I've seen some people talk about how Home is going to "Undo all of our progress" and I really don't think (or hope at least) this is going to be the case. Most of the bans that have taken place are for mons that are definitely NOT going to be balanced after the additions from home and I really hope we don't have to go through the whole process of getting rid of then again. The only thing I could see returning is MAYBE Annihilape, and I'd rather not talk about Houndstone as that's an exhausted topic.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Noooooo, not another guy suggesting Annihilape Unban. I would honestly rather Unban the other 8 banned Mons than giving the slightest chance to the monkey of my nightmares.
Voted 3 Garg / 4 Volc / 2 Shed (though I think there's an argument for putting all three at 5, which I'll elaborate on) and wrote the following in the "additional issues" section, figured I'd copy-paste it here to make it a bit more public. It's a fairly radical stance but this metagame is in need of radical change IMO.
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The wording "competitive and balanced" creates some weirdness in answering the second question. I think the current metagame is fairly "balanced" in terms of no Pokemon having an individually egregious power level, but looking at OST or SPL games or just high ladder experience, it's hard for me to say that the gameplay patterns that have happened are particularly "competitive". It feels like we're still going through the "every game has an attempted matchup fish" phase that usually dies off by week 2 of new-generation SPL.
From my perspective, the source of this problem is evident: Banning Tera abusers instead of Tera itself is just cutting off individual heads of the hydra. I understand the council doesn't want to resuspect Tera until there's major metagame shifts, but I think the slow suspect-by-suspect process has already shown its deficiency at handling the elephant in the room here. I think they should strongly consider either:
(1) an earlier-than-planned Tera resuspect, OR
(2) massive quickban waves of Tera abusers until the metagame is somewhat playable [i.e. chopping off multiple heads of the hydra at once]
The status quo feels like a compromise that doesn't actually solve any of the fundamental gameplay issues. Chien-Pao being banned obviously lowered the "power level" of the tier, but in terms of gameplay, it just made it even fishier — now rather than there being one "central wallbreaker" to prep around that had only two common Tera types, we instead see a half-dozen breakers each running a wide gamut of Tera types that one can't feasibly prep for. Chien-Pao had very few bad matchups, but also very few "insta-win" matchups (since good players could prepare for it without TOO much difficulty); good play could always beat it. Perhaps it's just a consequence of the post-Pao metagame being in the formative state, but it feels like currently, there's a lot more MUs where good play cannot surpass the matchup gap. [Add.: On review, I think my wording here makes it sound like the Chien-Pao ban was a mistake or something. No, obviously not; the meta becoming more MU-fishy was not a direct result of the Chien-Pao ban, but rather just a natural evolution given the metagame factors present. This isn't meant to be a defense of Pao lol.]
People propose banning Garganacl because of unhealthy effects in the teambuilder and whatnot, which is fair. However, Garg being able to select its Tera type makes it able to check essentially the entire tier depending on what the team needs — remove that aspect and I think you make prep even harder, not easier. Yes, I know this sounds like "broken-checks-broken" mentality, but when the people voted to keep Tera, that's (in a very literal sense) what they were consenting to, so like it or not, we have to tier with it in mind. This is actually why I voted Volcarona as more deserving of a ban than Garganacl — Volc is not as "busted" as Garg in a conventional sense, but (since the Chien-Pao ban) its impacts on the tier are almost purely negative. I still doubt a Volc ban would fix anything, but it probably wouldn't make anything worse.
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Addendum: Admittedly, this writeup does neglect to mention how matchup-fishy Garg can be as well; Vert mentions Curse Water Garg sweeps which definitely feel like they fall into that camp, especially since Block is a genuine threat at the moment rather than just a weird niche lure. A realization of my "aggressive quickbans" proposal would obviously have Garg included in the first wave, even if my vote of 3 isn't exactly "quickban tier"; I voted 3 under the current ban philosophy rather than the exceptional circumstance I proposed. If broad tiering strategy reconsideration is on the table, then I would vote a 5 on both Garg and Volc, and probably place Shed Tail somewhere from 3 to 5 after a lot of internal debate.
Also, on reflection, my phrasing sounded a tad harsh on the council here, but that was not at all my intention. Let me be clear: I genuinely think they've done a very good job with the (miserable) cards they've been dealt. I can confess that actually implementing either of the options I outline would obviously be wildly unpopular. When council said they wouldn't resuspect Tera until after HOME, that commitment made sense at the time (hell, an immediate resuspect would've made it seem like they were just trying to repeatedly suspect it until it finally got restricted — double jeopardy laws exist for a reason, after all). When council said they'd be shifting from quickbans to suspects, that commitment also made sense at the time (and though an exception was made for Espa, I doubt anyone's crying over demon bird getting special treatment given community consensus). I just wanted to put this opinion out there to at least get people thinking about what the consequence of continuing to feed the hydra while cutting off its heads one-by-one.
That all isn't to say that this isn't a serious proposal — these are my genuine thoughts — I just can see the obvious regarding the viability of said strategy. Smogon is based on a mixture of meritocratic leadership and semi-democratic proceduralism, after all, and it would probably be worse in the long term to go against those established processes by sidestepping the suspect process via continued quickbans or resuspecting Tera too quickly. And at the end of the day, I'm just some roomchat random who watches high level games while only really participating in ladder; it's oft said that players are good at identifying problems but not so good at fixing them, so radical solutions like this should absolutely be taken with a grain of salt when their consequences are potentially dire.
Alas, even if solutions aren't viable, the problem still exists, and I think we shouldn't neglect it from our conversations. Yes, it's annoying to hear people continue complaining about Tera months after its suspect ended when another suspect in the future is all-but-confirmed, but IMO it's better to be annoyed than complacent, lest we get a repeat of BW. (In fact, I would argue BW is an example of a metagame where players realized the one-by-one approach to fixing the tier wouldn't work, as evidenced by Keldeo's failed suspects... and though at the time I would've voted ban on Keld, in hindsight it does seem like the no-ban vote has been vindicated. That said, there's obviously a ton of differences between the metagames, so I don't want to hammer this point too much, since the comparison does collapse if you try to extend it beyond a broad philosophic parallelism.)
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The wording "competitive and balanced" creates some weirdness in answering the second question. I think the current metagame is fairly "balanced" in terms of no Pokemon having an individually egregious power level, but looking at OST or SPL games or just high ladder experience, it's hard for me to say that the gameplay patterns that have happened are particularly "competitive". It feels like we're still going through the "every game has an attempted matchup fish" phase that usually dies off by week 2 of new-generation SPL.
From my perspective, the source of this problem is evident: Banning Tera abusers instead of Tera itself is just cutting off individual heads of the hydra. I understand the council doesn't want to resuspect Tera until there's major metagame shifts, but I think the slow suspect-by-suspect process has already shown its deficiency at handling the elephant in the room here. I think they should strongly consider either:
(1) an earlier-than-planned Tera resuspect, OR
(2) massive quickban waves of Tera abusers until the metagame is somewhat playable [i.e. chopping off multiple heads of the hydra at once]
The status quo feels like a compromise that doesn't actually solve any of the fundamental gameplay issues. Chien-Pao being banned obviously lowered the "power level" of the tier, but in terms of gameplay, it just made it even fishier — now rather than there being one "central wallbreaker" to prep around that had only two common Tera types, we instead see a half-dozen breakers each running a wide gamut of Tera types that one can't feasibly prep for. Chien-Pao had very few bad matchups, but also very few "insta-win" matchups (since good players could prepare for it without TOO much difficulty); good play could always beat it. Perhaps it's just a consequence of the post-Pao metagame being in the formative state, but it feels like currently, there's a lot more MUs where good play cannot surpass the matchup gap. [Add.: On review, I think my wording here makes it sound like the Chien-Pao ban was a mistake or something. No, obviously not; the meta becoming more MU-fishy was not a direct result of the Chien-Pao ban, but rather just a natural evolution given the metagame factors present. This isn't meant to be a defense of Pao lol.]
People propose banning Garganacl because of unhealthy effects in the teambuilder and whatnot, which is fair. However, Garg being able to select its Tera type makes it able to check essentially the entire tier depending on what the team needs — remove that aspect and I think you make prep even harder, not easier. Yes, I know this sounds like "broken-checks-broken" mentality, but when the people voted to keep Tera, that's (in a very literal sense) what they were consenting to, so like it or not, we have to tier with it in mind. This is actually why I voted Volcarona as more deserving of a ban than Garganacl — Volc is not as "busted" as Garg in a conventional sense, but (since the Chien-Pao ban) its impacts on the tier are almost purely negative. I still doubt a Volc ban would fix anything, but it probably wouldn't make anything worse.
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Addendum: Admittedly, this writeup does neglect to mention how matchup-fishy Garg can be as well; Vert mentions Curse Water Garg sweeps which definitely feel like they fall into that camp, especially since Block is a genuine threat at the moment rather than just a weird niche lure. A realization of my "aggressive quickbans" proposal would obviously have Garg included in the first wave, even if my vote of 3 isn't exactly "quickban tier"; I voted 3 under the current ban philosophy rather than the exceptional circumstance I proposed. If broad tiering strategy reconsideration is on the table, then I would vote a 5 on both Garg and Volc, and probably place Shed Tail somewhere from 3 to 5 after a lot of internal debate.
Also, on reflection, my phrasing sounded a tad harsh on the council here, but that was not at all my intention. Let me be clear: I genuinely think they've done a very good job with the (miserable) cards they've been dealt. I can confess that actually implementing either of the options I outline would obviously be wildly unpopular. When council said they wouldn't resuspect Tera until after HOME, that commitment made sense at the time (hell, an immediate resuspect would've made it seem like they were just trying to repeatedly suspect it until it finally got restricted — double jeopardy laws exist for a reason, after all). When council said they'd be shifting from quickbans to suspects, that commitment also made sense at the time (and though an exception was made for Espa, I doubt anyone's crying over demon bird getting special treatment given community consensus). I just wanted to put this opinion out there to at least get people thinking about what the consequence of continuing to feed the hydra while cutting off its heads one-by-one.
That all isn't to say that this isn't a serious proposal — these are my genuine thoughts — I just can see the obvious regarding the viability of said strategy. Smogon is based on a mixture of meritocratic leadership and semi-democratic proceduralism, after all, and it would probably be worse in the long term to go against those established processes by sidestepping the suspect process via continued quickbans or resuspecting Tera too quickly. And at the end of the day, I'm just some roomchat random who watches high level games while only really participating in ladder; it's oft said that players are good at identifying problems but not so good at fixing them, so radical solutions like this should absolutely be taken with a grain of salt when their consequences are potentially dire.
Alas, even if solutions aren't viable, the problem still exists, and I think we shouldn't neglect it from our conversations. Yes, it's annoying to hear people continue complaining about Tera months after its suspect ended when another suspect in the future is all-but-confirmed, but IMO it's better to be annoyed than complacent, lest we get a repeat of BW. (In fact, I would argue BW is an example of a metagame where players realized the one-by-one approach to fixing the tier wouldn't work, as evidenced by Keldeo's failed suspects... and though at the time I would've voted ban on Keld, in hindsight it does seem like the no-ban vote has been vindicated. That said, there's obviously a ton of differences between the metagames, so I don't want to hammer this point too much, since the comparison does collapse if you try to extend it beyond a broad philosophic parallelism.)
So interestingly I did vote 5 for Shed Tail because I think the move mechanic itself opens up a lot of problematic scenarios, do I think it's broken eh probably not. Could I live with it? yeah as long as Cyclizar doesn't come back, I agree Orthoworm is manageable but idk Shed Tail has never sat right with me. I think a suspect test would be ideal but I wouldn't be hellbent on going for an outright ban of the move, I'm very open to keeping it but I think we just have to stir discussion regarding it.
On the Volc stuff is it broken in the current landscape right now? like I said previously, yeah most likely. Lets say it went Ubers, it would come right back down to OU and probably stay in OU because of Heatran coming back in the mix. All 3 things I think all have the potential of a suspect test and if I had prioritize it I'd go Garg first, Volc 2nd, Shed Tail 3rd.
On the Volc stuff is it broken in the current landscape right now? like I said previously, yeah most likely. Lets say it went Ubers, it would come right back down to OU and probably stay in OU because of Heatran coming back in the mix. All 3 things I think all have the potential of a suspect test and if I had prioritize it I'd go Garg first, Volc 2nd, Shed Tail 3rd.
so pao is fine, ape is fine, palafin and bundle are fine, but lando-t is where you draw the line?
considering your track record, i'm honestly tempted to switch to a pro-ban stance on volc
You do you mr.blue
I wasn't suggesting it lol, I was saying if anything could be unbanned then it's MAYBE Annihilape, even then I doubt it should be.
I'd like to give some positive feedback regarding the OU Council's intention making the Tiering Surveys and Tiering Actions more frequent.
I think with SPL going on and Ladder adapting itself through what's played in tournaments, it's a good thing we can express our thoughts about the metagame more frequently.
Having our thoughts stuck for 2-3 months regarding the nexts Tiering Surveys or Suspect Tests didn't feel correct, even frustrating at times.
All this for the sake of "The metagame has to stabilize".
Years ago, Dracovish remained in the SS OU metagame for a stupid amount of time compared to what negative influence it had on it.
I'm grateful toward this change and hope it'll last long until the metagame feels more competitive and enjoyable to the playerbase.
I think with SPL going on and Ladder adapting itself through what's played in tournaments, it's a good thing we can express our thoughts about the metagame more frequently.
Having our thoughts stuck for 2-3 months regarding the nexts Tiering Surveys or Suspect Tests didn't feel correct, even frustrating at times.
All this for the sake of "The metagame has to stabilize".
Years ago, Dracovish remained in the SS OU metagame for a stupid amount of time compared to what negative influence it had on it.
I'm grateful toward this change and hope it'll last long until the metagame feels more competitive and enjoyable to the playerbase.
If Shed Tail ends up being actioned, would you want to see Cyclizar unbanned/retested? I think it was pretty widely agreed that Shed Tail was the main reason it was banned alongside its other tools like high speed and great utility options, so if it was to come back after a Shed Tail suspect would it still remain OU?
If Shed Tail is deemed broken, Cyclizar for sure comes back to OU, even though such a Mon is undesirable for me to have un the meta despite mostly being bad.
Even without my bias to Cyclizar I don't think Shed Tail is broken on Orthworm, there are multiple ways of stopping it or the reveiver.
Cyclizar would be pretty interesting :
Being the only Rapid Spinner with Regenerator, packing Knock Off, U-Turn and a bunch of valuable coverage moves such as Overheat, Thunderbolt and Aqua Tail would for sure make it a viable Assault Vest user.
Also, the Normal / Dragon typing on a Regenerator Pokemon adds a lot of synergy defensively, being able to come in Gholdengo's Shadow Ball and invalidating Gholdengo's Status moves if it Tricks Cyclizar's Assault Vest.
Cyclizar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: ?
EVs: 64 HP / 128 SpA / 252 SpD / 64 Spe
Calm Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Overheat
- Draco Meteor / Aqua Tail / Thunderbolt
This spread would ensure Cyclizar not being KO'ed by Gholdengo's Make It Rain at +2 Spa (Max Spa) :
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 64 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 250-295 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also, it allows it to survive one Choice Specs Gholdengo's Focus Blast at full :
252 SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 64 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 250-296 (84.1 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In return, Cyclizar can outspeed it with 64 EVs Speed investments, and threaten it with Knock Off or Overheat.
Being the only Rapid Spinner with Regenerator, packing Knock Off, U-Turn and a bunch of valuable coverage moves such as Overheat, Thunderbolt and Aqua Tail would for sure make it a viable Assault Vest user.
Also, the Normal / Dragon typing on a Regenerator Pokemon adds a lot of synergy defensively, being able to come in Gholdengo's Shadow Ball and invalidating Gholdengo's Status moves if it Tricks Cyclizar's Assault Vest.
Cyclizar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: ?
EVs: 64 HP / 128 SpA / 252 SpD / 64 Spe
Calm Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Overheat
- Draco Meteor / Aqua Tail / Thunderbolt
This spread would ensure Cyclizar not being KO'ed by Gholdengo's Make It Rain at +2 Spa (Max Spa) :
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 64 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 250-295 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also, it allows it to survive one Choice Specs Gholdengo's Focus Blast at full :
252 SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 64 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 250-296 (84.1 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In return, Cyclizar can outspeed it with 64 EVs Speed investments, and threaten it with Knock Off or Overheat.
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Garganacl: 2. Maybe I'm just an old fart who remembers when Burn was 1/8 per turn, but Salt Cure doesn't strike me as terribly problematic, and Garg either has a terrible defensive typing or requires committing a team's tera. What concern I have is more along the lines of its fantastic bulk and immunity to status.
Volcarona: 2. Mostly because I don't really mind mons being a bit matchup fishy.
Shed Tail: 5. Get rid of this move, it's too good at enabling sweepers. Espathra wasn't regarded as a problem between the Cyclizar ban and the discovery of effective Orthworm usage, and I do not doubt that another setup sweeper will prove similarly problematic in the future.
Volcarona: 2. Mostly because I don't really mind mons being a bit matchup fishy.
Shed Tail: 5. Get rid of this move, it's too good at enabling sweepers. Espathra wasn't regarded as a problem between the Cyclizar ban and the discovery of effective Orthworm usage, and I do not doubt that another setup sweeper will prove similarly problematic in the future.
So your argument against Shed Tail is purely and entirely hypothetical. Cool
In practice, nothing that wants a Shed Tail passed to it is bulky enough to take more than one unresisted STAB move outside of screens.
Infiltrator Dragapult has only risen in viability post Pao being banned and is the premier offensive counter to these teams.
Skeledirge is also an extremely spammable defensive counter that can rob HO of momentum in seconds.
Both of these Pokemon are premier mons in the tier regardless of whether they go up against HO or not.
Regenerator was the real problem.
In practice, nothing that wants a Shed Tail passed to it is bulky enough to take more than one unresisted STAB move outside of screens.
Infiltrator Dragapult has only risen in viability post Pao being banned and is the premier offensive counter to these teams.
Skeledirge is also an extremely spammable defensive counter that can rob HO of momentum in seconds.
Both of these Pokemon are premier mons in the tier regardless of whether they go up against HO or not.
Regenerator was the real problem.
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So you think that the QD+Will-O-Wisp defensive set is the most broken? Because Offensive Volc could obviously just run Tera Ground to deal with Heatran (unless the latter starts running Tera Flying, and 110% it will), and run Giga Drain/Flamethrower on its 2 other slots just like it does right now.
Yoo Tera Bug Heatran anybody?
Ngl Bug is a v good Tera typing cf Ceruledge
Keep in mind that Tera Bug is so good cause we ain't got no good offensive Flying types right now tho, you'll soon start seeing a lot more Zapdos, Zapdos-G, Moltres, Tornadus, hell maybe even Tera flying Lando.
The world still isn't ready
On a more serious note, I think Tera will make Heatran a much worse counterplay to Volc, not only due to Tera Blast Ground, but also bulkier sets having the option of Tera Poison (if Toxic regains distribution) or Tera Ghost to escape Magma Storm altogether.
Yes yes 100% yes on shed tail that needs to be suspected. 100% my thoughts and I wholeheartedly agree. Although I would get garg suspected as having to run covert cloak to beat it on a lot of mons or being powerful enough to beat garg outright is just kinda metawarping in a sense.
I don't have a problem with volc but I think they should keep an eye on it in case it does get out of hand so I put it at 3, it has the most counterplay out of all of them.
Garga gets a 6 for me, its been a looooooong time, a long time coming, but I knooooooow, a change's gonna come, oh yes it will
Volcarona gets a 3 for me, It has swept me from turn 1 to turn 100 to never even becoming an issue, its the fucking matchup moth for a reason, tera is just another layer to an already a monster size lasagna, nothing new to be honest
Shed tail gets a 5 for me, I think its time for it to go, imagine a Double Dance Magearna behind a sub, and your ting lu cannot whirlwind against her because she gave him a kiss, and now he died of too much female interaction, and that's just 1 example
Volcarona gets a 3 for me, It has swept me from turn 1 to turn 100 to never even becoming an issue, its the fucking matchup moth for a reason, tera is just another layer to an already a monster size lasagna, nothing new to be honest
Shed tail gets a 5 for me, I think its time for it to go, imagine a Double Dance Magearna behind a sub, and your ting lu cannot whirlwind against her because she gave him a kiss, and now he died of too much female interaction, and that's just 1 example
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I love how every last one of these Shed Tail posts is based on purely hypothetical reasoning.
Magearna has been established as problematic even before the existence of Shed Tail. This example is entirely in bad faith.
The game is evolving.
Magearna has been established as problematic even before the existence of Shed Tail. This example is entirely in bad faith.
The game is evolving.
Okay, this is true and fair, magearna is always broken
but I don't know about this part, do you think there are hypotheticals when Orthworm is literally a thing, sure you may say that espatra was broken without it or even just cheese, but people are finding ways to just slap it, 1 mistake and unless your running ting lu or fucking whirwind on Iron moth, idk what to say about it
It's been barely a fortnight since Pao left and almost every viable team has a counter to this.
Infiltrator Dragapult - only better after Pao ban, S rank candidate
Unaware Dondozo - HO cannot afford to fit Choice locked mons that beat this
Ting-Lu - this Pokemon is guaranteed to always live a hit and phaze
Unaware Clodsire - self explanatory
Literally any special attacker that can chunk Orthworm
And finally, most certainly not the least, Big Dirge.
1)Kills momentum with Unaware
2)Teras to flip it's few checks on HO
3)Sets up while attacking through substitute
I'm mentioning specific Pokemon since most of you are giving specific examples as well.
Infiltrator Dragapult - only better after Pao ban, S rank candidate
Unaware Dondozo - HO cannot afford to fit Choice locked mons that beat this
Ting-Lu - this Pokemon is guaranteed to always live a hit and phaze
Unaware Clodsire - self explanatory
Literally any special attacker that can chunk Orthworm
And finally, most certainly not the least, Big Dirge.
1)Kills momentum with Unaware
2)Teras to flip it's few checks on HO
3)Sets up while attacking through substitute
I'm mentioning specific Pokemon since most of you are giving specific examples as well.
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I don't think it's the most broken but it's the set I've been seeing the most (QD + Wisp), yes I have seen Tera Ground Volc which can be a scary mon for certain opposing walls it sees switching in like Toxapex. Yeah Heatran will just run opposing teras like flying which will still allow it to deal better against Volc. Since Gen 5, Volc has been going against Heatran, this is the first time (Gen 9) where there isn't a OU mon like Heatran (Flash Fire with good typing) that naturally walls Volc excluding HP Ground / Tera Ground techs. This is why Volc has been pretty uncomfortable to deal with in the current meta.
*cough cough points at tera cough cough*
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