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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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I'd start with this banlist for Home. Not sure what's controversial or not (if anything):

(The Usual Ubers +)
-Last Respects
-Magearna
-Urshifu Single-Strike
-Spectrier
-All Currently Banned Pokemon (don't retest for God's sake)
-Regieleki (Retest at some point, or give a slighy chance before probably an inevitable quickban)

see you’re way more conservative than I am. I want the ban list to be:

Box legends+
Last respects.

obviously we’ll have quick Bans within 24 hours. But It’ll be a bunch of mons we haven’t seen in like 5 years and like 15 brand new mons. I don’t wanna assume something like hoopa will be broken. Plus I just think the existence of the arcues Pokémon like sneasler are gonna warp the meta in ways we aren’t expecting.
 
I'd start with this banlist for Home. Not sure what's controversial or not (if anything):

(The Usual Ubers +)
-Last Respects
-Magearna
-Urshifu Single-Strike
-Spectrier
-All Currently Banned Pokemon (don't retest for God's sake)
-Regieleki (Retest at some point, or give a slighy chance before probably an inevitable quickban)
I think the only likely immediate bans will be Box Legendaries (save for shield doggo maybe) and Landorus I. Last Respects will likely be quick banned day 1 or so and Houndstone will be freed.

I think Urshifu S, Magearna, and Spectrier are all broken to some extent. Spectrier outspeeds so much and basically just does exactly what it did in Gen VIII that made it so problematic. Urshifu S and Magearna I think will last longer but I think both could also be broken for similar reasons to how they were in Gen VIII. Urshifu also got SD, which is not nice.
 
I think the only likely immediate bans will be Box Legendaries (save for shield doggo maybe) and Landorus I. Last Respects will likely be quick banned day 1 or so and Houndstone will be freed.

I think Urshifu S, Magearna, and Spectrier are all broken to some extent. Spectrier outspeeds so much and basically just does exactly what it did in Gen VIII that made it so problematic. Urshifu S and Magearna I think will last longer but I think both could also be broken for similar reasons to how they were in Gen VIII. Urshifu also got SD, which is not nice.

agreed but i also think urshifu-RS could be problematic this generation thanks to it gaining SD and terastallization making its STABs even harder to wall, especially after a boost. i don't see a world in which either urshifu form survives in OU this gen but i guess we'll just have to see
 
agreed but i also think urshifu-RS could be problematic this generation thanks to it gaining SD and terastallization making its STABs even harder to wall, especially after a boost. i don't see a world in which either urshifu form survives in OU this gen but i guess we'll just have to see

While I do agree with this, I think the defensive titan of dondozo should be able to handle it nicely with unaware and its resistance to surging strikes. Haze pex can also handle it or force it to run thunder punch which means amoongus walls it. Meowscarada and dragapult can also check it offensively meaning that offensive teams can also handle it.

Will Urshifu RS be good? Yes absolutely. Will it be broken, not really imo
 
While I do agree with this, I think the defensive titan of dondozo should be able to handle it nicely with unaware and its resistance to surging strikes. Haze pex can also handle it or force it to run thunder punch which means amoongus walls it. Meowscarada and dragapult can also check it offensively meaning that offensive teams can also handle it.

Will Urshifu RS be good? Yes absolutely. Will it be broken, not really imo
I mean, Dondozo also handles all Chien Pao sets except Band Adamant Tera Dark (and still can do it with Tera Fight or Fairy), and that doesn't mean the cat is not broken. I am actually quite scared of Watershifu, who was already annoying enough in SS without SD as another option.
 
While I do agree with this, I think the defensive titan of dondozo should be able to handle it nicely with unaware and its resistance to surging strikes. Haze pex can also handle it or force it to run thunder punch which means amoongus walls it. Meowscarada and dragapult can also check it offensively meaning that offensive teams can also handle it.

Will Urshifu RS be good? Yes absolutely. Will it be broken, not really imo

dondozo has to be at full HP when switching in if it wants to check urshifu or else it gets 2HKO'd by close combat after stealth rock. toxapex can get 2HKO'd by close combat after a swords dance, and that becomes a near guaranteed 2HKO if hazards are up. amoonguss gets 2HKO'd after a swords dance without urshifu even needing any chip from hazards. the only reliable, consistent answers you mentioned would be the faster revenge killers in meowscarada and dragapult, and meow still gets blown away if urshifu terastallizes into a pure fighting type. this dude will definitely be a problem now that it has swords dance and i can't see a world in which it's balanced for OU
 
Will Urshifu RS be good? Yes absolutely. Will it be broken, not really imo
The problem with Urshifu-RS is that I can only think of 1 mon that kinda checks it and prevents it from nuking your team, and that is Dondozo with Unaware. Water Absorb Clodsire would also be good, if it wasn't for the fact that Urshifu learns Ice Spinner, which probably OHKOs it even without an SD. Its great physical bulk also means it won't get revenge killed by any priority move as long as it has a decent amount of health left. The only option left is to revenge kill it with a faster mon, preferably a Special Attacker, so that is really the only thing that makes me hope it won't be broken. But then again Urshifu gets Aqua Jet, and after an SD and Tera Water I'd be seriously worried for my mon. Add into the equation Shed Tail, Screens, Defensive Tera and Rain support for even stronger Water moves and you'll get a very annoying mon, which will probably end up being borderline broken.
But who knows, maybe I'm being too pessimistic and the likes of Zapdos, Tornadus, Meowscarada and Dragapult will be able to handle it (doubt it).
 
Does anyone know hard information on when home might come? All I've heard is that the home software is getting "some kind of update" in a few weeks
 
Does anyone know hard information on when home might come? All I've heard is that the home software is getting "some kind of update" in a few weeks
There is no official date, but "Pokemon Day" is this month and Home support was reportedly supposed to happen by Spring, so people are expecting some update in the near future.
 
The problem with Urshifu-RS is that I can only think of 1 mon that kinda checks it and prevents it from nuking your team, and that is Dondozo with Unaware. Water Absorb Clodsire would also be good, if it wasn't for the fact that Urshifu learns Ice Spinner, which probably OHKOs it even without an SD. Its great physical bulk also means it won't get revenge killed by any priority move as long as it has a decent amount of health left. The only option left is to revenge kill it with a faster mon, preferably a Special Attacker, so that is really the only thing that makes me hope it won't be broken. But then again Urshifu gets Aqua Jet, and after an SD and Tera Water I'd be seriously worried for my mon. Add into the equation Shed Tail, Screens, Defensive Tera and Rain support for even stronger Water moves and you'll get a very annoying mon, which will probably end up being borderline broken.
But who knows, maybe I'm being too pessimistic and the likes of Zapdos, Tornadus, Meowscarada and Dragapult will be able to handle it (doubt it).

Maybe Slowbro could see an uptick in usage but even then, Urshifu can run thunder punch / tera steel to avoid the future sight ko, I think its going to be banned.
 
Maybe Slowbro could see an uptick in usage but even then, Urshifu can run thunder punch / tera steel to avoid the future sight ko, I think its going to be banned.
Not Ferro/Fini also makes hard to justify keeping Urshifu, not even would need tera to destroy teams, if anything tera would be one of the few ways to check it.
Talking about defensive tera, with Pao gone which tera types do you guys predict to be more used? I can see water and fairy falling in usage since dark/ice wouldn't be as needed as before while tera ghost to block rapid spin just got way better for example.
 
Depending on what's coming, Tera might need another look if it's going to just be a can of worms.
While a member of council would be better suited to provide specifics, the door was never closed on tiering action for Tera. I am personally glad that tiering action was stymied for the time being, as some of the potentially game breaking strategies have become more predictable over time. It's still absolutely worth keeping on the radar, of course. Though I personally feel that the currently banned mons would be broken with or without Tera, with the possible (though questionable) exception of Annihilape, as their issues far exceeded Tera antics.
 
We know if more stuff besides that list in serebii is coming? From that list only Urshifu, Magearna and Hoopa U look like they could be too much with tera at first glance.

Not sure.

While a member of council would be better suited to provide specifics, the door was never closed on tiering action for Tera. I am personally glad that tiering action was stymied for the time being, as some of the potentially game breaking strategies have become more predictable over time. It's still absolutely worth keeping on the radar, of course. Though I personally feel that the currently banned mons would be broken with or without Tera, with the possible (though questionable) exception of Annihilape, as their issues far exceeded Tera antics.

[Disclaimer: I suck at Pokemon Battling and never really post on this site.]

I think Tera compounds the issues a lot of people are seeing and creates a situation where goalposts can be moved unpredictably. Some thoughts people shared on here about Espathra pointed out how Tera really pushes it over the edge for them; If that's the prevailing argument is the Pokemon or the mechanic the cause of the ban?

The phrase 'tera abuser' often used as a likeable quality of a Pokemon, even one that would otherwise be crap. But it seems to be what causes or is seemingly the nail in the coffin for actioning a Pokemon thus far. It reminds of me of when you guys were discussing shed tail users vs shed tail itself, but everyone in the game is now a shed tail user to some extent. And we're going to get a few more I think. Just think it's worth a look.
 
Not sure.



[Disclaimer: I suck at Pokemon Battling and never really post on this site.]

I think Tera compounds the issues a lot of people are seeing and creates a situation where goalposts can be moved unpredictably. Some thoughts people shared on here about Espathra pointed out how Tera really pushes it over the edge for them; If that's the prevailing argument is the Pokemon or the mechanic the cause of the ban?

The phrase 'tera abuser' often used as a likeable quality of a Pokemon, even one that would otherwise be crap. But it seems to be what causes or is seemingly the nail in the coffin for actioning a Pokemon thus far. It reminds of me of when you guys were discussing shed tail users vs shed tail itself, but everyone in the game is now a shed tail user to some extent. And we're going to get a few more I think. Just think it's worth a look.
I can't say that Tera is inherently at fault here. If we hisotrically look at Speed Boost, it was a bit problematic in its own right. On Ninjask, no one cared. It wasn't good enough to use even when Baton Pass was legal. When Blaizken got it, things started getting out of hand. Blaziken proved to be too much for the next 3 generations (5, 6, and 7) before the power creep got to the point that it could come back. Now Espathra is taking it and abusing it with Calm Mind and Stored Power shenanigans.
The reason Tera pushes Espathra over the edge is because unlike other Pokemon, like Garg or Gambit, is that the emu doesn't HAVE to commit to a single or pair of Teras that you'll see 99% of the time; it can run a multitude of Teras, which leads to the case scenario of the "Tera mindgames". Not needing a specific Tera committal to beat one specific Pokemon is why people bring it up, not because of whether Tera as a mechanic is inherently broken or not.
 
Trick Room is only way to counter Espathra?
Not necessarily, a strong priority move also knocks it out. Otherwise you could use the classic Ting-Lu and Whirlwind it away, Tera Dark Clodsire with Unaware, SpDef Skeledirge or Dondozo (but you gotta switch into Espathra as soon as it enters the field) or you could test your luck with Gholdengo, either a Scar Trick set or a bulky Nasty Plot set would do the work. Now this is all in theory, in practice it's much harder to check.
 
Trick Room is only way to counter Espathra?
Not necessarily, a strong priority move also knocks it out. Otherwise you could use the classic Ting-Lu and Whirlwind it away, Tera Dark Clodsire with Unaware, SpDef Skeledirge or Dondozo (but you gotta switch into Espathra as soon as it enters the field) or you could test your luck with Gholdengo, either a Scar Trick set or a bulky Nasty Plot set would do the work. Now this is all in theory, in practice it's much harder to check.
I actually use my own breed of Skeledirge that soft counters Espathra, but you NEED to hard switch in on it to beat it. Otherwise, my Dirge set beats a lot of Pokemon 1v1.
 
I can't say that Tera is inherently at fault here. If we hisotrically look at Speed Boost, it was a bit problematic in its own right. On Ninjask, no one cared. It wasn't good enough to use even when Baton Pass was legal. When Blaizken got it, things started getting out of hand. Blaziken proved to be too much for the next 3 generations (5, 6, and 7) before the power creep got to the point that it could come back. Now Espathra is taking it and abusing it with Calm Mind and Stored Power shenanigans.
The reason Tera pushes Espathra over the edge is because unlike other Pokemon, like Garg or Gambit, is that the emu doesn't HAVE to commit to a single or pair of Teras that you'll see 99% of the time; it can run a multitude of Teras, which leads to the case scenario of the "Tera mindgames". Not needing a specific Tera committal to beat one specific Pokemon is why people bring it up, not because of whether Tera as a mechanic is inherently broken or not.

Then I'd say action speed boost and see how it goes before pulling the plug on the bird. Seems more reasonable in the short term and we all love opportunist Espathra.
 
Then I'd say action speed boost and see how it goes before pulling the plug on the bird. Seems more reasonable in the short term and we all love opportunist Espathra.
What about other Speed Boost Pokemon that may or may not come into the DLC, like Blaziken and Sharpedo? If they come in and Speed Boost is banned, which is their niche in the first place, where will they even reside? They're practically going to be forced to use their weaker abilities, although Sharpedo has Rough Skin I believe.
 
Then I'd say action speed boost and see how it goes before pulling the plug on the bird. Seems more reasonable in the short term and we all love opportunist Espathra.
Can't. It's the only Pokemon in the game currently with Speed Boost, so it'd be a needlessly complex ban just to keep the stupid emu around. It's why Houndstone is banned when Last Respects was the problem. If Blaziken comes out with HOME, then MAYBE we can test Speed Boost, but it's most likely just going to be the stupid bird getting banned.

I'm 99% sure once Basculegion comes out, Houndstone is coming back and Last Respects is getting complex banned since it would wind up banning 3 Pokemon for its crimes.
 
Tera Flying Hawlucha is able to dish out Massive Damage to Clodsire (useless if it is physically defensive).

252+ Atk Tera Flying Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 396-466 (85.5 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Flying Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 310-366 (66.9 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Clodsire has Tera Dark, it will be OHKO'd by Close Combat. If Hawlucha has Mold Breaker, it can OHKO Clodsire easily.

+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Tera Flying Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 718-846 (155 - 182.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Tera Flying Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 566-666 (122.2 - 143.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Uh there are a lot of pokemon good agaisnt clodsire, and not just the non-physically defensive sets, what does hawlucha do other than that?
 
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