DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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Well in terms of usage ...

It debuted at #96 in Oct but by December's list it had dropped down to #122. In January useage increased slightly so it currently sits at #110 but its currently outranked by a fair number of UU pokemon. (I counted at least 18).

Stat wise its interesting as its only good stat is defence.

Whilst it has thick club to double its attack Knock Off is used with far more frequency in UU than it seems to be in OU ...

It's speed is terrible and it hasn't got Ninjask to easily pass it speed.
Of course on a trick room team, or with paralysis support he could be deadly, but then you can make that claim about a lot of pokemon.

Bulky waters (and possibly the bulkiest grass types Meganium and Leafeon -assuming the latter comes down) would be your best counters.

I don't know ... but Marowak certainly appears a better candidate than Flygon for consideration.
 
Lee said:
With Claydol coming down to UU, I'd like to ask if there's any case to be made for Marowak? 60 base HP and 45 speed is only half the story of course, but I'd like to hear some opinions.

I'm thinking BL, but worse things have been discussed!
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Well, UU already has pokemon that if using a choice band can only be beat by prediction. Marowak's item "Thick Club" gives it the power of a choice band with the ability to change it's move. 518-568 attack power is alot and I'm not sure the uu environment would be able handle such a powerhouse.

EDIT:

Regarding, Leafeon moving down to UU, could some people rehash some of the arguments making it lead towards uu again if it's not to much trouble. It's a Swords Dance passer with great speed and physical defense; it can't be phazed with roar/ww unless your faster than it. I don't know if that'd be to much for uu to handle.
 
List of pokemon that are faster than Leafeon and how they might stop it/disrupt it ...

Electrode: HP Ice, Taunt
Swellow: STAB Brave Bird might not kill it but it will hit it hard
Persian: Fake Out + Hypnosis
Purugly: Fake Out + Hypnosis
Jumpluff: Encore, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, U-Turn
Froslass: STAB Ice Beam, destiny bond
Rapidash: STAB Flare Blitz, Will-o-Wisp, Hypnosis.
Scyther: STAB Bug/Flying ... like Swellow not a guarantee but will hit it hard.
Manectric: Hidden Power Ice, Overheat/Flamethrower
Lopunny: Encore
Raichu: Encore, Hidden Power Ice
Ninetales: STAB Flamethrower, Hypnosis, Will-o-Wisp

In testing I found the more defensive Wish Passer more useful than the SD Passer which was too difficult to set up consistantly.
 
Fishin said:
That's the way it is now. If something (Tentacruel) isn't too strong for UU but it's used enough in OU that it would become OU if it were BL currently, it becomes OU.
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So unless you misspoke, anything used enough in OU to make it OU becomes OU. The problem with moving Tentacruel to OU is that it then becomes unusable in UU, which it isn't too powerful for. A person who wants to make an OU team is perfectly able to use lower tier pokemon in his or her team, so why would moving Tentacruel to OU serve any purpose? All that serves to do is to remove Tentacruel from UU, which again there isn't any pressing reason to do (AFAIK).

The only real reason I can see is letting new players know what Tentacruel is good enough for OU use, but I don't think that justifies pulling it from UU.

Again, maybe you misspoke or I am missing something, but thats how I see it.
 
Lee said:
With Claydol coming down to UU, I'd like to ask if there's any case to be made for Marowak? 60 base HP and 45 speed is only half the story of course, but I'd like to hear some opinions.

I'm thinking BL, but worse things have been discussed!
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I say keep it with the BL. To make it devastating, Speed should be passed, but you really don't need it. Marowak can tank soemwhat. It has enough Defenses to do so and has pretty high atk with the Thick Club. It has sky high attack, so yeah, BL. But since it needs that speed to effectivly sweep a team, BL at best. That is my opinion.
 
celestial_okami said:
So unless you misspoke, anything used enough in OU to make it OU becomes OU. The problem with moving Tentacruel to OU is that it then becomes unusable in UU, which it isn't too powerful for. A person who wants to make an OU team is perfectly able to use lower tier pokemon in his or her team, so why would moving Tentacruel to OU serve any purpose? All that serves to do is to remove Tentacruel from UU, which again there isn't any pressing reason to do (AFAIK).

The only real reason I can see is letting new players know what Tentacruel is good enough for OU use, but I don't think that justifies pulling it from UU.

Again, maybe you misspoke or I am missing something, but thats how I see it.
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Your first sentence is indeed correct. If anything is used enough in OU to make it OU it becomes OU. It is strange that Tentacruel isn't too powerful for UU but as long as it's used enough to be considered OU it will be banned from the UU metagame.

People play UU to escape the OU metagame, so allowing an OU pokemon in UU defeats the purpose of even having an UU metagame.
 
Marowak can tank soemwhat
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No, he can't. Which I discovered to my peril when he got OHKO'd by a Life Orb Hitmonlee. 60 HP...that's 261, isn't good enough but both his defences are good.

I don't think anything as situational as knocking his item off is gonna help - Rotom and Banette are OHKO'd.
 
Lee said:
I don't think anything as situational as knocking his item off is gonna help - Rotom and Banette are OHKO'd.
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Shuckle is way better at ruining item holding strategies than Rotom and Banette. Shuckle can Knock Off Marowak's Thick Club, and takes all his hits like a man.
 
evolutia said:
Can you please elaborate on how you "somewhat" used him to tank?
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i guess I'm using the term Tank" loosley. When I say it, I mean he is able to take 3-5 STABed hits that are neutral. Mine has done that before. I guess I really should have explained how I sometimes use the term "Tank". Still, he does have some high Defense.
 
When I say it, I mean he is able to take 3-5 STABed hits that are neutral.
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I don't know what spread you're using, but my Marowak tends to get 2HKO'd by Hippowdon. ~_~

@bologo, I'll go out on a limb and say Shuckle won't like Stone Edge from 568/1132 Atk.
 
Heh, well it depends if Marowak is gonna be using Rock Slide more or Stone Edge. Rock Slide is a 3HKO on physically defensive Shuckle, Swords Danced up is a 2HKO. Stone Edge is a problem though.

The only other Knock Off-er that can take hits well against Marowak in UU is Regigigas if it gets moved down (seemed pretty conclusive). Even then, it needs boatloads of defensive EVs to switch in without getting over 50% taken on. Even then, it really has to watch for Focus Punch/Brick Break.

I dunno, it seems really hard to allow Marowak in UU, since it's even more dangerous than Flygon. If it gets passed any kind of speed, the opposing team is basically completely 2HKOed.

Claydol is something that can take most attacks, but if Marowak is running Double-Edge, even the most physically defensive Claydol is 2HKOed.

Yeah, there's really no safe switch-ins to Marowak in UU.


P.S. I think it's time that we moved some of the obvious choices for UU down from BL. Refer to that list that was being updated, and some of them seem like they were quite obvious choices for recommendations.
 
X-Act said:
Besides the point that you're still acting like a crybaby for stuff that's went to OU because people actually use them (to which I'll answer: of course!), this is a BL/UU thread, not a general thread about tiers. If you don't have anything constructive to say, don't post.
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thats funny how people contradict themselves by tiering pokemon by usage, or effectiveness. for any case since that thread on poliwag i seen it flooded all over shoddy, does he become OU? if you guys are gonna base tiers that way it'll always change, since people never make up their own stuff. in any case, there are a lot of pokemon that got moved to OU just because of their gimmicks. they are not solid pokemon, but yet gimmicks that are more often used now because someone started a trend with that.

electivire is barely used anymore, but do we put him to BL? no, because hes way too overpowered there.

i mean look at this, BL doesnt even have a rapid spinner now. unless we go to UU we're gonna get tossed by residual damage.

:chaos::chaos::chaos::chaos::chaos:
 
KingFresh said:
thats funny how people contradict themselves by tiering pokemon by usage, or effectiveness. for any case since that thread on poliwag i seen it flooded all over shoddy, does he become OU? if you guys are gonna base tiers that way it'll always change, since people never make up their own stuff. in any case, there are a lot of pokemon that got moved to OU just because of their gimmicks. they are not solid pokemon, but yet gimmicks that are more often used now because someone started a trend with that.

electivire is barely used anymore, but do we put him to BL? no, because hes way too overpowered there.

i mean look at this, BL doesnt even have a rapid spinner now. unless we go to UU we're gonna get tossed by residual damage.

:chaos::chaos::chaos::chaos::chaos:
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Okay, seriously, you don't know what you're talking about. Lurk more, and then post. You clearly don't know what OU means. You don't know what BL means. You don't know what UU means. And this is a BL/UU thread, not an OU discussion.

I'll link you here to read about what does each tier represent. READ.
 
Was there ever an agreed cut off point for OU?

It is relavent as things like Froslass, Hitmontop, Clefable, Cradily and Shuckle have been hovering around the top end of the usage tables for a while now, throwing some doubt upon their status as "UU" pokemon.
 
I believe the suggested cutoff was 50 which puts everything you mentioned in safe range but only just.

RE: Marowak
In all fairness anything short of a 2 level speed boost is worthless given how incredibly slow it is and it falls to special attacks even easier than Cloyster.
 
Shiny Oddish said:
Was there ever an agreed cut off point for OU?

It is relavent as things like Froslass, Hitmontop, Clefable, Cradily and Shuckle have been hovering around the top end of the usage tables for a while now, throwing some doubt upon their status as "UU" pokemon.
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Whatever the cut-off point is, there will always be Pokemon hovering around it. The cutoff point is at 75% of the cumulative usages, by the way.
 
sigh i know what a tier is...even smogon's definition of a "tier."

BL should be a metagame, theres tournaments on it, theres match ladders played on it, etc etc. so all these switching around is really annoying, i say this because i play with BL's often and like to play with BL only rules.
 
BL is not a balanced tier, nor is it meant to be. Have fun playing with it, but the intention of BL is not to create a new metagame. The choices of what are BL is decided solely by what is not used enough for OU, yet too powerful for UU. The only balanced tiers are OU and UU. Ubers and BL are faux tiers. They are not created with the intent of a new metagame.
 
Shiny Oddish said:
Which is what exactly, in terms of rank? (Sorry but maths really isn't my thin I'm an arts/literature specialist)
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It depends on the usages, but it's usually around #45 to #55.

KingFresh said:
sigh i know what a tier is...even smogon's definition of a "tier."

BL should be a metagame, theres tournaments on it, theres match ladders played on it, etc etc. so all these switching around is really annoying, i say this because i play with BL's often and like to play with BL only rules.
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Nobody plays with BL only rules. Stop trolling.
 
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