I realized a handful of other Pokémon in gen I have no Special moves, which includes Pidgeot, also sitting at 70 Special. That's as high as it goes. Here's the list.
Pidgeot: 70
Dugtrio: 70
Fearow: 61
Dodrio: 60
Farfetch'd: 58
Sandslash: 55
Scyther: 55
Pinsir: 55
Ditto: 48
Hitmonlee: 35
Onix: 30
Think that's a comprehensive list. As expected, most of these Special stats are quite mediocre.
I realized a handful of other Pokémon in gen I have no Special moves, which includes Pidgeot, also sitting at 70 Special. That's as high as it goes. Here's the list.
Pidgeot: 70
Dugtrio: 70
Fearow: 61
Dodrio: 60
Farfetch'd: 58
Sandslash: 55
Scyther: 55
Pinsir: 55
Ditto: 48
Hitmonlee: 35
Onix: 30
Think that's a comprehensive list. As expected, most of these Special stats are quite mediocre.
It's probably a combination of "dump stat" and "we need to give these Pokemon some defense against Special moves". A very Gen I issue with the Special stat playing double duty.
Would be interesting to see how these Pokemon's Special stats looked after the Special split. Working now so can't really dedicate to it atm, I'll do it later.
Pidgeot, Fearow, Dodrio, Ditto are the same
Farfetch'd, Scyther, Pinsir, Onix kept it as Sp A and got a higher SpDef
Dugtrio, Sandslash has a lower SpA and keeps it as Sp Def
Hitmonlee also kept it as Sp A and got an obscene Special Defense out of it. Last time we talked about it someone brought it up it was probably because they wanted the Hitmons to have a higher BST to reflect being evolved and +110 accomplished that.
Think it has more to do with the Hitmons being excessively underpowered in gen I, having a BST tied with Parasect and Marowak. Mr. Mime had an even lower BST for example (340 vs. 345), and post-split ended up having a higher BST due to getting +120 Special Defense, despite not getting an evolution until gen IV.
A lot of Pokémon have high special defense in Gen 2, like Snorlax and Heracross. I think it's to buff some Gen 1 Pokémon, and to make the Fighting-types less weak to Psychic.
If such a thing exists, I'd be interested in reading a breakdown of whether there's any consistency as to how Gen I Pokemon had their Special stats broken down into SpAtk/SpDef. Some, like Dodrio and Dragonite, were unchanged (60 became 60/60 and 100 became 100/100 respectively) while others, like Flareon and Raichu, split the difference relatively evenly (110 turned into 85/110 and 90 turned into 90/80 respectively) and others still, like Cloyster and Victreebel, saw a much more dramatic split (85 turned into 85/45 and 100 turned into 100/60 respectively)*.
I agree it almost certainly was done with balance in mind but I'm just curious if anyone has spotted further patterns or trends as I'm not sure if there's any rule of thumb here. Fighting-types in general did benefit largely from the shift - Poliwrath, Machamp, and the Hitmons all get considerable SpDef increases. Lots of Special-typed Pokemon lost out but several Psychics were net beneficiaries too - Mr Mime and Jynx both gained offensive power while their SpDef stayed the same. RBY isn't really my specialist subject so as I say, interested to read more about this.
*in fairness, if Cloyster had 85 in both Special stats its BST would have been 565
I don't think there was any "balance" in mind at the time (after all there was no competitive scene yet and it was still "just a kid game") but rather the case of identity.
They likely looked at every of the first 151 and asked "Should this be a offensive, defensive, bit of both?"
Es Snorlax and Tauros definitely did not fit a "strong special attacker" idea but expecially snorlax definitely looked like being able to take a hit, so got high s.defense and low s.atk. Mr Mime and Jinx were already designed as Special attackers, so got high offense with also solid defense etc.
They likely looked at every of the first 151 and asked "Should this be a offensive, defensive, bit of both?"
Es Snorlax and Tauros definitely did not fit a "strong special attacker" idea but expecially snorlax definitely looked like being able to take a hit, so got high s.defense and low s.atk. Mr Mime and Jinx were already designed as Special attackers, so got high offense with also solid defense etc.
There probably was some degree of balancing involved since Dark and Steel were implemented partly to balance Psychic due to it being intentionally overpowered in gen I. Giving most Fighting types higher Special Defense could certainly have been another step in trying to balance Psychic types. I know I saw somewhere here on this site that Snorlax being super busted for PvP due to the combination of Curse, Rest, and high Special Defense making it very tanky and difficult to KO, was indeed mentioned by one of the developers internally, which was dismissed due to Snorlax being weak to Fighting types and having average Defense (failing to recognize that Curse addresses that issue). Even all the way back then, game balance was something on the radar, even if the developers weren't very good at it (still aren't, but at least there's improvement).
This is a terrible way of looking at it. Yeah I'm sure identity had a lot to do with it (yeah these pokemon are kind of bulky, yeah these pokemon need more stats but not attack, etc) but they absolutely had forms of balance in mind. It was in its infancy but they literally did reference the tournaments they did have for Gen 2's balancing. I'm pretty sure that was said either in interviews or some of the emails floating around.
Gamefreak's approach to competitive was slow & steady, and full of jank even to this day, but it was not 0 once we get outside of gen 1. To cast aside "balance" entirely is just silly.
Well what I meant is mostly no "competitive" balance.
There was no actual competitive PvP in gen 1, in fact considering how old the games are and on what platform they are I don't think anything other than just friend battles existed in first place. Any attempt of "balance" was likely done for single player gameplay purposes and not for competitive standpoint. (In fact I doubt there was much thought put in the PvP scenario other than just friend vs friend battles)
Hence why I said they focused on identity rather than the definition of "balance" we throw around nowadays. After all, gen 2 already had other mechanics introduced specifically to balance certain things, like dark and steel basically only existing as a nerf to psychic types.
There literally was competitive PvP in Gen 1 though. There were official tournaments and everything.