I've seen a lot of stuff about wake, but what about leaves? What common sets are run?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
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Tbh I ran Dondozo A LOT during this gen and I want to have a say in this. If you are not running curse, def is 100% the option, however, if you manage to get 2 curses up your spd makes you far too weak to anything special, which is why it's way more viable specially when more offensive iron moth sets were appearing. Also great for volc giga drain, and many others. It doesn't need more defense, it needs a reliable way to survive special attacks which is what max spd and spd nature with max hp sets exist for, and why these are probably the most reliable. It used max def more during chien pao era, but after it's ban it's better to use the good old spd sets.
ok this might be an oversimplification but is walking wake just chi-yu 2? it's a different type, but it's definitely got the same "sun goes up, your team goes down" energy. with the proto boost, its spa is only a little bit lower than what chi-yu's effectively was. it's also faster, bulkier, and has a better defensive typing plus actual special coverage. are we really going to have this discussion a second time?
The Mon isn't that great rn because the 4/5 walls present in the tier it broke are no longer appearing, a great partner to wake tho since it gets rid of the spd walls that would normally counter him
I need to play the tier more before I can have a full written opinion on wake, specially because it's only overpowered by weathers in my opinion. Without such boosts it's typing is only good defensively as there are reliable walls for it, and it's abulity is useless outside of it too, but agility sets are the thing that worry me rn because not being able to threaten with a revenge kill from anything just seems too broken
rain + wake is garbage. Use it with sun (or not rain). Ninja is better in rain.
It's not only "a little bit lower" and that is if sun is up and it is using special attack boosting Proto, which it is reliant on to attain a power level that could be considered comparable to Chi-Yu.
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 217-256 (30.3 - 35.8%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 235-277 (32.9 - 38.7%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 264-312 (36.9 - 43.6%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 382-450 (53.5 - 63%)
It's strong but let's not grossly overstate its fire power please.
The big difference is that Chi-Yu didn't *need* sun to function, and Sun made it completely unwallable. Walking Wake needs a +SpA Protosynthesis boost from Sun to reach something like Chi Yu's power level outside of Sun, and its Draco Meteor doesn't get the extra Sun Boost on top of it, the way Chi Yu's Overheat did.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 478-564 (118.6 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 718-846 (178.1 - 209.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 958-1128 (237.7 - 279.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs
252+ SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 339-400 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 441-520 (109.4 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Tera Dragon Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 588-694 (145.9 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The way the multiplicatives work, Scarf Chi-Yu is more powerful than Specs Walking Wake in Sun (and barely weaker outside of sun). As folks said with Chien-Pao, a mon doesn't need to be as broken as Chi-Yu to be worth looking at for a ban, but it's not an inconsiderable step down.
edit: dang, Talpr0ne, way to beat me to the punch :)
At this point, are we expecting home next month or is it because the DLC is announced that it would be in the fall?
The video yesterday still said early 2023 for HOME support during the GO section.
that is true, it does need sun to function and chi-yu could operate fine without it, and that makes it significantly less broken than chi-yu, i will admit. but i don't think it's unreasonable to compare the two when sun support is factored in. wake, to me, seems intolerable under sun, especially since opposing rain teams (which usually shut down sun teams) don't even deal with it properly because it runs water stab and hurricane.
incidentally, why is everyone running spdef blissey now? i was under the impression that it needs the physical investment a lot more than it needs extra special bulk
The date changed from Spring 2023 to Early 2023, which now means anytime from January to June. Clearly the date got pushed back to late spring
Leaves struggles from having relatively weak STABs, a truly balls typing, and only so much speed to take advantage of. Sure it has high Attack and fair bulk, but it's also 4x weak to U-Turn and stopped pretty hard by all Moon, Meow, Ghold, Dirge, Gambit, Corv, etc.
Admittedly, I haven't tried Leaves yet (I've been too busy spamming Wake), but I guess this thing could run an Expert Belt set with either four attacks or SD to take advantage of its solid coverage, but to be fair I haven't even seen this 'mon on the ladder so I'm not sure what to think.
Nope, way different animal, best way to look at it is Chi-Yu breaks through Blissey, Walking Wake cannot break through Blissey (Unless you go with the DD set). That's the simple way to look at it, the greatest special defensive wall in Pokémon history was getting beaten up by nemo.
Zoroark-Hisui @ Choice Specs
Ability: Illusion
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bitter Malice
- Flamethrower
- Hyper Voice
- Focus Blast
Walking Wake @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Steam
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Tera Blast
I've been running a double Choice core of Hisuian-Zoroark and Walking Wake on my Sun team, and it's been doing marvelously! Walking Wake's max Speed with Timid is 348, while with full SpA investment and a neutral nature, its Special Attack is 349. This means that under Sun, Walking Wake gets its Special Attack boosted instead of its Speed, thanks to it being just one point higher. Combined with Choice Scarf, it's outspeeding just about everything while still hitting like a truck. Tera Blast with Fairy is a wonderful lure for Pokemon like Dragapult, Greninja, and more troublesome threats.
Hisuian-Zoroark has been allowing me to play so many mind games in the meta that it's astounding - I cannot believe some people were saying on Showdown that it's RU material (it really isn't). It has two very spammable STAB moves (Bitter Malice's 100% Attack Drop comes in serious clutch sometimes, while Hyper Voice is strong as hell and ignores Substitute). 350 Speed with Timid + Choice Specs launching its power to hyperbolic levels? It's a dream come true, especially with its amazing triple immunity to Normal, Fighting, and Ghost type attacks!
Both mons have great coverage, and between the two of them, along with Stealth Rock + Rapid Spin support from Great Tusk + Torkoal, it's probably the most fun duo I've used in OU in a LONG time!
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Nope
252+ Atk Protean Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 312-368 (91.2 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 284-336 (83 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
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Walking Wake isn't the completely unreasonable monster that Chi-Yu was, but I think it's worth bringing up that if we're dipping back into Blissey for a special wall that can consistently live against this thing, she's still RU right now. Not that Pokemon can't be balanced out by having oddball counters from a lower tier, but it's that question of "Does this mon/set actually work outside of countering this one guy or would you otherwise never consider it". I'm worried it may be less that Blissey has an occasion to rise in the tiers now, and more that now since the special attacker is just explosively strong instead of hilariously explosively strong, people may give it too much leeway.
gallade has 3 weakneness and only 2 resistances, it is neutral to the rest 13 types.
defensively its type combination is slitly less bad than mono-ice.
it can barely switch to anything.
iron leaf has 6 resistances 7 weaknesses and neutral to 5 types.
I understand that 7 weaknessess are not a good thing but its resistances mean that you can actually bring it in.
my point was that they are both wallbreakers with similar movepools so now gallage has got some competition.
Given that Protosynthesis boosts speed by 50% and other stats by only 30%, I think you'd get a lot more power under Sun with the same speed by dropping a few points from SpA and running Specs instead. This does mean you lose speed outside of sun, mind you.
Gallade actually has pretty great Special Defense, which is how you switch it in.
For me Leaves is more like a set up sweeper/cleaner than a wallbreaker since its moves aren't that powerfull. So instead of Gallade's competition it would be Booster Valiant's, while Gallade's true competition would be Bax.
Yeah, I agree with this. Leaves is pretty much the modern day Exeggcutor, without the ability to throw statuses around and no Chlorophyll. Everything Exeggcutor has as a weak point (minus speed) is pretty much the same as Iron Leaves.
This is why I run this set with that specific H-Zoro Specs partner - they both complement each other and fulfill different team needs.
The Only thing that Annihilape can hurt H-Zoro is Night Slash and Fling:
+1 0 Atk Annihilape Night Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui: 258-304 (102.3 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Iron Ball Annihilape Fling (130 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui: 318-376 (126.1 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With Dark Tera it can OHKO without boosts:
0 Atk Tera Dark Annihilape Night Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui: 258-306 (102.3 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 0 Atk Annihilape Night Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui: 258-304 (102.3 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Iron Ball Annihilape Fling (130 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui: 318-376 (126.1 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With Dark Tera it can OHKO without boosts:
0 Atk Tera Dark Annihilape Night Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui: 258-306 (102.3 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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