Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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It's also worth noting that a large gap between "Regular perception" and "High-rank perception" is, in itself, useful data.

If regular players struggle with a mon, but skilled players don't, it heavily suggests that you can build around it reliably. Very much a "once you know what you're doing, it's not so bad." situation - or, as the kids these days say - "Skill Issue."

Inversely, though, when high-rank players consider a mon a bigger problem, as is the case with Chien-Pao)?

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Whatever counterplay exists, it's not really enough to make the mon not a threat. Or, at the very least. to make it not awful to play against.

There's no way to get that data without polling a large number of players, including scrubs (full disclosure: like myself). And seeing larger metagame trends really is something worth doing, especially if you're trying to make the best response possible to The Gen 9 Problem.
I mostly agree with this, but there's one minor factor that isn't really accounted for when someone is lower on ladder; Laddering anxiety. You can have all the knowledge and skill in the UNIVERSE on playing your team properly, but you'll make dumb decisions due to anxiety and overthinking things and getting punished for it.
I speak from experience. My main account has racked up so many losses due to this (and experimenting with various teams that went poorly, but mostly ladder anxiety.) I'd lose track of where I was in the game, or overthinking things trying to make "the best play possible", and getting screwed in the process.
I'm around 1300 on all 3 of my accounts (Main, Pao test, and Testing Alt), and some games are clean as hell... But ladder anxiety still grips me. Even un "Casual", unranked games in-game, the ladder anxiety still gets me and I make stupid mistakes. I THINK I could easily get 1500+ and probably play in tournaments, but I -- as they say -- screw the pooch in execution.

Also a line from a really old video I used to watch always rings in my head; "Don't make the play unless it is the right play or the only play."
 
I sit down for a couple hours every survey and read through as many responses as I can. Sometimes it’s just sorting through numbers and other times it’s reading the feedback. Sometimes people have genuine metagame input and other times Endrism asks me what my favorite type of cheese is.

Obviously the qualified responses count for more — and they should, but we are always open to hearing new ideas and community perception.
2/5 down, 3 more to go :)

Blah Blah, no one liner blah blah.

Espathra is such a weird thing for me, and its best compared to Gen 5-7 Blaziken. Incredibly frail, Loses to priority one way or another, but is just so aggravating to fight. Although Im not really sure if I would say its broken or not, just really annoying.

Same with Garganacl in the sense of I'm not sure if its broken or not. It's definitely top tier, and once other things come into the meta post-home it won't be as bad, but right now its very on the fence for me. A suspect seems imminent after Cheems Pao gets banned, but if itll actually get banned or not idk.

Gholdengo is fine. I wouldn't consider it broken at all. A few rapid spinners can beat Gholdengo 1v1 so its not a big issue against spike stack. Roaring Moon and Kinggambit have a pretty good time dealing with it. Fire and Ground users pressure it really hard, but it is definitely still easily S- rn. Very Very Good, but not busted.
 
imagine using memento instead of eject pack make it rain, smh my head
Eject Pack means no Light Clay.

But still, just use Dual Screens Dragapult w/ U-Turn or Curse, at this point.

Or Corviknight.

Or Grimsnarl.

Or Klefki w/ Steel Beam.

Wow, there’s a lot of better screeners aren’t there. :P

I've gotten lots of utility from Breloom. Hard to use early game but very useful in mid and great at cleaning up. Access to spore, colorful movepool and two great abilities allow it to be rather unpredictable and makes it fit on a lot. Genuinely think it's kinda underrated right now, but I am prolly too low on ladder to really know

In terms of core, I like pairing it up with specs Pult but I don't know if that's optimal. I just think the typings synergize well
Breloom is only viable with Tera Fire, I think.

Fire let’s it defensively tank Ice Shard to beat Chien Pao, hit Golden Joe with Tera Blast, and clobber its fellow grass types trying to absorb Spore.
 
But still, just use Dual Screens Dragapult w/ U-Turn or Curse, at this point.

Or Corviknight.

Or Grimsnarl.

Or Klefki w/ Steel Beam.

Wow, there’s a lot of better screeners aren’t there. :P
i still think grimmsnarl is so good as a screen setter this gen that it kind of beats out all the other options for screens just by merit of having priority parting shot
 
I mostly agree with this, but there's one minor factor that isn't really accounted for when someone is lower on ladder; Laddering anxiety. You can have all the knowledge and skill in the UNIVERSE on playing your team properly, but you'll make dumb decisions due to anxiety and overthinking things and getting punished for it.
I speak from experience. My main account has racked up so many losses due to this (and experimenting with various teams that went poorly, but mostly ladder anxiety.) I'd lose track of where I was in the game, or overthinking things trying to make "the best play possible", and getting screwed in the process.
I'm around 1300 on all 3 of my accounts (Main, Pao test, and Testing Alt), and some games are clean as hell... But ladder anxiety still grips me. Even un "Casual", unranked games in-game, the ladder anxiety still gets me and I make stupid mistakes. I THINK I could easily get 1500+ and probably play in tournaments, but I -- as they say -- screw the pooch in execution.

Also a line from a really old video I used to watch always rings in my head; "Don't make the play unless it is the right play or the only play."
This is just skill issue defined, as someone who's hard stuck 1500s I get it, but 9/10 it's probably an issue you're not seeing, or you're not piloting a good/decent team. I usually Consider any team that I can get to 1500s decent personally. If you want to get better potentially check out the tutoring section. It's something I've considered myself.

Btw, I've been drinking so please excuse me if I come off rude. I actually like better competition where I have to think, and it's not just clicking so I'm always down for other people getting better.


Also if anyone's got like a casual tournament server, gen doesn't matter, please hmu, as I've been trying to find something for a while.
 
This is just skill issue defined, as someone who's hard stuck 1500s I get it, but 9/10 it's probably an issue you're not seeing, or you're not piloting a good/decent team. I usually Consider any team that I can get to 1500s decent personally. If you want to get better potentially check out the tutoring section. It's something I've considered myself.

Btw, I've been drinking so please excuse me if I come off rude. I actually like better competition where I have to think, and it's not just clicking so I'm always down for other people getting better.


Also if anyone's got like a casual tournament server, gen doesn't matter, please hmu, as I've been trying to find something for a while.
Oh no, I very much know that at times I have skill issues. But most of my problem is lack of clarity of thought; Ladder anxiety. It's something I've always had regardless of game, StarCraft, DotA 2, Showdown... It's always existed for me.
 
I think Finch is referring more to natural switch-ins to Espathra like Kingambit, Gholdengo, Corviknight, and Iron Tread. But it's not just Tera Fire, It's Fairy Dazzling Gleam sets, it's Fighting Tera sets. It has a lot of unpredictable options because of tera and honestly the only thing that I've seen consistently to break Espathra is Ting-Lu. Skele can't really switch-in if it's 2 Calm Minds in.
Tera dark clod can beat defensive espathra and has a somewhat chance against the offensive set with fairy dgleam or fighting tera blast with toxic stalling from pull hp . ( same with tera dark sp def skele but do you really wanna run it ? )

+2 252 SpA Tera Fairy Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Tera Dark Clodsire: 158-188 (34.1 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 0 SpA Tera Fairy Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Tera Dark Clodsire: 126-150 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Ting-Lu is more of a check than a counter and lacks reliable recovery ( unless you run rest ) and can be worn down over time .

Defensive Gholdengo provides for a useful check . Scarf trick can work but is prediction reliant . As far as the 2 attack sets go . Tera dark unaware walls and steel types like tera steel rm , and gholdengo take care of it . Hatterene can also beat tera fighting espathra and even no tera or tera fairy espathra if its chipped a bit ( psyshock and draining kiss )
 

YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
Ting-Lu is more of a check than a counter and lacks reliable recovery ( unless you run rest ) and can be worn down over time .

Defensive Gholdengo provides for a useful check . Scarf trick can work but is prediction reliant . As far as the 2 attack sets go . Tera dark unaware walls and steel types like tera steel rm , and gholdengo take care of it . Hatterene can also beat tera fighting espathra and even no tera or tera fairy espathra if its chipped a bit ( psyshock and draining kiss )
The problem with Ting Lu is that it usually just Whirlwinds it away, since it loses 1v1 to the Roost set with Tera Fairy/Fighting. Which means that it doesn't really deal with the problem, it just postpones it. Still, whenever I have a Ting Lu on my team I try to keep it healthy in order to switch into Espathra every single time, although as you said it is prone to getting worn down.
Defensive Gholdengo with Nasty Plot is also a pretty good check to Espathra, but you have to switch it in as soon as it enters the field, in order to set up and click Shadow Ball. Surprisingly enough, I've always killed Espathras at +2 SpDef after a Nasty Plot, unless they Terastallized to something that is neutral to Ghost. Overall I think it's a pain in the ass dealing with it, if not borderline broken, and it's even worse behind a sub or Screens.
 

TPP

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Jokes aside, I voted a 5 on Espathra on the survey. This is because I find it extremely hard to have consistent counterplay against it, which is largely due to it having the combination of Stored Power + Tera + Speed Boost + good bulk on both sides after a Calm Mind. Unless you have a Tera Dark Unaware mon or Pex, or run into a favorable Tera type (Ting Lu into Tera Fire, Gholdengo/Gambit into Tera Fairy), then it is going to demand an excessive amount of effort to handle. I personally believe that the best way run to it is with Shed Tail Orthworm in order to generate additional free turns while avoiding status, and in a lot of cases, you just steam roll from there with little effort. I think once more Pokemon like Heatran are released, then it might be more manageable, but as for this current meta, I think Espathra needs to go.

Also curious to know if y'all find any other pokemon besides Garg/Espathra/Gholdengo to be very strong atm or maybe a little too much at times. Thanks and have a nice day.
 
The problem with Ting Lu is that it usually just Whirlwinds it away, since it loses 1v1 to the Roost set with Tera Fairy/Fighting. Which means that it doesn't really deal with the problem, it just postpones it. Still, whenever I have a Ting Lu on my team I try to keep it healthy in order to switch into Espathra every single time, although as you said it is prone to getting worn down.
Defensive Gholdengo with Nasty Plot is also a pretty good check to Espathra, but you have to switch it in as soon as it enters the field, in order to set up and click Shadow Ball. Surprisingly enough, I've always killed Espathras at +2 SpDef after a Nasty Plot, unless they Terastallized to something that is neutral to Ghost. Overall I think it's a pain in the ass dealing with it, if not borderline broken, and it's even worse behind a sub or Screens.
Being neutral to ghost should not be a problem as long as you are running twave + hex it should do like 50% with only one np boost
+2 4 SpA Gholdengo Hex (130 BP) vs. +3 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fighting Espathra: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also TPP thoughts on defensive ghol for espathra check ? ( non tera fire )

Also curious to know if y'all find any other pokemon besides Garg/Espathra/Gholdengo to be very strong atm or maybe a little too much at times. Thanks and have a nice day.
Gholdengo is pretty good . Its a S tier mon but not really broken in my opinion . Garg is annoying to deal with but stuffs like covert cloak are seeing usage as well . Dual regen core can help stall out salt cure ( although gotta be carefull of hazards and being called out ) . Gren is back which does good work of checking Garg . Garg seems like a mon for which you would always want to dedicate a check and if possible a semi check in your team

Espathra well , seems strong but not really broken on its own . I feel like tera is one of the things making espathra particularly strong . The three attack sets lack recovery and can be chipped down . Pex actually takes a lot of damage from just one turn of cm and speed boost
+1 0 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Stored Power (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

and as far as tera dark or steel pex is concerned . It still takes like 50% so pex isnt really a reliable check imo

+1 0 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Dark Toxapex: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge damage ( same calc with steel )
edit :
looking at the different tera types , espathra might even have to go .
Other than those three , I dont feel any other mon to be particularly super strong . ( Chien-pao is being suspected ) . It will be interesting to see where Dondozo stands if Pao is banned . This mon can single handedly wall like 95% of physical attackers on its own . Maybe it will no longer have to run that mandatory 252 def for that banded pao . Dragonite seemed pretty strong with multiscale and roost and with pao probably gone , it will have one less mon to worry about . Will be interesting to see how the meta develops around it
 
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i still think grimmsnarl is so good as a screen setter this gen that it kind of beats out all the other options for screens just by merit of having priority parting shot
Generally yes Grimmsnarl is the best dual screener, not just because of priority Parting Shot, but also priority Taunt, but it’s also very predictable. Parting Shot can be blocked with Dark types and Ghouldengo, which is why for some team structures something like screens Corv or Klefki might work better.

I think dual screens are just worse in general now than they were in the early meta, due to the prevalence of fat, the loss of Cylizar, and now that Cinderace can just swap screens over to its side with Court Change.

Screens will continue to decrease in effectiveness if Chien Pao gets banned, which I believe will result in Dragapult becoming the best offensive Mon in the tier.
 

YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
It will be interesting to see where Dondozo stands if Pao is banned . This mon can single handedly wall like 95% of physical attackers on its own.
Yeah but it's easy to manage as long as you have a strong Special Attacker, even better if it's Specs, like Iron Valiant, Gren, Dragapult, Rotom-W, Giga Drain Volc, Iron Moth and even the good old Gholdengo. It also gets clapped by Meowscarada with Flower Trick, Breloom with Bulled Seed and it gets checked hard by Amoonguss. Honestly I don't really think we lack the means to deal with this mon.
 
Tera Flying Hawlucha is able to dish out Massive Damage to Clodsire (useless if it is physically defensive).

252+ Atk Tera Flying Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 396-466 (85.5 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Flying Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 310-366 (66.9 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Clodsire has Tera Dark, it will be OHKO'd by Close Combat. If Hawlucha has Mold Breaker, it can OHKO Clodsire easily.

+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Tera Flying Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 718-846 (155 - 182.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Tera Flying Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 566-666 (122.2 - 143.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Being neutral to ghost should not be a problem as long as you are running twave + hex it should do like 50% with only one np boost
+2 4 SpA Gholdengo Hex (130 BP) vs. +3 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fighting Espathra: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Defensive Gholdengo largely only works if the opponent's Espathra isn't behind a sub already, whether it be from orthworm or its own substitute. Which makes it another case of "circumstantial counterplay".

Tera Flying Hawlucha is able to dish out Massive Damage to Clodsire (useless if it is physically defensive).

252+ Atk Tera Flying Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 396-466 (85.5 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Flying Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 310-366 (66.9 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Clodsire has Tera Dark, it will be OHKO'd by Close Combat. If Hawlucha has Mold Breaker, it can OHKO Clodsire easily.

+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Tera Flying Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 718-846 (155 - 182.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Tera Flying Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 566-666 (122.2 - 143.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
What the actual duck does this have to do with the discussion going on right now (Espathra).
 
These aren't new frustrations; the bird is just getting played more. It hit UU (officially), became UUBL within a matter of hours, and as it turns out?

Speed Boost + Stored Power does not exactly leave a ton of room for counterplay.
 
I wanted to see why do people not use specs hydreigon... like being spikes immune, being able to nuke great tusk, dondozo, and 2hko amoonguss with specs pulse is pretty nuts... while sure... I am not saying its a TOP A+ POKEMON OMG BROKEN, I am saying like a B- / B tier pick that is pretty usable.

Like not having a fear of being burnt, makes it able to switch into pokemon such as skeledirge, rotom-wash, CB great tusk eq, and garchomp eq (being able to force out hazard variants with draco due to them running dragon tail, or being able to tera and nuke garchomp with draco if they try to dragon claw you if they are SD.

And I will say being immune to toxic spikes, bunker's poison, and spikes gives hydreigon so much freedom especially since it can ignore it and not get worn down as fast
 
Why is no one talking about this showdown account name
I remember that explicit usernames were actually banned for a while, within the last year or so. Anyone with any no-no word in their username had to start over. Kind of weird and arbitrary what they blocked too. Like "pee" was banned, but "fart" wasn't?

Then the usernames were all unbanned. Not sure what happened behind the scenes there.
 
Saying Tera fire is the reason espathra is suddenly a problem for everyone makes no sense.

It only has surprise value and will perform in situations where the opponent hasn’t read your team structure correctly. Unfortunately you can’t scout against espathra due to her accumulating boosts and base power. So this means that she is in a unique place compared to other setup Pokémon.

tera fairy always had consistent value, unlike the “surprise” value of Tera fire, and unlike fire and fighting, it doesn’t actually need to take the Tera slot to perform.

that’s why espathra is a problem, because you don’t need to surprise someone to be good with it lol
 
I honestly feel bad for finch and the rest of the council, this next month of the meta they’re basically moving blind. I feel like the best course of action would be a quick ban immediately following this current suspect test with assumption one of two things happens.

1. Home’s is released with in the next 3 or so weeks and everything is unbanned anyway.

2. anything quick banned gets a suspect test Knowing that Home is at least a month and a half away

On to the actual Pokémon
Pao is getting banned it’s no point in talking about it

Espthra is broken, almost solely because of Tera, but when we refused to ban Tera we basically committed to banning multiple Pokémon because of it.

Garg is very annoying, I’ve had less problems since I started running grassknot greninja who pretty much OHKO’s him regardless of his type. Even if I think he might be broken, I don’t think he’s broken in a home meta so I’m not too worried about making him a priority.

Im also totally onboard with (almost) unbanning everything in a home meta. It’s so many meta defining Pokémon coming at once i think it’s extremely reasonable to see how everything interacts.
I'd start with this banlist for Home. Not sure what's controversial or not (if anything):

(The Usual Ubers +)
-Last Respects
-Magearna
-Urshifu Single-Strike
-Spectrier
-All Currently Banned Pokemon (don't retest for God's sake)
-Regieleki (Retest at some point, or give a slighy chance before probably an inevitable quickban)
 
I'd start with this banlist for Home. Not sure what's controversial or not (if anything):

(The Usual Ubers +)
-Last Respects
-Magearna
-Urshifu Single-Strike
-Spectrier
-All Currently Banned Pokemon (don't retest for God's sake)
-Regieleki (Retest at some point, or give a slighy chance before probably an inevitable quickban)
Don't talk about home, I don't wanna think about the cancer tera poison Cresselia will be. :psycry:


Saying Tera fire is the reason espathra is suddenly a problem for everyone makes no sense.
I think it is just the meta leading towards fat teams after Chi-Yu ban what made Espathra better. Before it was just considered a match up fishing Pokémon, but now with teams being more pasive than before makes Espartha having way better match ups than before, the same with Orthworm, they happen to be good against what the meta is developing towards and it will be better after Pao gets banned.
 
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