Oh God, not another Wobbuffet discussion!

Lord Alchemy said:
Also, when the consider the fact that most of the people on Shoddy I faced had NO IDEA THAT WOBBY WAS ALLOWED, I'd imagine any usage % at this time would be totally worthless. Unless you allow Wobbufett for a couple of months and allow the metagame to stabilize around him, you won't have any worthwhile information. Outside of the fact that you can throw together a bunch of random crap and have Wobbufett hold them together for a winning record.
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I was wondering about this too. It doesn't say anywhere that Wobb is allowed, so how can you expect accurate usage statistics when the majority of people don't know he's allowed and get pissed off when they see him?

I watched a Wobtrio user win almost all of his battles last night. Maybe I should build a team like that centered around raping Blissey, Swampert or whatever wall is blocking Raikou and then give him a free sub to start sweeping. Nothing rapes walls like Wobbuffet, that's for sure.
 
First of all, I find it highly annoying that Wobbuffet would be unbanned from the ladder without the proper testing that they gave Deoxys-E. The only announcement I found of it on Shoddy Battle was a thread asking why it was unbanned.

Second of all, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't an uber defined as a Pokemon that has no counters in the standard metagame or a Pokemon who has so few counters that they overcentralise it?

How can a Pokemon, who's ability keeps you from switching out actually have a counter? A counter after all is a Pokemon who can switch in, take the hit, and force the Pokemon it's countering to switch out or is able to kill it. None of the physical ghosts or special darks are capable of actually doing this, and the only way to get them into Wobbuffet is to wait for it to kill your Pokemon. In that situation, these physical ghosts, and special darks cannot be considered counters, but "revenge killers." And even then, they are fairly bad at doing it since the only way they would revenge kill it is if it had Pursuit.

I'm not denying that Wobbuffet needs a lot of support in order to work, but think about it. When you pull it off, Wobbuffet would either give your team a guaranteed switch in and set up through his use of Encore, or it kills your opponent's Pokemon with either Counter or Mirror Coat.

I've seen people mention Tauntdos as a way to stop Wobbuffet, but really, when are you going to witch Wobbuffet into Gyarados? The only way this situation will ever happen is if you lead with it, which in my opinion is a foolish thing to do considering the fact that Gyarados is one of the top leads, aswell as Tyranitar for Sand Storm teams. Apart from that, you will never actually have Wobbuffet going up against a Pokemon that knows taunt unless you switch it into one. This same logic applies to those so called counters found in "Physical Ghosts" and "Special Darks"
 
SubVersion said:
Then you're reading the wrong posts. The Wobb user doesn't need telepathic prediction to figure out that the Forretress that just switched in against my un-boosted physical attacker is probably going to lay some rocks on the turn it assumes it has free. I don't need to predict that if something on my team is already asleep, Gengar is going to try Shadow Balling me. The best part is, if you bring Wobbuffet in against the right things, even if you get the prediction wrong (say Gengar uses Thunderbolt instead of Shadow Ball to stop your free Smeargle switch-in), you still kill the opponent (Thunderbolt wont be hurting Wobb much and he can just bounce it back with Mirror Coat).

What makes you think that a good player isn't just luring in Wobbuffet with the Forretress? The opponent can predict too y'know.

Your Gengar example is flawed. You DO need prediction to get rid of the Gengar against Wobbuffet, because if you're trying to Mirror Coat a Shadow Ball because you're assuming that, what are you going to do if it's one of those Subbing Gengars? Gengar can just get behind a sub and 2HKO with Shadow Ball, either forcing Wobbuffet to switch, or killing him. Not all Gengars are Choiced...

You can't just say that you can get the prediction wrong with Wobbuffet, because it's honestly not true. It can't just sit there all day sucking up attacks like Cresselia. There's a lot of crap that can 2HKO him if he comes in on the wrong thing.

It isn't a matter of Wobb needing superhuman prediction; Make an informed guess, and if you're right, you set up your sweep. If you're wrong, you kill something anyway. Its a no-lose situation for the Wobb user.

This makes no sense. It's not a no-lose situation for the Wobb-user. How do you kill something anyway if you're wrong? If you accidentally Mirror Coat a physical attack, you're the only one that took damage, because you predicted wrong, and you DIDN'T kill anything, so your point doesn't sound right. An "informed guess" is a prediction, just so you know.

In other words, it's a win-lose situation for the Wobb-user. Not different than any other pokemon.
A smart Wobb user is never bringing him in against a Breloom unless something else on the team is already asleep. =\

Well, whatever. My point is that Encore is NOT foolproof. You can always end up Encoring a very painful attack, or a status that your team hates.

Also, that Wobbuffet is an incredibly slow Encore user, so therefore it can be put to sleep before it can do anything. Whether that be by Breloom or anything else with a sleeping move. Then there's also the fact if the opponent Encores one of Wobbuffet's moves that isn't Encore, he's forced to switch out too.
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OK: Here is Why Wobby should be banned: On the Pmbn.net server because official is down, my first time ever to use Wobby, I 6-0'ed.

Formula was simple...I started with a special Perishgar, ML, Perish, switch to Wobby, free turn for Safeguard basically as opponent TWaved me, I gave Wobby a lum for just that reason...then the fun began. I encored the Shadow Ball of the incoming Gar and switched to Smeargle. Sub, he switches, BD, he eliminates Sub with TTar EQ, Salac!, BP to Aero. EQ misses, and Aero kills everything on his team with EQ/SE.


How is that even fair?
 
TheMaskedNitpicker said:
Other things that make Wobbuffet more powerful on Shoddy than it should be: If I'm reading the code right, Payback requires you to get hit in Shoddy in order to double the power. This means that a user of Payback does less damage on a predicted Wobbuffet switch-in than it otherwise would.
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Payback is correct. You're probably looking at the source archive, which is only for historical interest, not practical use. For practical code review, you want to checkout the code from the CVS repository. Payback was fixed months ago, when Obi first made his stall team (since he noticed it then).

Encore is quite likely wrong however. I'll check it out.

Raiku said:
It doesn't say anywhere that Wobb is allowed
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It says on the welcome message on the screen when you log in. There's nowhere more obvious it could possibly be put. We can't do much for people who refuse to read the text presented to them.
 
Bologo, mind doing some math?

How many % of the matches are won?

That's right, 50.

So how can one EASILY, as you claim it, get a win % of 75%? Not everyone is inhumanly skilled y'know.


Also Colin, the Wobby Unbanned thing is OUT OF THE WELCOME SCREEN when I log in. I have to scroll up first. Not much work but not everyone takes their time looking at it.
I'd take a quick screen snap if Shoddy would just display the servers, but alas >.<. Been having some problems with the registry for a while now.
 
Lou Cypher said:
Bologo, mind doing some math?

How many % of the matches are won?

That's right, 50.

So how can one EASILY, as you claim it, get a win % of 75%? Not everyone is inhumanly skilled y'know.
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So? I never said I made a bad UU team, just like the guy I was referring to never said it was a bad OU team. Just made quickly.

Plus, lots of people easily get that high of a %win rate. It's nothing new, even with Wobbuffet included.

I've never even made the top 100 before, so 75% win rate is very low compared to what some other people get.

Yes, so I did do some math, I know my percentages very well from math class every year.

63% isn't terrible, but it's still not anything that would suggest that Wobbuffet is uber. ESPECIALLY when people didn't know that Wobbuffet was allowed when the guy was facing them.

If they didn't know, then those 63% wins were just lucky, IMO, because there was no way they could've prepared for it, unless they were one of the few that actually scrolled up on the welcome window and the the "Wobbuffet is now unbanned on the ladder" thing.

Therefore it doesn't prove much.

Sure 50% of matches are won, but those wins are not, by any means, distributed equally among all shoddybattle members...
 
Wobba being unbanned blows dick. Let's ruin the closest thing to a unified, global battling ladder by fucking up people's ranks and unbalancing the metagame. I seriously lost a lot of respect for Colin and the Shoddy staff, and I had a lot of respect for them. It's not like Deoxys-E where it's simple to see that he's got nothing Uber-like about him, but there's something with a very strong case for being Uber that's being thrown into the Ladder at random.

Guys who thought Wobbuffet wasn't Uber who never had to face one: What do you think now?
 
Building a team in an environment with Wobbuffet is significantly different than building it in an environment without Wobbuffet. The people who play Smogon/Shoddy's metagame aren't used to Wobbuffet, so they don't know how to build a team with it in mind. Naturally they get pissed when Wobbuffet is introduced, because they like the old metagame. If they wanted a play environment that promoted variety, they wouldn't be playing Shoddy/Smogon OU. They'd be playing UU or using another tier system entirely.

It doesn't matter whether or not Wobbuffet centralizes the metagame. If people would accept it and make teams that could deal with it, I'd bet that it would de-centralize the game. But most people won't do that because they're too busy whining. Wobbuffet's so unpopular that its effect on the metagame is probably of secondary importance. People hate it anyway.

As for the debate, I'll mention one thing I find interesting. People who claim Wobbuffet is unbalanced keep saying, "Wobbuffet wouldn't come in on this," and, "Wobbuffet wouldn't come in on that." So, what can Wobbuffet come in on? Let's get a list of OU Pokémon and see which ones Wobbuffet actually wants to switch in on.
 
It can switch in on anything without taunt or a sleep move. Even the choice users with the power to 2hko must use the proper move when he switches in or they're done.

As such, it's much easier to state what he can't come in on than what he can, since the list of what he can't come in on is much smaller. He can't come in reliably on taunt Gyarados, taunt Heatran, Tyranitar, Gengar, and to a lesser degree anything with U-turn, which isn't much. Good prediction and most everything else is fair game unless the metagame shifts to counter him, which would be overcentralization.
 
Raikou said:
Good prediction and most everything else is fair game unless the metagame shifts to counter him, which would be overcentralization.
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Wrong. If Kyogre were to be added to OU, you'd see almost every team with a Kyogre counter. That's centralization. Since Wobbuffet has no counters, this won't be happening. If anything, I predict a de-centralization as people create teams that can execute a strategy while being resilient to a possible Wobbuffet on the opponent's team.
 
TheMaskedNitpicker said:
Wrong. If Kyogre were to be added to OU, you'd see almost every team with a Kyogre counter. That's centralization. Since Wobbuffet has no counters, this won't be happening. If anything, I predict a de-centralization as people create teams that can execute a strategy while being resilient to a possible Wobbuffet on the opponent's team.
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Can people get off this whole strict counter definition bullshit? If people start carrying taunt, u-turn, baton pass or a sleep move on every member of their team they're countering him even though they can't switch in. This is the only way to "counter" him. Anything that can't do one of the above better be able to 2hko him, and there's your overcentralization.

I've been watching shoddy matches with him, he does destroy unprepared teams and "prepared" teams are just opening up weaknesses in other areas. But whatever, I just play UU so I guess I shouldn't care how boring OU becomes. At least he'll stay banned on wifi.
 
Raikou said:
Can people get off this whole strict counter definition bullshit? If people start carrying taunt, u-turn, baton pass or a sleep move on every member of their team they're countering him even though they can't switch in. This is the only way to "counter" him. Anything that can't do one of the above better be able to 2hko him, and there's your overcentralization.

I've been watching shoddy matches with him, he does destroy unprepared teams and "prepared" teams are just opening up weaknesses in other areas. But whatever, I just play UU so I guess I shouldn't care how boring OU becomes. At least he'll stay banned on wifi.
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He won' stay banned on wifi for long if he's successfully tested on shoddy, and so far there are no indications of an overcentralization at all.
anyway, if you're playing UU then you should be fine.
 
Shoddy is not Smogon nor do its tier lists have anything to do with wifi. Shoddy is nice but it's a standalone battle sim and will be replaced with competitor. Smogon hasn't even unbanned Deoxys yet, and I'm sure they will eventually but they already tested Wobbuffet and found him to be uber.
 
I'm relatively certain Deoxys-S will be unbanned on Smogon. If Wobbuffet proves to be not uber, then it, too, will be not uber on Smogon. There's nothing inherently uber about anything. If Mewtwo had base 10 all it would be NU. If it turns out Manaphy actually doesn't learn any Water moves and all Water move Manaphy were, in fact, created with an Action Replay, it would almost certainly not be uber as well. Uber is really whatever we define it as.
 
Bologo said:
What makes you think that a good player isn't just luring in Wobbuffet with the Forretress? The opponent can predict too y'know.
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Who really cares? What is Forretress doing in return? If it isn't spiking/SRing, its either Exploding, Earthquaking or Gyro Balling. Do you really think Wobbuffet gives a damn about any of this? He'll just kill Forretress, then come in later on a different Pokemon to try again. The opponent's "prediction" doesn't mean squat; Either I set up a sweep or they lose Forretress.

Bologo said:
Your Gengar example is flawed. You DO need prediction to get rid of the Gengar against Wobbuffet, because if you're trying to Mirror Coat a Shadow Ball because you're assuming that, what are you going to do if it's one of those Subbing Gengars? Gengar can just get behind a sub and 2HKO with Shadow Ball, either forcing Wobbuffet to switch, or killing him. Not all Gengars are Choiced...
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Again, nothing you've said here matters to Wobbuffet. You do know Encore hits through Sub, right? If I'm bringing Wobbuffet in against Gengar, then that means something else on my team is already asleep (so it can't Hypnosis me), bringing him in otherwise would be a stupid move on my part. Which leaves Gengar with three options: Sub, hit with Shadow Ball, or hit with a non-ghost attack. If it Subs, I Encore the Sub, bring in Smeargle, set up sweep. If it hits with Shadow Ball, I take the hit, Encore, bring in Smeargle, set up sweep. If it uses a non-ghost move, I'll take the hit, Encore, then kill it next turn with Mirror Coat.

Remind me again how Gengar wins in this situation?

Bologo said:
This makes no sense. It's not a no-lose situation for the Wobb-user. How do you kill something anyway if you're wrong? If you accidentally Mirror Coat a physical attack, you're the only one that took damage, because you predicted wrong, and you DIDN'T kill anything, so your point doesn't sound right. An "informed guess" is a prediction, just so you know.

In other words, it's a win-lose situation for the Wobb-user. Not different than any other pokemon.
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See above. Someone playing Wobbuffet correctly (ie. someone who isn't retarded and doesn't bring him in on the wrong things) doesn't have to make a prediction, because whatever the opponent does, they either die, or let me set up. "Oh but if you bring Wobb against an offensive Pokemon that can beat it and guess wrong he dies" isn't a proper counter-argument to Wobb's brokenness. Since Wobb chooses when to come in, he's not going to appear against anything that could break him if he uses Mirror Coat when he should have used Counter.

Bologo said:
Also, that Wobbuffet is an incredibly slow Encore user, so therefore it can be put to sleep before it can do anything. Whether that be by Breloom or anything else with a sleeping move. Then there's also the fact if the opponent Encores one of Wobbuffet's moves that isn't Encore, he's forced to switch out too.
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Yes, all Gengar/Breloom should never sleep anything that isn't a Wobbuffet just in case the opponent has a Wobbuffet. Yes, Jumpluff can Encore his non-Encore moves. Because the Wobb user is totally leaving him in against something faster, that has Encore, after just using Counter or Mirror Coat, right?
 
FWIW Gengar could be running double status. How much does an unboosted Shadow Ball from Gengar do to Wobby anyway?

Also, if I have an opportunity to blow up on Wobby, I'm going to do it. The question is whether or not losing my Forretress/Gengar/Metagross/Bronzong is going to cost me the rest of the match.
 
noob3 said:
Deoxys-E Used Taunt
Wobbuffet uses encore. Can't encore after Taunt.
Deoxys-E Used Shadow Ball
Wobbuffet uses Mirror Coat
Deoxys-E Dies.
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Wobbuffet users know Standard Deoxys is gonna use a special attack (shadow ball) as it's physical mover superpower does crap to it.

Mirror Coat / Counter are considered attacking moves.
 
SubVersion said:
Who really cares? What is Forretress doing in return? If it isn't spiking/SRing, its either Exploding, Earthquaking or Gyro Balling. Do you really think Wobbuffet gives a damn about any of this? He'll just kill Forretress, then come in later on a different Pokemon to try again. The opponent's "prediction" doesn't mean squat; Either I set up a sweep or they lose Forretress.
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They can switch back out again to scout for Wobbuffets at least.

In my opinion Gamefreak made the wrong decision in giving Wobbuffet Encore, it should have gotten Taunt or even Torment instead.
 
Little Green Yoda said:
FWIW Gengar could be running double status. How much does an unboosted Shadow Ball from Gengar do to Wobby anyway?

Also, if I have an opportunity to blow up on Wobby, I'm going to do it. The question is whether or not losing my Forretress/Gengar/Metagross/Bronzong is going to cost me the rest of the match.
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As for Gengar: Shadow Ball doesn't OHKO. And WoW doesn't change the gameplan much. It goes:

Wobb Encores WoW.
Smeargle switches in, gets burned. (88%)
Smeargle Spores incoming Pokemon. (76%)
Smeargle Belly Drums. (14%)
Smeargle Baton Passes.

Burn just means Smeargle can't use Sub and Drum together, which is safer.

Also, unless you're randomly blowing yourself up because a Wobbuffet might be switching in, you're going to be Encored into SR or Gyro Ball before you can explode. Unless the first thing you do every time you bring Forry in is use Explosion, you're not getting the chance you want.
 
Any status besides sleep or freeze Wobb doesn't give a crap about. Here's what I've done against any non-sleep/freeze status

Poke X used status Y
Wobb used Encore
Wobb used Safeguard
switch to Sub/Spore/BD/BP Smeargle
Poke X used status Y, but it failed
gg

Also with Explosion, chances are good it wont kill him from a Forretress or any other defensive pokemon (I got hit with one from something, can't remember what, something along the line of Heatran maybe?. It only did 53%).
 
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