Just keep an eye on it, and keep it on the surveys when home drops. I am sure that with surveys that run longer we could see more people who want it gone
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
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Just keep an eye on it, and keep it on the surveys when home drops. I am sure that with surveys that run longer we could see more people who want it gone
Dont really think Shed Tail is an issue. Conceptually like Revival Blessing on paper it would seem like it breaks games but doesnt feel like the case in most games i’ve played or seen. Pult being a staple also deters it along with just good positioning. Obviously if you’re running some do nothing team or something dunked on by roaring moon it can feel annoying, but that’s another issue entirely.
There have been Spl games using shed tail recently that dont break the game, in which those teams got worse once espathra was banned. Games that are lost to Shed tail is normally games lost to specific threats and not move itself. A fish implies it’s great to begin with, and those teams feel much worse or have not been totally optimized to deem it broken. Unhealthy is extremely loose term, I think Garg is way more unhealthy than most of the stuff proposed as being ban worthy recently but the justification that Cloak on random mons to deter salt cure is okay feels like yelling into the void.
Praying that the king of salt is gone forever
This is my thought exactly, I think Nacl needs to be looked at purely for changing the meta and having Water Curse sets beat Gholdengo even if it has Covert Cloak.
I did vote a high score on Shed Tail, but I only voted it because I think it needs to be looked at, I don't know if needs a ban because it is super manageable.
Like realistically if all 3 were to get suspected voted right now
Nacl - Ban (and I'm still very 50/50 on this). The only reason I say this is when you look at the recently banned mons it doesn't compare on terms of straight up brokenness
Volc - Do not ban
Shed Tail - Do not ban
If one mon only needs one free boost then the issue isn't shed tail, it either is the mon itself or the team being weak to that mon because even if you remove shed tail from the ecuation that mon simply could use screens, memento or even something like a well timed trick to get that free turn and still sweep the same teams. That is why Cyclizar and Espartha got banned instead of shed tail, the first could pass a sub to multiple set up sweepers at the same match unless you had something that could stop Cyclizar on the field the whole match so that was much harder to deal with and not all team archetypes could afford it, while the birb could do what it does even without shed tail.
After Espharta's ban I really don't see any Pokémon that can potentially beat most teams with a turn 2-3 shed tail with the right tera. Yeah, it still can happen but the tools to avoid it are there and aren't that limited.
I wonder how low is cyclizar is going to drop if shed tail gets banned.
do you think that it will go to UU or will go all the way down to NU?
it's only niche in OU is that it has access to knock off u-turn and rapid spin at once,(although its defences are so trash that it would be lucky to use 2 of those moves).
do you think that it will go to UU or will go all the way down to NU?
it's only niche in OU is that it has access to knock off u-turn and rapid spin at once,(although its defences are so trash that it would be lucky to use 2 of those moves).
UU at the lowest and likely around A rank at that. Without Shed Tail Cyclizar still has 121 Speed, Rapid Spin, Knock Off, Taunt, U-Turn, Regenerator, Dragon Tail, and wide coverage. This guy just does so much for one Pokemon. Grafaiai is similar in design (and A- in viability) and Cyclizar is able to separate itself by being faster and having Regenerator and Rapid Spin even with it missing out on Toxic and Prankster.
Bike is good
I did put 4 on shed tail and 5 on garg since garg is a little too restrictive right now. I do believe a shed suspect is probably something that should happen but honestly it can wait for home. Home is probably gonna be here very soon anyway...
I had a ton of success with Draco Meteor and Overheat giving perfect coverage and chunking everything really hard. Sometimes it did a ton of work without Shed Tail entirely which is why I'm still a little bit sore on the ban. Combine that with its utility and the fact it doesn't need to invest much in speed, and it'll be a pretty workable revenge killer/pivot in whatever tier it ends up in, but definitely not OU. It's too hard to say exactly how HOME will shake up the lower tiers but it'll be viable somewhere.
It's a really fun Pokemon to use and being a Normal gives it a few really cool niches, even in OU. It could switch into Shadow Balls/Tricks from Gholdengo and threaten a KO with Overheat.
I can see Shed Tail potentially becoming an issue when Home drops and we get new abusers that synergize with Grimmsnarl Screens, but like people have said the culprits are probably going to be things already banworthy like Lando-I (very random example). Revival Blessing will assuredly pop up again as an issue, too. Has anyone tried RB with Volcanora btw.
But this is all "what ifs" and "the future" so we should just wait and see.
But this is all "what ifs" and "the future" so we should just wait and see.
Screens+shed tail+tera+revival blessing Magearna
Personally, I think that RB is kinda bad, yeah, you can get away with letting one mon die early and then bringing it back later but it seems like the less consistent of the gimmicks for me, especially because you have to kill your own momentum to use it, while your opponent can react quickly enough or take advantage of it. Theoretically it provides a great positioning by relieving the loses on trades or risky plays but in practice it could went wrong and potentially never get to use it or something even worse, become a set up fodder while you are forced to use it and then losing for it. Quick example: you get Pawmot in front Tusk because it is your only chance to use RB at that point, Tusk uses rapid spin and then outspeeds the rest of your team.
Unironically, it would be amazing if it worked like healing wish and killed the user since it will give a lot of momentum.
When it was on the radar, it was because of the interaction with rage fist making Ape even stronger, but after Ape got banned it doesn't really have a solid synergy with anything else.
before it was banned i ran scarf cycle for this exact reason. no one wanted to let you get a shed tail off for free, so you surprise ohko’d SO many pults, paos, etc. a fast dragon w good utility moves, coverage, and regen will be useful even without shed tail.
Honestly, I'm in favor of a Shed Tail ban just so I can use Cyclizar in OU again. It's so fast and crams so much utility into its moveset, and Regenerator lets it keep coming back in to do it. I don't care about Shed Tail much when I can use it to put Rapid Spin, Knock Off, Taunt, and a cheeky Draco Meteor all in one 375 Speed package.
Hello everyone; I'd be particularly interested in hearing your thoughts on Garganacl. Its effects on the OU metagame are fairly non-linear, which makes it a Pokemon that's less of an obviously oppressive entity in the metagame in comparison to past suspects. Because of this, there is much to be discussed.
If you'd like some place to start, try to answer some or all of the following:
1: What placement did you vote Garganacl in the latest tiering survey? Why?
2: What forms of defensive counterplay do you feel exist for it? How about offensive counterplay?
3: What Pokemon does Garganacl pair well with? How easily can it find itself on teams?
4: What are Garganacl's strongest Tera types in your opinion?
5: What sets do you feel are the strongest/most oppressive on Garganacl? Why?
6: What sets do you feel shouldn't really be considered as much? Why?
7: How pressing do you feel it is for Garganacl to be prioritized as an OU suspect in comparison to Shed Tail or Volcarona?
I'll add my thoughts to the fray later this weekend!
If you'd like some place to start, try to answer some or all of the following:
1: What placement did you vote Garganacl in the latest tiering survey? Why?
2: What forms of defensive counterplay do you feel exist for it? How about offensive counterplay?
3: What Pokemon does Garganacl pair well with? How easily can it find itself on teams?
4: What are Garganacl's strongest Tera types in your opinion?
5: What sets do you feel are the strongest/most oppressive on Garganacl? Why?
6: What sets do you feel shouldn't really be considered as much? Why?
7: How pressing do you feel it is for Garganacl to be prioritized as an OU suspect in comparison to Shed Tail or Volcarona?
I'll add my thoughts to the fray later this weekend!
I believe I voted 4 or 5 on garg as it feels like salt cure being oppressive enough to force mons into running cloak when they wouldn't want and the lack of ways for more passive teams to cripple it is really telling. I also voted 4 or 5 on shed because I believe it is something that should get looked into even if it doesn't happen right now, because shed is just a massive matchup fish (Even moreso than volc.) that when pulled off can be insanely broken, and can either lead to easy sweeps or swing a game back into your favor. Yes, on orth its inconsistent, but I believe the strategy is kinda broken and should be looked at.
But I guess if I were to only suspect one, I would keep shed tail on the radar for when home comes out after the next tera suspect and deal with garg.
Also volc isn't really broken even if it does often teeter because it does have quite a bit of counterplay and is still the same matchup moth as always.
Oh Boy, Its Ausm-about time to ban Garga, and I need to lead the charge against this thing (sorry for the bad pun pls dont ban me)
1: 6, the answer is in its immortality and its ability to play offense while on defense, and defense while on offense, all thanks to Salt Cure and its tinsy tiny adjustments like EQ, Curse, teras, etc.
2: Defensive counterplay is literally put on covert cloak and hope the garganacl user is not paired with stuff like Meowscarada, Great Tusk and Iron Valiant, you know, common meta defining staples, oh and hope its not the tera ghost block set, or you'll be trapped. As for offensive counterplay, is use a tera on a mon that has a move that can hit it and its not weak to Salt Cure and Rock, this basically means Grass, Ground and Fighting types, and hope the garga user does not pack stuff like tera fairy or tera ghost. Counter play in general revolves around keeping momentum against it while not fighting it directly, this contradiction of ideas result in stuff like sub skele, sub pult, infestation pex, opposing garga, grass knot gren, meowscarada. Etc
3: Literally any Knock Off user, while on SPL people didn't use it like at all due to the fact that SPL people are living in 2 metas in the future, on a normal game on the ladder you'll see it on stall, fat balance, balance and Bulky Offense, IMO Iron Valiant and Slowking are its 2 best partners for the amount of offensive/defensive flexibility you get
4: Literally anything with Salt Cure, because Salt Cure is the thing that is making this shit broken, and its ability to not get status also is a plus that nobody remembers
5: I guess the rocker set is the least oppressive because it has no wincon included, but It's still a massive pain in the ass to deal with, believe me, I have used it a lot
6: IMO max, but I'm biased, I guess Shed Tail can go first, but I can answer objectively
Honestly, tera really helps it, it allows him to get away from potentiall counters with the free card while adquiring a better deffensive typing, tera water and tera steel also become bad when he is in the battle because you now lose to him. But at least you can tera out of a rock weakness and receive minimal damage, but Grass, Ground and Fighting are offensive types, not defensive, therefore, it becomes easy for the rest to abuse you
1. I gave Garg a 3 myself. It's got a pretty heavy-handed presence in the metagame right now, and the counterplay to it is getting a little specific, but it's not like Covert Cloak doesn't have uses outside of blocking Salt Cure. Could go either way to me. A meta with or without Garg is fine.
2. Honestly, really hardcore stall teams beat Garg easy. Switching out over and over to exhaust Salt Cure's PP is pretty doable, and any of the three Unaware mons can stop Iron Defense/Body Press. Amoonguss and anything behind a Substitute can give it hell. As for offensive counterplay, Garg is super reliant on Tera to cover up Rock's bad weaknesses, so pressuring the opponent to Tera something else leaves it vulnerable to common threats like Great Tusk. Otherwise, Gholdengo being able to OHKO it from full with Make It Rain whether it's Tera Fairy or still Rock is nice.
3: Garg has absolutely no business on any faster paced teams, since its tools are very strong but it generally needs one turn to get going, whether that's to use Iron Defense, Salt Cure, Block, what have you. I think it's best on balance teams that have one fast revenge killer option, like Specs Greninja or Band Meowscarada, that can threaten whatever tries to come in to deal with it.
4: Tera Fairy is the popular choice for a reason, but I like Tera Ghost the most myself. Only one weakness in Dark, Fighting immunity, Gholdengo can't take you out with Make It Rain anymore, and now Garg can spinblock.
5: Iron Defense/Body Press is probably the most broadly useful. Block is a meme but surprisingly strong if you can trap something that Garg can wait out.
6: Garg isn't much for being a Stealth Rock setter, I feel. It's got better things to do, and it's something that wants to stay in rather than keep coming in.
7: Less important than Shed Tail, but more important than Volcarona. I'd personally do them in the order of Shed Tail > Garg > Volc.
1. If I remember correctly I voted either 3 or 4 on Garg (pretty sure it was 4). I agree pretty much on everything that AndViet has already pointed out several times on this thread; Garg has been warping the meta around it for a while now, considering how strong of a move Salt Cure is. While Covert Cloak does prevent your mons from getting damaged, many teams have started running multiple Knock Offers that can get rid of it, mainly Tusk and Meowscarada (although physical Valiant with Knock has also started appearing more).
2. The best defensive counterplay for Salt Cure is Cloak, as everyone knows, but while it is an amazing item overall I'd definitely enjoy having a more flexible response to Garg that is not fixed on a specific item. I love Tera Flying Bulky Gholdengo, but I cannot run HDB because I obviously want a reliable answer to Garg with Cloak. On the other hand, I don't really believe there's much offensive counterplay to it, and the reason is mainly Tera. You'll never know 100% what set Garg is running, so while you could technically 2HKO it with a strong supereffective move (ground, grass, water) there will always be the chance for it to Tera into a different typing and tank your moves easily. And since the asshole has Purifying Salt as an ability, you can't even Toxic it or put it to sleep.
3. Literally any Knock Off user, and it pairs incredibly well with them. It's a very splashable mon that offers a lot of support in most teams, and thanks to Tera its defensive capabilities are maximised.
4. Definitely Tera Water (walls Gholdengo, Skeledirge, Kingambit, Scizor, Ceruledge, Gren and many others) and Tera Fairy (walls primarily Tusk, Dragapult and Roaring Moon, and any other Dragon type really, and offers a lot of helpful neutralities). I've also seen Tera Ground and Tera Flying around, and they're also very good to respectively boost its EQs and counter Tusk's STABs.
5. Garg only needs one thing to be oppressive: Salt Cure. You can't really go wrong as long as you run that move; you can use a Curse+EQ set, Stealth Rock for support, Protect and Recover for extra chip damage and to stall your opponent, or BP+Iron Defense to be an unkillable physical wall. Literally anything (with a dose of common sense) and it'll still be good.
6. Sets that don't run Salt Cure for whatever reason.
7. Compared to the other two it is definitely the most problematic IMO, and deserves to be suspected before them for sure.
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Isn't it better to use either dragapult if you want a fast specially offensive dragon type?
It may not have overheat but it has got higher special attack.
Is its access to knock off and rapid spin reeeeeally that worth enough for a slot on your team?
Even hydreigon seems like a better choice despite being slower.
It's absolutely worth it. Cyclizar isn't an attacking mon. It's a really fast skill monkey that fits Rapid Spin, Taunt, Knock Off, Dragon Tail , U-Turn, and even Thief into its move list. Draco Meteor and Overheat are surprise nukes because Cyclizar can lure in mons that want to take it out and are expecting it to just be passive. Plus, the stat drops don't matter to it since Cyclizar wants to be constantly switching out and back in.
1. didn't get to vote since i forgot but i would have voted a 4 if i did. it's very easy for garganacl to snowball out of control thanks to salt cure racking up passive damage and its wide variety of viable tera types and ways it can sweep, from ID sets to curse sets. it has counterplay in this meta thanks to covert cloak usage rising and more of the meta teching substitute to beat it 1v1, to speak nothing of shed tail HO, all of which are really harmful to its viability. ultimately, however, i think it's a problem, just not something unbeatable like it was prior
2. if you don't have CC or substitute then there is no defensive counterplay. there are some offensive checks to it, some are dependent on garganacl's tera type and others are more consistent in beating garganacl. i find meowscarada, gholdengo and iron valiant to be the most consistent offensive answers to it, especially the latter
3. i slot it onto most of my teams rather easily due to its defensive utility and variety in sets. whenever my team needs a stealth rock setter or a bulky setup sweeper i usually slot it on without much thought due to how reliable it is in each of its roles. i tend to pair it with garchomp (scarfed or mixed) for offensive spikes support so that it can either form a potent hazard stacking core with garganacl or so that it can help break down teams so that garganacl can sweep more efficiently. aside from that, though, i don't have any particular pokemon i tend to pair garg with
4. water, fairy and ghost, in that exact order
5. most oppressive is definitely ID, with curse as a close second. as splashable as the stealth rock set is on most teams, it's definitely the least problematic of garganacl's sets, unless it's using block to beat specific mons 1v1. the two setup sets, however, are definitely suffocating when left unchecked
6. as i mentioned above, the stealth rock set is not at all that problematic, at least not to the degree its other sets are
7. i think volcarona is the biggest threat right now but garganacl is a very close second. shed tail could be looked into but it isn't nearly as pressing as garganacl is, let alone volcarona
What about cyclizar's frailty?
How many of those moves is it going to use before it gets OHKO by nearly anything that isn't a ghost-type move?
Aren't you worried that you will essentially be playing with one less pekemon on the team?
Meowscarada outclasses as a knock off+u-turn user.
Iron treads and great tusk out class it as rapid-spin+ knock off users and quaquaval outclasdes it as u-turn+rapid spin user.
Why you ever use a pokemon with this much competition?
I enjoy using vivillon too but I am not acting as if it is an underrated ou threat just because it can both put opponents to sleep and keep spamming stab hurricanes.
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