Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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I think people are downplaying how kind of forced people are to run covert cloak just to dodge salt cure's chip because in reality that's its main attraction. Denying secondary effects is nice but those are primarily based on chance. What other secondary effect is it being used for that is a guaranteed proc? It's a good item and would still see use but it's kind of hinting at an issue when it's usage is currently tied to mentions of a Garg answer that doesn't include raw power.
 
I think people are downplaying how kind of forced people are to run covert cloak just to dodge salt cure's chip because in reality that's its main attraction. Denying secondary effects is nice but those are primarily based on chance. What other secondary effect is it being used for that is a guaranteed proc? It's a good item and would still see use but it's kind of hinting at an issue when it's usage is currently tied to mentions of a Garg answer that doesn't include raw power.
Dont fall into the coping. Covert Cloak without Salt Cure is never gonna be used over boots/leftovers/anything else. It needs some very prevalent and strong move that i can cancel to be actually usable. Nobody is using covert cloak bc they dont wanna get flinched by iron head or get a sp drop from shadow ball.

Covert Cloak is only used bc it singlehandely invalidates the biggest threat Garganacl can have, the other advantages are just nice extras.
 
If Chi-Yu has a million number of fans I am one of them. If Chi-Yu has ten fans I am one of them. If Chi-Yu has no fans, that means I am no more on the earth. If world is against Chi-Yu, I am against the world. I love Chi-Yu till my last breath.
If Chi-Yu has a million number of haters I am one of them. If Chi-Yu has ten haters I am one of them. If Chi-Yu has no haters, that means I am no more on the earth. If Chi-Yu isn't quickbanned, I am against Smogon. I hate Chi-Yu till my last breath.
 
In a way, I'm a little disappointed that "Chi-Yu is broken and needs to be banned" is a near-universal opinion; I was preparing to make an argument that even if it isn't broken, it needs to be banned anyway. Basically, the issue is that the best way to deal with Chi-Yu is to guess which move it's going to use and switch into something that's bulky and resists that particular move – and there aren't many/any sufficiently bulky playable Pokémon that resist all its moves other than Chi-Yu itself, but there are lots of playable Pokémon that resist one of them. So Chi-Yu's presence adds a lot of randomness to the tier simply by creating an effective 50-50 every time it switches in. Adding to that is the way it can sometimes randomly win situations it was supposed to lose due to Dark Pulse flinches (I'm not talking about Pokémon matchups here, but the combination of the matchup and the moves that the players actually chose). The Scarf set is one of the better sets and really amplifies these issues.

:Dragonite: Suspect test, but low priority. Tera Normal ESpeed is strong, and creates limits in the builder on most team styles. Its wide movepool also makes counterplay feel shaky. However, Dragonite hates helmets and hates unawares, which are both on most teams. It's also quite weak to status; pokemon like Rotom-W and Skeledirge are very good at living one hit and putting on a wisp, which will stop its Espeeds from achieving all that much. The other Dragonite problem is that it's much weaker if it has to switch out; it can't keep multiscale up in this meta, and when it pops, its previously considerable bulk becomes very mediocre. Still, even with the counterplay, it requires a huge amount of respect in both the builder and in gameplay, and I'm still not sure if the counterplay that exists is enough.
Having tested Dragonite a lot myself, it should be noted that burning Dragonite doesn't necessarily deal with it. When someone switches a non-choiced Rotom-W into my Dragonite, I've learned to simply just Dragon Dance, then Dragon Dance another time as it switches or Volt Switches out (seeing as it can't generally deal meaningful damage with any of its moves). A +3 burned Dragonite sweeps almost as well as a +1 unburned Dragonite, and has the advantage that burning it isn't going to stop the sweep any more.

Rocky Helmet can often be dealt with by moves such as Earthquake, unless the Helmet-wielder is Ground-immune. However, I agree that Unaware is a pretty good way of stopping a Dragonite sweep. Dragonite also has severe 4MSS – no matter how you build it, there will be some Pokémon it struggles with. One potential way in which it's a bit noncompetitive is that playing with it, and playing against it, both require quite a bit of guessing of the opponent's set, e.g. Great Tusk without Ice Spinner is setup fodder for Dragonite, but Great Tusk with Ice Spinner beats it easily, so you really have no idea whether staying in or switching out is better in any particular matchup.

Additionally, I suspect that Dragonite is unlikely to be a problem if Shed Tail either gets banned, or becomes nonviable as a consequence of a Cyclizar ban – it likes having a Sub passed to it far too much (especially given how Multiscale + Sub interact, and because a Substitute often buys time for Leftovers to repair your Multiscale), but its 4MSS makes it difficult to spare the moveslot. Thus, losing Shed Tail makes Dragonite significantly weaker, and I think it's unlikely to be even close to broken without that support available.
 

memesketch

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New day new radar, pretty interesting slate this time

:chi-yu: - QB
I've talked about my thoughts on the fish before. Send this Nemo-looking thing to Ubers and I will not be finding it.

:annihilape: - QB / Suspect
Without a doubt, some form of tiering action needs to come to a mon that nearly invalidates every playstyle from balance to hard stall. Very few mons could even think about beating Chi-Yu to the "hardest to prep for in builder" honor, but Ape is just that for such teams. In general, it's just so hard to kill, so hard to wall. So impossibly inconvenient to play around because you can play too passive and lose games just by anticipating it coming in and farming Rage Fist boosts. Certainly feels uncompetitive in that sense. At the same time, the meta has trended offensive since the generation began, and offense has better means to deal with Ape, so the situation's not entirely cut and dried. Overall, wouldn't mind a QB but would also endorse a suspect if more innovations to keep it in check surface in the short term.

:cyclizar: - Suspect
Another mon that forces offensive pressure and overwhelmingly takes advantage of passive teams. In a generation with an unprecedented amount of power creep, Shed Tail is the tool that just might push offense to the edge. One could argue that it comes down to the mons that receive the Shed Tail being broken, sure, but the truth is giving mons as frail as Espathra and Chien-Pao such consistent setup opportunities to make them as threatening as they are is something that can only be accomplished with the mechanic. It gives Shed Tail offense a huge potential edge against every other playstyle, including other variants of offense. And really it comes down to Cyclizar - the utility of Knock Off, Taunt, and Rapid Spin, that Speed, and the longevity to pass multiple subs per game, it's less about Shed Tail (worm moment) and more about a mon with the perfect kit to abuse it. Still, the mon itself can be pressured easily enough that the Pokemon it brings in likely won't keep its sub up against an alert player. In the same sense, Cyclizar can be individually useless at times, and that equally affects the use of Shed Tail, so it's more worthy of a suspect than of either extreme option.

:gholdengo: - No Action
Gholdengo may be this meta's jack-of-all-trades and one of its best mons, but it's not broken. As threatening as Trick and Nasty Plot sets can be to defensive teams, they have common workarounds to it, from Clodsire blanking NP to catch-all checks like Ting-Lu to Scarf (and Tspike) absorbers like Amoonguss and Pex. The Gholdengo hazard stack teams that used to be so prominent now find themselves more restricted in a meta that has tightly adapted to them with Hatterene, Iron Treads, and specialized Great Tusk sets being some of the most common forms of hazard control. Besides, there's plenty of merit to what's been said about Gholdengo being predictable once you determine its set. And it's very straightforward to revenge kill or force out, as it has to burn its team's Tera to not get instantly gobsmacked by the vast majority of offensive threats in this meta. Overall, Gholdengo is a prime case of meta adaptation. Still great at what it does, but more of an integral cog in the tier than something that sticks out as purely unhealthy.

:chien-pao: - Suspect
Chien-Pao's presence is almost underrated at this point compared to the other huge threats in this meta, but with its sheer power and Speed, how few consistent answers it has, and its insane Tera potential, definitely worthy of a suspect down the road in my opinion.

:espathra: - No Action / Suspect
Espathra's fate depends entirely on Cyclizar's. As it is now, it's one of those mons that can be really annoying if it finds a chance to get up and going and can just steal a game by itself. You need a dedicated answer to it, which can, unfortunately, require defensive Tera, and that can leave the team totally exposed to another threat. If Cyclizar stays, I can honestly see either possibility, where it's either seen as either too unmanageable and suspected or seen as requiring too much support and being too predictable to work consistently.

:garganacl: - No Action / Suspect
I can definitely see where the arguments for this thing being too good come in. Salt Cure forces damage onto almost everything and flips most of the mon's bad matchups, and it has so much defensive coverage and versatility with its ability and the Tera types it can choose from. I think there's still plenty of room to adapt to it though, especially if Chi-Yu goes - that should open up more room both for Garg's defensive answers and for other special wallbreakers that match up better into it than Chi-Yu does. And as is, it's far from unmanageable, as its base typing is pretty pitiful and its need to Tera to function properly is restrictive for its team. Plus, it's really vulnerable to hazards and repeated hits and has to Recover often, which drains a lot of momentum vs offense. I personally don't think it's suspect-worthy at the moment, but I very much understand those who do.

:dragonite: - No Action
Always like seeing Dragonite flourish, but not sure why it's on this list. It's fairly easy to handle defensively, as it's usually vulnerable to Great Tusk and Salt Cure and either gets walled by Corviknight or can't recover. Weak to status, helpless against Dondozo and Skeledirge. Great mon with incredible strengths, but its weaknesses are widespread and prominent enough that it doesn't really approach broken or meta-defining.
 
Garg is an amazing Pokémon, easily an A+ in viability, maybe in low S even. It’s been compared a bit to toxapex, but I think a more apt comparison would be bulky Heatran. The way salt cure forces progress is very similar to (and arguably better than) magma storm, coupled commonly with stealth rock for added pressure and protect for longevity. The main thing setting Garg apart is recover, which is a huge boon. The Mon is crazy good, but I don’t think it’s over bearing. It’s an incredible glue mon and a defensive behemoth, all while not being very passive, which I think is actually a healthy thing for this tier at the moment, as it helps build powerful defensive cores that we desperately need in OU right now.
 

Scarfire

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Im open to be told otherwise but is the idea that a mon forces a few defensive mons (amoong, pex, dengo, corv, take your pick) to run a slightly less convenient item in turn for completely blocking one of the best mons in the tier, really all that bad? Is that the basis for saying it should have action against it? Its not like Garg doesnt give value to the tier, even beyond chiyu leaving, there is many fires in the tier that are good to resist, and its a rocker that isnt a goddamn ground type for once. I'd understand if it was drastically changing how teams function, or causing u to run shitmons to check it, but is running an item on a select few mons that are already very open to being customizable, all that bad?

Maybe I just dont fully get the Garg mald yet, its frustrated me on the ladder many few times like others, but im still in the camp of "wait and see" when it comes to it.
 
Nobody is using covert cloak bc they dont wanna get flinched by iron head or get a sp drop from shadow ball.

Covert Cloak is only used bc it singlehandely invalidates the biggest threat Garganacl can have, the other advantages are just nice extras.
I mean, Shield Dust's a pretty great ability. A lot of mons would love to have it, and giving up regen in exchange for it really isn't that bad of a deal. Leftovers are 23 years old. It's about damn time there's a competitive defensive option outside of hazard blocking.

Maybe I just dont fully get the Garg mald yet, its frustrated me on the ladder many few times like others, but im still in the camp of "wait and see" when it comes to it.
If it helps, most of the posting is appreciation that something like Garg exists, followed by a few people thinking that Covert Cloak is somehow different than Heavy-Duty Boots as far as being a necessary evil.

Because that's really all it is: Just like some Pokémon have to run HDB over an offensive option, some will want to run Covert Cloak over Leftovers. And, as an added bonus? Cloak is a lot better in the absence of Garganacl than HDB is in the absence of hazards!
 

YNM

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Talking about Covert Cloak, does it not ignore Clear Smog's stat reset? Cause it did reset my Gholdengo's stats. Anyways, I've been using Covert Cloak lately both with Gholdengo and Dondozo, and I gotta say it's pretty darn good. Not only is it good for Salt Cure, but it prevents stat drops, burns, paras (even from Nuzzle), flinches and if Scald was still widespread it would be simply fantastic. So overall Imma give it a solid 8/10, would cover again.
 
:Hydreigon:
Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn

I think this guy's stocks are going to go up if the Goldfish gets banned. No where near as strong, but it still has the Dark STAB to put Gholdengo in a bind so its friend Corviknight can Defog and has some nice side benefits too, like being a bit less hazard weak, being able to U-Turn out of bad MUs like against Clodsire, and having perfect defensive synergy w/ Gholdengo. Also Tera Steel w/ Levitate is pretty great, lets it emergency Check many Pokemon. It can use a few other tera types too, like Tera Fire to make its Flamethrower stronger. I've been using Hydreigon for a bit, and while it's no Chi-Yu, it still does a good job of pressuring Pokemon such as Gholdengo, Rotom-W, Great Tusks, etc. w/ its high damage output. Def a threat worth keeping on the radar.
 
:Hydreigon:
Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn

I think this guy's stocks are going to go up if the Goldfish gets banned. No where near as strong, but it still has the Dark STAB to put Gholdengo in a bind so its friend Corviknight can Defog and has some nice side benefits too, like being a bit less hazard weak, being able to U-Turn out of bad MUs like against Clodsire, and having perfect defensive synergy w/ Gholdengo. Also Tera Steel w/ Levitate is pretty great, lets it emergency Check many Pokemon. It can use a few other tera types too, like Tera Fire to make its Flamethrower stronger. I've been using Hydreigon for a bit, and while it's no Chi-Yu, it still does a good job of pressuring Pokemon such as Gholdengo, Rotom-W, Great Tusks, etc. w/ its high damage output. Def a threat worth keeping on the radar.
Worth keeping on the radar, you say?
FlxYMEYXkAA1psg.jpeg
 
I think Shed Tail in terms of tiering action should be thought of as a mechanic which can be isolated and banned on its own right with other such examples being Shadow Tag, Arena Trap and most comparably, Baton Pass. However, when it comes to Rage Fist, it would be better to just ban Ahnihilape since the move isn't in itself like a mechanic and is just a very powerful ghost type move which isn't broken on all its users
 
I think Shed Tail in terms of tiering action should be thought of as a mechanic which can be isolated and banned on its own right with other such examples being Shadow Tag, Arena Trap and most comparably, Baton Pass. However, when it comes to Rage Fist, it would be better to just ban Ahnihilape since the move isn't in itself like a mechanic and is just a very powerful ghost type move which isn't broken on all its users
The problem is, all evidence shows that Orthworm, the other shed tail user, sucks even with it. This is different to tag\trap, which were so good ou teams would run NFEs just to access them.
 
I really enjoy Garg because of the amount of lure sets it allows from a building perspective. Garg teams often rely on it massively as a blanket check to various attackers, and simplying adding substitute can turn Garg from a counter into setup fodder and force the opponent into very difficult positions. Substitute has tons of benefits outside of blocking salt cure, such as blocking status etc etc.

Here's two high ladder replays of using sub Skeledirge in order to boost up on Garg teams
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1764497962-4cqf7ta6vxo3dkzrk2owae5v1sywn6lpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1764247390-8iavz9o7kkup4nkcbeyy5n3ihm6z4zzpw
Using Substitute on Skeledirge? Really?

Does that honestly sound like a healthy effect on the metagame?

The fact that you were running Substitute on a damn Skeledirge of all Pokemon should say enough. Your team also had a Covert Cloak Toxapex on top of that. Speaking about overkill! It warped your team-building to a stupendous degree and I actually find those replays to prove the exact opposite of whatever point you were trying to make.

One can argue Gholdengo does the same thing, but there's a massive difference between being forced to run Heavy-Duty Boots and Covert Cloak. Heavy-Duty Boots is a god-tier item that people literally wanted banned last gen. No one is running Covert Cloak if Garganacl gets banned.
 
One can argue Gholdengo does the same thing, but there's a massive difference between being forced to run Heavy-Duty Boots and Covert Cloak. Heavy-Duty Boots is a god-tier item that people literally wanted banned last gen. No one is running Covert Cloak if Garganacl gets banned.
I'd still be considering covert cloak if nuzzle hatterene sticks around as a thing people are running
 
Using Substitute on Skeledirge? Really?

Does that honestly sound like a healthy effect on the metagame?

The fact that you were running Substitute on a damn Skeledirge of all Pokemon should say enough. Your team also had a Covert Cloak Toxapex on top of that. Speaking about overkill! It warped your team-building to a stupendous degree and I actually find those replays to prove the exact opposite of whatever point you were trying to make.

One can argue Gholdengo does the same thing, but there's a massive difference between being forced to run Heavy-Duty Boots and Covert Cloak. Heavy-Duty Boots is a god-tier item that people literally wanted banned last gen. No one is running Covert Cloak if Garganacl gets banned.
Pex is good enough to run practically any item, Toxapex probably played more turns itemless than with one in the past few generations due it being the #1 go to Knock Off switch in on any team with it. Pex ran shit like Payapa Berry, the idea that Covert Cloak is somehow way more egregious than that is frankly hilarious. Substitute is just generally a good move to sit on things with Skeledirge like Blissey, Toxapex, Clodsire etc. There's been countless Sub + Setup users over the years, the idea that this is only for Garganacle is incredibly stupid. I guess we should ban Gliscor too because people used Worry Seed Ferrothorn as a way to deal with it, and Worry Seed has little to no application outside that. Every elite caliber mon is going to require you to dedicate something extra to it, the idea that a single item or move is just too much of an opportunity cost to counter something is sad.
 
Using Substitute on Skeledirge? Really?

Does that honestly sound like a healthy effect on the metagame?
..yes?

Skeledirge is pretty famous for only really needing one or two attacking moves. Torch / Wisp / Slack Off / X is a pretty standard set, and this is just replacing Wisp with Substitute. If Wisp is healthy, but Substitute -> Torch Song is not, i'm not sure what that says about the meta.

It feels like a lot of people are approaching Covert Cloak from the position that it's a bad item, when the reality is that it's simply new and underexplored. Should players not be trying to figure out what helps them win more games, or something?
 
Pex is good enough to run practically any item, Toxapex probably played more turns itemless than with one in the past few generations due it being the #1 go to Knock Off switch in on any team with it. Pex ran shit like Payapa Berry, the idea that Covert Cloak is somehow way more egregious than that is frankly hilarious. Substitute is just generally a good move to sit on things with Skeledirge like Blissey, Toxapex, Clodsire etc. There's been countless Sub + Setup users over the years, the idea that this is only for Garganacle is incredibly stupid. I guess we should ban Gliscor too because people used Worry Seed Ferrothorn as a way to deal with it, and Worry Seed has little to no application outside that. Every elite caliber mon is going to require you to dedicate something extra to it, the idea that a single item or move is just too much of an opportunity cost to counter something is sad.
I am new to this game so I did some research on Payapa Berry Toxapex and the most I found was its use for Z-Psychic Volcarona and Tapu Lele. I think there's a big difference between this tech and being forced to run Covert Cloak just to deal with 1 Pokemon. Garganacl has no counter-play outside of Covert Cloak and slapping Substitute on half of your offensive Pokemon. There is plenty of counter-play to Z-Psychic Volcarona outside of Payapa Berry Toxapex. Those builds just run it because they can't find a more solid answer / revenge killer. Also the Worry Seed Ferrothorn example is bad. Gliscor actually had splashable answers that weren't garbage like M-Latias, Keldeo, Kyurem, Weavile, or like any strong Water- / Ice-type attack in general.... Gliscor also doesn't have Salt Cure. I think the main disconnect here is I don't think you realize how ridiculous this move is. If Gliscor had Salt Cure, best believe that thing would be banned.

Agree to disagree I guess. I will personally be voting ban whenever the Garganacl suspect test goes up.
 
The idea that there is zero counterplay outside Covert Cloak or Sub is just a complete falsehood. There's plenty of strong teams that have had tons of success on the ladder that have neither of those. Specifically with Covert Cloak, you basically completely invalidate Gargancal. To continue with Volcarona example, you could easily raw psychic once early game to pop the berry, and then break through the Toxapex later on. There's absolutely nothing a Garganacl can do to Salt Cure something with Covert Cloak.
 

Mimikyu Stardust

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Alright, ive played this meta for a long while and i really think we should suspect test :garganacl: Garg soon. Ive read the radar post and i would like to put my opinion here.

(Please ignore the bad grammar I am writing this on my phone while at the train station)

Lets list off some of the calcs immediately, Garganacl can be run either defensively (usually on protect sets), specially (usually on iron defense set) or even mixed depending on the team

252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 236-278 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 176-210 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Garganacl: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garganacl: 240-283 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 236-282 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Garganacl: 158-188 (39.1 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 308-366 (76.2 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 4 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 170-204 (42 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 248-294 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 148-176 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garganacl: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garganacl: 210-247 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 204-241 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garganacl: 294-346 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 294-346 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
recovery

As you can see from above, it can take a lot of hits from some very common pokemon (and i havent even mentioned everything), and garganacl can punish them back HARD with salt cure. This pokemon functions similar to that of leech seed ferrothorn and magma storm heatran, where it can 1v1 a lot of things it shouldn't, get a lot of free damage, and can sweep with iron defense late game. The main difference being is that salt cure is unwallable with the lack of immunities and magic guard pokemon. Not only that, it also does 25% to water and steel types which makes walling it with balance teams using Dengo, Dondozo or Corviknight much harder, and makes offensive pokemon like Kingambit and Scizor harder to pivot in, as Garganacl can stall them with protect by using salt cure on the switch, a predicted swords dance or terastalizing into a good type match up gives you a free -50%.

Garganacl has the amazing ability purifying salt as well, making it unabled to be statused (unless your name is Toedscruel or Tinkaton) and effectively resist ghost. This makes it much harder for balance or fatter teams to break through Garganacl, often having to resort to PP stalling salt cure or recover, which at that point your team would be crippled and Garganacl's teammates can easy capitalize on it. This leads to many balance teams running less viable items just to beat Garganacl like Covert Cloak on toxapex and corviknight, which is shown here on the replay by ayevon https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1764497962-4cqf7ta6vxo3dkzrk2owae5v1sywn6lpw.

Garganacl suffocates both offense and balance teams, where If your offense isn't 6 super hard hitting pokemon, or your balance team not having trick or covert cloak pokemon, you will have a lot of trouble beating it.

even with the nerfed recover, garg has amazing survivability, especially with protect and leftovers which sometimes makes it feel almost impossible to break down. Currently, in OU there aren't many pokemon that can safely 1v1 garganacl, especially when it terastalizes. The few pokemon that can do it are no matter what tera it is are specs chi-yu and trick gholdengo.

Garganacl can fit nicely in every playstyle from HO to Stall making it very splashable.

https://pokepast.es/99616d74b024cf2b - HO
https://pokepast.es/10a541fa00d85f0c - BO
https://pokepast.es/2b16f7828d49b0f4 - Balance
https://pokepast.es/8e5dc92d5067e4eb - Stall

Garganacl can easily clean teams late game due to how safe salt cure is as a move. It often can take down 3 pokemon in a single game,

On these replays below, the players that are fighting Againts Garganacl has pokemon that counters it like meowscarada or Kingambit, yet Garganacl still prevails as the MVP.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-665652
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-666032

(Keep in mind on these two replays, both players are playing at their best)

Final nail in the coffin is Chi-Yu, one of the most consistent revenge killer for Garganacl is getting banned soon.

So what can garg do?

Garganacl can take massive hits from strong hitters in OU and shrug them off while stalling them with protect and salt cure.
Garganacl can stall out balance teams while being immune to their status, making a lot of balance teams using covert cloak on pokemon like gholdengo, dondozo, toxapex and corviknight.
Garganacl can be put in pretty much every team style and it still be viable.
Garganacl has a very safe and spammable move that makes pivoting into it very difficult as one misplay can cost you a whole pokemon.
Garganacl is often shown to be able to go up Againts more than 1 and winning, even if those pokemon are counters.


All of those qualities combined into ONE pokemon is absolutely insane, you can support Garganacl easily with any team, and fighting it is incredibly tedious as one misplay can lead you to lose up to 50% hp while the garg player just heals.

I am aware that it's not impossible to beat garg, but the amount of work one pokemon can do with very little risk, shows me that it is unbalanced and deserves to be looked at and suspect tested, along with other threats people have mentioned.
 
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Hard agree with Cyclizar even though I see little discussion about it being OP atm. It just gives offensive teams way too many tools in a single mon for it to be balanced. Probably lowkey best spinner in the tier besides the donphans since knock off threatens pult and scarf gholdengo trying to spinblock. So you got shed tail + knock off spam + great spin + torn T speed tier. It'll probably be pretty good in Ubers too if it ends up there.
 

termi

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I am new to this game so I did some research on Payapa Berry Toxapex and the most I found was its use for Z-Psychic Volcarona and Tapu Lele. I think there's a big difference between this tech and being forced to run Covert Cloak just to deal with 1 Pokemon. Garganacl has no counter-play outside of Covert Cloak and slapping Substitute on half of your offensive Pokemon. There is plenty of counter-play to Z-Psychic Volcarona outside of Payapa Berry Toxapex. Those builds just run it because they can't find a more solid answer / revenge killer. Also the Worry Seed Ferrothorn example is bad. Gliscor actually had splashable answers that weren't garbage like M-Latias, Keldeo, Kyurem, Weavile, or like any strong Water- / Ice-type attack in general.... Gliscor also doesn't have Salt Cure. I think the main disconnect here is I don't think you realize how ridiculous this move is. If Gliscor had Salt Cure, best believe that thing would be banned.

Agree to disagree I guess. I will personally be voting ban whenever the Garganacl suspect test goes up.
i think you underestimate the utility of covert cloak on pex. while nacl is the primary reason to run it over other items, it has a several other applications that are actually quite nice to have on a mon like pex. for example, you are never forced out by a sdef drop from dengo/pult's shadow ball, nor are you bothered by def drops from chien-pao's crunch. you also don't have to worry about flinches from a certain fish's dark pulse. in terms of general utility it actually does better than something like payapa berry did, which was only useful in scenarios where you faced one of the specific mons that you used said item for
 
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