Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[1LDK]

Now that I think of it, Court Change seems like a fucking god send for HO to remove hazards while keeping momentum AND countering Gholdengo

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
Tera Type: Fire/Idk really
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Court Change
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick
- Gunk Shot/Zen Headbutt

I think this could be the most consistent set, right now if you look at OU, most things are either weak to fire/fighting or neutral, the things that cannot be broken by those 2 can be cripled by gunk shot, Zen also means you can lure tusk, Iron hands, iron moth, ape and pex, but gunk shot gives you a better shot against Valiant, Moon, Ting Lu, Volcarona and all the dragons

 

[awyp]

For those talking about suspecting Ghold. It is annoying, yes, but how is this hazard stacking metagame any different from other metagames with very limited hazard control like Gen 5 NU or Gen 4 OU?

Like I said before I am a Gholdengo apologist, I don't think it's broken but it's such a controlling Pokémon. Its still a metagame in it's infancy, so with conjunction of a bunch of Pokémon learning SR and spikes (like Chomp) people are going to go with what they know works which is setting up entry hazard for chip damage and unless you want a metagame where everyone's eventually going to be running boots, I think that's literally where we are heading. It's such a dominating Pokémon in a sense where it forces you to change your set / tera because you're expecting it 40-45% of the time on the ladder.

I know nothing about Gen 5 NU can you please let me know what you're referring to?

Also Gen 4 OU is very limiting in Entry Hazard removal but you either running Tentacruel, Starmie, Forry (or some other uncommon Rapid Spinner) on every team if you're running balanced or stall.

Gholdengo, is the most used Pokémon in Gen 9 OU currently, and it's usage won't go down. I don't think it's broken, but like I said in the prior post it's already adjusting itself in the Metagame by running Air-Balloon because it's being used as a entry hazard removal denier for the most common Rapid Spinners who are all running EQ (Tusk and Tread).

 

[Magcargo]

For those talking about suspecting Ghold. It is annoying, yes, but how is this hazard stacking metagame any different from other metagames with very limited hazard control like Gen 5 NU or Gen 4 OU?

The hazard game in BW NU was pretty different from what it is now. We have a greater number of hazard prevention methods now, but also the leads we have are much stronger & can get muiltiple layers of different hazards up more reliably. Also, the power level in the current metagame is much higher due to threats in general being much stronger, which also makes hazards stronger. I don't think gen 5 NU is very comparable to the current meta at all.

 

[Dubbidub]

Cinderace has a good match up against Gholdengo and has court change. Of course, Gholdy is immune to it but doesn't seem to smart to send it in against cinder ace. Gholdengo is faster with the scarf but cinderace can survive one shadow blast.

 

[TrainerGeist]

Cinderace has a good match up against Gholdengo and has court change. Of course, Gholdy is immune to it but doesn't seem to smart to send it in against cinder ace. Gholdengo is faster with the scarf but cinderace can survive one shadow blast.

Good as Gold does not block status moves that target all Pokémon (i.e. Haze), Court Change will work like normal.

 

[Dubbidub]

Good as Gold does not block status moves that target all Pokémon (i.e. Haze), Court Change will work like normal.

Court change is normal type though. Isn't ghost typing immune to it?

 

[Ehmcee]

Court change is normal type though. Isn't ghost typing immune to it?

Once again, court change does not actually target Gholdengo, so it's immunity does not affect Court Change

 

[Ehmcee]

Also, it really seems like Game Freak will be dropping some new mons every so often until the coming of Pokemon Home with Charizard and now Cinderace, which is kind of interesting and a first in OU history. It feels sorta nice to get a tiny shakeup in the metagame every two weeks or so.
(although it might end up being insignificant if they're bad mons like zard)

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

can somebody explain why we have tiering action in the first place when tier change such as Cinderace cam come out of nowhere? Like doesn't it invalidate Spike Stacking by itself?

 

[alephgalactus]

For those talking about suspecting Ghold. It is annoying, yes, but how is this hazard stacking metagame any different from other metagames with very limited hazard control like Gen 5 NU or Gen 4 OU?

Because all of those metas, while their hazard control was very limited, actually had hazard control. Gholdengo completely prevents hazard removal while it’s on the field if your name isn’t Maushold (or, soon, Cinderace). It invalidates a fairly major part of gameplay by simply existing. Also, Spikes got a massive distribution bump this gen—not only do Garchomp and the Sometimes-OU-Water-Ground-Type Twins get it, but there are a bunch of viable new setters like Meowscarada, Orthworm, Clodsire, Glimmora the King of Hazards, and the insanely bulky Ting-Lu.

 

[Bold School]

The future addition of Cinderace brings into question what other Meta shaking consequences new additions could have, aside from the obvious broken Tera things everyone has been worrying about. If Cinderace counters hazard stack, does Heatran counter Chi-Yu enough to have it stay? I can't help but feel almost everything we could ban from here on out would need to be suspected again once Home is implemented.

The biggest possible exceptions to this being Shed Tail and Rage Fist, which I believe are likely a bigger problem than the mons that use them. Regardless of what I believe, there are at least separate arguments for those moves being too much or uncompetitive. But nearly every pokemon besides the obvious quick ban type stuff (like Flutter Mane) is likely gonna need to be looked at again if we ban it now. And I'm not even getting into the Tera yet, which I'm guessing won't be resolved in a single suspect.

 

[ryangregory78]

If Cinderace counters hazard stack, does Heatran counter Chi-Yu enough to have it stay?

Nope. If I remember correctly, Heatran gets 2HKO'd by Specs Dark Pulse. I might be wrong, but I distinctly remember seeing that on this thread and am too lazy to look up the calc for myself.

 

[alephgalactus]

If Cinderace counters hazard stack, does Heatran counter Chi-Yu enough to have it stay? I can't help but feel almost everything we could ban from here on out would need to be suspected again once Home is implemented.

Nah, Chi-Yu and Gholdengo need to go and stay out no matter what happens in Home. Dark Pulse on Chi-Yu beats Heatran and all you need to do after a Court Change is set hazards once more and then they can’t be removed with it, only swapped back and forth. What I do think will not need to be suspected anymore, though, is Grimmsnarl. Court Change can steal Screens, which is absolute poison against the Screens HO teams running around right now.

 

[ryangregory78]

Here's some ridiculous heat I've been meaning to test:

Tauros-Paldea-Water (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Close Combat
- Raging Bull
- Smart Strike

I admittedly may have miscalculated how Beads Of Ruin work, but if I've done it right, this guy avoids the 2HKO from anything Chi-Yu can throw at it, and KO in return with CC. Aqua Jet is there for priority, Raging Bull is a fuck you to screens teams, and Smart Strike hits Grimmsnarl and Hatterene for slightly harder than anything else. Anyone got any thoughts on this?

Honestly the fact that this is what we're bringing to the table imo just goes to show how dumb Chi-Yu and Screens are right now.

Other than that, I really like this idea. Provides counterplay for two strong playstyles (Sun and Screens HO) and brings a solid offensive presence with it. I just feel like this would be a little tough to fit over something like Ting-Lu if you can't already set hazards with something else (I spam the shit out of Ting-Lu for this reason), but if you can fit hazards somewhere else and you really fucking need a sturdy Chi-Yu stop, then I'm all for it.

 

[ryangregory78]

Nah, Chi-Yu and Gholdengo need to go and stay out no matter what happens in Home. Dark Pulse on Chi-Yu beats Heatran and all you need to do after a Court Change is set hazards once more and then they can’t be removed with it, only swapped back and forth. What I do think will not need to be suspected anymore, though, is Grimmsnarl. Court Change can steal Screens, which is absolute poison against the Screens HO teams running around right now.

Even considering that Court Change can steal screens, wouldn't that just make Cinderace mandatory on a ton of teams? I might be missing something here - and I probably am - but everyone spamming Cinderace as a lone viable recourse against Screens bullshit still seems pretty unhealthy. Maybe without Cyclizar around Grimm teams would be worse off, but insofar as the lizard sticks around, I don't see how Grimmsnarl's presence can be at all conducive for a healthy meta, even with Court Change.

 

[taziathegreat]

I wouldn’t consider cinderace mandatory anymore mandatory than great tusk or glimmora. Most of his value is gonna come from being the second best if not best hazards control in the game.

 

[Bold School]

Nah, Chi-Yu and Gholdengo need to go and stay out no matter what happens in Home. Dark Pulse on Chi-Yu beats Heatran and all you need to do after a Court Change is set hazards once more and then they can’t be removed with it, only swapped back and forth. What I do think will not need to be suspected anymore, though, is Grimmsnarl. Court Change can steal Screens, which is absolute poison against the Screens HO teams running around right now.

The Calcs say that Modest Specs Chi-Yu is about a 3HKO on specially defensive Heatran with Leftovers. Less with Assault Vest. This obviously doesn't account for things like Tera, but Modest Specs is pretty heavy handed to run even for Chi-Yu. It would likely be either Timid or Scarf, which no longer guarantees a 3HKO on the Leftovers set. (Though Timid Specs is still over 99%.) The bigger problem is a lack of reliable recovery. So you'd either rely a lot on not good enough passive recovery turns from Protect or Assault Vest.

I don't think having to run Assault Vest Heatran because of Chi-Yu is healthy for the metagame, but it doesn't necesarrily mean Heatran loses to Dark Pulse. And beyond that, just having a viable Flash Fire pokemon allows you to play mind games. This isn't to say Chi-Yu wouldn't still be too busted anyway. I'm just saying it would likely need to be reexamined.

I know we disagree on Gholdengo. However, hazards on both sides doesn't sound like it would necesarrily be any better for hazard stack teams. Nor do I think you need to make it so free for them to set hazards again. The good thing about Cinderace, though, is it might prevent Corv from being overcentralizing after a hypothetical Gholdengo ban.

I might be missing something here - and I probably am - but everyone spamming Cinderace as a lone viable recourse against Screens bullshit still seems pretty unhealthy.

Well, it would be the same thing with Corviknight if Gholdengo is banned. People will spam it as the main Defogger in the tier and perhaps the best pivot before Home.

 

[awyp]

I wouldn’t consider cinderace mandatory anymore mandatory than great tusk or glimmora. Most of his value is gonna come from being the second best if not best hazards control in the game.

A lot of that depends on what will happen once Cinderace joins OU. I think it'll be a great addition and a top 10 Pokémon in usage. Court Change will be a good way to get around the dominance of Gholdengo.

I guess my question would be is Libero getting the same nerf that Protean got this generation which the type being changed stays on the first move the Pokémon uses until the mon switches out? (Just confirmed: It does)

 

[Finchinator]

The way I see it is there are a number of Pokemon that will need to go after the Tera suspect. Some hinge on its result and others do not.

Chi-Yu and Cyclizar are pretty broken regardless of how you chop it, in my opinion. Chi-Yu may be one of the most broken things we will see this generation honestly. Annihilape and Espathra are arguably more Tera dependent thoguh, especially the latter. Gholdengo is in discussions, too, but not as pressing as the others to me.

More on these topics later as it is pretty moot mid-suspect.

 

[Magcargo]

The year is 20XX. The agency has taken over Smogon. Chi-Yu has completely fallen off the metagame, as people now run Houndoom in its place due to its ability to switch into opposing Chi-Yu's Fire STAB better. Court Change Cinderace completely knocks Grimmsnarl and Glimmora out of the meta . Heavy Duty Boots becomes the item of choice on every Pokemon, as Golden Joe's dominance prevents hazards from ever being cleared. Boots Regenerator Pokemon such as Toxapex, Slowking, and Cyclizar destroy the meta, as they endlessly switch for thousands of turns to PP stall the opponent. In the metagame's darkest hour, a Pokemon with base 130 base Special Attack, Freeze Dry, and Calm Mind arises from the chaos to completely 6-0 these boots Regenerator teams that have a stranglehold on the metagame.

Dystopian fanfiction aside, I believe Cinderace will be a good addition to the metagame, as Court Change will help punish some of the dominant strategies like Dual Screens. However, I don't think Cinderace will be a catch all answer to these teams due to its questionable MUs vs some of the screens abusers like Dragonite and Great Tusk. Cinderace also got some other cool buffs this gen, like Swords Dance, though Protean's nerf will make these sets a bit less potent than they could have been last gen. In general, I don't think it will bother too much with setup sets since its Hazard clearing duties will be on higher demand this gen + Pokemon like Dondozo and Skeledirge are bad MUs for it.

 

[658Greninja]

Because all of those metas, while their hazard control was very limited, actually had hazard control. Gholdengo completely prevents hazard removal while it’s on the field if your name isn’t Maushold (or, soon, Cinderace). It invalidates a fairly major part of gameplay by simply existing. Also, Spikes got a massive distribution bump this gen—not only do Garchomp and the Sometimes-OU-Water-Ground-Type Twins get it, but there are a bunch of viable new setters like Meowscarada, Orthworm, Clodsire, Glimmora the King of Hazards, and the insanely bulky Ting-Lu.

Lets run down the options through each gen.

DDP OU’s best spinner is Starmie who has been declining its duties in spinning for more offensive sets like Specs. It also isn’t as popular as it once was due to the meta shifting to fatter builds which is also why Starmie has been making use of offensive sets to blow past them. Forretress was used as an alternative to Skarm that could both spin and boom. However the opportunity cost of not using Skarm’s longevity and whirlwind made it an uncommon choice. Tentacruel sucks and Hitmontop is only on niche stall teams.

The spin options in BW NU are utterly atrocious. Only decent spinner being Wartortle while the rest such as Torkoal and Armaldo are held back by their weakness to rocks. With how prominent ghosts are, it was difficult to spin even when given the opportunity. Also consider both Skarm and Garbodor are the best Pokemon in their respective tiers due to their ability to set up multiple hazards.

Now compare it to SV OU. The four spinners are Tusks, Treads, Quaval, and Torkoal. Quaval rarely ever uses spin though it can 1v1 Ghold with max SpD. Torkoal while exclusive to sun, also is a solid spinner despite its rock weakness due to its ability to threaten Ghold. Treads is a great spinner due to its speed and typing. Being able to 1v1 non-F-Blast Ghold due to resisting Make it Rain. Tusks is an amazing spinner and a top mon on its own right. The spinners from the aforementioned gens are not popular choices, however Tusks is an easily splashable mon that is considered Top 5 or Top 10 in the tier. As a spinner, it threatens OHKOS/2HKOS on the top spinblockers, not to mention it has a solid mu against the top spikers, especially Ting-Lu who risks eating a CC/BP, or losing its Lefties. Chomp can be pursued with the occasional Ice Spinner which also hits Tera Flying Moon and Gambit, as well as Dnite. There is other factors that makes hazards less volitile, Boots, which is applicable to both offensive and defensive threats, and Hatterene who is a strong Pokemon on its own right.

The tools we have are better overall against spikes than what we had in the aforementioned generations. It would be inaccurate to say our options are lesser just cause Corv couldn’t defog on it.

 

[escarlata]

Lets run down the options through each gen.

DDP OU’s best spinner is Starmie who has been declining its duties in spinning for more offensive sets like Specs. It also isn’t as popular as it once was due to the meta shifting to fatter builds which is also why Starmie has been making use of offensive sets to blow past them. Forretress was used as an alternative to Skarm that could both spin and boom. However the opportunity cost of not using Skarm’s longevity and whirlwind made it an uncommon choice. Tentacruel sucks and Hitmontop is only on niche stall teams.

The spin options in BW NU are utterly atrocious. Only decent spinner being Wartortle while the rest such as Torkoal and Armaldo are held back by their weakness to rocks. With how prominent ghosts are, it was difficult to spin even when given the opportunity. Also consider both Skarm and Garbodor are the best Pokemon in their respective tiers due to their ability to set up multiple hazards.

Now compare it to SV OU. The four spinners are Tusks, Treads, Quaval, and Torkoal. Quaval rarely ever uses spin though it can 1v1 Ghold with max SpD. Torkoal while exclusive to sun, also is a solid spinner despite its rock weakness due to its ability to threaten Ghold. Treads is a great spinner due to its speed and typing. Being able to 1v1 non-F-Blast Ghold due to resisting Make it Rain. Tusks is an amazing spinner and a top mon on its own right. The spinners from the aforementioned gens are not popular choices, however Tusks is an easily splashable mon that is considered Top 5 or Top 10 in the tier. As a spinner, it threatens OHKOS/2HKOS on the top spinblockers, not to mention it has a solid mu against the top spikers, especially Ting-Lu who risks eating a CC/BP, or losing its Lefties. Chomp can be pursued with the occasional Ice Spinner which also hits Tera Flying Moon and Gambit, as well as Dnite. There is other factors that makes hazards less volitile, Boots, which is applicable to both offensive and defensive threats, and Hatterene who is a strong Pokemon on its own right.

The tools we have are better overall against spikes than what we had in the aforementioned generations. It would be inaccurate to say our options are lesser just cause Corv couldn’t defog on it.

This.
And it's not like the quality of spinblockers in those gens are worse than Gholdengo in any way either.
Trying to remove hazards against DPP OU Rotom-A was practically impossible, especiallly when the strongest move most spinners have for hitting it was Assurance/Payback, which is entirely conditional on you keeping your own hazards up, while hoping Rotom-A was not running a bulkier build, and them not reading the attack.
BW NU had Haunter, who threatened everything in the tier for big damage, and Golurk, which was also punched holes in everything if you let it come in on a free Spin.
And even BW OU back when I played was something similar too. FerroCent used to be this core that denied all hazard removal, resisted all of each other's weaknesses and set up Spikes for free, especially under permanent rain. But the weather shitshow of BW OU is it's own story altogether.

Meanwhile, in SV OU, all the good spinners have a way of threatening Gholdengo, and with moves that are easily spammable to begin with. It can be argued that outside of blocking Defog Corviknight exactly, Gholdengo is inferior in spinblocking to Annihilape and possibly even Dragapult in some cases. Gholdengo does not even answer Corviknight that reliably either unless you are running Annihilape as well, because U-turn on the projected Gholdengo switch is just free momentum.

Hazards are strong this gen, and it is going to remain strong even after Gholdengo is banned, because people will just find other ways to take advantage of the fact that Corviknight is the only Defogger. (In fact, there are even cases now where you just want to switch Annihilape into a Defog to win off of Defiant and free Bulk Up as Corviknight switches out)

 

[Moyashi]

Meanwhile, in SV OU, all the good spinners have a way of threatening Gholdengo, and with moves that are easily spammable to begin with. It can be argued that outside of blocking Defog Corviknight exactly, Gholdengo is inferior in spinblocking to Annihilape and possibly even Dragapult in some cases.

While there is an argument about whether or not Ghold is overbearing, suggesting it inferior to both Ape and even Pult as a spinblocker is rather silly (the latter especially since both tusk and treads can beat Pult like they can Ghold). Ape can punish defog due to defiant, but a good player could still play around this (such as paoring Corv with an Unaware user to blank the boosts). Ghold isn't just a good hazard removal blocker becausw it blocks defog, but also because it uses its switch in opportunities to pose a big threat itself. It s a very customizable pokemon.

In thw first place cherry picking metagames like BW NU or DPP OU doesn't really help when we also have examples of metagames where hazards were too powerful and thus something was done about it. Gholdengo would be more palatable with more defoggers, but right now its arguable that its stranglehold on the hazard game is only exacerbating the impact of already dangerous pokemon. Though it can alsonbe argued that broken pokemon leaving will alleviate that same impact so we'll have to see.

 

[VannAccessible]

I tried Trick Room HO so you don’t have to

So moving aside from ban discussions, I was trying to meet reqs with a Trick Room team because I hate myself, started 11-1, and then the next game I ran into Choice Specs Tera Dark Chi-Yu who just one shotted all my TR setters including flinching through my Colbur Berry Bronzong because of course it does.

Has anyone had success with Trick Room in SV? From my recent experience, we do have a number of good TR abusers, but severely lacking in the setter department at the moment. Here's a breakdown

Trick Room setters:
The structure I like to use for TR HO in NatDex is a suicide lead like Diancie, a bulky mid-game setter like Hatterene/Cress, and an third who is self-sufficient like Reuniclus or Magearna.
For the suicide lead, without Diancie, I find that TR doesn't have any good hazard setter that does not auto lose to Ghost/Dark.
I had to use SDef Colbur Berry Bronzong as a budget Diancie, but did you know Bronzong lost Explosion? Steel Beam still exists but it's way less reliable if your opponent knows what they are doing. Btw run Heatproof, so you don't lose to Chi-Yu Flamethrower. You don't care about taking Earthquakes nearly as much because you want to Steel Beam yourself out of there.
Klefki is an option that doesn't lose to Ghost/Dark, gets Spikes, and has a way to suicide with Steel Beam, but ironically feels a bit too bulky to get down to 50% on turn 3 reliably against some teams. Fairy Lock is a pretty neat tech too, which all but guarentees your sweepersa free turn to do whatever they like.
Scream Tail is pretty nice, but simillarly doesn't have a way to pivot out after TR. And the Eject Button build you can run on normal builds don't work here because you get bounced out before you get TR up. I have tried Perish Song into SR into Trick Room, which actually does give you a free turn to set up, but it feels a bit too slow to pull off at times.
For the bulky midgame setter, we are a lot more fortunate
Hatterene is obviously really solid as always, especially when she can Tera Dark in a pinch, which is something I have adapted after losing to the Chi-yu in the abstract. Definitely the premium option here. Untauntable is a neat bonus, but every other TR user can just runs Mental Herb anyway. The real cherry on the cake is actually Healing Wish, because you get to suicide, boost Kingambit to full, and give him another stack of SO on top of everything.
Slowking is kinda cool with a pivot move, but Chilly Reception's lack of negative priority kinda hurts because it turns into a fast switch under TR. Mental Herb + Regenerator unironically feels better than Oblivious even though the latter blocks Taunt. Future Sight misses timing.
Everything else just feels baaaaaad.
For the self-sufficient setter, we are again severely lacking,
Mimikyu being the only usable one who doesn't feel like I'm going through hoops, but even then it is severely lacking in terms of power. Being a physical attacker especially hurts because it overlaps with many of good TR abusers we have this gen. I've also tried using him as a suicide lead with Curse to kill himself when he's low, but Disguise kinda makes it unreliable. Overall, I don't like him that much this gen.
Not exactly what one think about when one says bulky, or slow, except it kinda works actually, either as this slot, or the previous slot. Reaches 324/251/265 bulk which can actually be respectable, hits pretty hard even uninvested and most importantly gets very powerful utility moves such as Memento and WoW.
As for special attacking TR setters, Room Service Armarouge and Iron Valiant are surprisingly viable here. Their base speed are pretty high, but that actually gives them the flexibility to attack out of TR, with Room Service fixing their high speed inside TR. They have enough firepower to function without an item, and the most important thing they offer is that they are able to take down sturdy physical walls like Dondozo.

Trick Room attackers:
We have a lot of great abusers this gen, but the unfortunate part is that the best ones are all physical attackers. Doesn't matter, because the physical attackers we have right now just break everything if you can get TR up. Kingambit and Iron Hands are the ones I used the most, and the main reason why I even consider TR to be viable at the moment.
The good:
This is the biggest auto-include as an TR abuser imo. Everyone has faced this thing outside of TR, but it's a completely different beast inside of it. SO is especially synergistic with the suicide heavy nature of the playstyle, and you just get to Kowtow Cleave through everything without worrying about Sucker Punch mindgames. The Ghost/Dark resist + Tera Flying/Water also provides extremely valuable resistance to the biggest breakers in the tier. And as usually, if you manage to weaken the opponent enough, or manage to get an SD up, you can win outside of TR with it as well.
If anyone has faced Conkeldurr or Mega Heracross under TR in past gens, Iron Hands is Conkeldurr, but with the option of Swords Dance. Basically nothing is tanking any hits from this if you manage to get an SD off, and you can Tera Flying after TR wears out to continue getting free kills as they wishfuly send in their Garchomp, hoping to nail you with EQ. Or you can just start attacking without needing SD thanks to Booster Energy because CC + EQ/Ice Punch + Thunder Punch already hits everything anyway.
Choice Specs Freeze Dry I mean Choice Specs Hyper Voice
Tanky Belly Drum abusers with access to priority outside of TR. Cetitan feels more reliable at the moment thanks to Ice Shard being better for killing things after TR ends, but Azumarill is slightly better matched into Chi-Yu and Annihilape. If running a Belly Drummer specifically, refrain from using Slowking because as mentioned above, Chilly Reception is a fast switch under TR.
Slow enough with a Brave nature, and just hits really hard off the bat. As a Fighting type, does stack some weakness with Iron Hands as a TR sweeper. I personally find Iron Hands to be better here generally because I like having Electric type coverage, but does have the advantage of not stacking Ground weakness with Kingambit.
The bad:
Weak STAB moves, no priority, lack coverage. Just a bad Kingambit. I guess we can say that his position is very sus. (He's not Ground weak so he's good rrrrriiiiight???)
Specs Eruption sounds good until you realise it is a hazard meta. Setting up sun for Tusk feels good until you realise TR would have ended before you got to Tusk. Setting up sun is actually a detriment because it gets your entire team killed by Roaring Moon and Chi-Yu once TR ends. Don't use this in TR, this isn't VGC.
dont
The ugly:
These are pretty good ngl, but they have some weird intricacies to make them work.. Try at your own risk.
Magnezone really fell off this gen because all the best Steel types either beat him or can just switch out of him, but Analytic with Tera Steel is surprisingly good in TR. Flash Cannon outright 2HKOs 240/0 Iron Treads for switching in, and pretty much every thing else because apparently we don't have 4x resists at the moment.
Strictly worse than Iron Hands imo, but definitely viable (another Ground weakness stacked btw; why is everyone ground weak?)
I love and hate the fact that Tera Bug Flash Fire BU is a thing. But in TR, I think Tera Fighting/Fairy is better as it puts you in a better position against the usual threats to TR like Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao and Dragapult. Taunt is my favorite move in the game, which he can actually fit in a moveslot.(Oh hey, another natural Ground weakness)
Never tried him, I just put him here because he's very ugly.

Conclusion:
Trick Room is very fun, and I'm gonna try to meet reqs with it, even if the inherent problems of the strategy makes it a very big challenge. But it's fun who cares. Setters are weaker than ever because the top of the meta is dominated by powerful Ghost/Dark attackers who often just OHKO all your setters, but the abusers are also more insane than ever, especially Kingambit and Iron Hands (did I mention they are weak to Ground?). I want my last dance with TR before Tera's inevitable ban/limitations bring the stacking Ghost/Dark/Ground weakness back. Also I hate stupid fish. Give me back Diancie and Uxie.
pokepaste of current version if you hate yourself too (seek help)

Edit: I forgot to mention that the best TR abusers are weak to Ground.

TR is my favorite playstyle and be been fooling around with it here and there. Honestly, I’ve found it does great in this hazard heavy meta, by virtue of Sash Hatterene being an automatically potent suicide lead. TR also does great in this HO heavy meta that lacks dedicated stall teams, provided you address the two glaring issues on offense teams of Substitutes from Shed Tail (free against a TR set) and screens. Personally I’ve found Loaded Dice Techicain Breloom, Sylveon, Toxitricity, Brick Break Kingsgambit all to be potent breakers able that circumvent these issues. Curse Red Card Mimikyu is also an invaluable mid game setter because it cannot be OHKOed through Disguise without either Mold Breaker or a very powerful multi-hit move, which essentially allows it to screw over 95% of offensive set up mons even if behind a Sub, use its nice dual STABs on squishy set up mons, and maintain momentum against defensive mons with Curse.

Having said that, the real pain in the ass for Trick Room is Revivial Blessing teams. TR is sooooo focused on maintaining momentum and making the most out of every single TR turn to break. If your opponent can outlast your offensive plays with RB, and just keep reviving their best threats by outspeeding your slow team outside TR, it becomes a nigh unwinnable mu.

 

[escarlata]

While there is an argument about whether or not Ghold is overbearing, suggesting it inferior to both Ape and even Pult as a spinblocker is rather silly (the latter especially since both tusk and treads can beat Pult like they can Ghold). Ape can punish defog due to defiant, but a good player could still play around this (such as paoring Corv with an Unaware user to blank the boosts). Ghold isn't just a good hazard removal blocker becausw it blocks defog, but also because it uses its switch in opportunities to pose a big threat itself. It s a very customizable pokemon.

In thw first place cherry picking metagames like BW NU or DPP OU doesn't really help when we also have examples of metagames where hazards were too powerful and thus something was done about it. Gholdengo would be more palatable with more defoggers, but right now its arguable that its stranglehold on the hazard game is only exacerbating the impact of already dangerous pokemon. Though it can alsonbe argued that broken pokemon leaving will alleviate that same impact so we'll have to see.

Gholdengo is better than Ape at preventing exactly just Defog from exactly just Corviknight, but that does not make it a better spinblocker. If you are facing down a spinner (not a Defogger mind you), there is almost no scenario where Gholdengo is the best switch in to them unless you have the right item, right Tera (this is big because Tera is getting suspected now) and right moveset (and right RNG because Focus Miss).

If you see a Tusk or Treads on the opponent's field, Ape is a better switch in 8 out of 10 times, because it doesn't die to EQ, Knock Off or rely on Balloon being intact.
If you see Torkoal on the opponent's field, Ape or Dragapult is a better switch in almost 9 out of 10 times because they can immediately put pressure back.
Even if you see Corviknight on the opponent's field, Ape is a better switch in half the time because you can get a free Raging Fist boost on U-turn.
The whole reason why Gholdengo + Ape double Ghost core is a thing is because Gholdengo is not sufficient in preventing hazard removal in the face of all the excellent spinners we have at the moment.

I'm not saying that nothing should be done about hazards, but Gholdengo is just not the root of the problem. Hazard stacking is around to stay even if Gholdengo and Annihilape get banned. The reason the hazard/spinner/spinblocker dynamic was brought up in the first place is not to say we can live without hazard removal. There is no cherry picking, every meta before Gen 6 lacked guaranteed hazard removal. Those metas specifically listed were ones where hazards were almost impossible to get rid of, but hazards did not completely take over the meta because people learned to better pressure the hazard setters themselves. Heck, DP OU and BW OU had hazards that were almost impossible to remove, and people were complaining that stall was too strong.

Gholdengo's presence in the metagame prevents Corviknight from blindly clicking Defog, and Doxphans from blindly clicking Rapid Spins without repercussions, and that's a good thing because it forces people to actually respect the hazard setters. Why should one be allowed to blindly click Defog to remove hazards for free when them being up is the result of them being unable to exert any pressure on the hazard setters for 3-5 turns? We have better tools for dealing with hazards than ever, use them instead of whining that we can't just click a button to reset 3-5 turns of lost advantage.